Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Transition confusion...drop hands then rotate (Monte) or leave hands up and rotate and then drop (GG)


134 replies to this topic

#1 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 01 July 2018 - 11:51 AM

Hey everyone. This is the most conceptually confusing part of the swing for me and I think itís also the most important. Obviously both of these teachers I mentioned are highly accomplished and respected so Iím not saying one is bad or better but just trying to understand the two different thoughts.

Are these two different methods trying to achieve the same thing so itís just different feels for individual golfers or two actual different ways to transition?

One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands ďupĒ and the rotation shallows the club. Canít wrap my head around either one just because they seem like polar opposites. Get arms/hands in front of you and then turn or turn while leaving arms behind and theyíll drop on their own. The drop hands one seems similar to Manuel De La Torre method of swinging the club with your arms and body will respond while the other seems like a definite body driven transition and the club will follow.

Thoughts?

2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 airjammer

airjammer

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 714 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 28903
  • Joined: 05/13/2007
  • Handicap:4.2
GolfWRX Likes : 197

Posted 01 July 2018 - 12:04 PM

They are polar opposites but some people may need to feel one thing versus another.  As long as you donít yank the handle down while pulling your front shoulder up and away from the target line..you can probably get away with a lot things

2

#3 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,065 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1676

Posted 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.

3

#4 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 01 July 2018 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Jim. Always love your insights. When I try to just use body as you advocated in your post, Iím sure Iím doing it wrong lol but my right shoulder kicks out immediately kind of like the upper body rotates at the same time as lower so my plane gets steep and out of whack from the top, irons I get away with it but driver is a disaster. Just trying to figure out this game as Iím a decent player (5.4 mainly due to short game) but canít ďbreak throughĒ to the next plateau.

This makes a lot of sense to me my only concern is trying to ďhold onĒ through impact. I guess keeeping wrist loose momentum and gravity will release the club using this thought?? Thanks again.

We spoke on the phone once about my many years of shanks and that one call cured me just to remind you!!  Thanks!!! This got me from frustrated could be single digit I thought to an actual one :)

Edited by Jasonic, 01 July 2018 - 01:04 PM.

2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

4

#5 flanmou

flanmou

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 48 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 432916
  • Joined: 07/17/2016
  • Location:USA
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 20

Posted 01 July 2018 - 02:08 PM

This runs very much counter to another person: Tony Luczak. He claims to have scientific evidence (in the form of motor activation data) that shows that right arm adduction is the big power source in the golf swing. He advocates the intent to hit the ball by driving the right arm through the ball. Similar to Pete Cowen and, for example, Henrik Stenson.

Thoughts?

 Jim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.


5

#6 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM

^^^^^this is what Iím getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??
2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

6

#7 chiva

chiva

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,170 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 176280
  • Joined: 04/20/2012
  • Location:Arizona
GolfWRX Likes : 484

Posted 01 July 2018 - 02:32 PM

 Jasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

^^^^^this is what Iím getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??

 Jasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

^^^^^this is what Iím getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??

The downswing is so fast, I doubt if anything complicated really can be a conscious action.  Obviously though having certain intents before you start your swing helps somehow.

Edited by chiva, 01 July 2018 - 02:33 PM.

OB and water hazards you flunkies

7

#8 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,240 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 379

Posted 01 July 2018 - 02:53 PM

I believe the right answer is more related to how active each person's lower half is AND what their backswing looks like.

The more active the lower half the more one should tend to be more arm dominant.

To second on Jim's point, the more "in front" you keep the arms in the backswing the more you'll need to rotate on the downswing or you'll hit some massive traps. The more inside the backswing the more you need the arms to lead the way down to get them in front. Look at bruce lietzke's swing.

The reason tiger did the pump drill for hours on end in the early 2000s was to get his arms synched up with his lower body.

I don't think either way is more right than the other. Depends on your swing and your body action.

8

#9 Redjeep83

Redjeep83

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,535 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 115910
  • Joined: 10/08/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 667

Posted 01 July 2018 - 07:06 PM

Different styles of swing, have to find what works best for you. I donít like it when instructors are so absolute in their teaching one way or the other

9

#10 NotForeLong

NotForeLong

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 110 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 487708
  • Joined: 11/29/2017
  • Handicap:1,2
GolfWRX Likes : 74

Posted 01 July 2018 - 10:51 PM

 Jasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

^^^^^this is what Iím getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??

Every swing I take is done consciously and in my full swings the right arm straightening also happens, so both?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 joedizzy1978

joedizzy1978

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 50 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 43828
  • Joined: 12/13/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 8

Posted 02 July 2018 - 01:26 AM

If you don't apply a force or torque, no one or no thing will do it for you.

11

#12 Golf nerd

Golf nerd

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 924 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 336769
  • Joined: 08/28/2014
GolfWRX Likes : 204

Posted 02 July 2018 - 05:39 AM

Like others already stated, there are different ways and approaches to swing a Golf club. The confusion comes from an idea that there is only one way and by mixing different ideas. I would suggest to try the Jim Waldron style and the Tony Luczak style (or whatever teacher one likes) and find out what works best.
Imo the arm swing is easier to learn for the masses and feels more powerful, but is less reliant than a pivot driven swing.

12

#13 johnrobison

johnrobison

    In endless pursuit of P6

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 667 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 63419
  • Joined: 08/16/2008
  • Location:The OC
  • Handicap:6ish
GolfWRX Likes : 263

Posted 02 July 2018 - 06:57 AM

 joedizzy1978, on 02 July 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

If you don't apply a force or torque, no one or no thing will do it for you.
Yep!

13

#14 smdykas

smdykas

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 65 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 451598
  • Joined: 01/13/2017
  • Location:Michigan
  • Handicap:8
  • Ebay ID:seabassmd
GolfWRX Likes : 11

Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:12 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both.

My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity.

I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets.

Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6.

And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video.

It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body.  But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets.

The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact.

All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity.

No arm muscles moving the arms required.

Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance.

Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently.

I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion.

They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing.

For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front".

More on that in arm swing illusion thread.
This post is gold. I couldn't agree more. I struggled with the idea of dropping arms.

When I tried the ASI/GG pivot, and not using arm muscles, it was the first time in my life I realized what the hit impulse is! It was like my eyes were opened.

14

#15 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:07 AM

 NotForeLong, on 01 July 2018 - 10:51 PM, said:

 Jasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

^^^^^this is what Iím getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??

Every swing I take is done consciously and in my full swings the right arm straightening also happens, so both?

Sarcasm noted...of course you are Ďconciousí when you swing but the question is if you purposely straighten the arm or does it just happen with a good pivot :)

But isnít the point to use your unconscious mind and just think of target so to swing ďunconsciousĒ 🤔

2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

15

#16 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,065 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1676

Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM

 Jasonic, on 01 July 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

^^^^^this is what I'm getting at.

Obviously the right arm straightens through impact, the right elbow comes down with angles generally intact and then after p6 releases that energy through the ball.

My question is, is this a conscious action (arms) or just happens with the forces that the body turn creates??

If you are pivoting at even close to normal tempo, there is way more than enough energy/momentum created to straighten the right elbow. No need to fire the right triceps to open up that right elbow angle. Gravity alone tends to make that angle want to open up.

Same for your wrist angles.

The reason so many golfers struggle with understanding this is the arm swing illusion. It is a very strong and very deep baseline premise that is "so obviously true" to one's common sense that no one thinks to question it.

Every school I do at least one student will ask me (and usually several) "Jim - how do I make the arms come back down on the forward swing?"

The answer is: what made the arms "go up" in the first place? Two things - the fact that your s girdle is rotating 90 degrees to your spine which is angled over at Setup 25-40 degrees, means that the s girdle rotation on a tilted angle raises the arms up.  When right elbow bends, it also raises the arms, mainly left arm, up to the sky.

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Also your left arm is not in the same angle to your chest at P6 and impact as it was at Setup, it is angle around 30-45 degrees at P6 but was 15-20 degrees at Setup, so the left arm does not lower back to it's Setup position, ie it lowers much less than it raised.

And Pivot does NOT mean "hips" rotation which seems to be the default definition on golfwrx, ie lower body pivot. Pivot means hip, core AND most importantly torso/s girdle rotation and tilt, which absolutely moves the arms, ie the two sides of the Triangle.

When that base of the Triangle (s girdle/torso/chest) rotates and tilts, the arms are moved, in a large range of motion and very, very quickly. "Passive arms" does NOT mean "slow-moving arms" or "stuck" arms, it means using the Pivot to move the arms and NOT the arm muscles themselves.

Golf is a sport that - to play well - requires a blend of precision impact (sweet spot contact on the right angle of attack/low point, with square clubface angle, and a neutral or close to neutral path) and power (ch speed).  If the golfer is using the muscles that surround the upper arm joint to control either power or solidness of impact, well - good luck with that!  

Meaning way too much range of motion in that joint to create solid impact on a regular basis to play good golf.

Just look at the golfers who do that kind of swing, ie tons of random arm in shoulder socket motion - they are called "high handicappers".  All of whom have terrible pivots, why coil and uncoil your body to maximum range of motion if you have those arm muscles to move the arms?

In my 25 years of teaching experience, I have worked with thousands of golfers to reduce that excessive independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets, and to replace that toxic motion with a proper Pivot, and those golfers experience massive ball flight improvement, in a very short amount of time. They hit the ball farther - and straighter, with much more solid impact.

16

#17 SomedayScratch

SomedayScratch

    MN Golf Nut

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 420 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 455894
  • Joined: 02/20/2017
  • Location:Minnesota
  • Handicap:0
GolfWRX Likes : 146

Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:38 AM

Here is my take -- both instructors are phenomenal and produce great results with their clients. However, I have found Monte's instruction easier to implement without guidance, whereas GG's is a bit tougher to comprehend and implement without his guidance whether in person or online lessons. Maybe that is on me, maybe others have the same experience. Either way, both are great and I am completely confident that if I were ever able to have a few lessons with either in person they could take me to a whole new level.

17

#18 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,656 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 2727

Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:15 AM

Jason, I’m right there with you. While I have read so many great teachers who share Jim’s point of view (so I know it must be valid) and I have tried it a hundred times - slow motion in mirror, video, etc - but my habit to pull the handle vertically is DEEP. It has never worked for me. Don’t know why but that’s what I’ve seen.

So the only thing I have found that gives me a fighting chance to shallow the shaft is driven 75% by a focus on arms and hands - there’s a real distinct rotational move, trail elbow down and under feel - first I have to get the head back a little above the hands (if I roll it off I have no chance to shallow it) and then rotate the head below the hands/behind the back.

I say 75% because I do find that if I really push my butt back in transition as I am doing this then that really gets things in a good place to turn thru impact.

This is still very much a work in progress for me but I am very encouraged.
Callaway Epic 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Callway xhot 3 h
Titleist T-MB 4-W Modus 105 R
RomaRo Pro 3-W KBS Tour V 110 S
MacGregor 1025M Vfoil 4-W
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 52, 54,58
Cameron Futura 5W

18

#19 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,656 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 2727

Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:18 AM

PS: that independent arm motion that Jim talks about - I definitely have the feel of my arms and especially hands being very relaxed and passive in the transition. I am not ‘swinging’ the club from the top but rotating the arms (very different feels).
Callaway Epic 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Callway xhot 3 h
Titleist T-MB 4-W Modus 105 R
RomaRo Pro 3-W KBS Tour V 110 S
MacGregor 1025M Vfoil 4-W
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 52, 54,58
Cameron Futura 5W

19

#20 Jim Waldron

Jim Waldron

    Balance Point Golf Schools

  • Sponsors
  • 3,065 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 98978
  • Joined: 11/21/2009
  • Location:Oregon and Hawaii
GolfWRX Likes : 1676

Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM

 wmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Jason, I’m right there with you. While I have read so many great teachers who share Jim’s point of view (so I know it must be valid) and I have tried it a hundred times - slow motion in mirror, video, etc - but my habit to pull the handle vertically is DEEP. It has never worked for me. Don’t know why but that’s what I’ve seen.

So the only thing I have found that gives me a fighting chance to shallow the shaft is driven 75% by a focus on arms and hands - there’s a real distinct rotational move, trail elbow down and under feel - first I have to get the head back a little above the hands (if I roll it off I have no chance to shallow it) and then rotate the head below the hands/behind the back.

I say 75% because I do find that if I really push my butt back in transition as I am doing this then that really gets things in a good place to turn thru impact.

This is still very much a work in progress for me but I am very encouraged.

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,656 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 2727

Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:42 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:


Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.

I took from this that he was interested in shallowing: "One is to drop the arms/hands then rotate and the other from what I understand is to rotate while leaving hands “up” and the rotation shallows the

club

."



Ha! I am sure I am doing many things poorly.  And you are right, this approach is hard to learn.  But it is progressing and I am a determined guy, and see real hope, finally, to get things in good shape for decent impact.
Callaway Epic 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Callway xhot 3 h
Titleist T-MB 4-W Modus 105 R
RomaRo Pro 3-W KBS Tour V 110 S
MacGregor 1025M Vfoil 4-W
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 52, 54,58
Cameron Futura 5W

21

#22 markfax

markfax

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 84239
  • Joined: 05/29/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 11

Posted 02 July 2018 - 11:08 AM

 Jim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

 wmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Jason, I’m right there with you. While I have read so many great teachers who share Jim’s point of view (so I know it must be valid) and I have tried it a hundred times - slow motion in mirror, video, etc - but my habit to pull the handle vertically is DEEP. It has never worked for me. Don’t know why but that’s what I’ve seen.

So the only thing I have found that gives me a fighting chance to shallow the shaft is driven 75% by a focus on arms and hands - there’s a real distinct rotational move, trail elbow down and under feel - first I have to get the head back a little above the hands (if I roll it off I have no chance to shallow it) and then rotate the head below the hands/behind the back.

I say 75% because I do find that if I really push my butt back in transition as I am doing this then that really gets things in a good place to turn thru impact.

This is still very much a work in progress for me but I am very encouraged.

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.


Thanks for your detailed and helpful replies. Question about the practical application of these concepts: Is it possible to have so much arm/hand tension that the pivot alone fails to get the arms to a decent P6?

This is why I ask. I recently took a lesson from a well-respected local instructor, who, like yourself, favors a pivot-controlled swing, for the same reasons you have taught us. He thought that my bs and transition were reasonably good, but that my hand/arm tension were off the charts. The tension was my attempt to avoid flipping my hands in the ds. AoA with driver was 6* down!

During the lesson we tried various pivot oriented concepts without improvement. Finally, the instructor told me that in the ds, pretend that I was skipping a ball on the ground with L-to-R sidespin. My pivot-only biases were screaming "no," but keeping an open mind, I tried it. Much to my surprise, my impact improved considerably, both on video and TM (1* up, path 1* right).

I still believe the pivot controlled swing is the ideal, but in situations like mine, is there room in the art of instruction to introduce an "armsy" concept to free up the student's tension and get the pivot and arms better in sync?

22

#23 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 02 July 2018 - 12:57 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

 wmblake2000, on 02 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Jason, Iím right there with you. While I have read so many great teachers who share Jimís point of view (so I know it must be valid) and I have tried it a hundred times - slow motion in mirror, video, etc - but my habit to pull the handle vertically is DEEP. It has never worked for me. Donít know why but thatís what Iíve seen.

So the only thing I have found that gives me a fighting chance to shallow the shaft is driven 75% by a focus on arms and hands - thereís a real distinct rotational move, trail elbow down and under feel - first I have to get the head back a little above the hands (if I roll it off I have no chance to shallow it) and then rotate the head below the hands/behind the back.

I say 75% because I do find that if I really push my butt back in transition as I am doing this then that really gets things in a good place to turn thru impact.

This is still very much a work in progress for me but I am very encouraged.

Pulling the handle too vertically from the Pivot just means you are not blending the "down" dimension (mainly from the Tilt Switch) with the "around" dimension properly. Most golfers suffer from the exact opposite issue - too much around not enough downl ie OTT.

What I am suggesting about the Pivot moving the arms does not mean you can't do the Pivot wrong.  Obviously you have to be coached on how precisely to do the Pivot motion for it work well.

Also - I was not directly addressing the concept of shaft flattening, which is a separate issue from what the OP was asking about.

You can certainly use arm rotation to flatten the shaft, but in my experience that is a difficult move to learn, and I only recommend it to advanced ballstrikers with good fundamentals and a lot of athletic talent. Natural shaft flattening will happen (about ten degrees) from lateral hip shift and Tilt Switch.

Thanks Jim, when you explain it like this it makes so much sense. Messing around in the mirror at home now (no ball) it really feels good and I DEFINITLEY have what you said here....too much out not enough down. When I really feel like I just TILT hard with my shoulders - right shoulder feels vertical as opposed to horizontal move -  I get in a fantastic position. Must go to range now!!
2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

23

#24 blehnhard

blehnhard

    Over The Hill & Almost Down The Other Side

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 316 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70281
  • Joined: 12/05/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 271

Posted 02 July 2018 - 01:13 PM

Just as a caution - you can right tilt too soon and get too much "under".  I find that I must get back to a more centered position (with more weight on front foot than rear) before I "tilt".  If one loads heavy on the rear foot at top of BS, then slides hips out from under the shoulders forcing rear shoulder down, you will get stuck back and under creating a poor A of A.  I was there this spring with only 1* down with 6I and 8* up with driver.  I have to "stay on top" of the ball more in transition to get proper A of A.

Good discussion.

Bruce

24

#25 Jasonic

Jasonic

    Gamer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,279 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 277815
  • Joined: 09/25/2013
  • Location:Queens NY
  • Handicap:5.0
GolfWRX Likes : 2324

Posted 02 July 2018 - 01:33 PM

 blehnhard, on 02 July 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

Just as a caution - you can right tilt too soon and get too much "under".  I find that I must get back to a more centered position (with more weight on front foot than rear) before I "tilt".  If one loads heavy on the rear foot at top of BS, then slides hips out from under the shoulders forcing rear shoulder down, you will get stuck back and under creating a poor A of A.  I was there this spring with only 1* down with 6I and 8* up with driver.  I have to "stay on top" of the ball more in transition to get proper A of A.

Good discussion.

Bruce

I hear ya there but Iím way forward on the way down already and the right shoulder feels higher at impact (I know itís so wrong but just canít fix it esp under pressure!) so hopefully this feel helps me with both issues as I know theyíre related. Agreed, love the discussion!

Edited by Jasonic, 02 July 2018 - 01:34 PM.

2017 M1 440 9.5* - Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
Cobra f7 3/4 wood - 13.5* - Tensei Pro White 80TX
Srixon u45 DI - 20* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Mizuno mp18 4-PW - Nippon Modus3 120x
Hogan TK wedges - 50*, 54*, 58* - Nippon Modus3 120x
Ping Anser OG
Snell MTB Black

25

#26 Mono

Mono

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 96536
  • Joined: 10/14/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 13

Posted 02 July 2018 - 02:00 PM

Jim,  appreciate your comments here, i hate to side track the OP,  but seems like you have catagorized swing issues over the years, with that said i suffer from a very inside out swing, plenty of shaft flattening, but i don't get all my weight forward and occassionally finish on my back foot. (probably more than occassionally)  so my misses are usually either straight pushes or hooks.  I have been told i stall in the downswing.  Some of the improvements i have made in the last year have come from shortening my swing,  full body coil, but in my head my wrist hinge is 90 degrees and 90 degre right arm.  If you have any thoughts i would appreciated it,  Thx

26

#27 dasams

dasams

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 149 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 415690
  • Joined: 03/14/2016
  • Location:Was Marin but soon Palm Desert
GolfWRX Likes : 43

Posted 02 July 2018 - 02:41 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 02 July 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

So - lowering the arms into the hitting position at P6 is accomplished by rotating the s girdle on that same tilted angle, along with the right elbow straightening. BUT - your body is NOT is the same position at impact that it was in at Setup. Chest and hips are open to the target line, and you have way more right side bend or tilt than at Setup, and your lower body lateral shift creates more pressure on your left leg than at Setup. All of this means you can use less right elbow angle opening up to lower the arms than the same motion raised them on the backswing.

Jim:  Thanks for your input.  I've been working hard on a pivot driven swing with minimal arm muscle input.  One check for me is the amount that my hips are open at impact.  With my crappy arm swing, I estimate that my hips were open as little as 5 deg at impact.  I'm not there yet with a real swing but in a slow mo practice swing, my hips are open 30-40 deg and it feels great.  Now if I can only convince my subconscious brain to keep my arm muscles out of it...

27

#28 FourTops

FourTops

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 674 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 500886
  • Joined: 05/04/2018
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:5.7
GolfWRX Likes : 376

Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:01 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 01 July 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

The real question is this: how much independent motion happens, ie upper arm bones moving in the shoulder sockets? And is that motion caused by arm muscles that surround that joint, or is it caused by pivot momentum, or a blend of both. My research and my teaching experience tell me that the optimum way of doing this is to let pivot momentum create the motion with zero contribution of arm muscles moving the arms, more in the GG camp, along with a little bit of assistance from gravity. I demo this at every golf school I conduct. I go to the Top, freeze my arms so they cannot move even a little bit independently, and then pivot so I arrive at P6, in good position. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, a I will have the same 75 degree angle in my right elbow as at the Top. Not ideal and not a 100% accurate reflection of what will happen in an actual swing, where the momentum and gravity will change that 75 degree angle to 45 degrees, but close enough to prove my point, which is that it is pivot momentum that moves the arms that small amount in the sockets. Hogan did that shift from 75-90 degree right elbow angle at the Top to 45 degrees by P6. And from P6 to impact his elbow angle did not change even a little bit, on most of the Hogan swings I have seen on video. It is one of four main Swing Styles that historically have created great golf, and not one that most golfers can do,ie it takes a lot of talent, feel sense body awareness, strong Core and very flexible body. But some humans can do that model, with only a small amount of upper arms moving in the sockets. The model that I advocate for has 75-90 elbow angle at the Top, 45ish at P6, and 15-25 degrees at impact. All of which is achieved by pivot momentum and a little assist from gravity. No arm muscles moving the arms required. Meaning a much simpler swing, fewer moving body parts, easier to time and stay in balance. Average golfers, ie mid to high handicaps, have way, way too much independent arm motion and are in fact using arm muscles to sling the arms across mid-line of their torso well before impact. Arms/shoulder socket joint is a ball and socket joint with huge range of motion in all dimensions - and therefore a huge source of random motion happening during release to impact, and therefore the main reason why those golfers struggle so much with making solid contact consistently. I ask those guys to show me how much independent arm motion happens in the forward swing to just after impact and they show me a huge amount of motion. They are shocked when I show them how little motion actually happens in the optimal swing. For this model to work though you have to achieve a Top position where the hands/arms are already "in front" so no need to move the arms with arm muscles from "behind you" to "in front". More on that in arm swing illusion thread.

IMO you nailed it.  This is why I've moved to a heavier driver....I swing it under the mindset it's much heavier than it really is to promote GG vs arm swing, or not over-power the club with undue leverage..

28

#29 nlk10010

nlk10010

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 255 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 261162
  • Joined: 07/02/2013
  • Handicap:oo
GolfWRX Likes : 66

Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:02 AM

Everyone's different, of course, and each has their "magic move". But for myself and, I believe, a lot of golfers who have an irresistible tendency to to "hit at" the ball, the more body and the less independent arm action there is in the swing the better. Paul Wilson is not that far from what I take as Jim's approach; one difference is that Paul emphasizes not only eliminating "independent" arm action but relaxing and removing tension from them as well.

Letting the body drive the swing I believe gives a tighter "path" from the top of the BS to the ball, promoting more accurate contact, while dropping the arms first introduces another variable that changes the path. But for me, that difference is relatively minor compared to introducing tension into the arms and trying to swing them towards the ball. As long as the drop is relatively tension free that repositioning is OK, after all that followed by a pure pivot is essentially Hardy's two-plane (leaving out the steepness of the backswing).

Finally, I don't believe Pete Cowen's approach (at least as articulated in one of his older videos) is that different from Jim's or Paul's in that he emphasizes NOT "snatching" from the top but letting the momentum of the club drive the arms, not the other way around. Stenson uses supposedly Ballard's approach which, from what I've read, is driven by the feet, ankles and lower legs. Luczak is (or was) truly different and can give great results because there is little manipulation of the face on the back and down swing and contact can be pure, but the purity of contact depends on you supplementing the arm-driven approach with moving the body forward (or you'll hit it fat, like I do almost all the time).

Edited by nlk10010, 03 July 2018 - 07:04 AM.


29

#30 Millbrook

Millbrook

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,562 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 216859
  • Joined: 12/20/2012
  • Location:East Yorkshire UK
GolfWRX Likes : 451

Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:41 AM

 nlk10010, on 03 July 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

Everyone's different, of course, and each has their "magic move". But for myself and, I believe, a lot of golfers who have an irresistible tendency to to "hit at" the ball, the more body and the less independent arm action there is in the swing the better. Paul Wilson is not that far from what I take as Jim's approach; one difference is that Paul emphasizes not only eliminating "independent" arm action but relaxing and removing tension from them as well.

Letting the body drive the swing I believe gives a tighter "path" from the top of the BS to the ball, promoting more accurate contact, while dropping the arms first introduces another variable that changes the path. But for me, that difference is relatively minor compared to introducing tension into the arms and trying to swing them towards the ball. As long as the drop is relatively tension free that repositioning is OK, after all that followed by a pure pivot is essentially Hardy's two-plane (leaving out the steepness of the backswing).

Finally, I don't believe Pete Cowen's approach (at least as articulated in one of his older videos) is that different from Jim's or Paul's in that he emphasizes NOT "snatching" from the top but letting the momentum of the club drive the arms, not the other way around. Stenson uses supposedly Ballard's approach which, from what I've read, is driven by the feet, ankles and lower legs. Luczak is (or was) truly different and can give great results because there is little manipulation of the face on the back and down swing and contact can be pure, but the purity of contact depends on you supplementing the arm-driven approach with moving the body forward (or you'll hit it fat, like I do almost all the time).

Stenson uses pete Cowens spiral staircase move.


All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors