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Shallow vs Steep


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#1 Oknows

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:29 AM

With irons, is this basically picker vs digger?  What differentiates this, angle of attack?  What AoA would classify someone as a digger?  Picker?  Thanks!!!

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#2 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM

Picker style is a AOA close to neutral, mis hits is thin ones.

Digger style is a negative AOA, how much depend on who you ask, and this players mis hits is most often the fat ones..

Most players is in between with misses both thin and fat

Swingstyle (AOA), makes a difference to what loft, bounce, leading edge and sole shape the player should use, and for the digger this is very important

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#3 Oknows

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:33 PM

View PostHoward Jones, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

Picker style is a AOA close to neutral, mis hits is thin ones.

Digger style is a negative AOA, how much depend on who you ask, and this players mis hits is most often the fat ones..

Most players is in between with misses both thin and fat

Swingstyle (AOA), makes a difference to what loft, bounce, leading edge and sole shape the player should use, and for the digger this is very important

Howard, my AOA with irons is around -1.2.  That would be considered steep?  I don't really take divots very often.
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#4 justincredible04

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:08 PM

View PostOknows, on 14 June 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

Picker style is a AOA close to neutral, mis hits is thin ones.

Digger style is a negative AOA, how much depend on who you ask, and this players mis hits is most often the fat ones..

Most players is in between with misses both thin and fat

Swingstyle (AOA), makes a difference to what loft, bounce, leading edge and sole shape the player should use, and for the digger this is very important

Howard, my AOA with irons is around -1.2.  That would be considered steep?  I don't really take divots very often.

I think that’s good. I think optimal is between -3 and -4. I’m a fat digging digger. My irons can go up to -6. If you saw my miss your hands would hurt lol

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#5 naj959

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:21 PM

I dont know what my angle of attack is but I would definitely classify myself as a digger. I take a healthy divot with my mid and short irons. Howard is so right about finding the right irons. I can't play clubs with a sharp leading edge. They just dig too much. Mizunos are a no go.


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#6 dlarocca1

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:37 PM

View Postnaj959, on 14 June 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

I dont know what my angle of attack is but I would definitely classify myself as a digger. I take a healthy divot with my mid and short irons. Howard is so right about finding the right irons. I can't play clubs with a sharp leading edge. They just dig too much. Mizunos are a no go.

That was going to be my question as someone who is also a digger playing mizunos mp18s well because they are just so damn beautiful.  I feel like i dig more than I ever have.  would more bounce help or hurt a digger?

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#7 Oknows

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:58 PM

View Postnaj959, on 14 June 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

I dont know what my angle of attack is but I would definitely classify myself as a digger. I take a healthy divot with my mid and short irons. Howard is so right about finding the right irons. I can't play clubs with a sharp leading edge. They just dig too much. Mizunos are a no go.

This was sort of the purpose of my initial question.  I play on some pretty tight lies in Texas and have always felt like between my swing and the surface that I should be playing something with a thinner sole and less bounce.  I currently play z545s and am contemplating going to something like the MP 18 SC or MMC or possibly an AP2.

Edited by Oknows, 14 June 2018 - 02:59 PM.

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#8 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

View PostOknows, on 14 June 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

Picker style is a AOA close to neutral, mis hits is thin ones.

Digger style is a negative AOA, how much depend on who you ask, and this players mis hits is most often the fat ones..

Most players is in between with misses both thin and fat

Swingstyle (AOA), makes a difference to what loft, bounce, leading edge and sole shape the player should use, and for the digger this is very important

Howard, my AOA with irons is around -1.2.  That would be considered steep?  I don't really take divots very often.

No thats shallow and picker...in my book a steep AOA is -5 or more.

Just look on bounce on typical irons. If your AOA is steeper than bounce on the sole, you are "out of bounce" at impact and leading edge will be first contact, and thats why diggers should study this parameters before buying.

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#9 naj959

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:47 PM

Interesting. So if I'm understanding Howard correctly,the amount of bounce is more important then the sharpness of the leading edge? My current irons range from 4 to 7 degrees of bounce and have a blunt leading edge. I've always felt like I can hit down on the ball as much as I like and the club still gets out of the turf. I use high bounce wedges also.

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#10 naj959

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:58 PM

I love the look of mizzys as well. Thought about the mp 18mmc's bought I did not like the turf interaction. Felt like they keep going into the ground which can hurt your wrist overtime.

OP it sounds like you've answered your own question. That type of club sounds like a good match for you. Here in Cali the conditions are a bit softer and I try to pound the ball into the ground.


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#11 Howard Jones

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 12:19 AM

View Postnaj959, on 14 June 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

Interesting. So if I'm understanding Howard correctly,the amount of bounce is more important then the sharpness of the leading edge? My current irons range from 4 to 7 degrees of bounce and have a blunt leading edge. I've always felt like I can hit down on the ball as much as I like and the club still gets out of the turf. I use high bounce wedges also.

For a steep AOA, both bounce, leading edge and radius heel to toe is important, whats most important depends on how steep vs bounce

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#12 Golf64

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 06:12 AM

Was thinking the same thing OP. iBlades would be better for a digger, but was thinking, since I am a low baller, I would add loft to MP18s. Higher launch, more spin and more bounce so not to dig?!
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#13 Howard Jones

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 08:57 AM

View PostGolf64, on 15 June 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

Was thinking the same thing OP. iBlades would be better for a digger, but was thinking, since I am a low baller, I would add loft to MP18s. Higher launch, more spin and more bounce so not to dig?!

There are a few tech parameters who by coincident change for the better when we actually change or adjust someting else, and since a steap AOA means a delofted club at impact, ball flight will be low.

Then adding loft want hurt,and that also adds static bounce on the bargain.

The picker who is shallow has more loft vs the digger at impact, so his ball flight will by nature be high.

If its to high, it want hurt him to bend lofts stronger to get ball flight down, and less bounce want hurt him either.

For a club fitter, it becomes harder to find the right head and shaft combo when AOA is steep, and ball fligt to high, but its not that often ive seen players like that. They was all 95 mph or higher with a 37.50" #6 iron, so on this board there is quite a few


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#14 naj959

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 06:12 PM

Howard what has been a good shaft/clubhead combo for high ball hitters that are steep? Last time I was on a monitor I was around 106 with a driver not sure about a 6 iron. I average 270 with a driver but hit my irons comparatively short. 4 iron 185yds,6 iron 162yards, Pw 115 yards carry. I play old school lofts with rifle 5.0 shafts. Dispersion is tight but I feel like my ball balloons a bit. I picked up some z765s with modus 130 shafts and seemed to pick up a club of distance. They have much stronger lofts. Dispersion widened however and I quickly sold them.

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