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Transition confusion...drop hands then rotate (Monte) or leave hands up and rotate and then drop (GG)


134 replies to this topic

#31 nlk10010

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:52 AM

Yes, he absolutely does, point taken, I remember hearing Cowen say that Stenson practices it "...every day". From which we infer Stenson is not Ballard, though his move does look a bit like a quick weight shift back and forth. I guess my confusion was that supposedly Swedish coaches learned from Ballard in the U.S. and took that back to Sweden with them. My apologies, but what the hell do I know anyway? I can use a 3-wood off the tee and a 5-wood off the deck on a 300-yard hole, hit them both fat and end up 5 feet from the pin, then quadruple putt. :)

Edited by nlk10010, 03 July 2018 - 07:54 AM.

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#32 Jasonic

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:57 AM

The hardest thing for me when trying both methods is my right shoulder just wants to pop over the plane immediately from the top. So hard for me to keep that sucker in check and keep it on the correct plane, especially when I want to go after one.

Edited by Jasonic, 03 July 2018 - 07:58 AM.

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#33 tngolf22

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 08:25 AM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

The hardest thing for me when trying both methods is my right shoulder just wants to pop over the plane immediately from the top. So hard for me to keep that sucker in check and keep it on the correct plane, especially when I want to go after one.

Been that way my whole life, sir.  I feel your pain.  I still have yet to find a sure-fire way to control it.  I've had maybe one round (under pressure) my entire life where I didn't pop that shoulder as you describe and send the ball left.  That round came during a mid-am qualifier.  Still one of the best ball striking rounds in my life.  I had complete command of the ball that day, left or right.  First round went very well.  Second round of the mid-am I pulled one way left and it fell apart from there.  A month later I barely broke 90 in the club tournament.  I never re-gained confidence in that type of swing again.  I'm almost 100% sure I started swaying with my upper body so thinking about revisiting Waldron's thread to see what I can do different this time around.

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#34 semper76fi

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:19 AM

Check it out. Paul Bertholy, Lifetime Member PGA, and Golf Magazine top 25 teacher, was advocating this move in his writings since the mid-1960’s. Here’s a picture from over fifty years ago published in Golf World magazine. Get Doug Ferreri’s book. It explains everything you need to know.

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#35 Silky

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:34 AM

I found Moe Norman's Master Move very relevant to the current topic.  I tried it as an intent in an actual swing literally as Moe described with surprisingly good result (for my standard).


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#36 semper76fi

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:49 AM

Moe used to visit Paul yearly. Do you have Paul’s book, “The Bertholy Method”, or Doug’s book, Golf Swing Construction 101; The Bertholy Method Revisited”? My game was resurrected after I found Doug Ferreri, and committed myself to The Bertholy Method. That was about four years ago. I’ve been golfing for almost fifty years, and the BM has been the best thing that has ever happened for my game.

Edited by semper76fi, 03 July 2018 - 09:50 AM.


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#37 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:11 AM

View PostJasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Thanks Jim. Always love your insights. When I try to just use body as you advocated in your post, I'm sure I'm doing it wrong lol but my right shoulder kicks out immediately kind of like the upper body rotates at the same time as lower so my plane gets steep and out of whack from the top, irons I get away with it but driver is a disaster. Just trying to figure out this game as I'm a decent player (5.4 mainly due to short game) but can't "break through" to the next plateau.

This makes a lot of sense to me my only concern is trying to "hold on" through impact. I guess keeeping wrist loose momentum and gravity will release the club using this thought?? Thanks again.

We spoke on the phone once about my many years of shanks and that one call cured me just to remind you!!  Thanks!!! This got me from frustrated could be single digit I thought to an actual one :)

Hi J - yes I do recall our phone conversation, great to hear my advice helped you to stop the shanks!

Release of wrist angles can happen in two distinct ways - letting Pivot momentum release the angles (passive release) and using wrist/forearm muscles to throw the angles open (active release).  I recommend passive release for 90% of my students, and only advocate for active release when the player is advanced skill.  Passive is easier to learn and more reliable. Active takes more timing and thus more practice to do effectively.

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#38 wmblake2000

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:10 AM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

The hardest thing for me when trying both methods is my right shoulder just wants to pop over the plane immediately from the top. So hard for me to keep that sucker in check and keep it on the correct plane, especially when I want to go after one.

Do you lift the shoulder at end of transition? I tend to do that - my feel is that this provides me a little extra oomph for speed. Breaking that habit took a long time. Part of it was just really noticing the deep belief that this added power and accepting how powerless it feels not to add this extra move. Sort of goes in sync of relaxed arms and hands at the top.

Also keeping the shaft a little steep going back with a little loop to shallow drops that shoulder vs when I was inside then lifting which sets things in motion for that r shoulder to get off plane.

Edited by wmblake2000, 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM.

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#39 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM

View Postwmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.

I took from this that he was interested in shallowing: "One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands “up” and the rotation shallows the
club
."


Ha! I am sure I am doing many things poorly.  And you are right, this approach is hard to learn.  But it is progressing and I am a determined guy, and see real hope, finally, to get things in good shape for decent impact.


I could be wrong on that point, but I think the OP was talking about body/pivot rotation, not arm rotation.

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#40 TheKrushh

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:48 AM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

The hardest thing for me when trying both methods is my right shoulder just wants to pop over the plane immediately from the top. So hard for me to keep that sucker in check and keep it on the correct plane, especially when I want to go after one.

My golf swing right here. Everything I do is to 1. try to feel the core/chest/triangle move back and through the ball. 2. Feel a little pause, hang, resistance, delay of my hands at the transition to downswing. If those things feel right, everything feels right for me. Anything more complicated tends to break down under stress or pressure. I play scratch to +3 if that matters for the conversation.

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#41 Jasonic

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 12:03 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View Postwmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.

I took from this that he was interested in shallowing: "One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands “up” and the rotation shallows the
club
."


Ha! I am sure I am doing many things poorly.  And you are right, this approach is hard to learn.  But it is progressing and I am a determined guy, and see real hope, finally, to get things in good shape for decent impact.


I could be wrong on that point, but I think the OP was talking about body/pivot rotation, not arm rotation.

Yes wasn’t talking about arm/forearm rotation. Basically I’m trying to figure out the best way to rotate through the ball without letting my right shoulder pop over plane from the top.

Yesterday did some range time and the feel of tilting back to start the downswing showed some positive results for me. I’m not talking about a hang back drop shoulder but what Jim said about retaining the “triangle” from the top and dropping it down with a tilt/turn/pivot. My swing has a ton of out and lunge to the ball so this exaggerated fee helped me stay back and come from the inside. At least it did yesterday lol

I’ve also been trying to clean up my backswing so I’m at least in a good position to start the downswing. Thought I was until I saw a video lol. Think one feeds into the other. I’ll have to see if I’m doing that extra right shoulder lift you mentioned

Edited by Jasonic, 03 July 2018 - 12:07 PM.

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#42 glcoach

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 01:33 PM

I do not understand how one just rotates and leaves the arms up and somehow the arms wind up in a laid off correct position.

If I just rotate then my arms shift out and I have to stand the club up to fit it in to the hitting area otherwise I would not hit the ball.

The arms have to drop at some point. I was pivot driven for a long time. Hit lots of huge pushes and sometimes pulls.

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#43 glk

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

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#44 blehnhard

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 01:48 PM

Played today and really worked on core leading both BS and DS.  Lots of solid shots, only 3 slight mishits with driver (all in play).  Distance control was off somewhat with irons, but picked up about 5 yds per iron on average. 16 GIR including a par 5 in 2.  2 under 70 with 33 putts - 1 3 putt.  Hope to play tomorrow and continue to work on it.

Great swings from Julian Suri.  You can see how is 1st move in transition is staying down with shoulders and hips before going into axis tilt.  Head actually moves forward a little before reversing back to right when he begins tilt.

Thanks for the input JW.

Bruce

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#45 TexasCarlos

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 02:12 PM

I've pondered exactly the same thing, I love the idea of dropping hands because it cures any OTT, BUT this year after watching a lot of GG and even consulting with him online I've dropped my hc to a 4. Turning the hips aggressively  works well for me and makes contact a breeze. That said from what I've gathered it depends on body type and height but more importantly what sequence makes you comfortable. If its more effortless to swing with your arms (think fast twitch muscles) than do so, but if your slower but more consistent hip turn allows the club to shallow and whip thru than do that. I must admit that I do feel more compression with Monte's technique but at times erratic driving and long irons, where as with GG I found a more consistent swing in general with a slight loss in swing speed (2 mph).

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#46 Jasonic

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 03:10 PM

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Hey glk

Can you clarify what downhill means? Thanks

Jason
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#47 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 04:07 PM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Hey glk

Can you clarify what downhill means? Thanks

Jason

I think this is the “downhill move” referenced:



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#48 glk

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 05:01 PM

View PostRattlesnakeRon, on 03 July 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Hey glk

Can you clarify what downhill means? Thanks

Jason

I think this is the “downhill move” referenced:


Pretty much.   Happens early in transition.   Arms don’t move much.   Very little rotation.  Torso stiil closed .   Happens pretty much before arms reach parallel.
Blink of an eye.   Move upper and lower center forward a few inches.    Just finally getting it and I’ve been at it since February.    Used to go too far forward or regain too much hip flexion.    Now I focus on my lead shoulder - feel down a bit then separates from chin.    I can’t hit it left.    Poor wrist and I block it but not too bad.    Suri Dtl is really good example of seeing how he keeps his left tilt and his left hip low as he moves slightly lateral while arms slowly start down.  

Then I like t get some where in the ballpark of this delivery position.    Been using the left arm off the chest intent.    
https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Been working on his single arm release training too.



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#49 27x10.5

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 05:19 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.

What about backswing and getting to the top? I feel like if I didn't use arm muscles for that I'd never get there, it would be a very short swing

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#50 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:40 PM

An oldie but goodie on that downhill transition.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hqW3Pe9mGUE


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#51 Kuchhhhhh

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:46 PM

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

It is a downhill  move.  

Really good from Dtl view

https://www.instagra...-by=dancarraher

Goals. Love his move, so simple and powerful. His before and after swings with Dan are nuts.
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#52 MPStrat

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 08:21 PM

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

An oldie but goodie on that downhill transition.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hqW3Pe9mGUE

I feel like there’s a decent chance I would break my collarbone doing that drill

22

#53 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 08:35 PM

View PostMPStrat, on 03 July 2018 - 08:21 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 03 July 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

An oldie but goodie on that downhill transition.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hqW3Pe9mGUE

I feel like there’s a decent chance I would break my collarbone doing that drill
Yeah something I’ve done only with short swing half speed

But find a downslope or buy one of these
https://www.instagra.../p/BeI1CnilHvP/
$3k for the golfaholic.  Lol

Edited by glk, 03 July 2018 - 08:37 PM.


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#54 mstram

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:23 PM

View PostTheKrushh, on 03 July 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:


My golf swing right here. Everything I do is to 1. try to feel the core/chest/triangle move back and through the ball.

Do you just "feel" the core/chest/tri move, or are you trying to put some force / speed into them ?

I was just out tonight, trying to use Jim Waldron's  "pivot" method (esp the "shoulder girdle / passive arms), and I'm seeing some great and promising results !

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#55 mstram

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:44 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

And Pivot does NOT mean "hips" rotation which seems to be the default definition on golfwrx, ie lower body pivot. Pivot means hip, core AND most importantly torso / s(houlder) girdle rotation and tilt, which absolutely moves the arms, ie the two sides of the Triangle.

When that base of the Triangle (s girdle/torso/chest) rotates and tilts, the arms are moved, in a large range of motion and very, very quickly. "Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow-moving arms" or "stuck" arms, it means using the Pivot to move the arms and NOT the arm muscles themselves.

In my 25 years of teaching experience, I have worked with thousands of golfers to reduce that excessive independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets, and to replace that toxic motion with a proper Pivot, and those golfers experience massive ball flight improvement, in a very short amount of time. They hit the ball farther - and straighter, with much more solid impact.

Well I think you just worked (indirectly) with one more golfer !

I tried out your ideas tonight, and I can hardly wait to get to the course or range again to work on it !

I have been experiencing greatly improved striking, in the last month or so, by keeping my arms soft on the downswing and making a strong "pivot" (mainly right-hip / right leg).    I picked up the "right-arm-soft" idea from watching Garrett Rank, particularly his waggle.

The soft-arms / "partial pivot" has gotten me to consistent ~230 yds, up from ~220 (occasional 235).

But tonight, I tried to work on "re-sequencing" / improving my shoulders-to-arms sequence right through the ball, and hit multiple 240+, and one 260 !  (no wind, maybe ~10 yds roll on soft "dew covered" (heh late at night) fwys).   All fairly straight, only just slightly pulled (left of the center of the fwy !).

Not bad for a 62 yr "youngin"  !

I've always tried to have a "body powered" swing, sometimes to excess, resulting in huge blocks and power loss.

I've always used  a fairly strong r-hip/leg move on the downswing (varying with my physical condition), but have never really put any conscious force / speed(maybe ..probably the better word ?) into the "shoulder-girdle".   My fear would be OTT, if I would ever use those muscles.

But it seems that as long as I start "from the ground up" / keep the arms soft / passive, the arms / club WILL release, even with a strong shoulder move.

So early results, (only 6 drives), it looks like I might have learned about a massive "power-leak (unused source !)

Look out 300 yds, here I come ! :/

Thank You Mr.  Waldron !!!


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#56 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:58 PM

View Post27x10.5, on 03 July 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.

What about backswing and getting to the top? I feel like if I didn't use arm muscles for that I'd never get there, it would be a very short swing

Sure - you do need arm muscles to move the arms on backswing, but it is a small amount of muscle-powered arm motion. Just enough to push the arms away from chest about 4-8 inches, which will cause the right elbow to fold, which then will raise the left arm, ie functions as a lever to move the left arm. Left arm would not lift at all without that right elbow folding, ie we do not want to use arm muscles to lift the arms, ONLY the right elbow folding will lift the left arm.

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#57 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:03 PM

View Postglcoach, on 03 July 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

I do not understand how one just rotates and leaves the arms up and somehow the arms wind up in a laid off correct position.

If I just rotate then my arms shift out and I have to stand the club up to fit it in to the hitting area otherwise I would not hit the ball.

The arms have to drop at some point. I was pivot driven for a long time. Hit lots of huge pushes and sometimes pulls.

Easy answer to your question: Tilt Switch or switching from left side bend at the Top to right side bend will cause the hands/arms to move downwards. If you just "rotate" - which is how most golfers understand the Pivot, wrongly I might add! - then of course you will be way OTT. Have to blend right tilt with rotation for a proper Pivot to happen.

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#58 Jasonic

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:23 PM

These downhill drills are nuts. I’m trying to eliminate lunging at the ball from the top. Right?

Edited by Jasonic, 03 July 2018 - 11:34 PM.

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#59 Jasonic

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:24 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 July 2018 - 11:03 PM, said:

View Postglcoach, on 03 July 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

I do not understand how one just rotates and leaves the arms up and somehow the arms wind up in a laid off correct position.

If I just rotate then my arms shift out and I have to stand the club up to fit it in to the hitting area otherwise I would not hit the ball.

The arms have to drop at some point. I was pivot driven for a long time. Hit lots of huge pushes and sometimes pulls.

Easy answer to your question: Tilt Switch or switching from left side bend at the Top to right side bend will cause the hands/arms to move downwards. If you just "rotate" - which is how most golfers understand the Pivot, wrongly I might add! - then of course you will be way OTT. Have to blend right tilt with rotation for a proper Pivot to happen.

When does tilt switch happen? Right from the top?
2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
TM M3 3 wood - 14.25* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 19* - Tensei Pro White Hybrid 100TX
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

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#60 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:28 PM

View PostJasonic, on 03 July 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 July 2018 - 11:03 PM, said:

View Postglcoach, on 03 July 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

I do not understand how one just rotates and leaves the arms up and somehow the arms wind up in a laid off correct position.

If I just rotate then my arms shift out and I have to stand the club up to fit it in to the hitting area otherwise I would not hit the ball.

The arms have to drop at some point. I was pivot driven for a long time. Hit lots of huge pushes and sometimes pulls.

Easy answer to your question: Tilt Switch or switching from left side bend at the Top to right side bend will cause the hands/arms to move downwards. If you just "rotate" - which is how most golfers understand the Pivot, wrongly I might add! - then of course you will be way OTT. Have to blend right tilt with rotation for a proper Pivot to happen.

When does tilt switch happen? Right from the top?

Somewhat depends on the skill level of the player. Good players tend to do it too fast or too early, and poor players too late and too slowly and not enough range of motion.  Its why most advanced players tend to suffer from too much in to out path when they struggle, and poor players out to in path.

Happens after hip girdle starts to shift to left, along with left ankle roll and left knee bump.

I cover this issue in depth in my Module Four: Mechanics of the Pivot video available here:http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos


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