Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

The primary anti-roll back the ball argument


254 replies to this topic

#31 MtlJeff

MtlJeff

    #TheWRX (Callaway Trip)

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,954 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 68568
  • Joined: 11/01/2008
  • Location:Montreal
  • Handicap:0.0
GolfWRX Likes : 22643

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

Yes, exactly

I would support a ball rollback if the USGA would show data that the ball is hurting the average player and the courses they play at. Ie putting courses out of business, directly making golf more expensive etc...

It seems to me that most of the money is being spent by people who can afford it.


Ping G LS Tec 10 w/Matrix Black Tie 80
Callaway Epic Subzero 14 w/Rogue Max 75
Callaway Steelhead XR 18 w/S300
Callaway Apex Pro 4-PW w/S300
Callaway MD Forged 52,56,60 w/S300
SGC NorthWood Center Shaft 400g

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 Ashley Schaeffer

Ashley Schaeffer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,722 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 258664
  • Joined: 06/24/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 1613

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

2

#33 Ashley Schaeffer

Ashley Schaeffer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,722 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 258664
  • Joined: 06/24/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 1613

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:02 PM

View PostNorth Texas, on 13 June 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

View Posttobiasjd, on 13 June 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

To me, it's not the max carry, it's the less spin.  Todays golfer can swing for the fences with no fear.

The most important thing in today's game is how far you hit while keeping it reasonably accurate.

To me, that's backwards.


Thing is, that has been the most important thing in the game since always.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

3

#34 DFS PFD

DFS PFD

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 650 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 485676
  • Joined: 10/30/2017
  • Handicap:1.8
GolfWRX Likes : 480

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Would we get rid of the USGA Conforming list as well? That would be an expensive project for the body that takes over USGA equipment standards and testing, for manufacturers as well.
F8+ Kuro Kage DC 70 TX
M2 Tour 15* Kuro Kage DC 70TX
790 UDI Tensei Pro White 100TX
4-PW Nike VR Pro Blades X7's
50* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
55* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
60* Hi-Toe Tour Issue S400
009

4

#35 larrybud

larrybud

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,767 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 21167
  • Joined: 10/31/2006
  • Location:Rochester Hills, MI
  • Handicap:2.5
GolfWRX Likes : 4264

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM

View Postknock it close, on 13 June 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

View Postex0dus, on 13 June 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

Rick Shiels did a video comparing todays Prov1 to a wound ball from the 90s. The new ball carried 11 yards farther with the driver, impressive but hardly a game changer.
Ya and Andrew Rice did a comparison and the balata carried 47 yards less https://www.andrewri...-of-a-golf-ball . One review shouldn't be taken as gospel..

And his comparison isn't valid because you need to use the equipment designed for the ball of the time.  Today's drivers are designed for less spin, while the drivers of the day spun the ball to keep it in the air.


5

#36 LittleLeftToRight

LittleLeftToRight

    Turn that frown upside down!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,031 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 273859
  • Joined: 08/31/2013
  • Location:The Swamp
GolfWRX Likes : 1631

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:05 PM

The USGA should outlaw weight lifting and any other kind of physical activity. They should also require everyone who plays golf to have a beer gut, just like in the old days. That would do it.....

Nothing has changed that much aside from fitness. I was there back in the day so I know. The biggest change is information. Basically how to hit the ball further. You can thank Trackman for that.

I still have Persimmon woods. I reckon more or less that they go about as far as my modern 3 wood. Others have stated the same. My modern 3 wood is a TEE 13º. Not really much difference.

Cobra Bio Cell Pro 8.5 Aldila Black Mamba 60TX T1"

Tour Edge Exotics CB4 16.5 Oban Devotion 8/05 T1.5"

Tommy Armour "Heater" 14 DI Aldila Rip Tour X

Srixon I-701 Tour TT Black Gold X 3-PW

Callaway Jaws CC 50/54/58 PX 6.5
Hogan P131


6

#37 gvogel

gvogel

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,515 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 37680
  • Joined: 08/19/2007
  • Location:Western NY
  • Ebay ID:dbvogey
GolfWRX Likes : 2085

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:07 PM

View Postclevited, on 13 June 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View Postex0dus, on 13 June 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

View Postknock it close, on 13 June 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

View Postex0dus, on 13 June 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

Rick Shiels did a video comparing todays Prov1 to a wound ball from the 90s. The new ball carried 11 yards farther with the driver, impressive but hardly a game changer.
Ya and Andrew Rice did a comparison and the balata carried 47 yards less https://www.andrewri...-of-a-golf-ball . One review shouldn't be taken as gospel..


I played college golf in the 80s with those balata balls. If he was carrying them only 225 with a 110 swing speed then he was either hitting them very poorly or the balls had degraded due to age.

I suspect this is so, I am trying to find original specs of the balls.  I am guessing it might be mostly due to weight change.

The weight and circumference of the ball have not changed since 1931 in the US.
On Sundays, I used to play hickory

7

#38 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,088 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 1678

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:07 PM

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Would we get rid of the USGA Conforming list as well? That would be an expensive project for the body that takes over USGA equipment standards and testing, for manufacturers as well.

Nobody has argued that the USGA shouldn't continue to make and enforce the Rules of Golf (together, of course, with the R&A). Equipment standards are one subset of these rules, and always will be.

But I don't see the case for changing the equipment standards from their current form.

8

#39 larrybud

larrybud

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,767 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 21167
  • Joined: 10/31/2006
  • Location:Rochester Hills, MI
  • Handicap:2.5
GolfWRX Likes : 4264

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:08 PM

View PostNevinW, on 13 June 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure I understand one of the primary argument that is used against the idea of rolling back the ball:  That it hurts the recreational player who doesn't hit the ball far enough as it is. My question is:  Let's say they made the golf ball go 5% shorter across the board.  Why couldn't everyone play 6500 yard courses rather than 6900 yards.  Nothing else would change.  Everyone moves up a set of tees and the very back tees are eliminated.  Shorter golf courses means quicker rounds, less fertilizer and expenses.  Instead of hitting a 7 iron 160, one would hit it 152.   How would this be catastrophic to the amateur game?

Why would shorter golf courses mean quicker rounds?  We'd all be hitting it shorter.  Less fertilizer. phfft.  small potatoes for an extra 30 yards for the back box.  Golf courses would still have to pay taxes for the land, as the existing courses aren't going to magically get smaller.

The primary argument is that rolling back the ball is a "solution" to a problem which doesn't exist.  PGA Tour driving averages have essentially been flat for the last 15 years.

9

#40 gvogel

gvogel

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,515 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 37680
  • Joined: 08/19/2007
  • Location:Western NY
  • Ebay ID:dbvogey
GolfWRX Likes : 2085

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:08 PM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 13 June 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

View Postex0dus, on 13 June 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

Rick Shiels did a video comparing todays Prov1 to a wound ball from the 90s. The new ball carried 11 yards farther with the driver, impressive but hardly a game changer.
Most guys are bigger, stronger and all have new methods of training to optimize distance that simply wasn't around 20 years ago.

There's another video of long drivers using persimmon woods and crushing it.

They might have been "crushing" it, but no where near as far with their titanium drivers.  Also, they had a bunch of terrible, unplayable shots.

On Sundays, I used to play hickory

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 Ashley Schaeffer

Ashley Schaeffer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,722 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 258664
  • Joined: 06/24/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 1613

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:10 PM

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Would we get rid of the USGA Conforming list as well? That would be an expensive project for the body that takes over USGA equipment standards and testing, for manufacturers as well.

I fully support the USGA submitting its bid to the PGA of America to conduct equipment testing.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

11

#42 wildcatden

wildcatden

    China Cat Sunflower

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 575 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 481904
  • Joined: 09/14/2017
  • Location:The Bridges - 74.3/144
GolfWRX Likes : 583

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:11 PM

View Post15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 13 June 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

The fix is truly simple (especially for the PGA):  Stop mowing fairways down to concrete-like surfaces, narrow the fairways, and grow the rough another inch or so.

{Sigh.}  Do you realize, that that "simple fix" is just a great big negative, for the quality of golf in the service of simply holding down scoring?  I mean, the USGA has done it many times before.  And they'd argue that they are trying to identify the best golfers and that narrowing fairways and growing rough puts an emphasis on accuracy and nerves and serves as a bit of a brake on distance as players try to hit narrowed fairways for fear of punitive rough.

But that's old thinking, in my view.  The new generation of history-minded golf course architects want to return to width; to give players options on the best lines and re-introduce course management and strategy.  To open up as many lines, angles and choices as possible; to make hazards more strategic and less punitive.


OK, then what about " Stop mowing fairways down to concrete-like surfaces".

12

#43 c7015

c7015

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 234573
  • Joined: 03/05/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 602

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:12 PM

just roll back par ... ya that thing you used to get 5 shots into now you only have 4 ... have fun
915 D3 Rip Phenom 70g (S Flex)
913 FD 3 wood Whiteboard (X Flex)
915 F 5 wood Blueboard (S Flex)
712 U 4 Iron | 714 AP2 5 Iron
714cb  6-PW
Vokey 52, 56, 60
SC Newport 2.5

13

#44 knock it close

knock it close

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,236 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 101876
  • Joined: 01/13/2010
  • Location:Calgary, Alberta
  • Handicap:+2.4
GolfWRX Likes : 5778

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:16 PM

View Postc7015, on 13 June 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:

just roll back par ... ya that thing you used to get 5 shots into now you only have 4 ... have fun
That doesn't do anything tho other than make hackers feel better about themselves when they see pros +5, it doesn't solve any of the perceived* problems (whether you believe they are issues depends what side of the argument you are on)

Edited by knock it close, 13 June 2018 - 12:17 PM.

M2, maybe
915 FD
913 HD
712u 3
714 AP2 4-p
SM5 53, 59
Circa62

14

#45 gvogel

gvogel

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,515 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 37680
  • Joined: 08/19/2007
  • Location:Western NY
  • Ebay ID:dbvogey
GolfWRX Likes : 2085

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:23 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

Will your viewpoint change if a bunch of guys go into double digits under par?  Of course, they manipulate scores by making the greens impossible, like last time.

I would like to see the clubs used for second shots by the top 20 players in this tournament.  And how many times they skip using driver, because they don't have to.

On Sundays, I used to play hickory

15

#46 DFS PFD

DFS PFD

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 650 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 485676
  • Joined: 10/30/2017
  • Handicap:1.8
GolfWRX Likes : 480

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:24 PM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Would we get rid of the USGA Conforming list as well? That would be an expensive project for the body that takes over USGA equipment standards and testing, for manufacturers as well.

I fully support the USGA submitting its bid to the PGA of America to conduct equipment testing.
I think this is a fun subject, while bids are being processed who governs and regulates the equipment, or does professional golf follow USGA's old rules until they find a replacement? Or what if USGA declines to bid? (purely hypothetical, getting bored with the rest of the debate).
F8+ Kuro Kage DC 70 TX
M2 Tour 15* Kuro Kage DC 70TX
790 UDI Tensei Pro White 100TX
4-PW Nike VR Pro Blades X7's
50* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
55* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
60* Hi-Toe Tour Issue S400
009

16

#47 c7015

c7015

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 234573
  • Joined: 03/05/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 602

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:34 PM

View Postknock it close, on 13 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postc7015, on 13 June 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:

just roll back par ... ya that thing you used to get 5 shots into now you only have 4 ... have fun
That doesn't do anything tho other than make hackers feel better about themselves when they see pros +5, it doesn't solve any of the perceived* problems (whether you believe they are issues depends what side of the argument you are on)

solves everything, (if there was anything to even solve)  the argument now is that courses are too short and becoming obsolete so they have to build these monster courses where every par 5 is 700 yards

just lower par ... par 3 too short that guys are hitting wedges into it ... ok now it's a par 2 you are expected to make "bird"
915 D3 Rip Phenom 70g (S Flex)
913 FD 3 wood Whiteboard (X Flex)
915 F 5 wood Blueboard (S Flex)
712 U 4 Iron | 714 AP2 5 Iron
714cb  6-PW
Vokey 52, 56, 60
SC Newport 2.5

17

#48 Ashley Schaeffer

Ashley Schaeffer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,722 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 258664
  • Joined: 06/24/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 1613

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:35 PM

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 June 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 June 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

That's a very good point.  The USGA would do well to refrain from attempting to control a professional game over which it has no control.   It's like FIBA trying to tell the NBA where to put its 3PT line.  "Uh, thanks for the input, now GFY."
Sure, the Dream Team will play FIBA rules for a fun summertime exhibition, but the money is made under NBA rules.  The US Open could very well become the one tournament with different rules.
Would we get rid of the USGA Conforming list as well? That would be an expensive project for the body that takes over USGA equipment standards and testing, for manufacturers as well.

I fully support the USGA submitting its bid to the PGA of America to conduct equipment testing.
I think this is a fun subject, while bids are being processed who governs and regulates the equipment, or does professional golf follow USGA's old rules until they find a replacement? Or what if USGA declines to bid? (purely hypothetical, getting bored with the rest of the debate).

The PGA of America adopts and follows current USGA standards for equipment.
The PGA Tour follows PGA of America rules.
Further equipment submissions for the PGAA conforming list are submitted to the USGA for testing (as this is the USGA's only function now).
The PGA of America opens the equipment testing for bidding.
You and I start an equipment testing company and undercut the USGA on price (which is made even easier if the USGA declines to bid. But it won't, because that's all it has now).
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

18

#49 North Texas

North Texas

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,683 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 103646
  • Joined: 02/18/2010
  • Location:North of Dallas
GolfWRX Likes : 2342

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:40 PM

View PostLittleLeftToRight, on 13 June 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

The USGA should outlaw weight lifting and any other kind of physical activity. They should also require everyone who plays golf to have a beer gut, just like in the old days. That would do it.....

Nothing has changed that much aside from fitness. I was there back in the day so I know. The biggest change is information. Basically how to hit the ball further. You can thank Trackman for that.

I still have Persimmon woods. I reckon more or less that they go about as far as my modern 3 wood. Others have stated the same. My modern 3 wood is a TEE 13º. Not really much difference.

Nothing has changed that much aside from fitness?

What about the ball technology and the equipment we are using?

19

#50 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,146 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6837

Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM

View Post15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 13 June 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

The fix is truly simple (especially for the PGA):  Stop mowing fairways down to concrete-like surfaces, narrow the fairways, and grow the rough another inch or so.

{Sigh.}  Do you realize, that that "simple fix" is just a great big negative, for the quality of golf in the service of simply holding down scoring?  I mean, the USGA has done it many times before.  And they'd argue that they are trying to identify the best golfers and that narrowing fairways and growing rough puts an emphasis on accuracy and nerves and serves as a bit of a brake on distance as players try to hit narrowed fairways for fear of punitive rough.

But that's old thinking, in my view.  The new generation of history-minded golf course architects want to return to width; to give players options on the best lines and re-introduce course management and strategy.  To open up as many lines, angles and choices as possible; to make hazards more strategic and less punitive.
So in your opinion course strategy changes over time? How to best play the game changes over time? The USGA in their wisdom, as you just noted, has definitely changed what they believe to be the best challenging course setup.  Gone are the penal narrow strips of fairway that force the player to take one line off the tee and one line only. In are the wider fairways that make the player think about what line exactly would be best for that days wind and pin position.
  Why oh why oh why if on course strategy has changed and the classic courses still are a stern scoring test in spite of their relatively modest length does anything need to be changed? Is it just to preserve the ideal you seek of what club is hit into which hole?  If that is the case it seems the easiest fix would be to just renumber all clubs. no other change is needed.

PS you have never responded to other changing aspects of the game. It was definitely easier to play short game shots around the softer slower greens of the past with the balata balls of the past.  Why the obsession with length? Why not rail against fast firm greens that play so much differently than the architect designed?

TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,146 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6837

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:02 PM

View Postgvogel, on 13 June 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

Will your viewpoint change if a bunch of guys go into double digits under par?  Of course, they manipulate scores by making the greens impossible, like last time.

I would like to see the clubs used for second shots by the top 20 players in this tournament.  And how many times they skip using driver, because they don't have to.
So a better game is to have the pros just walk up to every single tee box and blindly swat away with driver because they "have to"? Is that how Hogan Sead etc played the game?
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

21

#52 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,088 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 1678

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:05 PM

View Postgvogel, on 13 June 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

Will your viewpoint change if a bunch of guys go into double digits under par?  Of course, they manipulate scores by making the greens impossible, like last time.

I would like to see the clubs used for second shots by the top 20 players in this tournament.  And how many times they skip using driver, because they don't have to.

Good point. My view would not change if there were a bunch of guys minus 10. Strike the comment from the record.

22

#53 Ashley Schaeffer

Ashley Schaeffer

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,722 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 258664
  • Joined: 06/24/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 1613

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:12 PM

View PostShilgy, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 13 June 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

The fix is truly simple (especially for the PGA):  Stop mowing fairways down to concrete-like surfaces, narrow the fairways, and grow the rough another inch or so.

{Sigh.}  Do you realize, that that "simple fix" is just a great big negative, for the quality of golf in the service of simply holding down scoring?  I mean, the USGA has done it many times before.  And they'd argue that they are trying to identify the best golfers and that narrowing fairways and growing rough puts an emphasis on accuracy and nerves and serves as a bit of a brake on distance as players try to hit narrowed fairways for fear of punitive rough.

But that's old thinking, in my view.  The new generation of history-minded golf course architects want to return to width; to give players options on the best lines and re-introduce course management and strategy.  To open up as many lines, angles and choices as possible; to make hazards more strategic and less punitive.
So in your opinion course strategy changes over time? How to best play the game changes over time? The USGA in their wisdom, as you just noted, has definitely changed what they believe to be the best challenging course setup.  Gone are the penal narrow strips of fairway that force the player to take one line off the tee and one line only. In are the wider fairways that make the player think about what line exactly would be best for that days wind and pin position.
  Why oh why oh why if on course strategy has changed and the classic courses still are a stern scoring test in spite of their relatively modest length does anything need to be changed? Is it just to preserve the ideal you seek of what club is hit into which hole?  If that is the case it seems the easiest fix would be to just renumber all clubs. no other change is needed.

PS you have never responded to other changing aspects of the game. It was definitely easier to play short game shots around the softer slower greens of the past with the balata balls of the past.  Why the obsession with length? Why not rail against fast firm greens that play so much differently than the architect designed?

Exactly.  I seriously doubt the intent of these classic architects was to have greens rolling at 14 and receiving shots like my grandmother's patio carpet over concrete.
But, we have to have them like that because scores would be too low.  
But, it's not about scoring.
But, it is.
Because, "scaling" pros to courses isn't a concern unless people are afraid of the scores they might shoot.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

23

#54 Sean2

Sean2

    #TheWRX (Callaway Trip)

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 30,077 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 29539
  • Joined: 05/23/2007
  • Location:South of Boston
  • Ebay ID:None
GolfWRX Likes : 17501

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:14 PM

Too much ego in this game. Most golfers will refuse to move up a tee box or two.
Callaway Rogue
Callaway GBB Epic 16º/20º/24º
Callaway Steelhead XR 25º
Callaway Apex CF16 6-AW
Callaway MD3/MD-PM 54º/58º
Callaway "O" Works #7

24

#55 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,627 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2153

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:19 PM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 13 June 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View PostNevinW, on 13 June 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

I'm not sure I understand one of the primary argument that is used against the idea of rolling back the ball:  That it hurts the recreational player who doesn't hit the ball far enough as it is. My question is:  Let's say they made the golf ball go 5% shorter across the board.  Why couldn't everyone play 6500 yard courses rather than 6900 yards.  Nothing else would change.  Everyone moves up a set of tees and the very back tees are eliminated.  Shorter golf courses means quicker rounds, less fertilizer and expenses.  Instead of hitting a 7 iron 160, one would hit it 152.   How would this be catastrophic to the amateur game?

Amateurs hitting a 7 iron 160 instead of 152 isn't catastrophic, either.  Nor is the current state of the game.  Change all manufacturing so amateurs will hit a 7 iron a mere 8 yards shorter?  Meh.  Can't get behind that.  Neither will OEMs.  That's why absolutely nothing will happen with the ball.

I think the USGA should focus on capping the length of courses.  The cheapest way to address the issue of courses having to buy land to add length is to disallow it.  That way, the USGA can still get its rocks off by "governing", and all of us can play golf exactly like we have for the last 20 years.

I just read the entire thread and you're the only one who actually answered the OP's question.

Everyone else immediately went straight to what they wanted to say- their same tired arguments both ways.

You are correct, there is nothing inherently wrong about a certain club going a certain distance. It simply doesn't matter. I've always said, define the specs of what can be used as a club, define the specs of what can be used as a ball, and let the engineers run wild.

Don't penalize innovation because you were too ignorant or complacent to change the rules.

Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

25

#56 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,146 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6837

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:24 PM

View PostSean2, on 13 June 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

Too much ego in this game. Most golfers will refuse to move up a tee box or two.
We had an issue at my club that backs this up. The gold tees play a bit over 6300 yards and most of the 65+ set will play those tees.  Problem is a few of the holes they could not reach in regulation. So a few brilliant minds wanted those tees moved up.  My reply to them was when the time comes I will move up to the gold tees. When they are too long I will move up to the gold black combo and then to the black when the time comes for that.  We have so many combo course ratings at our club it is crazy.  
  That said a rollback is crazy.  20% would make the typical 6600 yard playing amateur need to play the course at 5280.  Where do you go then when your distance wanes? The tees do not go much shorter than that on any old courses.  Even if it only affects the amateur 10% he now needs to play the course under 6k yards.  We did not need to play that short in the persimmon balata days.

http://offcourse.co/...nch-golf-course
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

26

#57 DFS PFD

DFS PFD

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 650 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 485676
  • Joined: 10/30/2017
  • Handicap:1.8
GolfWRX Likes : 480

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:29 PM

What's reasonable for every single golfer to be able to reach every hole in regulation? Honestly, I don't understand why everyone needs to be able to reach in reg with drives less than 200 yards. The game isn't supposed to be easy.

Maybe we need to only have executive courses.

Edited by DFS PFD, 13 June 2018 - 01:30 PM.

F8+ Kuro Kage DC 70 TX
M2 Tour 15* Kuro Kage DC 70TX
790 UDI Tensei Pro White 100TX
4-PW Nike VR Pro Blades X7's
50* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
55* MD4 Raw Tour issue S400
60* Hi-Toe Tour Issue S400
009

27

#58 farmer

farmer

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,302 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 3150

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:30 PM

To the original topic, I don't think 5% is what the rollback advocates want.  They seem to want something in the 10-20% range.  15, as example, wants to roll back the ball significantly and then have every course play like a links, firm and fast.  DFS, if you want to see the effects of aging out of your length, play your second shot first, then hit the long club.

Edited by farmer, 13 June 2018 - 01:35 PM.


28

#59 Ben Martinez

Ben Martinez

    Bird is the word

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 36 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 114796
  • Joined: 09/12/2010
  • Location:East Coast
  • Handicap:3
GolfWRX Likes : 32

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:35 PM

roll the ball back and it hurts the short hitter more than it hurts the longer hitter......you will still have a similar disparity between longest and shortest.

29

#60 clevited

clevited

    Don't think you are, know you are.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 484290
  • Joined: 10/13/2017
GolfWRX Likes : 355

Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:36 PM

View Postgvogel, on 13 June 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

What I continue to not understand is what problem the powers that be are trying to solve for.

We'll see a tournament contested over the weekend where the winning score will be slightly under par on one of the greatest architectural examples in all of golf.

But who cares if guys on the PGA Tour drive the ball 400+ yards, and post up winning scores of (-25) on courses that are purpose built (the TPC courses) for their weekly reality television show?

Will your viewpoint change if a bunch of guys go into double digits under par?  Of course, they manipulate scores by making the greens impossible, like last time.

I would like to see the clubs used for second shots by the top 20 players in this tournament.  And how many times they skip using driver, because they don't have to.

I don't understand why you have this pretty consistent issue with players NEEDING to use driver.  Lets take me vs my friend.  We both need to hit a shot 250 yards.  For him, that is a perfect full swing driver, for me that is a perfect full swing 5 wood.  We each have the same distance to cover, we are just using a different tool to accomplish it.  The ball will still be in the air for roughly the same amount of time only difference is, I am getting a slight benefit of haveing some backspin, maybe a little less side spin, and likely a slightly shorter and easier to wield club.  I have a little advantage with club choice, so what?  We still have to hit the same target we are just going about it differently.  

Would it hurt you to know I can hit my lob wedge ~150 yards or 100 or 60 or 20 any time I want?  I can also do that with a 9 iron,  I can also do that with a driver but I won't choose to do that because for me, that is not the best tool for the job.  That 150 yard lob wedge is not easy for me, it would be easier for me to use my club more suited for that distance with my full and more repeatable swing.  You are dealing with aesthetics that make no sense whatsover.  Look at Stenson.  Loves his 3 wood, loathes his driver.  So what?  Most of the time he is hurting his distance by using his 3 wood but for him that is the right club for the job.  Who cares if I play a course with only a 7 iron?  A 3 iron?  A wedge?  Do you see what I am getting at?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors