Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

When/How to call a player on a rules infraction.


76 replies to this topic

#61 leezer99

leezer99

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 663 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 569

Posted 02 July 2018 - 05:32 PM

So what do y'all think about the Joel Dahmen - Sung Kang rules fiasco on 10 yesterday?  Two witnesses and Joel say his ball was never in bounds but he took a drop that indicated it was.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#62 sui generis

sui generis

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,224 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132389
  • Joined: 07/05/2011
  • Location:Asheville
GolfWRX Likes : 2124

Posted 02 July 2018 - 07:02 PM

View Postleezer99, on 02 July 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

So what do y'all think about the Joel Dahmen - Sung Kang rules fiasco on 10 yesterday?  Two witnesses and Joel say his ball was never in bounds but he took a drop that indicated it was.

Too bad there wasn't a PGA Tour referee there to approve the drop. But, I guess you, leezer99, were on the spot and had a clear view of everything. So, thanks for the clarification. :swoon:
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

2

#63 leezer99

leezer99

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 663 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 569

Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:01 PM

View Postsui generis, on 02 July 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 02 July 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

So what do y'all think about the Joel Dahmen - Sung Kang rules fiasco on 10 yesterday?  Two witnesses and Joel say his ball was never in bounds but he took a drop that indicated it was.

Too bad there wasn't a PGA Tour referee there to approve the drop. But, I guess you, leezer99, were on the spot and had a clear view of everything. So, thanks for the clarification. :swoon:

Hey sui, I made no judgement whatsoever.  I simply seeking an opinion on the matter.  Not sure what your issue is.

3

#64 kekoa

kekoa

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 7,735 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66944
  • Joined: 10/02/2008
  • Location:in the hole
  • Handicap:4-20
GolfWRX Likes : 1637

Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM

View Postleezer99, on 02 July 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

So what do y'all think about the Joel Dahmen - Sung Kang rules fiasco on 10 yesterday?  Two witnesses and Joel say his ball was never in bounds but he took a drop that indicated it was.

It's done and over with.  From my readings, there was a tour official there who approved the drop so that's that.  Like Joel said, he argued till he was blue in the face.  I guess only Sung Kang really knows what happened ant its beyond me how a camera didn't catch the shot but I can also understand that all eyes were on Tiger and other more popular players.
Taylormade M3 GD DI
Taylormade Aeroburnder 3&5 GD DI
Taylormade UDI 1,2 & 3
Miura CB-57 BB (5-PW)
Scratch TD DW 53*, 58*
Taylormade Hi Toe 60*
Odyssey 1WS

4

#65 leezer99

leezer99

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 663 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 569

Posted 03 July 2018 - 11:22 AM

View Postkekoa, on 03 July 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 02 July 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

So what do y'all think about the Joel Dahmen - Sung Kang rules fiasco on 10 yesterday?  Two witnesses and Joel say his ball was never in bounds but he took a drop that indicated it was.

It's done and over with.  From my readings, there was a tour official there who approved the drop so that's that.  Like Joel said, he argued till he was blue in the face.  I guess only Sung Kang really knows what happened ant its beyond me how a camera didn't catch the shot but I can also understand that all eyes were on Tiger and other more popular players.

Read in another thread that Kang believed he dropped correctly so the worst is that he was wrong and not a cheater like many are saying.  

How do you think his fellow pros will react to the incident?


5

#66 bwbw

bwbw

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 470266
  • Joined: 06/05/2017
GolfWRX Likes : 16

Posted 03 July 2018 - 12:12 PM

The Kang incident is interesting to me as we had seen nearly the same thing during a junior tournament.

17th hole on the second day.  Teeing area is in the fairway with a red staked hazard in front and along left side.  Player tees off and I see the ball go left immediately.  The hazard that crosses the fairway to the left, along the left hazard line, had a stake at the corner.  I saw the ball go left of that immediately.  Players parent disagrees and we begin a long search for a ball.  In my opinion, the drop should have been at least 100 yards back from where the player wanted to take a drop.

The other side to this is the fact that the ball was nowhere to be found for a long time, and the suddenly appears long the area we had been searching.  Not saying anything fishy happened, but I will say I had walked that area already and there was no ball there.

Regardless, ball was left.  They disagreed.  They ended up taking the drop they thought was correct.

6

#67 Belmont148

Belmont148

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,264 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 474430
  • Joined: 07/10/2017
  • Location:Carolinas
GolfWRX Likes : 522

Posted 03 July 2018 - 12:17 PM

If you are going to bring up an infraction at a kids league match, just make sure you actually know the rule. Had a parent say my kid had an infraction for tending the flag when others were putting off the green, because he didn't lift the stick out the cup. It's only a penalty if the ball strikes the attended stick, or if on the putting surface the tender doesn't pull the stick before the ball stops rolling. He was just being nice because it was a 3/3 match play round and both teams were off the green. Some players wanted it left in and others wanted it out. Parents can be bozos.

Then they tried to call an infraction because the ball was knocked off a tee.
Current Bag:

G400 SFT 10* Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60TS
Cobra F7 3W Aldila Rogue Silver 70S
F6 Baffler 17.5* Aldila Rogue Black 70 stiff
Ping G25 3H and 4H Stock R Flex
Ping I200 5-UW Project X LZ 5.5
MD Forged 56* S200
Scotty Studio Stainless Newport 2

7

#68 kekoa

kekoa

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 7,735 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66944
  • Joined: 10/02/2008
  • Location:in the hole
  • Handicap:4-20
GolfWRX Likes : 1637

Posted 03 July 2018 - 12:30 PM

View PostBelmont148, on 03 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you are going to bring up an infraction at a kids league match, just make sure you actually know the rule. Had a parent say my kid had an infraction for tending the flag when others were putting off the green, because he didn't lift the stick out the cup. It's only a penalty if the ball strikes the attended stick, or if on the putting surface the tender doesn't pull the stick before the ball stops rolling. He was just being nice because it was a 3/3 match play round and both teams were off the green. Some players wanted it left in and others wanted it out. Parents can be bozos.

Then they tried to call an infraction because the ball was knocked off a tee.

Some parents will do this just to get into your player's head during match play situation.     It's dirty, but I've seen it work.
Taylormade M3 GD DI
Taylormade Aeroburnder 3&5 GD DI
Taylormade UDI 1,2 & 3
Miura CB-57 BB (5-PW)
Scratch TD DW 53*, 58*
Taylormade Hi Toe 60*
Odyssey 1WS

8

#69 mrshinsa

mrshinsa

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 476520
  • Joined: 07/26/2017
GolfWRX Likes : 6

Posted 03 July 2018 - 03:47 PM

View PostBelmont148, on 03 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you are going to bring up an infraction at a kids league match, just make sure you actually know the rule. Had a parent say my kid had an infraction for tending the flag when others were putting off the green, because he didn't lift the stick out the cup. It's only a penalty if the ball strikes the attended stick, or if on the putting surface the tender doesn't pull the stick before the ball stops rolling. He was just being nice because it was a 3/3 match play round and both teams were off the green. Some players wanted it left in and others wanted it out. Parents can be bozos.

Then they tried to call an infraction because the ball was knocked off a tee.

Just this past Sunday during our local tournament, one of the dad came up to us and was very angry, and started to lecture my son and me.  

Him: "Hey Guys, just want to let you know someone is going to call penalty on you.  You guys have have 15 seconds to hit your ball. "
Me:  "No, we have 45 seconds to hit."  
Him: "Are you sure about that?"
Me: "Yes, 45 seconds"
Him: "Well I'm going to have to ask someone about that."



This was on hole #3, and my son kept asking during the entire round if we were behind(we were not), and if we needed to hurry up.

9

#70 heavy_hitter

heavy_hitter

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 366715
  • Joined: 03/16/2015
GolfWRX Likes : 1676

Posted 03 July 2018 - 04:13 PM

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

View PostBelmont148, on 03 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you are going to bring up an infraction at a kids league match, just make sure you actually know the rule. Had a parent say my kid had an infraction for tending the flag when others were putting off the green, because he didn't lift the stick out the cup. It's only a penalty if the ball strikes the attended stick, or if on the putting surface the tender doesn't pull the stick before the ball stops rolling. He was just being nice because it was a 3/3 match play round and both teams were off the green. Some players wanted it left in and others wanted it out. Parents can be bozos.

Then they tried to call an infraction because the ball was knocked off a tee.

Just this past Sunday during our local tournament, one of the dad came up to us and was very angry, and started to lecture my son and me.  

Him: "Hey Guys, just want to let you know someone is going to call penalty on you.  You guys have have 15 seconds to hit your ball. "
Me:  "No, we have 45 seconds to hit."  
Him: "Are you sure about that?"
Me: "Yes, 45 seconds"
Him: "Well I'm going to have to ask someone about that."



This was on hole #3, and my son kept asking during the entire round if we were behind(we were not), and if we needed to hurry up.

Very important for kids to know the rules.  My son isn't the outgoing type by any means.  He respects adults and authority.  He does know and understand the rules of golf better than most of the adults caddying.  He would have called the man under the bus right then and there even when he was 8 years old.

There is honestly no need for this from parents.  I honestly think that these organizations would make a rule that caddies need to keep conversations between themselves.  There needs to be no chatter from the parents to the other players.  They should also note that caddies should not be allowed to help with rulings or be able to point out infractions.  The kids should have to do it.  This would prevent parents from doing this.

I have never encountered anything like this.  Since mine have been playing parents are very often cordial and root for the other kids.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 05 July 2018 - 02:55 PM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#71 mrshinsa

mrshinsa

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 476520
  • Joined: 07/26/2017
GolfWRX Likes : 6

Posted 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....

I never played golf in my life and started out with knowing absolutely nothing about golf until my son started playing.

On his 3rd local tournament, my then 9-year old son shanked his tee shot into the pond.

We proceeded to the drop zone, and visibly upset my son slams the ball in the drop zone, which then ends up in a divot(We teeed off in the afternoon so the zone was full of them).
I became upset and tell him to pick it up and drop it again where there is no divot.  
Another dad walks over and calls penalty on my son for picking up a live ball after a drop.
At this point my son breaks into a bawl, and just walks off the field, and tells me he doesn't want to play golf anymore.  
That day was probably one of the worst teaching moment for both of us.  

My son still plays, and now I've tried to read up on as many rules as possible instead of relying on other parents.  

That incident still haunts me, and I end up biting my tongue whenever I see minor infractions.  If anything I would walk up to the caddy(not the player) and politely remind him of the violation with out penalty.  
If we had to call each other on every little things(touching the green, walking on the line of putt, moving the ball while marking etc... )  the game will go nowhere.  

BTW, I've also experienced an incident where the other player was putting on the green with a second ball.  
This was at a local tour, and occurred during the last hole where he was not in contention, so I did not say anything.  

Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

Edited by mrshinsa, 03 July 2018 - 05:00 PM.


11

#72 kevcarter

kevcarter

    Legend

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 12,274 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 3616
  • Joined: 07/28/2005
  • Location:Rice Lake Wisconsin
GolfWRX Likes : 3046

Posted 03 July 2018 - 05:28 PM

View PostBelmont148, on 03 July 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you are going to bring up an infraction at a kids league match, just make sure you actually know the rule. Had a parent say my kid had an infraction for tending the flag when others were putting off the green, because he didn't lift the stick out the cup. It's only a penalty if the ball strikes the attended stick, or if on the putting surface the tender doesn't pull the stick before the ball stops rolling. He was just being nice because it was a 3/3 match play round and both teams were off the green. Some players wanted it left in and others wanted it out. Parents can be bozos.

Then they tried to call an infraction because the ball was knocked off a tee.

Under what rule must the flagstick be removed before the ball comes to rest when struck from the green?
I could be wrong
I have been wrong before
I will be wrong again
=============================
Geometrically Oriented Linear Force
Turtleback Golf & Conference Center

12

#73 kekoa

kekoa

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 7,735 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66944
  • Joined: 10/02/2008
  • Location:in the hole
  • Handicap:4-20
GolfWRX Likes : 1637

Posted 03 July 2018 - 05:37 PM

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....



Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

I hear you.  I think the big difference here is as follows:  1.  State tournament.  Not just a local.  2. Kid was in contention.  Good, bad, or indifferent calling a penalty in this case also protects the field.
Taylormade M3 GD DI
Taylormade Aeroburnder 3&5 GD DI
Taylormade UDI 1,2 & 3
Miura CB-57 BB (5-PW)
Scratch TD DW 53*, 58*
Taylormade Hi Toe 60*
Odyssey 1WS

13

#74 darter79

darter79

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 360 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66967
  • Joined: 10/03/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 194

Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:02 PM

View Postkekoa, on 03 July 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....



Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

I hear you.  I think the big difference here is as follows:  1.  State tournament.  Not just a local.  2. Kid was in contention.  Good, bad, or indifferent calling a penalty in this case also protects the field.

My biggest issue with this is the KID should be calling the penalty on the other KID then I think it be ok but, not the CADDY calling penalty on KIDS.   Question - did said caddy call a penalty on this kid and what impact did it have on the over all result of the state event?

14

#75 md1m

md1m

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 640 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 313547
  • Joined: 05/07/2014
  • Location:Central Texas
GolfWRX Likes : 403

Posted 03 July 2018 - 10:51 PM

View Postkekoa, on 03 July 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....



Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

I hear you.  I think the big difference here is as follows:  1.  State tournament.  Not just a local.  2. Kid was in contention.  Good, bad, or indifferent calling a penalty in this case also protects the field.

Thank goodness the rest of the 7 year olds were "protected". Let's face it, your "friend" that called the penalty on the kid was trying to get his kid an advantage by calling a BS penalty on another kid.

Clubs are fluid

15

#76 heavy_hitter

heavy_hitter

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 366715
  • Joined: 03/16/2015
GolfWRX Likes : 1676

Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:44 PM

View Postdarter79, on 03 July 2018 - 09:02 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 03 July 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....



Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

I hear you.  I think the big difference here is as follows:  1.  State tournament.  Not just a local.  2. Kid was in contention.  Good, bad, or indifferent calling a penalty in this case also protects the field.

My biggest issue with this is the KID should be calling the penalty on the other KID then I think it be ok but, not the CADDY calling penalty on KIDS.   Question - did said caddy call a penalty on this kid and what impact did it have on the over all result of the state event?

If Daddy should discuss with his son and then the son discuss with the other player.  IMHO this would avoid a lot of the problems involving caddies in US Kids.

16

#77 mrshinsa

mrshinsa

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 476520
  • Joined: 07/26/2017
GolfWRX Likes : 6

Posted 04 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

View Postkekoa, on 03 July 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

View Postmrshinsa, on 03 July 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 27 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

For those that have done so, how do you handle rules infractions with other players?  Assuming they don't call it on themselves, do you a). Call it on them right when you see it; b). Wait for the kid to finish the hole and discuss with his/her parent; c). Discuss with an official at the scoring table?


One of my buddies and his son were playing at a state championship over the weekend and my friend notices one of the other players putting a ball up and down a hill (away from the hole.)  The dad of this kid obviously sees this too and tells his kid to stop immediately.  My friend discusses the infraction with the other child's dad and both of them (child and dad) get very upset.  The child even starts crying.

Apparently, the dad of the other child who broke the rule was very upset with my friend that he called the infraction before they finished the hole.


Disclaimer: I understand that it is ideal for the player to call penalties on each other, but we are talking 7 yr olds here....



Back to the OP's story.  Since the boy was 7, he was probably doing it out of boredom, not to gain any sort of advantage by trying to read the speed or slope.  I would have politely told the dad about the infraction without the penalty.  

That's just me though.   Feel free to disagree, I won't be offended.

I hear you.  I think the big difference here is as follows:  1.  State tournament.  Not just a local.  2. Kid was in contention.  Good, bad, or indifferent calling a penalty in this case also protects the field.

I understand, but my initial thought stands.

I would like to my son to win because he was better in terms of skill, not because other player lost due to a rule infraction.  
In reverse, I wouldn't mind if my son lost  because his opponent was better, not because my son unknowingly made a rule infraction.

Yes it's at the state level and in contention, but that just makes it much more painful to win or lose.
https://www.golfdige...ial-tap-in-putt

Again, please feel free to disagree.  I can see it going either way.

Edited by mrshinsa, 04 July 2018 - 06:45 PM.


17



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors