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Advice or General Knowledge?


80 replies to this topic

#1 Shipwreck

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you’re on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered “giving advice”?

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#2 sui generis

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 06:55 AM

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

First, the Definition:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Nuance is important. I'd be inclined to consider the remark as advice rather than a statement about the hill they were soon to have to walk up to get to the putting green.

Edited by sui generis, 14 June 2018 - 06:57 AM.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#3 raynorfan1

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 06:56 AM

Advice.

He’s describing how it “plays” not what it’s actual features are.

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#4 davep043

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 06:59 AM

 raynorfan1, on 14 June 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

Advice.

He's describing how it "plays" not what it's actual features are.
+1
When you go beyond the "numbers" and talk about "plays like", you're into the advice area.

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#5 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:07 AM

Sure sounds like advice to me. Addressing how the hole plays.

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#6 6Aces

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:17 AM

If I knew that a hole played "a bit uphill," I would likely choose to play a longer club.  That's "counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club...."

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#7 x-out

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.

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#8 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:32 AM

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
Saying this to someone is giving advice whether or not someone has happened to write it down earlier.  And tossing them an advice book and telling them to look it up would be "advice" too.  If a person, on his/her own, references a book they've brought with them, that's fine.

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#9 davep043

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM

I'm thinking back to my last interclub match, at my home course.  We have significant terrain, some shots may have 30 feet or more of elevation change.  We played against two guys who had never seen the course, so asked a lot of questions.  I felt comfortably within the rules to say things like "Its 200 yards to the near edge of the green, 230 to the back, and its clearly downhill."  I wouldn't discuss how much difference the uphill or downhill makes in club selection, but if its clear to see, I think that falls under the heading of "common knowledge".  Similarly, if a printed Yardage Book says "This hole plays slightly downhill", to say the same thing out loud might also fall under the common knowledge classification.  I'd be interested to hear agreement or disagreement with either.

Edit..I see that Sawgrass has already disagreed about the yardage book part of that, I bow to his superior knowledge on the subject.

Edited by davep043, 14 June 2018 - 09:37 AM.


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#10 sui generis

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
That's an interesting notion. Suppose that $5 course guide booklet from the pro shop says, "On #5, take an extra club. The hole is more uphill than it looks." Does that suddenly become public knowledge, and thus the fellow-competitor's remark no longer constitute advice?

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#11 Newby

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:48 AM

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
That's an interesting notion. Suppose that $5 course guide booklet from the pro shop says, "On #5, take an extra club. The hole is more uphill than it looks." Does that suddenly become public knowledge, and thus the fellow-competitor's remark no longer constitute advice?

Using such information published before play is not IMO a breach of 8-1.

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#12 QEight

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:55 AM

So if there is a new bunker invisible over the hill which is not on strokesaver nor on google maps, I am not allowed to say it?

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you’re on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered “giving advice”?

He can say it is a bit uphill?
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#13 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:55 AM

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
That's an interesting notion. Suppose that $5 course guide booklet from the pro shop says, "On #5, take an extra club. The hole is more uphill than it looks." Does that suddenly become public knowledge, and thus the fellow-competitor's remark no longer constitute advice?

While it's true that "matters of public information" are not "advice" it's also true that basically everything you might say is "public information" in one way or another.  It's public information that swinging with a good tempo helps your game.  But telling an opponent that he should swing with a good tempo is a violation.  "The hole plays uphill" is no different IMO, it should not be said.  Describing the hole as "an uphill par 3" is a different matter.

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#14 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:57 AM

 QEight, on 14 June 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

So if there is a new bunker invisible over the hill which is not on strokesaver nor on google maps, I am not allowed to say it?

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

He can say it is a bit uphill?
IMO stating that there is a bunker present that you can't see is an excellent example of "public information" which may legally be shared.

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#15 sui generis

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:58 AM

 Newby, on 14 June 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
That's an interesting notion. Suppose that $5 course guide booklet from the pro shop says, "On #5, take an extra club. The hole is more uphill than it looks." Does that suddenly become public knowledge, and thus the fellow-competitor's remark no longer constitute advice?

Using such information published before play is not IMO a breach of 8-1.

Nor, I think, is referencing that $5 guide during play a breach. The question becomes does the existance of such published notes place it in the domain of "public information" and the subsequent repeating of same by the fellow-competitor not constitute advice?

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#16 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

 Newby, on 14 June 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
That's an interesting notion. Suppose that $5 course guide booklet from the pro shop says, "On #5, take an extra club. The hole is more uphill than it looks." Does that suddenly become public knowledge, and thus the fellow-competitor's remark no longer constitute advice?

Using such information published before play is not IMO a breach of 8-1.

Nor, I think, is referencing that $5 guide during play a breach. The question becomes does the existance of such published notes place it in the domain of "public information" and the subsequent repeating of same by the fellow-competitor not constitute advice?
You, sir, are standing on a slippery slope!  (And I mean that as advice.)

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#17 Colin L

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:35 AM

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
Saying this to someone is giving advice whether or not someone has happened to write it down earlier.  And tossing them an advice book and telling them to look it up would be "advice" too.  If a person, on his/her own, references a book they've brought with them, that's fine.

What makes someting read in a shared yardage book advice from the other person sharing it?  I'm not with you on that wihout a bit more justification.

Edited by Colin L, 14 June 2018 - 10:35 AM.


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#18 SNIPERBBB

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:41 AM

I would consider allowing an FC to see the book or repeat that kind of advice from the book to them as against the advice rule.


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#19 sui generis

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:54 AM

Hey, somebody call the Far Hills Rules Help Desk. I'll bet the janitor might pick up the phone. :)
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#20 LeoLeo99

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:56 AM

I've played resort courses where the GPS in the cart will give advice like favor the right side with your drive or take an extra club; it's more uphill than it looks.  Did I incur a penalty?


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#21 nsxguy

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:58 AM

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

First, the Definition:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Nuance is important. I'd be inclined to consider the remark as advice rather than a statement about the hill they were soon to have to walk up to get to the putting green.

 QEight, on 14 June 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

So if there is a new bunker invisible over the hill which is not on strokesaver nor on google maps, I am not allowed to say it?

See above.

The information on distance one was somewhat different "way back when". I can remember playing a hole and somebody being about 157 out from the middle.

I was told you could NOT tell them they were 157 out as that was a judgement (the additional 7 yards) and therefore considered "advice" but what you COULD do was go over (or just point to) the 150 yard marker in the middle of the fairway and tell the guy "I'm standing on the 150 yards marker" (public information).

Some 8 or 9(?) years ago I was playing with a buddy of mine who was a big time caddy and he told me that you COULD tell another guy yardages - not sure if this was a result of rangefinders becoming popular or not but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited by nsxguy, 14 June 2018 - 11:04 AM.

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#22 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:01 AM

 LeoLeo99, on 14 June 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

I've played resort courses where the GPS in the cart will give advice like favor the right side with your drive or take an extra club; it's more uphill than it looks.  Did I incur a penalty?
IMO reading something that's already prepared is not asking for advice.  But telling someone to read something specific that's already been prepared is providing them with advice.

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#23 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:05 AM

 Colin L, on 14 June 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
Saying this to someone is giving advice whether or not someone has happened to write it down earlier.  And tossing them an advice book and telling them to look it up would be "advice" too.  If a person, on his/her own, references a book they've brought with them, that's fine.

What makes someting read in a shared yardage book advice from the other person sharing it?  I'm not with you on that without a bit more justification.
Colin, I'm not saying that sharing a yardage book is advice.  I'm saying that saying something like, "You should read this in our yardage book before you make your stroke" is advice, whether it's written down already or not.  On a tangent, I'll add that writing something down on the edge of a scorecard and then passing it to someone telling them to read it is also advice!

Edit: to be clear, I'm saying that suggesting someone read something in a yardage book that's otherwise advice is a violation, I'm not saying that suggesting they read the yardages presented or looking at the hole layout is a violation.

Edited by Sawgrass, 14 June 2018 - 11:17 AM.


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#24 x-out

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:22 AM

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

 Colin L, on 14 June 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
Saying this to someone is giving advice whether or not someone has happened to write it down earlier.  And tossing them an advice book and telling them to look it up would be "advice" too.  If a person, on his/her own, references a book they've brought with them, that's fine.

What makes someting read in a shared yardage book advice from the other person sharing it?  I'm not with you on that without a bit more justification.
Colin, I'm not saying that sharing a yardage book is advice.  I'm saying that saying something like, "You should read this in our yardage book before you make your stroke" is advice, whether it's written down already or not.  On a tangent, I'll add that writing something down on the edge of a scorecard and then passing it to someone telling them to read it is also advice!

Edit: to be clear, I'm saying that suggesting someone read something in a yardage book that's otherwise advice is a violation, I'm not saying that suggesting they read the yardages presented or looking at the hole layout is a violation.

The question was asked at 2017 workshop and the answer was as stated--if written and public, then not advice.

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#25 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:34 AM

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

 Colin L, on 14 June 2018 - 10:35 AM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

 x-out, on 14 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Advice.

Unless there is some public knowledge (internet, course advice book, etc) of same.
Saying this to someone is giving advice whether or not someone has happened to write it down earlier.  And tossing them an advice book and telling them to look it up would be "advice" too.  If a person, on his/her own, references a book they've brought with them, that's fine.

What makes someting read in a shared yardage book advice from the other person sharing it?  I'm not with you on that without a bit more justification.
Colin, I'm not saying that sharing a yardage book is advice.  I'm saying that saying something like, "You should read this in our yardage book before you make your stroke" is advice, whether it's written down already or not.  On a tangent, I'll add that writing something down on the edge of a scorecard and then passing it to someone telling them to read it is also advice!

Edit: to be clear, I'm saying that suggesting someone read something in a yardage book that's otherwise advice is a violation, I'm not saying that suggesting they read the yardages presented or looking at the hole layout is a violation.

The question was asked at 2017 workshop and the answer was as stated--if written and public, then not advice.
I certainly respect the source, but I'm concerned with possible misinterpretation of what was said.  Let me put it this way.  Prior to play, I write down on a slip of paper, "All putts on the 13th green break to the right."  I got that information from the internet, or a yardage book, or the pro.  I believe you're saying since it has already been written down I'm permitted to nudge the player and hand it to him as he approaches the 13th, or read it to him.

I'm not buying that.  You, yourself, choosing to access pre-prepared information is always acceptable.  Forcing it on someone else would often not be.


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#26 LeoLeo99

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:37 AM

 Sawgrass, on 14 June 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

 LeoLeo99, on 14 June 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

I've played resort courses where the GPS in the cart will give advice like favor the right side with your drive or take an extra club; it's more uphill than it looks.  Did I incur a penalty?
IMO reading something that's already prepared is not asking for advice.  But telling someone to read something specific that's already been prepared is providing them with advice.

What if I read the GPS to my FC who was not aware the GPS had helpful hints displayed?

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#27 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:41 AM

I think some people are missing an important distinction.

What is and what is not advice?

vs

What would be a breach of rule 8-1?

Just because something is not a breach of 8-1, does not automatically turn it from "advice" to "public information"

If I document "advice" on a card, and reference it during a round,  it doesn't automatically change it from being advice into being public information (it's definitely not public - it's mine! :-).  I am still using advice but I'm not in violation of 8-1 since I didn't ask it of my FC's (or anyone else) nor was it given to me by them.  How it is given or received is just as important as the nature of the content when determining if a breach has occurred.

Edited by Stuart G., 14 June 2018 - 11:45 AM.


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#28 bigred90gt

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 11:42 AM

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

First, the Definition:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Nuance is important. I'd be inclined to consider the remark as advice rather than a statement about the hill they were soon to have to walk up to get to the putting green.

So if he had said “170 but The green sits on a hill”, do you think that would be considered “information” and not “advice”? Saying the same thing just different words.

Edited by bigred90gt, 14 June 2018 - 11:48 AM.


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#29 raynorfan1

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:24 PM

 bigred90gt, on 14 June 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

First, the Definition:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Nuance is important. I'd be inclined to consider the remark as advice rather than a statement about the hill they were soon to have to walk up to get to the putting green.

So if he had said "170 but The green sits on a hill", do you think that would be considered "information" and not "advice"? Saying the same thing just different words.

That's information, not advice.

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#30 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:34 PM

 raynorfan1, on 14 June 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

 bigred90gt, on 14 June 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 June 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

 Shipwreck, on 14 June 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

You are playing a course for the first time in a tournament and you're on a par 3. It is 170 yards and one of your competitors (who has local course knowledge) says it plays a bit uphill. Is this allowed or considered "giving advice"?

First, the Definition:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Nuance is important. I'd be inclined to consider the remark as advice rather than a statement about the hill they were soon to have to walk up to get to the putting green.

So if he had said "170 but The green sits on a hill", do you think that would be considered "information" and not "advice"? Saying the same thing just different words.

That's information, not advice.
Agreed.  But back to the original comment, "It plays uphill", that sounds to me like a suggestion to use more club since the hole does not appear to be uphill.


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