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Transition confusion...drop hands then rotate (Monte) or leave hands up and rotate and then drop (GG)


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#61 Dave D

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 03:12 AM

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

View PostRattlesnakeRon, on 03 July 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Hey glk

Can you clarify what downhill means? Thanks

Jason

I think this is the “downhill move” referenced:


Pretty much.   Happens early in transition.   Arms don’t move much.   Very little rotation.  Torso stiil closed .   Happens pretty much before arms reach parallel.
Blink of an eye.   Move upper and lower center forward a few inches. Just finally getting it and I’ve been at it since February. Used to go too far forward or regain too much hip flexion. Now I focus on my lead shoulder - feel down a bit then separates from chin. I can’t hit it left. Poor wrist and I block it but not too bad. Suri Dtl is really good example of seeing how he keeps his left tilt and his left hip low as he moves slightly lateral while arms slowly start down.  

Then I like t get some where in the ballpark of this delivery position. Been using the left arm off the chest intent.
https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Been working on his single arm release training too.

Absolutely love Suri's move, the way his left shoulder clears from his chin and how his left side works low in transition is just brilliant and something I picture when I swing and strive to achieve. It's no wonder he is doing so well with a swing like that

Edited by Dave D, 04 July 2018 - 03:32 AM.

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#62 iteachgolf

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 07:30 AM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

These downhill drills are nuts. I’m trying to eliminate lunging at the ball from the top. Right?

Define lunging.  The head should move slightly down and forward in transition

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#63 white03

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 07:57 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 04 July 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

These downhill drills are nuts. I'm trying to eliminate lunging at the ball from the top. Right?

Define lunging.  The head should move slightly down and forward in transition

Dan, after that tranisition move of down and forward, what does the head do for the remainder of the downswing?  move backwards to the original position and even behind the original position?

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#64 iteachgolf

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:02 AM

View Postwhite03, on 04 July 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 04 July 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

These downhill drills are nuts. I'm trying to eliminate lunging at the ball from the top. Right?

Define lunging.  The head should move slightly down and forward in transition

Dan, after that tranisition move of down and forward, what does the head do for the remainder of the downswing?  move backwards to the original position and even behind the original position?

Will generally move back slightly from hip high to impact, especially with longer clubs.

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#65 white03

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 08:20 AM

Thanx Dan


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#66 Jasonic

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 09:14 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 04 July 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

These downhill drills are nuts. I’m trying to eliminate lunging at the ball from the top. Right?

Define lunging.  The head should move slightly down and forward in transition

I mean “nuts” as in a good way :) but for me when I start my downswing my whole upper body and head moves forward quite a bit towards the target. Obviously causes all sorts of issues loss of power OTT and EE. Much better now after working hard on rotating and keeping head back but still something I have to keep in mind. I think it’s the whole reason my right shoulder coming over is such an issue because I lunge forward, get out of position and then my brain has to get the club on the ball.

I’m not saying the downhill move is wrong, obviously it’s the right move, I just wonder how I could have that intent without lunging. Is it a more “down” towards ground move then left toward target? Kind of like upper body moves down while the hips rotate “under” the chest/shoulders? Is it a way to load the left leg and really have some ground force to leverage against? All these videos are with irons, how does this work with driver where it’s more an upwards angle of attack vs an iron. Cool stuff! Thanks and happy 4th

Also played yesterday thinking about tilting and played really well. Lost some power though and tended to leave the face open on longer clubs but my path was better because the right shoulder stayed “back”. It was interesting because when it worked the feel was the hips and shoulders were turning on two distinct planes - hips more horizontal rotation and shoulders were more vertical - where I normally felt both were turning horizontally. Hope that makes sense and thanks for the discussion !

Edited by Jasonic, 04 July 2018 - 09:39 AM.

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#67 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:34 AM

View Postblehnhard, on 03 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Played today and really worked on core leading both BS and DS.  Lots of solid shots, only 3 slight mishits with driver (all in play).  Distance control was off somewhat with irons, but picked up about 5 yds per iron on average. 16 GIR including a par 5 in 2.  2 under 70 with 33 putts - 1 3 putt.  Hope to play tomorrow and continue to work on it.

Great swings from Julian Suri.  You can see how is 1st move in transition is staying down with shoulders and hips before going into axis tilt.  Head actually moves forward a little before reversing back to right when he begins tilt.

Thanks for the input JW.

Bruce

Hi Bruce - great to hear about your fantastic round, 16 greens is awesome.  Yes - starting both the backswing and the Transition with your Core is a very important fundamental.

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#68 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:36 AM

View Postmstram, on 03 July 2018 - 10:44 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

And Pivot does NOT mean "hips" rotation which seems to be the default definition on golfwrx, ie lower body pivot. Pivot means hip, core AND most importantly torso / s(houlder) girdle rotation and tilt, which absolutely moves the arms, ie the two sides of the Triangle.

When that base of the Triangle (s girdle/torso/chest) rotates and tilts, the arms are moved, in a large range of motion and very, very quickly. "Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow-moving arms" or "stuck" arms, it means using the Pivot to move the arms and NOT the arm muscles themselves.

In my 25 years of teaching experience, I have worked with thousands of golfers to reduce that excessive independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets, and to replace that toxic motion with a proper Pivot, and those golfers experience massive ball flight improvement, in a very short amount of time. They hit the ball farther - and straighter, with much more solid impact.

Well I think you just worked (indirectly) with one more golfer !

I tried out your ideas tonight, and I can hardly wait to get to the course or range again to work on it !

I have been experiencing greatly improved striking, in the last month or so, by keeping my arms soft on the downswing and making a strong "pivot" (mainly right-hip / right leg). I picked up the "right-arm-soft" idea from watching Garrett Rank, particularly his waggle.

The soft-arms / "partial pivot" has gotten me to consistent ~230 yds, up from ~220 (occasional 235).

But tonight, I tried to work on "re-sequencing" / improving my shoulders-to-arms sequence right through the ball, and hit multiple 240+, and one 260 !  (no wind, maybe ~10 yds roll on soft "dew covered" (heh late at night) fwys).   All fairly straight, only just slightly pulled (left of the center of the fwy !).

Not bad for a 62 yr "youngin"  !

I've always tried to have a "body powered" swing, sometimes to excess, resulting in huge blocks and power loss.

I've always used  a fairly strong r-hip/leg move on the downswing (varying with my physical condition), but have never really put any conscious force / speed(maybe ..probably the better word ?) into the "shoulder-girdle".   My fear would be OTT, if I would ever use those muscles.

But it seems that as long as I start "from the ground up" / keep the arms soft / passive, the arms / club WILL release, even with a strong shoulder move.

So early results, (only 6 drives), it looks like I might have learned about a massive "power-leak (unused source !)

Look out 300 yds, here I come ! :/

Thank You Mr.  Waldron !!!

Your welcome!

Nice to hear the pivot dominant swing concept is helping you.

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#69 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:42 AM

View Postsmdykas, on 02 July 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.
This post is gold. I couldn't agree more. I struggled with the idea of dropping arms.

When I tried the ASI/GG pivot, and not using arm muscles, it was the first time in my life I realized what the hit impulse is! It was like my eyes were opened.

Good point on hit impulse.  There are several kinds of hit impulse but one of the really common ones is a fast moving of the arms from the arm muscles in Transition. There is little to no tilt/rotation/hip shift in those cases, while the arms are moving themselves and fast. Super common for 15 handicappers and higher.

Using your Core to trigger Transition while chest/s girdle is finishing last ten degrees or so of coil to the Top, then lateral hip shift, then Tilt Switch and pivot rotation, all of which combine to move the hands/arms down and forward to P6 is the polar opposite of that hit impulse arm motion flaw.

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#70 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.


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#71 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:51 AM

View Postmarkfax, on 02 July 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

View Postwmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Jason, I’m right there with you. While I have read so many great teachers who share Jim’s point of view (so I know it must be valid) and I have tried it a hundred times - slow motion in mirror, video, etc - but my habit to pull the handle vertically is DEEP. It has never worked for me. Don’t know why but that’s what I’ve seen.

So the only thing I have found that gives me a fighting chance to shallow the shaft is driven 75% by a focus on arms and hands - there’s a real distinct rotational move, trail elbow down and under feel - first I have to get the head back a little above the hands (if I roll it off I have no chance to shallow it) and then rotate the head below the hands/behind the back.

I say 75% because I do find that if I really push my butt back in transition as I am doing this then that really gets things in a good place to turn thru impact.

This is still very much a work in progress for me but I am very encouraged.

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.


Thanks for your detailed and helpful replies. Question about the practical application of these concepts: Is it possible to have so much arm/hand tension that the pivot alone fails to get the arms to a decent P6?

This is why I ask. I recently took a lesson from a well-respected local instructor, who, like yourself, favors a pivot-controlled swing, for the same reasons you have taught us. He thought that my bs and transition were reasonably good, but that my hand/arm tension were off the charts. The tension was my attempt to avoid flipping my hands in the ds. AoA with driver was 6* down!

During the lesson we tried various pivot oriented concepts without improvement. Finally, the instructor told me that in the ds, pretend that I was skipping a ball on the ground with L-to-R sidespin. My pivot-only biases were screaming "no," but keeping an open mind, I tried it. Much to my surprise, my impact improved considerably, both on video and TM (1* up, path 1* right).

I still believe the pivot controlled swing is the ideal, but in situations like mine, is there room in the art of instruction to introduce an "armsy" concept to free up the student's tension and get the pivot and arms better in sync?

Great question!

Yes - I agree, it is possible to have too much arm tension which will certainly impact their moving the little bit independently in the sockets that you need. Meaning you can block that Pivot momentum from causing the arms to move a bit in the sockets.

I define this kind of excess arm tension as more of a mental/emotional cause of bad mechanics than purely mechanical.

Meaning a mild form of yip.  Anxiety causes that kind of arm tension.

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#72 Nard_S

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:59 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.


Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.

So agree. The other aspect is often we're working to fix an effect and not enough on the cause. Chasing shadows, the butterfly effect, those things with general lack of a greater holistic approach.

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#73 Redjeep83

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 10:04 AM

I've found the left shoulder down works better with more secondary tilt at address, at least for me because it steepens the downswing. I always feel too shallow adding more secondary tilt at address and this move seems to help.

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#74 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 10:07 AM

View PostMono, on 02 July 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Jim,  appreciate your comments here, i hate to side track the OP,  but seems like you have catagorized swing issues over the years, with that said i suffer from a very inside out swing, plenty of shaft flattening, but i don't get all my weight forward and occassionally finish on my back foot. (probably more than occassionally)  so my misses are usually either straight pushes or hooks.  I have been told i stall in the downswing.  Some of the improvements i have made in the last year have come from shortening my swing,  full body coil, but in my head my wrist hinge is 90 degrees and 90 degre right arm.  If you have any thoughts i would appreciated it,  Thx

PM sent.

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#75 wmblake2000

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:15 AM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View Postwmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.

I took from this that he was interested in shallowing: "One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands “up” and the rotation shallows the
club
."


Ha! I am sure I am doing many things poorly.  And you are right, this approach is hard to learn.  But it is progressing and I am a determined guy, and see real hope, finally, to get things in good shape for decent impact.


I could be wrong on that point, but I think the OP was talking about body/pivot rotation, not arm rotation.

Yes wasn’t talking about arm/forearm rotation. Basically I’m trying to figure out the best way to rotate through the ball without letting my right shoulder pop over plane from the top.


Oops, my bad ... must be in over my pay grade. Apologies .... good thread.

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#76 Jim Waldron

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:39 AM

Another aspect of this topic is this: the less fit you are (core strength and flexibility) the more independent arm motion in the sockets you need.

Because for minimal independent arm motion to happen, you need to be able to apply the clubhead to the ball with primarily the Pivot motion, ie open hips and chest at impact.

Folks who are not fit, can't do that to the extent a pro does, and so will need to allow more independent in the sockets arm motion.

But there is a tipping point that is easily reached where your Pivot requires you to use so much independent arm motion that it is literally impossible to achieve even a low level of consistency in making solid contact.

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#77 markfax

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:56 PM

Thanks so much for sharing your insights, Jim!

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#78 WILDTHING

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:25 PM

View Postflanmou, on 01 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

This runs very much counter to another person: Tony Luczak. He claims to have scientific evidence (in the form of motor activation data) that shows that right arm adduction is the big power source in the golf swing. He advocates the intent to hit the ball by driving the right arm through the ball. Similar to Pete Cowen and, for example, Henrik Stenson.

Thoughts?


If a golfer is swinging a driver or iron there will be very likely forward shaft bend sometime after release and into impact. For that scenario  to occur there needs to be 'negative torque'  happening at the hands/wrists. This proves that the clubhead's momentum is pulling the hands through impact and there is no driving force from the hands through the ball because quite frankly the hands cannot keep up with the angular velocity of the clubhead. So unless Tony Luczac can provide evidence that most golfer's clubshafts are lagging into impact  (which is very rare for driver and long irons), the right hand positive torque cannot happen. For the short irons, forward shaft bend might not happen so a right hand drive/hit could in theory apply

I've mentioned this in my thread link below . The physics was described on Dave Tutelman's website when he analysed Lee Comeaux's swing and Ben Hogan's 'hit with the right hand'.

http://www.golfwrx.c...ease-to-impact/


PS. Tutelman shows later the physics of how you can create speed from the top of the golfswing using right shoulder torque. Therefore , one can actually create more clubhead speed from top of backswing to release point (when CF forces are evoked - and I use CF very loosely but its easier to understand).

Edited by WILDTHING, 06 July 2018 - 07:24 AM.


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#79 wmblake2000

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 09:44 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.

This “convincing the unconscious” is the primary task — at least it has been for me. I am familiar with “resistance to change” in both psychological and cultural work (this being part of my professional background) but I was shocked to see how deep this played out in my own golf learning, where I was intentionally trying to change and, at least to my own thinking, was 100% bought into something.

It requires a parallel learning to the mechanics, as does taking it from range to course to competition. At least that’s my experience.
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#80 Jim Waldron

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 10:28 AM

View Postwmblake2000, on 06 July 2018 - 09:44 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.

This “convincing the unconscious” is the primary task — at least it has been for me. I am familiar with “resistance to change” in both psychological and cultural work (this being part of my professional background) but I was shocked to see how deep this played out in my own golf learning, where I was intentionally trying to change and, at least to my own thinking, was 100% bought into something.

It requires a parallel learning to the mechanics, as does taking it from range to course to competition. At least that’s my experience.

Well said....here is how I see it. And this is in no way the norm in golf instruction, in fact, in conventional instruction what I am about to describe is nowhere to be found. It starts with an understanding of how the brain-mind is designed to learn and execute movement pattern skills in sport, dance, music, etc.

The first step is knowing clearly the severe limitations that "choice", "effort", "will power" and "thought" all have in making the body move in new ways. When the body is moving with a lot of complex motion (many moving parts) and at a high rate of speed, in a short time interval, the ability of the conscious thinking mind to make the body do a new pattern is basically zero.

Most golfers do not understand this simple fact that has been known to Western science since the mid 19th century.

And yet the body does clearly have the ability to learn new patterns. And it does so at a deeper level of the mind than the conscious thinking part.

This is NOT a minor issue. I and every golf teacher I know work with students everyday who clearly understand intellectually what they want their body to do - but the body does not do that new pattern.

In fact, since conventional teaching lacks a proven effective learning and training model or body of knowledge about the "how to learn it to the level of dominant habit, ie subconscious mind", most golfers come to believe that the "secret" to better golf is endlessly chasing the "hottest" new swing theory.

Just look at 90% of the threads on this forum.

Intellectual swing theory does not even get you into the ballpark. At best, it gets you headed "north" in the general direction of the ballpark.

The Internet has had the effect of pouring gasoline on the fire of over-analysis of the golf swing and made the problem much, much worse than it was 40 years ago. Back then the swing theory obsessed golfer had to wait a whole month for the next issue of Golf Digest to come out.

And so today we have a kind of Swing Fetish cult that has developed. Golfers who actually seem to care more about acquiring vast amounts of swing theory, even though it has little to no actually positive effect on their ability to strike a golf ball well.


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#81 Jasonic

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 10:58 AM

Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?
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#82 Jim Waldron

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 11:13 AM

View PostJasonic, on 06 July 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?


Absolutely!

Although technically what is termed meditation practice in popular culture is just the early stages of training the mind, ie actually concentration or mindfulness practice.

Meaning narrow focus on just one thing, usually the breath.

Learning how to tame the wandering mind, which is the natural state of normal consciousness.

Connecting mind to body is an essential first step in the golf skills process that I have developed over the past 25 years of teaching golf for a living.

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#83 Jasonic

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 12:48 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 06 July 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 06 July 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?


Absolutely!

Although technically what is termed meditation practice in popular culture is just the early stages of training the mind, ie actually concentration or mindfulness practice.

Meaning narrow focus on just one thing, usually the breath.

Learning how to tame the wandering mind, which is the natural state of normal consciousness.

Connecting mind to body is an essential first step in the golf skills process that I have developed over the past 25 years of teaching golf for a living.

Just curious as I used to meditate quite a bit but are you saying if you meditate on a certain move or swing (your own or say Rory’s) will it help to “re map” your physical pattern?
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#84 wmblake2000

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 01:25 PM

View PostJasonic, on 06 July 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Jim, in your experience Does meditation help with a deeper mind connection with the body?

I meditate daily and have for a long time. I don’t think it helps, per se, but it does encourage the capacity to notice what is happening without intervening thought...

However, I also find I usually need a good intellectual understanding to complement the feel.

Repetition of doing the new move properly and really letting that feel sink in and find its place among all the other feels in the swing seems to be the route that works best for me.

There’s another layer to this, in my experience. I have to also abandon what I used to believe in which is generally rooted in “intermittent positive reinforcement.” It often takes me a while to recognize the old, subtle but very powerful belief and give it up because that belief may not even have ideas/concept attached to it but just be a feel that I have always trusted.

So these two things - building and integrating a new feel and recognizing and discarding my attachment to an old one - seems to me to be key.
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#85 mfm22

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 01:38 PM

That is a point  rarely if ever mentioned -  forgetting the " old " improper move / thought / concept / Feel  etc.

How to " wipe the slate"  so to speak .  This is , in my opinion , an important step towards learning .  Un- learning can be more difficult than  learning  if the old creeps back in

It seems the mind  in order to accept the "new " as valid    must forget the old .  Building trust and confidence comes in the form of reps


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#86 Quick Bucket

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 01:50 PM

View Postmfm22, on 06 July 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

That is a point  rarely if ever mentioned -  forgetting the " old " improper move / thought / concept / Feel  etc.

How to " wipe the slate"  so to speak .  This is , in my opinion , an important step towards learning .  Un- learning can be more difficult than  learning  if the old creeps back in

It seems the mind  in order to accept the "new " as valid must forget the old .  Building trust and confidence comes in the form of reps

Some argue, and I agree, instead of "forgetting" the old, the old must be extinguished by throwing the new against the old while practicing.   The mind has great capacity for instant comparison, might as well use it to our advantage.

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#87 mstram

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 02:19 PM

View PostQuick Bucket, on 06 July 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

View Postmfm22, on 06 July 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

That is a point  rarely if ever mentioned -  forgetting the " old " improper move / thought / concept / Feel  etc.

How to " wipe the slate"  so to speak .  This is , in my opinion , an important step towards learning .  Un- learning can be more difficult than  learning  if the old creeps back in

It seems the mind  in order to accept the "new " as valid must forget the old .  Building trust and confidence comes in the form of reps

Some argue, and I agree, instead of "forgetting" the old, the old must be extinguished by throwing the new against the old while practicing.   The mind has great capacity for instant comparison, might as well use it to our advantage.

I agree, the only way to "forget" an idea, is to have the mind thinking of something else to replace the old thought.

And repetition of the THOUGHT (triggering the FEEL), not necessarily just "mindlessly" repeating the action, is IMO what is important.

There is no such thing as "muscle memory".   It's BRAIN memory, and you only learn a motion by repetitively thinking about  / being AWARE of the motion / which could be considered the same thing as FEELING the motion.

Tim Gallwey "The Inner Game of Golf", has great exercises / examples of "awareness training".  His entire "Inner Game ..." series is based on awareness, focus of concentration and "inner learning"

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#88 wmblake2000

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 02:32 PM

I don’t think I unlearn or forget but I “disown” the old belief, at the level of feel where it matters - in large part because the new way is more successful  and I also truly don’t believe in the old way any more.

Words are hard for all of this...
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#89 mfm22

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 02:36 PM

The brain has to create a new synaptic pathway for any new motor skill ...  Muscles have no memory they a driven by nerve impulses from our brains - understand that aspect .

I agree but admit it's new for me , the training aspect where you understand the feel / action and develop it with being focused on that particular skill -  call it mindful focus

I'm guilty of Mindless practice , now I'll have a few notes on what to work on before getting to range  and that has been very helpful  ..  usually go through a few stages  loose relaxed warm up
followed by more mechanical breakdown of motion / skill & associate it to a feel .. finish with a less skill focused - more feel focused swing set

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#90 Barfolomew

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:21 PM

You're a 5 cap so let your good swings tell you what you like.....DONT GET THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE!!

If you were a rook I would understand your confusion but you're not.

During practice hit balls until you are puring them without analyzing your swing THEN start paying attention to what the mechanics are that you like cause its different for everyone!  But let your swing be natural to how you like....then you can experiment with different styles but first you gotta know where you're coming from so you dont get lost in the millions of techniques taught out there....and you have a basis to judge if something new is better then your natural swing and you can even bounce back and forth between them to feel the difference... swing has to be repeatable so trust what feels natural

Edited by Barfolomew, 06 July 2018 - 03:23 PM.

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