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Bending irons upright vs tending to draw/hook the ball


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#1 KMeloney

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:20 PM

Despite me always seeming to be "standard" in my iron lies when hitting off a lie board, my range/course divots usually reveal a toe-deep start to them (the toe-end of the sole of the club is entering the turf first, then the divot widens from there), suggesting that maybe my irons should be bent upright some.

However, my natural shot is a draw, and the miss is more often a hook.

Knowing that my miss is a hook, and knowing that bending clubs upright can make them tend to go left, should I abandon the idea of having my lies bent upright? Or, do the benefits of having the club enter the turf uniformly outweigh the downside of anymore left bias in my swing?


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#2 Socrates

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:24 PM

The whole idea is to have the ball go where you want it to go.  The ball doesn't care about the divot pattern.
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#3 ignitewvu

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:32 PM

Missing right can also be a sign of a inward club path....

IDK, I know my Irons are bent 1 Flat & in my case it did turn a Hard drawl on perfectly struck balls to a slight drawl or neutral flight.  But for me bending flat was the right thing to do cause I have shorter arms & my toe was always way up at impact.
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#4 Cwebb

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM

Having the sole enter the turf "uniformly" is overrated.  On the other hand, just about any spec change that allows us to be more consistently accurate, is very valuable

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#5 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM

I’m generally all for someone having “correct” lie angles, but if your usual shot is a draw and your miss is a hook, I’d just leave them alone.

The biggest issue with me is always with the short irons and particularly the wedges.  If I take a sand wedge off the rack with a stock  64* lie it always goes left. Every single shot.  That lie induced pull is a killer for me.  I have to have mine a little bit flat.

If you already fight going left, leave them alone.


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#6 KMeloney

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM

 Socrates, on 13 June 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

The whole idea is to have the ball go where you want it to go.  The ball doesn't care about the divot pattern.

With all due respect, I know that the ball doesn't care. I care, though, because as long as I'm led to believe that I can improve ball contact by having the iron enter the turf uniformly, then I have to wonder if I should address my lie-angles. (If lie angles aren't important, then why are they ever considered?)

If the answer is that an upright lie will always make the ball go more left, then it sounds like a bad idea. But, if the answer is that by getting the lie correct I could dramatically improve contact such that it might actually correct (or at least override) some of my current left tendencies, then I should probably look into it further.

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#7 KMeloney

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:47 PM

 Cwebb, on 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Having the sole enter the turf "uniformly" is overrated.  On the other hand, just about any spec change that allows us to be more consistently accurate, is very valuable

Thank you. Maybe it's not so much the turf entry (I know that it's a symptom of a possible problem, really) as much as an issue of where a toe-deep swing puts the sweet spot behind the ball, or that I could be unknowingly fighting the face wanting to twist open.

...Or that I shouldn't be much concerned with it.

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#8 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

If you take two swings that are EXACTLY  the same in every way, and one is taken with a lie angle that is too upright, it will ALWAYS launch more left than the flatter club.

Opposite holds true as well.  If you make two IDENTICAL swings and one club is too flat for you, it will always launch more to the right than the more upright club.
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#9 Cwebb

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:00 PM

Also, a non-uniform divot does not necessarily mean that the sole was not "uniform" during contact.

A toe heavy divot can simply indicate a "high rate of closure" through and past impact.  A fast closing club face will almost always toe dig the divot,....in part because the toe is arriving in the ground before the heel

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#10 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:07 PM

If it makes a difference to you, my divots all look like my toe is digging just a hair more than the heel and I know my lies are dead on. I Check and adjust them every year.

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#11 KMeloney

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:12 PM

 Cwebb, on 13 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Also, a non-uniform divot does not necessarily mean that the sole was not "uniform" during contact.

A toe heavy divot can simply indicate a "high rate of closure" through and past impact.  A fast closing club face will almost always toe dig the divot,....in part because the toe is arriving in the ground before the heel

Great info.

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#12 KMeloney

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:14 PM

 Jagpilotohio, on 13 June 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

If it makes a difference to you, my divots all look like my toe is digging just a hair more than the heel and I know my lies are dead on. I Check and adjust them every year.

Yes sir, that makes a difference to me. I certainly don't want to have my irons bent if they shouldn't be -- just looking to learn something here.

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#13 Valtiel

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:08 PM

 Cwebb, on 13 June 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Also, a non-uniform divot does not necessarily mean that the sole was not "uniform" during contact.

A toe heavy divot can simply indicate a "high rate of closure" through and past impact.  A fast closing club face will almost always toe dig the divot,....in part because the toe is arriving in the ground before the heel

That would explain a draw bias/hook miss as well so it seems like a good thing to address.
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#14 Awainer1

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:06 PM

Bending upright won’t necessarily cause ur draw to be exaggerated. I play my irons 2 upright and if they are any flatter than that I tend to lower my hands and try to flip the club through instead of just taking my normal in to out swing.

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#15 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:21 PM

 KMeloney, on 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

 Socrates, on 13 June 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

The whole idea is to have the ball go where you want it to go.  The ball doesn't care about the divot pattern.

With all due respect, I know that the ball doesn't care. I care, though, because as long as I'm led to believe that I can improve ball contact by having the iron enter the turf uniformly, then I have to wonder if I should address my lie-angles. (If lie angles aren't important, then why are they ever considered?)

If the answer is that an upright lie will always make the ball go more left, then it sounds like a bad idea. But, if the answer is that by getting the lie correct I could dramatically improve contact such that it might actually correct (or at least override) some of my current left tendencies, then I should probably look into it further.
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself to fix something that ain’t broke.  Lie angles are important, but the important part is the relationship of the club head at impact and not after. And the divot happens after impact.

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#16 Fireballer

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:24 PM

Are you delivering the club with high hands?  That will certainly make the head toe down at impact.

Edited by Fireballer, 13 June 2018 - 09:27 PM.


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#17 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:32 PM

 Socrates, on 13 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

 KMeloney, on 13 June 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

 Socrates, on 13 June 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

The whole idea is to have the ball go where you want it to go.  The ball doesn't care about the divot pattern.

With all due respect, I know that the ball doesn't care. I care, though, because as long as I'm led to believe that I can improve ball contact by having the iron enter the turf uniformly, then I have to wonder if I should address my lie-angles. (If lie angles aren't important, then why are they ever considered?)

If the answer is that an upright lie will always make the ball go more left, then it sounds like a bad idea. But, if the answer is that by getting the lie correct I could dramatically improve contact such that it might actually correct (or at least override) some of my current left tendencies, then I should probably look into it further.
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself to fix something that ain’t broke.  Lie angles are important, but the important part is the relationship of the club head at impact and not after. And the divot happens after impact.

Oh no You didn’t.  You brought up the “divot happens after impact” fact.  Are we betting on How many posts until someone swears that’s not true?

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#18 rexroh

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:42 PM

Why not get one club adjusted and see what happens.  It can always be put back to original lie.

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#19 A.Princey

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:39 AM

I noticed I needed more upright angles when I found that I couldn't hit off tight range mats very consistently, and the toe was always melting the green fiber. Trust me, I fought a hook and never found that bending my clubs, upright appreciably, ever really exacerbated the problem. Better contact allowed me to fix the issue, something that just wasn't possible before

Edited by A.Princey, 14 June 2018 - 02:58 AM.

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#20 LEO MODE

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:58 AM

I am exactly like OP and i am very close to getting a new iron set possibly with 2degrees upright.

However I was told by a Titleist fitter : “i think you should go with a standard lie and just fix your swing to a proper position because your club path is open.”

I now think that perhaps I should fix my swing. I don’t know the handicap of the OP but with my skills having a consistent swing will yield me better swing than bending 2 degrees upright which wouldn’t make that much of a difference to my current consistency.


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#21 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:45 AM

Lie boards is useless, take a ballmarker test.

Lie board marks or deep divot toe side is most likely a face closed to path at impact, and when you close up too much, you got a hook.

Take a look at your hands at address, i think you might have a grip where tje righr

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#22 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:51 AM

Lie boards is useless, take a ballmarker test.

Lie board marks or deep divot toe side is most likely a face closed to path at impact, and when you close up too much, you got a hook.

Take a look at your hands at address, i think you might have a grip where the right hand is "to strong", causing you to close up to much when your timing gets off.

We count 1* too much upright to make a tilt on the spin axis of 3*

We get the same tilt of 3* with a face angle of 1*closed to path, so when our right hand becomes to active, we can by ease close it 3-4 to path, and then we are out to the left with a hook, even with correct lie.

Get lie angles done, and check your lower hand at adr.

Edited by Howard Jones, 14 June 2018 - 06:04 AM.


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#23 KMeloney

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:53 AM

 Socrates, on 13 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself to fix something that ain’t broke.  Lie angles are important, but the important part is the relationship of the club head at impact and not after. And the divot happens after impact.

Not at all. I'm hoping to rule it out, actually, since I'd have to pay someone to do it, would potentially be without my clubs for some time, and maybe have it be a disaster that I'd have to undo after. Really just looking for info from those in the know.

...And, sadly, my divots aren't always after the ball! Haha (But, yes, we're talking about after-the-ball divots here.)

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#24 KMeloney

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:56 AM

 Fireballer, on 13 June 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Are you delivering the club with high hands?  That will certainly make the head toe down at impact.

I think so. I'm working on it, though.

 A.Princey, on 14 June 2018 - 01:39 AM, said:

I noticed I needed more upright angles when I found that I couldn't hit off tight range mats very consistently, and the toe was always melting the green fiber. Trust me, I fought a hook and never found that bending my clubs, upright appreciably, ever really exacerbated the problem. Better contact allowed me to fix the issue, something that just wasn't possible before

This notion is at the heart of my question.

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#25 KMeloney

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:58 AM

 Howard Jones, on 14 June 2018 - 05:51 AM, said:

Lie boards is useless, take a ballmarker test.

Lie board marks or deep divot toe side is most likely a face closed to path at impact, and when you close up too much, you got a hook.

Take a look at your hands at address, i think you might have a grip where the right hand is "to strong", causing you to close up to much when your timing gets off.

We count 1* too much upright to make a tilt on the spin axis of 3*

We get the same tilt of 3* with a face angle of 1*closed to path, so when our right hand becomes to active, we can by ease close it 3-4 to path, and then we are out to the left with a hook, even with correct lie.

Get lie angles done, and check your lower hand at adr.

My grip is definitely strong, and I know that that's the major contributor to the left tendency and miss. No doubt.


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#26 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:51 AM

Okay.  Now we are getting at the root of the issue.  The symptom is toe down and the cause is likely grip and swing orientated.  Sounds like you need to fix the grip issue first and then see what changes have occurred.  As always, seeking professional help is the best route.  They can best guide you in what needs to be done and in what order.
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#27 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:31 AM

Not toe down, all it takes is a face closed to path.

Just imagine a closed face entering the ball, what part of the club will be in front and make turf contact first?  Toe side is the answer

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#28 Fireballer

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM

 KMeloney, on 14 June 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

 Fireballer, on 13 June 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Are you delivering the club with high hands?  That will certainly make the head toe down at impact.

I think so. I'm working on it, though.

 A.Princey, on 14 June 2018 - 01:39 AM, said:

I noticed I needed more upright angles when I found that I couldn't hit off tight range mats very consistently, and the toe was always melting the green fiber. Trust me, I fought a hook and never found that bending my clubs, upright appreciably, ever really exacerbated the problem. Better contact allowed me to fix the issue, something that just wasn't possible before

This notion is at the heart of my question.

I tried about 15 years ago to play with lie angles because of heavy green plastic on the toe after range sessions.  I tried all the way to +4 degrees, stiffer shafts, and relatively little change except hating the way the toe set way up at address.  

Things finally changed when I learned what early extension was and how it was causing me to deliver with hands high and toe down.  Things practically changed overnight.

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#29 Bearinthewoods

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:32 PM

 Fireballer, on 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

 KMeloney, on 14 June 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

 Fireballer, on 13 June 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

Are you delivering the club with high hands?  That will certainly make the head toe down at impact.

I think so. I'm working on it, though.

 A.Princey, on 14 June 2018 - 01:39 AM, said:

I noticed I needed more upright angles when I found that I couldn't hit off tight range mats very consistently, and the toe was always melting the green fiber. Trust me, I fought a hook and never found that bending my clubs, upright appreciably, ever really exacerbated the problem. Better contact allowed me to fix the issue, something that just wasn't possible before

This notion is at the heart of my question.

I tried about 15 years ago to play with lie angles because of heavy green plastic on the toe after range sessions.  I tried all the way to +4 degrees, stiffer shafts, and relatively little change except hating the way the toe set way up at address.  

Things finally changed when I learned what early extension was and how it was causing me to deliver with hands high and toe down.  Things practically changed overnight.

I like this answer- might not be OP's problem, but it was mine. I would also feel the face want to crank open from hitting the ground with thetoe first.

Any issue with this OP?
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#30 KMeloney

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:07 PM

Yeah, I'm sure that's part of it. Working on the swing weekly. Thanks, folks!


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