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Transition confusion...drop hands then rotate (Monte) or leave hands up and rotate and then drop (GG)


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#121 smdykas

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 07:56 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.
Jim, how many degrees should your shoulders (chest) be open at P6 and impact?


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#122 airjammer

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:18 AM

View PostGolfbeat, on 12 July 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

This suggests that there is quite some arm movement.



The arms definitely come of the chest at some point...modern day instructors are arguing when.  You got GG on side saying keep them pinned longer then you got Pete Cowen that on the other side of the spectrum.

Imo as I have said several times..ggís way creates a lot of speed but it seems his players need a crazy amount of guidance and practice to stay hitting it pure. To be honest if I was a struggling mini tour player, Iíd give his method a shot just because if you can get hot for a year or so you could be set for life (Ben Kohles)

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#123 Swingman420

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:41 AM

An irie transition vibe is not attained through the sense of sight as EJ pointed out.  The only way to get a swing is to feel it.  So if you are on holiday in Jamaica hanging on a beach and watching the ocean and then you grab a club to practice swing make your swing like the wave.
A wave doesnít get tight.  A wave flows.  A waves energy is very powerful and it builds slowly and smoothly from the top mon!
You canít take a wave apart piece by piece.  Itís water!
Make your swing like a wave.
Chaka

Edited by Swingman420, 12 July 2018 - 08:42 AM.


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#124 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

View Postsmdykas, on 12 July 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.
Jim, how many degrees should your shoulders (chest) be open at P6 and impact?

Anytime I get a question like this, there are always two answers: what the ideal or "model" recommends in the swing model I have developed, and what the answer is for a real live human golfer asking the question.  Part of the art of teaching is knowing what parts of the swing model are simply not realistic given the body type, fitness level and athletic talent of the student standing in front of you.

Model is 10-15 degrees closed chest at P6 and impact 25-35 degrees open - that is for a driver swing, the most open. Shorter clubs there will be less open chest.

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#125 wmblake2000

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:00 AM

Am I the only one who had to create a note on my phone that translates all those P positions so I can follow these kinds of posts?

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#126 dasams

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

View Postsmdykas, on 12 July 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 05 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View Postdasams, on 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

Good insight...you want around 45 degrees open hips at impact (assuming you are reasonably fit) around 10-20 degrees open hips by P6.

Yes - to me, "convincing" the subconscious mind to accept a new "program" is what the swing change improvement Processs is all about.

There should be a thread devoted to just that concept...it would help a lot of golfers.

Most golfers have no idea how to make a swing change to the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map.
Jim, how many degrees should your shoulders (chest) be open at P6 and impact?

Anytime I get a question like this, there are always two answers: what the ideal or "model" recommends in the swing model I have developed, and what the answer is for a real live human golfer asking the question.  Part of the art of teaching is knowing what parts of the swing model are simply not realistic given the body type, fitness level and athletic talent of the student standing in front of you.

Model is 10-15 degrees closed chest at P6 and impact 25-35 degrees open - that is for a driver swing, the most open. Shorter clubs there will be less open chest.

Jim:  In your post above from July 5th, you said you want your hips open 10-20 deg at P6.  But just above you said the model is 10-15 deg closed chest at P6.  Did you mean open at P6?

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#127 sjcc

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 12:21 PM

If your chest is open at P6 you're  playing a two handed backhand shot, in tennis.

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#128 Redjeep83

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 12:42 PM

View Postairjammer, on 12 July 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

View PostGolfbeat, on 12 July 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

This suggests that there is quite some arm movement.



The arms definitely come of the chest at some point...modern day instructors are arguing when.  You got GG on side saying keep them pinned longer then you got Pete Cowen that on the other side of the spectrum.

Imo as I have said several times..gg's way creates a lot of speed but it seems his players need a crazy amount of guidance and practice to stay hitting it pure. To be honest if I was a struggling mini tour player, I'd give his method a shot just because if you can get hot for a year or so you could be set for life (Ben Kohles)

I've always done kind of a one piece takeway with some wrist hinge, if you looked at a graph would probably be hands, arms, shoulders and then torso/hips in order. On the downswing, just reverse it, torso/hips onto leadside, shoulders and then the arm structure releasing into the shot.

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#129 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:15 PM

Dasams  - S's question said "chest" and I was responding to that word. Hips and chest - totally different things.

10-20 open hips at P6; hips 35-45 degrees open at impact.

10-15 closed chest at P6; driver swings chest open 25-35 degrees at impact.

But your mileage may vary....depending on how flexible your body is and how strong your core is.

Less strength and flexiblity, less open you will be with body at impact, which means you will have to allow more independent arm motion to happen on the forward swing.

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#130 dasams

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:44 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 July 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

10-20 open hips at P6;   10-15 closed chest at P6;

Thanks for clarifying.  At P6, I'm about 5 open hips and 10 closed chest.  Need to keep working on this.


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#131 Jim Waldron

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 02:46 PM

View Postdasams, on 12 July 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 July 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

10-20 open hips at P6;   10-15 closed chest at P6;

Thanks for clarifying.  At P6, I'm about 5 open hips and 10 closed chest.  Need to keep working on this.

Don't neglect the role that fitness can play in this issue. If your hip flexors or hip rotaters or hamstrings are super -tight, you are not going to be able to achieve those open body specs at impact.

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#132 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 08:46 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 July 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 11 July 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

This is the best video I've found to describe the feeling.



Look at the upper body and notice the arms don't move at all. That's what I started to try and feel and that's right when my scores went down and ball striking got better.

I feel like my arms are frozen in place.

Made me think I wouldn't get any power from doing so, but the opposite was true.

Also if you slide or move laterally with the torso hanging back...you have to move the arms. So you really do need a lot of lower body work to make GG style possible.

Thanks for that video, that is a good one!

And visually demonstrates really well the point I am trying to make in this thread.,,,,

Which is that there is way, way, way less independent arm motion than most golfer's believe (like 99.9%!)

There is NOT "none" - just way less than most folks are thinking they need.

Removing un-necessary independent arm motion makes the golf swing much easier to master to a high level of repeatability.
Yeah.

I think the best way to apply this concept is to teach a low lead hip in transition. At least start with that.
The lead hip is the center of the golf swing. You can feel the hips clear out of the way if you try to keep it low and add pressure to the left heel while trying to pivot.



Also to think of the golf swing as a rotational sport was a big one for me. Most people think they need to move the club head down the line.

Pair up this hip action with what feels like frozen arms and you got yourself a damn good swing.

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 13 July 2018 - 08:50 AM.


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#133 jecarnl

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:21 AM

View PostRedjeep83, on 01 July 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

Different styles of swing, have to find what works best for you. I don't like it when instructors are so absolute in their teaching one way or the other

A very wise man.

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#134 lehill66

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:38 AM

View PostJasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

Hey everyone. This is the most conceptually confusing part of the swing for me and I think it's also the most important. Obviously both of these teachers I mentioned are highly accomplished and respected so I'm not saying one is bad or better but just trying to understand the two different thoughts.

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so it's just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands "up" and the rotation shallows the club. Can't wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and they'll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

Thoughts?

This may have been said already but don't feel like reading through all the pages... My view on the transition is that it will happen naturally with proper core weight shift and rotation. You should never "try" to leave your hands up or "try" to drop them. Doing this would kill your swing. When you shift your weight and rotate your core properly, the arms will fall into proper position naturally. The actual position will vary from person to person depending on physique, set up, etc.  But the important thing is to focus on your core body movements and the rest should fall into place.

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#135 Jim Waldron

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:05 AM

View Postlehill66, on 13 July 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

Hey everyone. This is the most conceptually confusing part of the swing for me and I think it's also the most important. Obviously both of these teachers I mentioned are highly accomplished and respected so I'm not saying one is bad or better but just trying to understand the two different thoughts.

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so it's just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands "up" and the rotation shallows the club. Can't wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and they'll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

Thoughts?

This may have been said already but don't feel like reading through all the pages... My view on the transition is that it will happen naturally with proper core weight shift and rotation. You should never "try" to leave your hands up or "try" to drop them. Doing this would kill your swing. When you shift your weight and rotate your core properly, the arms will fall into proper position naturally. The actual position will vary from person to person depending on physique, set up, etc.  But the important thing is to focus on your core body movements and the rest should fall into place.

Great point, I could not agree more.

Although I sometimes will use the two intents you mentioned as a training drill, ie exagerrated intention for students who are first learning the Transition.

OTT'rs can see some benefit from the arms dropping if they are holding so much tension in the upper arms that Pivot momentum is not able to act on the joint to create the movement we do want.

And folks who have too much independent arm-muscle powered arm motion do really well with the "leave the hands/arms up" drill, and those are the majority of golfers for sure.

Problem is this - pretty tough to learn proper Pivot action during Transition if your arms are moving too much independently in the sockets. The two things are incompatible.

Boils down to this - one of the most counter-intuitive aspects of the golf swing is that we are attempting to create  proper impact which needs to be amazingly precise, all while using muscles that are used in our non-golf parts of life for creating power - NOT precision.

How do we blend the precision part with the high CH speed power part?

The answer is to have the insight that in fact your Pivot actually allows for a more precise impact than using your arms does AND it allows for plenty of power as well.

You get that precision (as Hogan knew and shared with a few of his tour pro students) by creating a "structured Triangle". That Triangle tames excessive arm motion and removes some of the toxic "slack" from the swing. It allows you to return the sweet spot of the clubface to the back of the ball in a much more repeatable fashion.

I teach this with a new student using a simple short chip shot motion. No wrist c0ck, no right elbow bend. and no upper arm independent motion. ONLY the Pivot delivers the clubhead into the back of the ball.

My students are amazed at how much more solidly they strike the ball doing this drill.


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