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What is with the Hating on the USGA?


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#61 rangersgoalie

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 12:31 AM

The dislike of the USGA started a long time ago with the elitist, smug countenance they presented.

Some of that carries over, even though they have made strides in being more inclusive.

I played in a few USGA events, and the worst one was a US Open.
The best?  The two Publinx championships.  Good courses, great atmosphere for the players.
Kind of ironic to me

The attitude at the Open was so condescending, and the golf course, which I had played numerous times previously
Was IMO......please note in my opinion!!, awful.  Dead spots were painted green on the greens, and some of the narrowing, really negatively impacted the course playing lines.  And this was early 90's fwiw.

BTW, my conspiracy theory was that Erin Hills was the ultimate rope a dope.
Long course, crazy wide fairways, big greens, meticulous hole location date (making greens books even more effective).
Play an enormous course, let guys shoot the lights out, cry "the sky is falling, we can't make a course hard or long enough!!!!"
And start serious roll back movement.   Given my conspiracy, the USGA would actually be pretty damned smart if they did that!!


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#62 caniac6

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 05:06 AM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 11 June 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

View Postgolfgirlrobin, on 11 June 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

I think it’s their general smugness and sense of self importance that bother me the most.  The way they act like they’re the only ones who care about the integrity of the game.  

It’s unfortunate that you have to watch one of the great events in golf waiting for the bureaucrats to insert themselves into the drama.

Agreed.  They also bungled a penalty at the US Women's Open that year with waiting too long to assess a penalty and notifying players out of sequence.  It's basically laughable that the PGA Tour is better at applying the USGA's rules than the USGA.
I believe the PGA rules officials are all professional, and many of the USGA rules officials are volunteers.

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#63 ray9898

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:16 AM

Why all the hate?  It is cool to 'outrage' these days.  People get up every day looking for something to jump on and go viral.

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#64 lawsonman

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:35 AM

I've listened to Mike Davis on numerous occasions explain the USGA's actions AND inactions. A lot of words come out but I'm never really sure what he said. No one can screw up a course or a ruling like the USGA.
Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

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#65 Kevinx

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:39 AM

It's cause Mike Davis is an idiot. No special exempt for Retif Goosen but gives one to Erie Els and Furyik. The setup at Shinnecock will be so hard  and take the players 6 hours to play will be boring and unwatchable. Us open is the worst major.


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#66 Kevinx

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:44 AM

US Opens should be played on public courses only. Not on private courses can afford to fix the course themselves but look for the USGA to do it for them.

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#67 bladehunter

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:49 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 June 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 11 June 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 11 June 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

View PostEKELLY, on 11 June 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

Is it because the Tour players have become a bunch of little bitches? The US Open is supposed to be tough.  Yes, Chambers was a bad call, and Erin was a joke, but everyone played the same course. I grew up playing Shinnecock Hills. They could protect par if they wanted to. We'll see how it plays out!.....

I find the complaining about courses to be a tad repetitive and annoying too. Players tend to nitpick a couple of things and then post them on twitter or whatever. A couple of years ago there was the video of the player showing a ball rolling for 10 yards past the hole on the practice green, or the guy dribbling a golf ball on the grass to show how hard it was.....but once the tournament started you didn't see stuff like that

I actually think the USGA has done a good job setting up courses and thinking progressively , Davis has pioneered adding drive-able par 4's most years etc....

But they are just such idiots in other ways it's hard to like them. I mean  when they were like "We've listened to Dustin Johnson, we've listened to his playing partner, we've listened to the rules official on the course, everyone says he did nothing wrong.....that being said, we're giving him a penalty 'cause you know, we can do that sh*t if we want"....I mean they deserve to be ridiculed

Anyone please correct me if my memory is faulty.  I remember a rules official approaching DJ a few holes after the incident, telling him "hey, we're looking at it, but we don't know what we are going to do about it yet", and essentially telling the leader in the final round of a freaking US Open that he can't know where he stands, MID-ROUND, until they make a decision. "You might be ahead by one or two, but we don't know yet.  Good luck on the next few holes, bro."  

That was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen, ruling wise.

Yeah, your memory is faulty.  And so since what you have recounted, fake quotes and all, didnít happen in that way, all the rest isnít worth talking about.

Pretty much exactly how it happened.  

Walk-ing official was called  over.  Dj told him what he saw happen.  Playing partner Westwood was asked. He backed up dj.  Walking official said replace it and play on.  No penalty.

Around 10 11 12 ( forget which hole) heís notified they are looking at it on tape and he maybe penalized.  During the back 9 of the us open heís told he ď maybe penalized ď.  

Plenty of players would have folded or at least given up some strokes at that point.  I donít think you mention it to a player unless there is a decision.  They tell hi he will need to review it himself after the round.  Indicating that they intend for him to call the penalty on himself.  Which is a huge red flag in my book.  He already gave his account of what he saw.  Official who was watching agreed as did his playing partner.  No need to look at it afterwards.  Easily as huge of a fubar as 04 greens fiasco. Which they blamed on the Shinnecock super.
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#68 TheInfidel

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:09 AM

View PostInTheHole, on 11 June 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

I've been listening to PGA Tour Radio more lately- seems to be some serious hatred for the USGA, especially from Hank Haney on his show.  Not sure I understand it completely- what did I miss?

What did you miss?  Two words: Chambers Bay.  

Mike Davis wears a rainbow wig and giant shoes in his office he's such a clown and Diana Murphy spent her entire tenure in post drunk as a racoon in a barrel of cider.  Google it for the full car crash event.  

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#69 golfgirlrobin

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:37 AM

View PostKevinx, on 12 June 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

It's cause Mike Davis is an idiot. No special exempt for Retif Goosen but gives one to Erie Els and Furyik. The setup at Shinnecock will be so hard  and take the players 6 hours to play will be boring and unwatchable. Us open is the worst major.

They already gave RG a special exemption in 2016.  You can argue that they should have saved it for this year, but it’s tough to argue that he should get two.
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#70 MtlJeff

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:54 AM

View Postgolfgirlrobin, on 12 June 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

View PostKevinx, on 12 June 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

It's cause Mike Davis is an idiot. No special exempt for Retif Goosen but gives one to Erie Els and Furyik. The setup at Shinnecock will be so hard  and take the players 6 hours to play will be boring and unwatchable. Us open is the worst major.

They already gave RG a special exemption in 2016.  You can argue that they should have saved it for this year, but itís tough to argue that he should get two.

I think they told Goosen they have considered his opinion and will let him know once the tournament has started if he gets one or not....like around the 14th hole on Saturday.


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#71 North Butte

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:57 AM

This thread is a bit like asking the caddies at Bushwood whatís with the hating on Judge Smails.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#72 QMany

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:04 AM

They love to interject themselves into the storyline, when it should be about the players and the course.

They seem to make decisions and then search for "evidence" to help support their position (grooves, anchoring, etc.). If you listened to Live at the US Open last night, it is obvious Mike Davis has a hard-on for the ball and greens books. Without anything to support the decision, I expect them to rule imprudently on those two issues soon.
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#73 bladehunter

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:08 AM

View PostMtlJeff, on 12 June 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

View Postgolfgirlrobin, on 12 June 2018 - 07:37 AM, said:

View PostKevinx, on 12 June 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

It's cause Mike Davis is an idiot. No special exempt for Retif Goosen but gives one to Erie Els and Furyik. The setup at Shinnecock will be so hard  and take the players 6 hours to play will be boring and unwatchable. Us open is the worst major.

They already gave RG a special exemption in 2016.  You can argue that they should have saved it for this year, but it's tough to argue that he should get two.

I think they told Goosen they have considered his opinion and will let him know once the tournament has started if he gets one or not....like around the 14th hole on Saturday.


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#74 North Butte

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:08 AM

View PostQMany, on 12 June 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

They love to interject themselves into the storyline, when it should be about the players and the course.

They seem to make decisions and then search for "evidence" to help support their position (grooves, anchoring, etc.). If you listened to Live at the US Open last night, it is obvious Mike Davis has a hard-on for the ball and greens books. Without anything to support the decision, I expect them to rule imprudently on those two issues soon.

Exactly. Rangefinders were outlawed for decades because some stuffed shirt at R&A didn't want to look out his office and see people using them on the Old Course. All these so-called economic and "growth of the game" arguments are post hoc rationalization for 100% purely emotional desires on the part of a few people we've granted unearned authority over how the game is played.

They are going to "do something about the ball" real soon now. I predict that when they do, it will be the beginning of the end of USGA's relevance as anything beyond an organization that sponsors some tournaments. They will have finally squandered their last vestige of relevance to the mainstream of the game if they roll the ball performance back by something like 20%, whether for everyone or try to do it just as "elite competitive events".

Edited by North Butte, 12 June 2018 - 08:09 AM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#75 lawsonman

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:20 AM

Excellent post!

Welcome to where dumb opinions are better than no opinion. :)

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#76 jdl

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:32 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 June 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostBarfolomew, on 11 June 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

The boys are pissed they cant wear shorts....

It's 65 degrees. Thy are wearing long sleeves today. Wtf ?

Phil is a trendsetter!

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#77 3whacker

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:32 AM

my problem with the USGA and he Open is that it doesn't identify the BEST golfers consistently..we usually get the obscure winner who we never hear from again, but for that one week in June, they find a way to pull out a win..Do I want to see the names always win it....of course not..but then I dont want to see 80 % of the field eliminated  before the first ball is hit

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#78 davep043

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:48 AM

View Post3whacker, on 12 June 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

my problem with the USGA and he Open is that it doesn't identify the BEST golfers consistently..we usually get the obscure winner who we never hear from again, but for that one week in June, they find a way to pull out a win..Do I want to see the names always win it....of course not..but then I dont want to see 80 % of the field eliminated  before the first ball is hit
Wait a minute.  On one hand, you say we get a number of winners who were nobody before, and who fade back to obscurity later.  I agree with that.  Then you suggest that only 20% of the field has a chance.  Aren't those nobodies part of the big 80% that gets eliminated?

Edited by davep043, 12 June 2018 - 10:49 AM.


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#79 QMany

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:54 AM

View Post3whacker, on 12 June 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

my problem with the USGA and he Open is that it doesn't identify the BEST golfers consistently..we usually get the obscure winner who we never hear from again, but for that one week in June, they find a way to pull out a win..Do I want to see the names always win it....of course not..but then I dont want to see 80 % of the field eliminated  before the first ball is hit

Michael Campbell is the only one that comes to mind.

Graeme McDowell is a Ryder Cup stalwart and had 5 Top-20s in the 7 majors before his US Open win.
Webb Simpson was 13th in OWGR and had 2 PGA Tour wins in the 10 months before his US Open win.
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#80 15th Club

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:25 AM

View Post3whacker, on 12 June 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

my problem with the USGA and he Open is that it doesn't identify the BEST golfers consistently..we usually get the obscure winner who we never hear from again, but for that one week in June, they find a way to pull out a win..Do I want to see the names always win it....of course not..but then I dont want to see 80 % of the field eliminated  before the first ball is hit

We sometimes, rarely, get an obscure winner.  Not because those winners played poorly and got lucky; but rather because the US Open gives them a chance to play in the first place.


Jack Fleck got into the US Open as a qualifier.  And then he went on to play against Ben Hogan head-up and won.


Michael Campbell; already mentioned.


Some might have thought Andy North was obscure.  Until he won another US Open, which is one more than Dustin Johnson (so far) Brooks Koepka (so far) or Jordan Speith (so far).  Ditto, Lee Janzen.  And Julius Boros.


If your measurement for an "obscure" winner of the US Open is someone whose only major victory is a single US Open, that list includes people who were mostly multiple winners on Tour, were competitive in other majors, and who really weren't all that obscure; Tom Kite; Corey Pavin; Jerry Pate; Lou Graham; Ken Venturi, etc,


Your "obscure" list is confined to about two or three names in the last 60 years.  You need to go back more than 60 years, to find winners like Jack Fleck, Dick Mayer and Ed Furgol.


So you say that you have a problem with the USGA.  But the facts don't support "your problem."


You know why you don't see "obscure" players winning the Masters?  Because "obscure" players never get invited, or rarely.  And yet, would you have had "a problem" with an obscure Danny Willett winning a US Open?  An obscure Larry Mize winning a US Open?


I don't know about you, but I WANT our national championship conducted by the USGA to be open, with qualifiers.  And when you do that, once in a great while a qualifier will win.


Edited by 15th Club, 12 June 2018 - 11:26 AM.


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#81 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:31 AM

15th, do you agree with the way the USGA handled the DJ situation in 2016?
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#82 ex0dus

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:37 AM

The groove rule was a joke. Chambers Bay, likewise.  The anchoring ban, another joke. Anchoring was fine until someone won a major, then all of a sudden the USGA decided to ban anchoring because they didn't like the way it looked. And of course the rule was a mess which why there is still controversy about anchoring. The DJ ruling....ugh.

During the Open Championship you hardly ever hear anyone mention the R&A. During the US Open the USGA it is exactly the opposit.
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#83 DFS PFD

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:44 AM

Honest ignorance here, with an honest question, what organization was behind the Lexi Thompson ruling? That was the most atrocious decision I've heard about in professional golf, and painful to watch.
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#84 davep043

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:47 AM

For those who "hate" the USGA, can you suggest an alternative?  

You hate the rules, too complicated.  Have you read the new rules?  They're MUCH easier to read, but I do wonder if they're enough to address all of the potential situations.  But if not the USGA, who should write the rules of the game?  

As for pro's who can't get the rules right, most of the mistakes are on the simplest things.  Where can I drop when taking relief from a water hazard?  Do I really have to put the ball back exactly where I lifted it?  It seems that many pros have never learned the rules that most of us know by heart, they're too lazy to actually read them.

You hate the Handicap System, it either encourages sandbagging by allowing self-posting, or it doesn't allow you to post your solo rounds.  It seems like they've split things down the middle, so there are complaints from both sides.  But really, how would YOU run it, and who should have control if not the USGA?

We have a thread here covering 68 pages or more, asking if distance has ruined the PGA tour, but you find it ludicrous that the USGA is researching the effects of distance on golf.  Have you gone to the USGA website, read some of the data collected so far?  Should the USGA simply ignore a topic that's important enough to merit 68 pages of discussion here?

There's no question that the USGA has mis-handled some rule situations in their tournaments, and has made what turn out to be poor choices in courses and/or set-ups.  Yet some posters here want to see MORE public courses used, courses like Chambers Bay and Erin Hills.  Maybe we should just eliminate the US Open, along with the entire USGA.  But what do you want to put in place to perform the jobs that really do need to be done?

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#85 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM

Hating the USGA because they don't represent the best interests of the vast majority of golfers...Us! Their predominant focus is based on the PGA Tour, and elitists of golf. Furthermore they lied when they say there was overwhelming support for a global handicap system... There most certainly was not!

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5, 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM.


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#86 15th Club

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostDFS PFD, on 12 June 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Honest ignorance here, with an honest question, what organization was behind the Lexi Thompson ruling? That was the most atrocious decision I've heard about in professional golf, and painful to watch.

Honest, clear answer: it was the USGA.

And the USGA supplied a completely public accounting of the ruling, and the reaction, HERE.  I commend it to you, straight up.

I thought it was the correct ruling.  I have absolutely no problem, with any golf ruling as long as it is the right ruling.  I don't care if it was caught by a tv assistant director, or a commentator, or a former USGA executive having a cocktail at home in Florida on his big-screen.

And by the way; what other sports league or front office is as transparent as the USGA?

Edit.; yes, the event was the ANA Inspiration, an LPGA-sanctioned event.  That's probably a better answer, if you are asking who imposed the ruling.  The Rules of Golf were obviously "behind the ruling."  Too much USGA-defense on my mind this week, a/k/a "USGA Hateweek."

Edited by 15th Club, 12 June 2018 - 11:56 AM.


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#87 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostDFS PFD, on 12 June 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Honest ignorance here, with an honest question, what organization was behind the Lexi Thompson ruling? That was the most atrocious decision I've heard about in professional golf, and painful to watch.

ANA is put on by the LPGA Tour according to Wikipedia.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

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#88 15th Club

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:53 AM

View Postex0dus, on 12 June 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

The groove rule was a joke. Chambers Bay, likewise.  The anchoring ban, another joke. Anchoring was fine until someone won a major, then all of a sudden the USGA decided to ban anchoring because they didn't like the way it looked. And of course the rule was a mess which why there is still controversy about anchoring. The DJ ruling....ugh.

During the Open Championship you hardly ever hear anyone mention the R&A. During the US Open the USGA it is exactly the opposit.

I have made it a personal policy to challenge anyone, anytime they say something like, "the groove rule was a joke."  My usual habit and custom is to first ask, "Why do you think it was a joke?"

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#89 canonlbp430

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:56 AM

View Postcaniac6, on 12 June 2018 - 05:06 AM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 11 June 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

View Postgolfgirlrobin, on 11 June 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

I think it’s their general smugness and sense of self importance that bother me the most.  The way they act like they’re the only ones who care about the integrity of the game.  

It’s unfortunate that you have to watch one of the great events in golf waiting for the bureaucrats to insert themselves into the drama.

Agreed.  They also bungled a penalty at the US Women's Open that year with waiting too long to assess a penalty and notifying players out of sequence.  It's basically laughable that the PGA Tour is better at applying the USGA's rules than the USGA.
I believe the PGA rules officials are all professional, and many of the USGA rules officials are volunteers.

I'm not 100% sure on the makeup of officials but I do know a lot of them are from the state sections and travel to USGA events to be officials. Some are also people who aren't necessarily in the state golf associations but are rules officials that work multiple USGA events per year. There may be the a few randoms that don't fit in either of these boxes.

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#90 davep043

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 11:59 AM

View Post15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostDFS PFD, on 12 June 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Honest ignorance here, with an honest question, what organization was behind the Lexi Thompson ruling? That was the most atrocious decision I've heard about in professional golf, and painful to watch.

Honest, clear answer: it was the USGA.

And the USGA supplied a completely public accounting of the ruling, and the reaction, HERE.  I commend it to you, straight up.

I thought it was the correct ruling.  I have absolutely no problem, with any golf ruling as long as it is the right ruling.  I don't care if it was caught by a tv assistant director, or a commentator, or a former USGA executive having a cocktail at home in Florida on his big-screen.

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 12 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:


ANA is put on by the LPGA Tour according to Wikipedia.
I believe it was the LPGA who assessed the penalties, and quite correctly.  Lexi definitely did not replace the ball in its original position.  And as regards the revised rule saying a players "reasonable judgement" will be accepted, I believe she did NOT use reasonable judgement.  When you lift the ball an inch high, and move it sideways by almost an inch, that's not a reasonable effort to replace it in its original location.  It could have been an effort to avoid an imperfection in the green, we'll never know for sure.


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