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Face Awareness - What Works For You?


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#1 IUBB

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 07:32 PM

Curious to hear from people who have good awareness of where the face is rotationally throughout the golf swing - and specifically at impact.  I would be considered an ok player, but I'm an inconsistent ball striker and struggle with this concept.  

I feel like I'm getting there.  I've worked on my swing a lot over the last 1.5 years so have played around with my grip a bit.  A weaker right hand and stronger left hand seems to help.  Also, I chip a lot right-handed chip shots to practice which really helps.

So for those of you who are good at this - is the feeling more in your right or left hand?  Or both?  For me, it seems like it may be the right index finger / knuckle - especially true with the weaker right hand.

Edited by IUBB, 11 June 2018 - 07:34 PM.


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#2 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:45 AM

I'm interested in this as well. I feel like i have zero face control.  Maybe it's because for me, the "release"  has become more about trail hand flexion than any rotational aspect of the motion.  (Right or wrong), the rotation is purely a consequence.  

Now,  while the last person you probably want to hear from, I have seemed to notice something.   I wont call it "control" but the closest correlation I've felt to the resulting face orientation at impact (for me) seems to be more in line with how the lead shoulder moves through impact then what the hands/wrists (try to) do.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 June 2018 - 09:47 AM.


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#3 Ghostwedge

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:17 AM

This is probably to simplistic but with the irons it's about the back of my glove logo and the clubface aligned thru impact.
Am never aware of what my hands are doing. Hit pretty straight shots, slight draw or fade depending on set up.

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#4 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:22 AM

Oddly, I have no clue where the clubface is pointing at any time during the swing ACCEPT AT IMPACT! Nor do I care. The less I think about, the better my results are.

I have worked for years to establish a grip and setup that allows the release to simply happen without my having to think much at all. I simply setup for the shot and swing the club.

BT

Edited by Ri_Redneck, 12 June 2018 - 10:23 AM.


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#5 IUBB

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:48 AM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 12 June 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

Oddly, I have no clue where the clubface is pointing at any time during the swing ACCEPT AT IMPACT! Nor do I care. The less I think about, the better my results are.

I have worked for years to establish a grip and setup that allows the release to simply happen without my having to think much at all. I simply setup for the shot and swing the club.

BT

Yep, I get that.  That's been the case for me as well.  I've just had an issue over the last couple seasons of having a clubface that is a couple degrees open on mishits.  I've toyed around with a ton of different drills and concepts and it goes a way for a bit and then creeps back in.  Lateral movement is a big thing for me - in that I get a bit jumpy instead of rotating properly.  Clubs drops, hips go forward, right side collapses, club face never catches up like it should, and I get a result that's about a club short and 10 yards right of target.  

It does seem though that the best ball strikers have really good face awareness through impact.  Previously, I would say that's something I never really thought about or focused on.  I'm trying to get a better feel for it this year.

Edited by IUBB, 12 June 2018 - 11:49 AM.


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#6 Swisstrader98

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 12:37 PM

Do not think about the club face!!



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#7 getitdaily

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 01:05 PM

A mirror has worked for me for years! Wacks wacka

For me, the first 2 feet of the backswing is all I tend to worry about. If my grip is good and those 2 feet are solid then I'm usually going to hit it well. I have been battling an open face at impact lately tho, believe it's tied to rhythm and tempo.

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#8 IUBB

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 02:57 PM

View PostSwisstrader98, on 12 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Do not think about the club face!!

I hear you, but a recent podcast with Lucas Glover peaked my interest.  He was talking about not wearing a glove when he plays.  He said something like if he wore a glove he was about a 15 handicap because he had no concept of face awareness.

Now, Lucas Glover has always been known as a really great ball striker.  I just thought it was interesting that face awareness was what he attributed to his ability to hit good vs. bad shots.  

I would be really curious to hear from the teaching pros on this subject if they find the time to respond.

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#9 oikos1

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 04:25 PM

View PostIUBB, on 12 June 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

View PostSwisstrader98, on 12 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Do not think about the club face!!

I hear you, but a recent podcast with Lucas Glover peaked my interest.  He was talking about not wearing a glove when he plays.  He said something like if he wore a glove he was about a 15 handicap because he had no concept of face awareness.

Now, Lucas Glover has always been known as a really great ball striker.  I just thought it was interesting that face awareness was what he attributed to his ability to hit good vs. bad shots.  

I would be really curious to hear from the teaching pros on this subject if they find the time to respond.

So think about that.  Do you want to listen to a "really great" ball striker or random internet blurts.

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#10 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 05:43 PM

View PostIUBB, on 12 June 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 12 June 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

Oddly, I have no clue where the clubface is pointing at any time during the swing ACCEPT AT IMPACT! Nor do I care. The less I think about, the better my results are.

I have worked for years to establish a grip and setup that allows the release to simply happen without my having to think much at all. I simply setup for the shot and swing the club.

BT

Yep, I get that.  That's been the case for me as well.  I've just had an issue over the last couple seasons of having a clubface that is a couple degrees open on mishits.  I've toyed around with a ton of different drills and concepts and it goes a way for a bit and then creeps back in.  Lateral movement is a big thing for me - in that I get a bit jumpy instead of rotating properly.  Clubs drops, hips go forward, right side collapses, club face never catches up like it should, and I get a result that's about a club short and 10 yards right of target.  

It does seem though that the best ball strikers have really good face awareness through impact.  Previously, I would say that's something I never really thought about or focused on.  I'm trying to get a better feel for it this year.
I have the same issues due to a core that is not as strong as it should be and painful joints. Some days I'm on and my swing feels the same every time. Others it seems like I've never swing a club. Very frustrating indeed. Best cure is swinging as often as possible and hitting balls every chance I get. I find I play much better when the muscle memory is running the show.

Have to also remember we're human and a degree or two in alignment is almost impossible for us to see when setting up.

BT


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#11 FatReed

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:11 PM

This thread is a perfect example of a failure to understand that FORCE DEFORMS (Frozen Divots).

The notion that slow motion swings in front of a mirror reflect anything close to the reality of a FULL swing is giving chase BIG time. . . the true ‘golf swing illusion;’ delusion, really.

The best way to improve at golf is to play golf (at FULL speed) with proper focus!

You cannot ‘control’ the club face! You do not want to try and control the club face!! There is so much truth to Knudson’s statement: ‘give up control to gain control.’

One other important aspect that is lost in this thread - and most others related on WRX - is what is happening in a swing (e.g., driver) that generates 85 mph club head speed is significantly different than one generating 105 mph club head speed. Not just in terms of sequencing but, importantly, also with regard to deforming (torquing) shaft. . . which goes hand and hand with speed generated.

Most (insufficient) golfers are predominantly ‘twisting’ the shaft around the club head COG, while the most proficient golfers are ‘torquing’ (deforming) the shaft. Of course, this pertains to the full swing, and will never be appreciated or - in most cases - ever learned in anything less.

Green-side short game a different story but, even in short game, golfers STILL struggle with concept that - in a non-torqued shaft - the shaft rotates around the COG, and NOT vice versa. . . and struggle, in general.

Learn to torque the shaft; not twist the shaft around the club head COG. Give up control to gain control.

There is a huge fallacy that has been propagated through the golfing world over the years. . . namely, that the club face can be ‘too open’ at the top of backswing. This is only true if you are dependent upon shaft twisting around club head COG . . . which is true of most insufficient golfers. If you are torquing the shaft - to create proper angular momentum - then the club face becomes a complete non-concern.

Please watch again. This guy is a genius. . . and phenomenal golfer!






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#12 IUBB

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:27 PM

View Postoikos1, on 12 June 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

View PostIUBB, on 12 June 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

View PostSwisstrader98, on 12 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Do not think about the club face!!

I hear you, but a recent podcast with Lucas Glover peaked my interest.  He was talking about not wearing a glove when he plays.  He said something like if he wore a glove he was about a 15 handicap because he had no concept of face awareness.

Now, Lucas Glover has always been known as a really great ball striker.  I just thought it was interesting that face awareness was what he attributed to his ability to hit good vs. bad shots.  

I would be really curious to hear from the teaching pros on this subject if they find the time to respond.

So think about that.  Do you want to listen to a "really great" ball striker or random internet blurts.

No i get it.  I just thought some of the better players on this forum could provide some insight or elaborate on something that works for them.  The "really great" ball striker didn't elaborate much other than not wanting to wear a glove.

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#13 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:14 AM

View PostFatReed, on 12 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

This guy is a genius

Not when it comes to his understanding of physics.   It might work well as an intent thought for some people - but the connection with reality is tenuous at best.

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#14 finleysg

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:19 AM

I know exactly where my club face is at impact -- problem is that knowledge comes to me about one or two seconds after impact.
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#15 juststeve

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:08 AM

I was taught to make it my intention to return the club to its address position at impact.  Although that is my intention it doesn't actually happen.  Because of the speed of the arms in the forward swing we arrive at impact with the grip end of  the club forward of where it was at address, face square to target and forward shaft lean.   The intention nevertheless is to get the club back into the address position.  Sam Snead also used this thought when his swing went off.

A useful drill, done slowly, is to swing the club head over your trail shoulder with both hands, then using your arms to return the club to its starting position, being careful that the face is square to the target.  You will gain awareness of what a square club face feels like, a good thing.

Steve


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#16 FatReed

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM

View PostStuart G., on 13 June 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

View PostFatReed, on 12 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

This guy is a genius

Not when it comes to his understanding of physics.   It might work well as an intent thought for some people - but the connection with reality is tenuous at best.

If you do not understand Frozen Divots video, then you do not understand energy transfer. Optimal transfer happens at a level with NO mass, so physical laws aren’t what you (most) think and try to comprehend/apply accordingly in the golf swing.

Optimally, the club head does not inherit angular momentum until the shaft kicks (trips). A properly loaded (torqued) shaft is VERY different than a shaft twisted about the club head COG, or club head ‘thrown’ into angular momentum.

As a starting point, consider this question: Does as stick with one heavy end transmit energy the same as a wheel with weight on its outer rim?

The club is a stick, not a wheel. A stick ‘flips’ and a wheel does not. Golfers largely treat the golf club like a wheel, ‘throwing’ the club head into angular momentum.

The connection to reality is not tenuous at all. It’s physics, and only becomes tenuous when you are committed to refuting something you don’t understand. . . or even TRY to understand.

From here, it’s up to you to do some digging.

Finally, for the record, I am not an ABS guy. Never once a member; never once posted on ABS website forum. In fact, ABS is the ultimate example of throwing the club into angular momentum (like a wheel). . . then working their *ss off to try and contain it or, as Erickson promotes, trying to HOLD LAG PRESSURE. It’s not what their hero Hogan did, and is far from efficient. . . but it’s one way to do it.

FR

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#17 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:37 AM

View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

f you do not understand Frozen Divots video, then you do not understand energy transfer.

I'd be happy to put my credentials up against his any time.

View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Optimal transfer happens at a level with NO mass, so physical laws aren't what you (most) think and try to comprehend/apply accordingly in the golf swing.

Complete nonsense.  Without mass there is no Kinetic energy or K.E. transfer - well at least in Newtonian Physics and I assume you don't want to try to drag the golf swing into the realm of relativity or particle physics.  Sorry but no one has that kind of swing speed.

Normally, I would go through your whole post and point out the specific errors and help clear up people's understanding of the underlying physics but quite frankly (sorry to say) it doesn't get any better than this first statement so there would be little point (and it would take way more time than I'm willing to spend on it).  Even your attempt to use an example (stick vs wheel) is meaningless without a significant amount of additional details - actual forces and torques - where and when they are being applied, mass and mass distributions (MOI) of the objects, etc.   And BTW the distinction between "flip" and "throw" is ambiguous at best so completely meaningless terms in any attempt to explain a point.

The actual connection of those thoughts to real physics is at best distorted and ill formed, at worst it's a complete illusion.  The description is so poorly worded it's impossible to tell which.

BUT .. if (for whatever reason) those thoughts actually help you with your swing, then that's great. I'm not implying you should stop using them. As far as I'm concerned, go ahead and use whatever gets the job done.  Understanding why the thoughts work is nice and can help some, but it's hardly a requirement.


View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Finally, for the record, I am not an ABS guy.

For the record, I don't even know what it means to be "an ABS guy" (and frankly I doubt I really care what it means).

Edited by Stuart G., 14 June 2018 - 08:00 AM.


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#18 uitar9

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:59 AM

View PostSwisstrader98, on 12 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Do not think about the club face!!
This. I try to start setup with my club face in a position I think is correct. Then I apply what ever learning I have picked up from books, videos, instructors and forums and hope like hell the club face hits the ball in the direction I want.

I can barely remember one swing thought.
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#19 Atrayn

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:05 AM

I am aware of the face only at setup as I always align the face behind my ball to my intended line.
During the swing, I am aware of my intention to close the face only when I am hitting intended hooks or holding it open more for a fade.

I always rehearse the overall feel of what I'm trying to do with my entire swing more than specifically with the face. I know if the setup is right and the overall motion is correct then the face reacts accordingly.
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#20 FatReed

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:53 AM

View PostStuart G., on 14 June 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

f you do not understand Frozen Divots video, then you do not understand energy transfer.

I'd be happy to put my credentials up against his any time.

View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Optimal transfer happens at a level with NO mass, so physical laws aren't what you (most) think and try to comprehend/apply accordingly in the golf swing.

Complete nonsense.  Without mass there is no Kinetic energy or K.E. transfer - well at least in Newtonian Physics and I assume you don't want to try to drag the golf swing into the realm of relativity or particle physics.  Sorry but no one has that kind of swing speed.

Normally, I would go through your whole post and point out the specific errors and help clear up people's understanding of the underlying physics but quite frankly (sorry to say) it doesn't get any better than this first statement so there would be little point (and it would take way more time than I'm willing to spend on it).  Even your attempt to use an example (stick vs wheel) is meaningless without a significant amount of additional details - actual forces and torques - where and when they are being applied, mass and mass distributions (MOI) of the objects, etc.   And BTW the distinction between "flip" and "throw" is ambiguous at best so completely meaningless terms in any attempt to explain a point.

The actual connection of those thoughts to real physics is at best distorted and ill formed, at worst it's a complete illusion.  The description is so poorly worded it's impossible to tell which.

BUT .. if (for whatever reason) those thoughts actually help you with your swing, then that's great. I'm not implying you should stop using them. As far as I'm concerned, go ahead and use whatever gets the job done.  Understanding why the thoughts work is nice and can help some, but it's hardly a requirement.


View PostFatReed, on 13 June 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Finally, for the record, I am not an ABS guy.

For the record, I don't even know what it means to be "an ABS guy" (and frankly I doubt I really care what it means).

StuartG wrote: I'd be happy to put my credentials up against his any time.

*****

Stuart

Honestly, that statement says everything. Anything beyond that statement is made irrelevant.

Life has not yet humbled you, and I’m not going to be the one to offer you the experience. . . although I could, that would serve as an indictment against my own humility.

Best.

FR


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#21 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:16 AM

View PostFatReed, on 14 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

StuartG wrote: I'd be happy to put my credentials up against his any time.

*****

Stuart

Honestly, that statement says everything. Anything beyond that statement is made irrelevant.

Life has not yet humbled you, and I'm not going to be the one to offer you the experience. . . although I could, that would serve as an indictment against my own humility.

Best.

FR

Lots of things in life have humbled me (not that I expect you to take my word for it). Just because his "understanding" of physics hasn't means very little other than a display of a certain level of self-confidence that I have.   Confidence which BTW has been earned through a lot of time and study and hard work.   And confidence and Humility are not really mutually exclusive traits.   But I have no problem leaving it to the readers to make their own judgement on whether that confidence is warranted or not - whether it be from this thread or anything in my posting history.

Take care.

Edited by Stuart G., 14 June 2018 - 09:28 AM.


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#22 Nard_S

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:00 AM

I generally not face aware in the full swing but on chips, pitches & putts find it useful to be. I key on the inner & outer side of my knuckles.

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#23 MadGolfer76

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 10:04 AM

I'm pretty accurate with my striking, and I couldn't give a toss where the face is during the swing.

Too much thinking...
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#24 mfm22

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:36 PM

I put the left hand on grip first [ most use right hand then left ] - have a feel for the back of left hand and club face  being parallel -  ground club and bow wrist to check relationship -

Never think about it after that ...... Tried thinking right palm but I can get ' scoopy " doing that    best is back of left hand & right palm down covering ball -  hands have to be forward of club head
works well with irons

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#25 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:45 PM

FatReed has robbed me of 6 minutes of my life. That has to be the most stupid video I have ever seen.

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#26 FourTops

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 06:43 PM

View PostIUBB, on 11 June 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

Curious to hear from people who have good awareness of where the face is rotationally throughout the golf swing - and specifically at impact.  I would be considered an ok player, but I'm an inconsistent ball striker and struggle with this concept.  

I feel like I'm getting there.  I've worked on my swing a lot over the last 1.5 years so have played around with my grip a bit.  A weaker right hand and stronger left hand seems to help.  Also, I chip a lot right-handed chip shots to practice which really helps.

So for those of you who are good at this - is the feeling more in your right or left hand?  Or both?  For me, it seems like it may be the right index finger / knuckle - especially true with the weaker right hand.

You can easily test how the club will square or not with an impact bag

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