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Kinematic Sequencing - 2 Weeks to Improve


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#1 PorscheFan

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:52 AM

The snippets I've read on here about kinematic sequencing (pelvis > thorax > arm > club) has been really enlightening.  I keep tripping upon various threads where little gems pop out around this topic.

glk is all over this... just a great understanding of how this all works

So, I played around with this in my hotel room yesterday.  I had one SuperSpeed golf club with my and my SSR.  It's a lot (for me) to try to coordinate and think about, so I tried to simply have the feelings of starting the downswing with my hips first, and of pulling my left shoulder up at impact and letting the club whip through (vs. trying to maintain arm speed through the strike and 'follow' the club).

There were 7mph jumps in clubhead speed when I synced it correctly, with no greater feeling of effort.  Real, meaningful jumps.  It just wasn't consistent.

There's something there, I'm convinced of it.  To me, this is the main reason why my scrawny golf coach can generate so much clubhead speed where I struggle.  This explains why I can't get the full benefits out of my strength.

Now, what on earth do I do about it?

I'm giving myself the challenge of two weeks to improve in this area.  What drills can I do to improve either individual components of this (e.g. pelvis to thorax), or the whole sequence?


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#2 OakLawnGolfPro

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:47 PM

What’s your current sequence?  I wrote an article about this topic for this site covering this topic as well if you wanna check it out.

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#3 PorscheFan

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:56 PM

View PostOakLawnGolfPro, on 14 June 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

What’s your current sequence?  I wrote an article about this topic for this site covering this topic as well if you wanna check it out.

I'll definitely want to read that.

I haven't been measured on K-vest yet (coming soon), but my feeling was of trying to speed up everything moving into impact, vs. hips, torso, arms.  As a result I tended to 'follow' the ball with my arms and club.

I'm guessing on a chart that would look like three stacked curves that all slow down prior to impact (otherwise I'd end up falling over)

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#4 games

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:16 PM

Find a bedroom.
They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
going to sea without a rudder or compass
and who navigates without a course.

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#5 PorscheFan

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:40 PM

View Postgames, on 14 June 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Find a bedroom.

I've got that kinematic sequence down, bruh.  That one's in the genes.  I'm a +2.

But golf?  That's a different matter.  Can't even do that standing up...


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#6 PorscheFan

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 09:17 PM

Well, I've found a way to answer this question for myself.

I found a great local resource with TPI training and K-vest capability.

He gave me a full TPI screening, full K-vest analysis and then gave me a prescription (stretches and exercises) to improve my specific deficiencies.

Both the screening and K-vest analysis were incredibly revealing.  I would never have guessed at the results.  Literally the best two and-a-half hours I've spent on my golf game.  Ever.

I'll go through some of my assumptions vs. actual findings from the tests.

Assumption #1 - My hips are inflexible, therefore I can't get my hips through the shot
Conclusion - my hip flexibility is fine, my posterior chain is fine, but I actually have too much hip rotation in the backswing

Assumption #2 - My flat swing and arm drop at the top of the backswing is a mechanics thing that I need to drill to completely eliminate
Conclusion - My shoulder and chest flexibility is really poor.  I simply can't get my hand high or behind enough.  If I try (which requires deliberate stretching in the backswing) I just can't hold it and the arms drop eventually.  I literally can't hit the positions my instructor wants me to in the backswing without coming out of my posture, which explains why a longer backswing for me causes a massive drop in ball striking and no real increase in distance.

Assumption #3 - My arms dominate the downswing due to a lack of hip and trunk rotation
Conclusion - my peak hip speed is just below PGA Tour range, same for my arms.  My trunk rotation and peak speed, however, are ABOVE the PGA Tour ranges.  It's so fast and so dominant that my hips simply can't compete, and due to the lack of shoulder/arm flexibility my arms basically end up along for the ride.

There are specific inconsistencies in terms of flexibility and timing that I can now work on.  I have a metrics-based diagnosis and a specific plan to improve in my areas of weakness.  I am overjoyed.

I was so excited I went to the range before I got home.  Just the knowledge that my arms can only go back so far and that my trunk was dominating my hips led to the best ball striking I've experienced in as long as I can remember.

Played 9 holes this evening with Game Golf Live, barely felt like I was hitting the ball, and it was a different game.  My chipping and putting was shocking, but my average drives (including landing in rough) went from about 220 yards to 249.  I hit wedges into the majority of par 4 and par 5 greens vs. 6 to 9 iron.

One three putt.  Two flubbed chips from really stinky lies... Distances were off because my sequencing was improving... Yet I still shot 43.  So much work to do, but this is already a different game.

Edited by PorscheFan, 16 June 2018 - 09:31 PM.


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#7 hbgpagolfpro

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 09:46 PM

View PostPorscheFan, on 14 June 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

The snippets I've read on here about kinematic sequencing (pelvis > thorax > arm > club) has been really enlightening.  I keep tripping upon various threads where little gems pop out around this topic.

glk is all over this... just a great understanding of how this all works

So, I played around with this in my hotel room yesterday.  I had one SuperSpeed golf club with my and my SSR.  It's a lot (for me) to try to coordinate and think about, so I tried to simply have the feelings of starting the downswing with my hips first, and of pulling my left shoulder up at impact and letting the club whip through (vs. trying to maintain arm speed through the strike and 'follow' the club).

There were 7mph jumps in clubhead speed when I synced it correctly, with no greater feeling of effort.  Real, meaningful jumps.  It just wasn't consistent.

There's something there, I'm convinced of it.  To me, this is the main reason why my scrawny golf coach can generate so much clubhead speed where I struggle.  This explains why I can't get the full benefits out of my strength.

Now, what on earth do I do about it?

I'm giving myself the challenge of two weeks to improve in this area.  What drills can I do to improve either individual components of this (e.g. pelvis to thorax), or the whole sequence?

Break it down into small steps, without a golf club in your hand.  Then learn how to piece it all together slowly, again without a golf club in your hand.  you'll have to rep it hundreds of times before it will become ingrained.  Once you think you have it, then just work on it with half swings with a wedge at half speed.  Build from there.  It's a process.  The more athletic ability you have, the easier it will be come.  Do other somewhat similar movements as well, such as throwing a baseball.  Wind and unwind.

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#8 PorscheFan

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 10:14 PM

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 16 June 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Break it down into small steps, without a golf club in your hand.  Then learn how to piece it all together slowly, again without a golf club in your hand.  you'll have to rep it hundreds of times before it will become ingrained.  Once you think you have it, then just work on it with half swings with a wedge at half speed.  Build from there.  It's a process.  The more athletic ability you have, the easier it will be come.  Do other somewhat similar movements as well, such as throwing a baseball.  Wind and unwind.

Thanks.  This makes complete sense.  The movements are so fast that I have little awareness of what I'm doing at full swing speed.  This is what I'll do.

There's so much to improve simply in terms of sequencing that even 20% improvement would yield great dividends.  Add in the specific stretches for mobility and my optimism is sky high.

I can't begin to explain how lazily I was swinging the driver this afternooon.  What felt like half swings with no thought other than 'let the hips fire first'.  I had 260 yard drives where - if you had've hit pause immediately after the strike and asked me what I'd just done - I'd have truthfully answered "weak whiffy half-strike.  Contact was decent but it'll probably carry 190 and roll out at 210".  Just weirdness.

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#9 lukerguy

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 05:37 PM

I was able to figure this out for playing quarterback, but have a harder time while golfing.

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#10 PorscheFan

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 06:39 PM

View Postlukerguy, on 17 June 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I was able to figure this out for playing quarterback, but have a harder time while golfing.

I guess itís such a quick movement, plus youíre swinging an object that you never let go of.  I definitely find it much easier to comprehend than to put into action.

Fatherís Day Bonus - I played 9 holes today on a course Iíve never played with very fast greens.  The heat got the better of me, but I still shot 42, which is my lowest ever.  I was two over thru 6.

Edited by PorscheFan, 17 June 2018 - 06:40 PM.


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#11 glk

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:39 PM

Dan has good advice concerning tpi and golf instruction.    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1290510-tpi-evaluation-plus-k-vest/

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#12 PorscheFan

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:17 PM

View Postglk, on 18 June 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Dan has good advice concerning tpi and golf instruction.    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1290510-tpi-evaluation-plus-k-vest/

Thanks.  I've learned a lot from his posts, but I simply don't agree with his skepticism on this particular topic.  I simply haven't done anything better for my game.  I completely understand that it tells you the WHAT, not the entire WHY, but it's not that simple IMHO.

It explained exactly WHY I wasn't getting my hips through.  Without even having the chance to work on sequencing the very knowledge allowed me to delay my trunk rotation a little.  That alone and the knowledge from my TPI screening got me the following:

> 248.8 yards off the tee with less effort than my 220-230 yards prior
> Ball striking improved immediately, because A) my swing became more relaxed and in sequence, B) I stopped trying to make such a large hip rotation on the way back, C) I stopped trying to get the perfect hand position in my backswing until my flexibility allows me to do it naturally, and D) my low point moved forward a full three inches (from behind the ball to in front) even though traditional drills to improve this has brought me no gains in this area

I work with data and it certainly is no more useful that the person interpreting it.  It's so true.  However, with the right analysis and prescriptions based on that data, very cool things can happen.

Edited by PorscheFan, 18 June 2018 - 09:18 PM.


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#13 PorscheFan

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

Well, I think I've met my 2 week target here.  Sequencing has a long way to go, but is much improved.  Swing speed is up also, and swinging is just more consistent and relaxed.

The advice on breaking it down into small steps was spot on.  The actual golf swing is way to fast to work all of this out on the fly.

My SSR got up to 97mph hitting a real ball with my own (1.5 inch short) driver two weeks ago.

Today it was over 100 on many shots and peaked at 102mph.  Instead of hitting the trunks of the trees at the back of the range I was hitting the crown.  Not WRX territory, but a different world for me.

Stage 1 complete.  A very rewarding 2 weeks.

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#14 naval2006

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 01:09 PM

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 16 June 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:


It's a process.  The more athletic ability you have, the easier it will be come.  Do other somewhat similar movements as well, such as throwing a baseball.  Wind and unwind.

I agree.  It probably takes a bit more than two weeks.  You need to be patient and perseverant.  I believe you can get a lot of info about your body and ability but in the end it's all about an instructor monitoring you and you hitting balls as often as you can to ingrain that sequence. There isn't much more to do about it.  Just look at the great golfers now and then, they have been super talented but they've hit so many balls they lost count.  We don't have the time to practice that much but the combination good teacher + good practice makes the difference in the early stages.

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#15 PorscheFan

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 02:08 PM

View Postnaval2006, on 25 June 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 16 June 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

It's a process.  The more athletic ability you have, the easier it will be come.  Do other somewhat similar movements as well, such as throwing a baseball.  Wind and unwind.

I agree.  It probably takes a bit more than two weeks.  You need to be patient and perseverant.  I believe you can get a lot of info about your body and ability but in the end it's all about an instructor monitoring you and you hitting balls as often as you can to ingrain that sequence. There isn't much more to do about it.  Just look at the great golfers now and then, they have been super talented but they've hit so many balls they lost count.  We don't have the time to practice that much but the combination good teacher + good practice makes the difference in the early stages.

To me, it feels like learning to ice skate.  I know I'm no longer falling on my face every two minutes, but that doesn't mean I'm moving as fluidly or as efficiently as a pro.

Breaking the parts down definitely helps.  SSR and face contact are good feedback mechanisms for me.  Both improve over time as kinematic sequence improves, even as perceived swing effort goes down.

I'm going to re-measure on K-vest in July to see what specifically has changed against my baseline.  After that it'll probably be twice a year.


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#16 iteachgolf

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 04:01 PM

View PostPorscheFan, on 18 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 18 June 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Dan has good advice concerning tpi and golf instruction.    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1290510-tpi-evaluation-plus-k-vest/

Thanks.  I've learned a lot from his posts, but I simply don't agree with his skepticism on this particular topic.  I simply haven't done anything better for my game.  I completely understand that it tells you the WHAT, not the entire WHY, but it's not that simple IMHO.

It explained exactly WHY I wasn't getting my hips through.  Without even having the chance to work on sequencing the very knowledge allowed me to delay my trunk rotation a little.  That alone and the knowledge from my TPI screening got me the following:

> 248.8 yards off the tee with less effort than my 220-230 yards prior
> Ball striking improved immediately, because A) my swing became more relaxed and in sequence, B) I stopped trying to make such a large hip rotation on the way back, C) I stopped trying to get the perfect hand position in my backswing until my flexibility allows me to do it naturally, and D) my low point moved forward a full three inches (from behind the ball to in front) even though traditional drills to improve this has brought me no gains in this area

I work with data and it certainly is no more useful that the person interpreting it.  It's so true.  However, with the right analysis and prescriptions based on that data, very cool things can happen.

Where is my skepticism?  I donít think you understood my post, since it is almost entirely based of facts.  Iíve used varying forms of 3D since 2007.  3D by itself is useless.  Itís the pro using it that determines its value.  And likely the pro capable of using it to its potential doesnít need it at all to make the exact same changes and have the exact same impact.  

I completely stand by my post, which when I made them I was on the advisory board of a 3D company.   $300 is overpriced for an evaluation and if the person using the technology isnít extremely knowledgeable about what they are looking at itíd be of no value.

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#17 PorscheFan

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 04:54 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 25 June 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

View PostPorscheFan, on 18 June 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 18 June 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Dan has good advice concerning tpi and golf instruction. http://www.golfwrx.c...on-plus-k-vest/

Thanks.  I've learned a lot from his posts, but I simply don't agree with his skepticism on this particular topic.  I simply haven't done anything better for my game.  I completely understand that it tells you the WHAT, not the entire WHY, but it's not that simple IMHO.

It explained exactly WHY I wasn't getting my hips through.  Without even having the chance to work on sequencing the very knowledge allowed me to delay my trunk rotation a little.  That alone and the knowledge from my TPI screening got me the following:

> 248.8 yards off the tee with less effort than my 220-230 yards prior
> Ball striking improved immediately, because A) my swing became more relaxed and in sequence, B) I stopped trying to make such a large hip rotation on the way back, C) I stopped trying to get the perfect hand position in my backswing until my flexibility allows me to do it naturally, and D) my low point moved forward a full three inches (from behind the ball to in front) even though traditional drills to improve this has brought me no gains in this area

I work with data and it certainly is no more useful that the person interpreting it.  It's so true.  However, with the right analysis and prescriptions based on that data, very cool things can happen.

Where is my skepticism?  I don't think you understood my post, since it is almost entirely based of facts.  I've used varying forms of 3D since 2007.  3D by itself is useless.  It's the pro using it that determines its value.  And likely the pro capable of using it to its potential doesn't need it at all to make the exact same changes and have the exact same impact.  

I completely stand by my post, which when I made them I was on the advisory board of a 3D company.   $300 is overpriced for an evaluation and if the person using the technology isn't extremely knowledgeable about what they are looking at it'd be of no value.

I took '

And Kvest absolutely does not and cannot show where you problems are stemming from

' as skepticism, simply because that's no different than other tools in the golf world that measure data (launch monitors, force plates, etc.), but I see that you were actually alluding to a statement made by another poster in the thread.  In my case the K-vest data absolutely did show me where a key issue was affecting speed, strike, and causing me injury.  100%.

If you're weren't being skeptical at all then I certainly misinterpreted you're post - completely fair point.

The basic data did actually help me tremendously, but the thoughtful analysis of somebody who knowns what they're looking at helps a lot more.  Zero disagreement there.  Combined with a TPI screening (as per that OP) and I believe I've learned more than anything else I've done in golf.

Edited by PorscheFan, 25 June 2018 - 04:55 PM.


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#18 PorscheFan

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 08:41 PM

So I haven't given up on this idea of improving kinematic sequence.  Especially since the early gains.

At the weekend I had a second TPI screening and K-vest session.  While I'm still really struggling to get any meaningful gains in my flexibility yet (especially shoulders) my balance and coordination are significantly improved based on the exercises I was prescribed the first time.

The K-vest analysis was extremely motivating.  I was able to see in the raw numbers where I had made significant gains in separating my lower and upper body movements and specifically starting my transition with my hips first.

Where I hadn't improved was separating my arm rotation from my trunk.  Part of that was down to shoulder flexibility and part was just down to not understanding it or feeling it.  We then used the training option with audio feedback to get a sense of how far I needed to feel rotated at impact.  For me that feeling was more about how far my arms needed to be lagging my trunk.

To ingrain that further we did medicine ball throws with the arms lagging in the throw.  While the K-vest training was great for feeling the lag in a position, this was huge in terms of being able to feel that lag in a flowing motion.

Tried SuperSpeed Golf tonight for the first time since the weekend, due to illness.  I hit 99mph on the heavy club in my non-dominant direction, which I think was 9 MPH above my previous best.  I then hit 106 MPH with the heavy club in my dominant direction, which was 3 MPH above my previous best.

So far I've spend as much as a new driver on this process, but the increase in swing speed and strike, along with the decrease in pain have been more than I could've imagined in one season.

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#19 dhc1

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 10:53 PM

Has your handicap changed since you had the first kvest lesson? Thanks.

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#20 PorscheFan

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 06:07 AM

View Postdhc1, on 31 July 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

Has your handicap changed since you had the first kvest lesson? Thanks.

I don't have an official handicap.  Signing up for GHIN this week in advance of a late August golf trip.

I've gone from a record low of 43 for 9 holes to 42, and then 41.

Better than that, my highest score since I believe has been 45, vs. the 50 I'd have been knocking on the door of before.

I haven't been able to play much the last month but I got out for 9 holes last week.  I was disgusted at my performance - especially putting - but when I tallied after the round it was a 43, which was my 'old' best.


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#21 Swingman420

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 09:33 AM

Youíll have trouble syncing up or sequencing imo if you try to do that vs simply letting the body respond.

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#22 PorscheFan

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 10:10 AM

View PostSwingman420, on 01 August 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

You'll have trouble syncing up or sequencing imo if you try to do that vs simply letting the body respond.

Which specific part?  So far my sequencing has done nothing but improve through this process.  Previously when I 'let my body respond' it brought hips, trunk, and arms through in one unsequenced lump, so at least for me there was no inherent or natural sequence that I understood or was able to tap into.

Maybe part of that is dealing with a lever sport where you need to strike an object.  I don't have similar issues when it comes to, say, throwing a ball.

Edited by PorscheFan, 01 August 2018 - 10:11 AM.


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#23 Swingman420

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 10:50 AM

Porsche
Lever?
The golf club is not a crowbar,  but good luck with your 3D etc.

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#24 iteachgolf

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 11:05 AM

View PostSwingman420, on 01 August 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Porsche
Lever?
The golf club is not a crowbar,  but good luck with your 3D etc.

The club absolutely is a lever.  And 3D has helped tons of people

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#25 Chowdah86

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 12:11 PM

When t comes to taking this out of your house and onto the course:  Its tough to talk yourself through the swing.  You might have success focusing on the start and the end of the sequence.

Start with the bump of the hip/ drop of the heel//bump of the knee/ Left pocket back/squash the bug.  (these are allsequence starters)

Then invision morphing into a nice full finish.  Coiled around left side  I like to think about Ernie Els' finish.  Look at a full speed video of his swings.  He kind of decelerates into his finish,  slowly settling into a balanced position.  Right shoulder to the target, weight on front leg etc.  Hes a good one to emulate because a lot of other guys recoil out of their finishing positions (think Phil M holding his club in front of him like a sword) rather than settle into a balanced finish.


Its good to reduce these things into small soundbites to de-clutter your head "Bump into Els finish"  Or "Bump hip > right shoulder to the flag"

Edited by Chowdah86, 01 August 2018 - 12:21 PM.


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#26 Swingman420

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 12:19 PM

Lever
noun
1.
a rigid bar resting on a pivot, used to help move a heavy or firmly fixed load with one end when pressure is applied to the other

The golf club is swung.  You can try to use it as a lever also.  Thatís why poor players are poor.
3D is way over complicating the matter.
Talent flourished long before 3D and overpaid overrated instruction.
Thatís my opinion and yes I hiked uphill through snow to work.😀
Also I would never include Monte or Iteach in a comment referring to poor instruction.

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#27 PorscheFan

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 12:37 PM

What an odd response, Swingman420.  Partly what 3D does is to measure what talented people do with their bodies vs. the less talented and isolate the differences.  Good instruction is always needed to parse the information and fold it into a program that can help a specific person improve their motion.

3D makes motion easier to understand for many people.  That's simplifying something; not overcomplicating it.


I certainly feel better about what I'm doing when a top drawer teacher affirms the basic value of 3D.


I'm not perfect at any of this stuff (and, boy, do I have a low baseline to start from) but I'm definitely making progress that can to validated in the numbers and also on the course.  Golf is both 'better' for me now, and 'simpler'.


Questions: So, can you swing your pitching wedge as fast as your driver?  Can you remove the head from your driver, hold it in the palm of your hand and hit the golf ball as far as you can when you 'swing' with your full driver?  Just wondering.

Edited by PorscheFan, 01 August 2018 - 12:38 PM.


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#28 Swingman420

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 01:35 PM

Porsche,
I donít feel itís odd.  Understanding is fine.  But one can understand all that minutae yet give em a club they will miss the green 7 of ten from 140 yards.
The information understanding portion is very different from the doing portion of this deal.
The fundamentals of golf are simple.  Swinging a club well is not that complicated. Children do it all the time.
For a top level athlete-they are better coordinated and have ability others do not.  
People always wanna know what they are supposed to do with a certain body part etc ie they want information.
Thereís variations to all of that.  Again I am just an experienced joe not a pro.
Itís just maddening to me how marketing and profit are driving the industry. 3d lol.

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#29 iteachgolf

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 01:53 PM

View PostSwingman420, on 01 August 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Lever
noun
1.
a rigid bar resting on a pivot, used to help move a heavy or firmly fixed load with one end when pressure is applied to the other

The golf club is swung.  You can try to use it as a lever also.  Thatís why poor players are poor.
3D is way over complicating the matter.
Talent flourished long before 3D and overpaid overrated instruction.
Thatís my opinion and yes I hiked uphill through snow to work.😀
Also I would never include Monte or Iteach in a comment referring to poor instruction.

A lever is a rigid body capable of rotating on a point on itself.  

Guess what the golf club is a lever.  Where you hold is the fulcrum.  The torque being applied to the grip creates the leverage.   It literally is the definition of a lever

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#30 Swingman420

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 02:14 PM

Iteach
I am sure what you are saying is valid from a certain point of view semantically.
But why is it called a golf SWING?
The shaft is a flexible medium not rigid.  A crowbar is rigid.
A weight on a string swings.  To speed the weight up power is applied from the center.  As it swings back and forth you donít speed up the weight by pushing on the string in between the weight and the center.
Serious this single misunderstanding is a problem for a lot of people!
The only reason I am pointing it out is because before reading Ernest JonesbI didnít understand it.  So maybe someone else out there suffers now as I did before!

CHAKA


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