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What courses should be thrown out of the Top 100?


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#1 TadWPJ

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:02 PM

?


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#2 darkcm21

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:14 PM

Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.
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#3 teejaywhy

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:26 PM

Well, that didn't take long.

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#4 darkcm21

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:21 PM

Why? Would you agree? Haha
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#5 FairwayFred

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 06:53 AM

View Postdarkcm21, on 13 June 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.

I don't know that Lawsonia is in the top 100 but I'd vehemently disagree with you.  Lawsonia is fantastic, great set of unique greens, nice rolling land, width, strategy etc it's my favorite course in Wisconsin.  I'd play the Links over the Woodlands 100 times out of 100.

My vote goes to Spyglass Hill.  The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course.  If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.

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#6 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

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#7 FiveSixAce

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:13 AM

Probably Pine Barrens.

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#8 duffer987

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:16 AM

Spyglass was the first one that popped into my head. None of the the RTJ Trail courses are on it, so don't know why it is.

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#9 me05501

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:18 AM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

You can't possibly be serious about adding Holston Hills over The Honors.

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#10 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM

Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US.  It's not even close.  Tell us why Honors is better?  Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing?  Honors has 1-3 great holes


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#11 raynorfan1

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:31 AM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US.  It's not even close.  Tell us why Honors is better?  Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing?  Honors has 1-3 great holes

Uh. Pinehurst #2?

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#12 jerebear21

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:34 AM

View Postme05501, on 14 June 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

You can't possibly be serious about adding Holston Hills over The Honors.

holston is THAT PURE.  and I agreed with him
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#13 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:34 AM

My bad, one of the best.

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#14 CMCSGolf

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 14 June 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

View Postdarkcm21, on 13 June 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.

I don't know that Lawsonia is in the top 100 but I'd vehemently disagree with you.  Lawsonia is fantastic, great set of unique greens, nice rolling land, width, strategy etc it's my favorite course in Wisconsin.  I'd play the Links over the Woodlands 100 times out of 100.

My vote goes to Spyglass Hill.  The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course.  If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.

I agree here.  Lawsonia is the best course I've play in WI.  I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I think WI public golf is very overrated.  I would take Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and Blackwolf Run out of the top 100.  They are all nice courses that are certainly worth a play, but they are built to be difficult tournament courses that are overly penal.  To be clear, I'm not saying any of these courses are bad, but top 100 in the world is a very high bar to clear and I don't think any the normal top WI tracks do.

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#15 duffer987

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:27 PM

View PostCMCSGolf, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I agree here.  Lawsonia is the best course I've play in WI.  I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I think WI public golf is very overrated.  I would take Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and Blackwolf Run out of the top 100.  They are all nice courses that are certainly worth a play, but they are built to be difficult tournament courses that are overly penal.  To be clear, I'm not saying any of these courses are bad, but top 100 in the world is a very high bar to clear and I don't think any the normal top WI tracks do.

I'm a hack and don't find them penal. Big fan of Kohler actually, it's nice to have some 'destination resorts' where the fairways aren't 75yds wide :)
That said I did find EH to be similar to Spy in it's repetitive sloggish nature, even though there are different styles of course.

Edited by duffer987, 14 June 2018 - 12:28 PM.


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#16 CMCSGolf

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:37 PM

View Postduffer987, on 14 June 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

View PostCMCSGolf, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I agree here.  Lawsonia is the best course I've play in WI.  I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I think WI public golf is very overrated.  I would take Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and Blackwolf Run out of the top 100.  They are all nice courses that are certainly worth a play, but they are built to be difficult tournament courses that are overly penal.  To be clear, I'm not saying any of these courses are bad, but top 100 in the world is a very high bar to clear and I don't think any the normal top WI tracks do.

I'm a hack and don't find them penal. Big fan of Kohler actually, it's nice to have some 'destination resorts' where the fairways aren't 75yds wide :)
That said I did find EH to be similar to Spy in it's repetitive sloggish nature, even though there are different styles of course.

Interesting! We obviously saw different things.   Erin Hills is the hardest course I have ever played (out of 520).  I'm a decent player and the perched up nature of the greens with the usual wind made it extremely difficult.  I honestly find the courses at Blackwolf Run to be the most memorable and interesting.  The Straits has the lake, but other than that,  I found it to be uninspiring (relative to other top 100 courses) and repetitive with the traps everywhere.

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.

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#17 duffer987

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:06 PM

View PostCMCSGolf, on 14 June 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 14 June 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

View PostCMCSGolf, on 14 June 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I agree here.  Lawsonia is the best course I've play in WI.  I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I think WI public golf is very overrated.  I would take Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and Blackwolf Run out of the top 100.  They are all nice courses that are certainly worth a play, but they are built to be difficult tournament courses that are overly penal.  To be clear, I'm not saying any of these courses are bad, but top 100 in the world is a very high bar to clear and I don't think any the normal top WI tracks do.

I'm a hack and don't find them penal. Big fan of Kohler actually, it's nice to have some 'destination resorts' where the fairways aren't 75yds wide :)
That said I did find EH to be similar to Spy in it's repetitive sloggish nature, even though there are different styles of course.

Interesting! We obviously saw different things.   Erin Hills is the hardest course I have ever played (out of 520).  I'm a decent player and the perched up nature of the greens with the usual wind made it extremely difficult.  I honestly find the courses at Blackwolf Run to be the most memorable and interesting.  The Straits has the lake, but other than that,  I found it to be uninspiring (relative to other top 100 courses) and repetitive with the traps everywhere.

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.

Oh I don't think it's easy, but when I see the word 'penal' I am thinking of courses with silly carries off the tee or some long approach to a green surrounded by crocodiles and land mines. By and large you can get around those 3 courses on an off day, where you might not score too well, but you won't end up with a concussion either.

Agree it's hair splitting. Heck courses not even in the top whatever, I'll think can hold their own with those within.

I was going to play Lawsonia on my last trip to WI last Oct, but they were punching, so I went up and played the Irish instead (after a weekend at SV) and had a great time.

Edited by duffer987, 14 June 2018 - 02:07 PM.


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#18 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:15 PM

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.


Yes, there is a difference between 70th and 175.  Many make it in due exclusiveness, over maint, Championships held.  Haven't played Straits but it reminds me of Forest Dunes Original which takes 8 people a day to maint bunkers.  Eye candy galore that adds nothing to the holes except busyness.  Throw in Lake Michigan and people lose their minds.

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#19 duffer987

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:26 PM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.


Yes, there is a difference between 70th and 175.  Many make it in due exclusiveness, over maint, Championships held.  Haven't played Straits but it reminds me of Forest Dunes Original which takes 8 people a day to maint bunkers.  Eye candy galore that adds nothing to the holes except busyness.  Throw in Lake Michigan and people lose their minds.

Well if you've not played it, then you don't know yet do you ;)
And I don't think Forest Dunes is excessively bunkered, unless you are referring to the waste areas as bunkers?

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#20 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:07 PM

View Postduffer987, on 14 June 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.


Yes, there is a difference between 70th and 175.  Many make it in due exclusiveness, over maint, Championships held.  Haven't played Straits but it reminds me of Forest Dunes Original which takes 8 people a day to maint bunkers.  Eye candy galore that adds nothing to the holes except busyness.  Throw in Lake Michigan and people lose their minds.

Well if you've not played it, then you don't know yet do you ;)
And I don't think Forest Dunes is excessively bunkered, unless you are referring to the waste areas as bunkers?

I've played 3 of Pete's high ranked courses (Golf Club, Honors, Crooked), I have little desire to see more of his high end tracks.  Looking forward to playing Fowlers Mill in August, where he had a much smaller budget and limited himself from doing stupid stuff.  If waste areas are maintained like bunkers, they really aren't waste areas imo.  What does Straits have 1,000 bunkers+?


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#21 me05501

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 03:25 PM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US.  It's not even close.  Tell us why Honors is better?  Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing?  Honors has 1-3 great holes

View Postjerebear21, on 14 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postme05501, on 14 June 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

You can't possibly be serious about adding Holston Hills over The Honors.

holston is THAT PURE.  and I agreed with him


Holston is a great test. The most memorable aspects of it in my mind are its challenging length and the incredibly thick and penal Bermuda rough. It reminds me of other Ross courses with a lot of holes that feel basically the same from the player's perspective.

The Honors has more variety of holes and shot values. It can play long or short. The par fives are memorable. You can earn an advantage by working the ball both ways.

I would be happy to play either course as often as they would have me.

Like it or not, these arbitrary Top 100 rankings place significant weight on the overall experience of using a club. The Honors emphasizes its caddie program, and most of the caddies are excellent. They have the extras like on-site lodging that appeal to non-local members. The membership itself is largely non-local and non-corporate. I don't believe Holston compares on those fronts.

We can argue among ourselves that the courses themselves should be the only criteria considered in these rankings, but that isn't the case. It's the whole club being ranked.

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#22 Dizz

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:24 PM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

You don't like Scioto?  I enjoy that place.  Not sure where it sits on the Top 100 but I think it deserves to be somewhere in there.  Agree with you on adding Canton Brookside!!  One of my favorite courses anywhere... maybe my favorite course anywhere.
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#23 Dizz

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:26 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 14 June 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

View Postdarkcm21, on 13 June 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

Lawsonia links course! I know it has rich history but the course is nothing to write home about. Besides the box car hole nothing is memorable there and the other 18 is better in my opinion.

I don't know that Lawsonia is in the top 100 but I'd vehemently disagree with you.  Lawsonia is fantastic, great set of unique greens, nice rolling land, width, strategy etc it's my favorite course in Wisconsin.  I'd play the Links over the Woodlands 100 times out of 100.

My vote goes to Spyglass Hill.  The first 4/5 holes are vastly over rated and the rest of the course is a forgettable Robert Trent Jones that plays just like every other RTJ course.  If it wasn't on Monterrey it would get a whole lot less love.

Agree with every word you typed here.
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#24 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:42 PM

View Postme05501, on 14 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Holston Hills is Ross best track in SE US.  It's not even close.  Tell us why Honors is better?  Man made lake and exclusiveness ur thing?  Honors has 1-3 great holes

View Postjerebear21, on 14 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postme05501, on 14 June 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

You can't possibly be serious about adding Holston Hills over The Honors.

holston is THAT PURE.  and I agreed with him


Holston is a great test. The most memorable aspects of it in my mind are its challenging length and the incredibly thick and penal Bermuda rough. It reminds me of other Ross courses with a lot of holes that feel basically the same from the player's perspective.

The Honors has more variety of holes and shot values. It can play long or short. The par fives are memorable. You can earn an advantage by working the ball both ways.

I would be happy to play either course as often as they would have me.

Like it or not, these arbitrary Top 100 rankings place significant weight on the overall experience of using a club. The Honors emphasizes its caddie program, and most of the caddies are excellent. They have the extras like on-site lodging that appeal to non-local members. The membership itself is largely non-local and non-corporate. I don't believe Holston compares on those fronts.

We can argue among ourselves that the courses themselves should be the only criteria considered in these rankings, but that isn't the case. It's the whole club being ranked.

That's all you remember regarding HH?  First I don't think HH plays long and it plays shorter then the Honors.  There are many great holes there, great short par 4's.  The par 3's are outstanding.  The Honors is Pete Dye Cape water holes galore, how original.  Rinse and repeat.  Mid Pines is the same as HH?  Don't all Mackenzie courses look the same if you strip the lipstick on some of the famous ones?

You are basically proving my point that GD ranking are awful, they take into account fu fu nonsense.  Emotional based logic.  Forced caddie when you walk is elitist and I've caddied at as high of joints in my youth.  I know all about the membership, that means nothing.

The course is what should be ranked, not fufu stuff.

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#25 WestCoastHacker

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:48 PM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

No love for Ohio??!!

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#26 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:51 PM

View PostWestCoastHacker, on 14 June 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have 2 friends that happen to be Archies and they have Lawsonia Links in their top 10.  

I'd remove these from the GD awful list-  MVGC, OHCC S, Honors, The Golf Club, Scioto, Double Eagle, Crooked Stick, Calusa Pines.

Add-  Old Town, Canton Brookside, Orchard Lake, Mid Pines, Holston Hills, Meadowbrook, Kingsley, Kirtland, Greywalls

No love for Ohio??!!

Canton Brookside, Moraine, Kirtland are all included (Camargo and Inverness are already in top 100).  Dayton and Cleveland are vastly underrated while Cbus is extremely overrated.  Looking forward to seeing the new Columbus CC (might be best in cbus).  I'm a native Ohioan

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#27 duffer987

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:13 PM

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 14 June 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

View PostTadWPJ, on 14 June 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, it should be noted that once you get outside the top 25-50 courses, you are really splitting hairs.  Is there really much of a difference between course 75 and 175?  I would argue probably not and any difference in quality is due to the preferences of the rater rather than the inherent quality of the course.  Straits isn't for me but other people love it.  I'll take my $350 and play for a weekend at Lawsonia and that is what makes these lists so vexing.


Yes, there is a difference between 70th and 175.  Many make it in due exclusiveness, over maint, Championships held.  Haven't played Straits but it reminds me of Forest Dunes Original which takes 8 people a day to maint bunkers.  Eye candy galore that adds nothing to the holes except busyness.  Throw in Lake Michigan and people lose their minds.

Well if you've not played it, then you don't know yet do you ;)
And I don't think Forest Dunes is excessively bunkered, unless you are referring to the waste areas as bunkers?

I've played 3 of Pete's high ranked courses (Golf Club, Honors, Crooked), I have little desire to see more of his high end tracks.  Looking forward to playing Fowlers Mill in August, where he had a much smaller budget and limited himself from doing stupid stuff.  If waste areas are maintained like bunkers, they really aren't waste areas imo.  What does Straits have 1,000 bunkers+?

So you are referring to the large expanses of sand that is used to frame/separate the holes? Personally I think it's fine, groomed or not. Would you rather it be long grass or water hazards instead?
Sure I can see that the gazzillion bunkers aren't to everyone's taste, they went for the big Irish dunes pastiche, and that was part of how/why they did it. Some places I think they pulled it off, others not so much.

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#28 thegoomba

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:01 PM

Torrey south

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#29 raynorfan1

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:44 PM

The thing that's impossible about this topic is that Golf Digest (or whomever) has defined what they think is greatness in a golf course. These factors include "resistance to scoring"; "aesthetics" (read: scenery); and "ambience" (read: fu fu / pedigree).

You can't say that a course doesn't belong on the GD Top 100 list because it's too hard. That's why it made the list in the first place. It actually belongs, by definition, because it's too hard. Same with scenery or fufu service. It's like saying Pine Valley doesn't belong so high up, because it doesn't have an ocean view. All depends on the criteria.

If you don't like the criteria...write your own list.

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#30 TadWPJ

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:14 PM

Raynor,

Have done my own list with 18 other for a few states. We influenced GD best in state, so I don't just complain.  Having criteria is bad imo.  



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