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Tiger's Wedge Grooves - right on the edge of legal

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#31 bladehunter

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

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#32 BrianMcG

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:23 PM

Either grooves are legal or they are not. There's no such thing as "on the edge" or almost illegal. Why would a company make a wedge that wasn't?  Would a company make grooves that are "the most legal grooves" and give you a grooves club?

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#33 straightshot7

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:44 PM

 BrianMcG, on 10 June 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

Either grooves are legal or they are not. There's no such thing as "on the edge" or almost illegal. Why would a company make a wedge that wasn't?  Would a company make grooves that are "the most legal grooves" and give you a grooves club?

"Among other things, the rules reduce the maximum volume of the grooves on irons, wedges, hybrids and fairway woods. The rules also place a limitation on the sharpness of groove edges on irons, wedges, hybrids and fairway woods with lofts of 25 degrees or higher." (USGA.org)

So, in theory, you attempt to make the grooves as close to the maximum volume as possible and as sharp as possible, without crossing the legal limit.

That would be approaching "the edge" of legal. Obviously. Otherwise why wouldn't guys just use dull, old wedges? They want to be as close to the legal limit as possible.

It's similar to getting your driver as close to the COR limit as possible. Of course guys want the hottest COR possible. It's not just about legal or not legal.

You could have 2 legal clubs but one could have way sharper grooves, etc.

Guys will always look for "an edge". Just as in race car driving...your car specs are going to be right on the legal limits. Of course.

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#34 Holy Moses

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Philís current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye
Ping G30 LS Tec 10* (DI-6X)
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#35 Krt22

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:07 PM

 BrianMcG, on 10 June 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

Either grooves are legal or they are not. There's no such thing as "on the edge" or almost illegal. Why would a company make a wedge that wasn't?  Would a company make grooves that are "the most legal grooves" and give you a grooves club?

The groove limits are physical measurements. For mass produced clubs the manufacturers likely have to be conservative and design them with mechanical tolerances in mind. For special touring pros that get hand crafted wedges, they may be more aggressive such that the groves are much closer to the legal limit than the retail version (same goes for driver COR). So yes they are legal, but certain grooves could certainly be closer to what is allowable


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#36 BIG STU

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:08 PM

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

 lowheel, on 10 June 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

padraig harrington was doing this for years...

https://www.golfchan...sneaky-bastard/

Not the same. Paddy had every other iron cut with box grooves or similar.  That way he essentially had more irons.  Some would spin back. Some release. But that's before they were illegal.  Only same if tigers were illegal now.   You cant cut a groove any more close to legal than some retail grooves are now.  Ever play a Vega or yuyuri wedge ?  You get pieces of ball cover in every pitch shot in between the grooves.  And they are legal.  

If tigers are that sharp I'd be shocked ,  but so what if they are.  It isn't a rarity on tour. And certainly not something Rory couldn't have if he wanted.
Believe it or not you can do the same thing with Wishon PCF wedges and they are legal--- Tom verified that himself to me via e mail
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#37 BIG STU

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:10 PM

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Phil's current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye
Yep the 2013 X forged the retail version had 10 grooves and the tour version had 13. But then so did the Wilson R-90 sand wedges
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#38 Holy Moses

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:16 PM

 BIG STU, on 10 June 2018 - 07:10 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Phil's current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye
Yep the 2013 X forged the retail version had 10 grooves and the tour version had 13. But then so did the Wilson R-90 sand wedges

Iím not familiar with the USGA rule on this (as you can tell), but youíre saying that OEMs could put less space between grooves if they wanted to and most arenít going to the limit even with their wedges? Iím assuming that would make for more spin and less distance? 10 vs 13 grooves doesnít necessarily mean the grooves are more tightly packed in. For instance, Ping just recently added a groove to their 56* and 60* wedges without tightening the space between the grooves.

Edited by Holy Moses, 10 June 2018 - 07:19 PM.

Ping G30 LS Tec 10* (DI-6X)
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#39 bladehunter

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:25 PM

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Philís current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye

Tighter between each groove because they added more grooves. So spacin has to tighten.
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#40 Holy Moses

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:30 PM

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Holy Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Phil's current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye

Tighter between each groove because they added more grooves. So spacin has to tighten.

OK, if that's what happened I get it. But as I said before, other companies are doing that without tightening the spacing.

My question is why aren't more wedges designed with tighter groove spacing.

Ping G30 LS Tec 10* (DI-6X)
Ping G30 17* 5W (DI-7X)
Ping i20 3 (DI-95S), 4-UW (PX 6.0)
Ping Glide 56*SS, 60*ES (PX 6.0)
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#41 97speedster

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:37 PM

Some of you have all the answers and make guys like myself regret posting. I never said anything about Mike at Artisan doing grooves for Tiger, that was assumed when I mentioned Dallas. I have had similar replies to threads before, so I can take the unicorn abuse.

Edited by 97speedster, 10 June 2018 - 07:41 PM.

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#42 straightshot7

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:38 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

I remember someone saying that they thought the grooves on either Tiger's irons or wedges looked more tightly spaced than what we've seen in other irons. That was just a poster eyeballing them, but yeah there's that.

All Nike heads had the extra grooves.  So did Callaway for ever.  Razr X. X forged etc. from 2010 up.

Not extra grooves in and of themselves (like Phil's current LW), but the spacing between each groove seemed to be tighter to the naked eye

Tighter between each groove because they added more grooves. So spacin has to tighten.

OK, if that's what happened I get it. But as I said before, other companies are doing that without tightening the spacing.

My question is why aren't more wedges designed with tighter groove spacing.

There are rules on how much spacing has to exist between grooves, depending on the depth of the groove.

"so deeper or wider grooves must be farther apart and those closer together cannot be as deep and wide."

http://golftips.golf...clubs-2373.html

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#43 Guia

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:40 PM

I don't see a problem.  They are legal, so what?

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#44 Holy Moses

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:40 PM

I found this from this site's review of the Nike VR Pro and Pro Combo irons: "One of the most obvious differences between these irons and the previous generation is the new grooves. The X3X High-Frequency Grooves are designed to give a cleaner, more consistent ball flight and spin. The idea is that with more grooves closer together and deeper on the clubface, they ensure more control and consistency in all conditions. The manufacturing process involved in this also had the side-effect of improving the tolerances which should lead to greater consistency throughout the set." http://www.golfwrx.c...ro-combo-irons/

Sure seems like Tiger wanted to go back to the groove design of the VR Pros with these irons since they are basically copies. I'm assuming that goes for his wedges too.

Mizuno MP-18s have 12 grooves on their 4 irons. Tiger's TW-PHASE1s have 16. That's a sizable difference. What's a typical 730 or Dustin's 4 iron have as far as grooves compared to Tiger's? I would ask the same question for Tiger's MG wedge vs the other TaylorMade MG wedge grooves.

Edited by Holy Moses, 10 June 2018 - 08:00 PM.

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Ping G30 17* 5W (DI-7X)
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Ping Vault Arna

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#45 straightshot7

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:40 PM

View Post97speedster, on 10 June 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

Some of you have all the answers and make guys like myself regret posting. I never said anything about Mike at Artisan doing grooves for Tiger, that was assumed when I mentioned Dallas. I have had similar replies to threads before, so I can take the unicorn abuse.

Here is another Tiger unicorn story.... believe it or not, but he is staying on his yacht this week during US Open and he told me that himself ;).

My comment about his wedges being soaked in unicorn blood was just a joke, based on the lore around Tiger's clubs forever.

I don't know why you would take it personally. It wasn't directed at your post.

Appreciate the insight on his wedges---I think it's a cool story.


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#46 Nessism

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:42 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

My question is why aren't more wedges designed with tighter groove spacing.

I think it's a tradeoff: more grooves but narrow grooves vs. wider/less grooves.  Ping wedges used to have (maybe still do) a couple different groove configurations depending on what wedge and it's primary intended use.

Regarding the claim for Tigers wedges, I don't understand why some here think the idea is so outlandish.  It's certainly doable and there are tools available which can measure the edge radius so a guy working with a deburring tool can inch up to the required radius a little at a time.

Edited by Nessism, 10 June 2018 - 07:46 PM.

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#47 Holy Moses

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:43 PM

View Poststraightshot7, on 10 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

My question is why aren't more wedges designed with tighter groove spacing.

There are rules on how much spacing has to exist between grooves, depending on the depth of the groove.

"so deeper or wider grooves must be farther apart and those closer together cannot be as deep and wide."

http://golftips.golf...clubs-2373.html

Interesting. So an iron or a wedge that has more grooves but not as deep of a groove should do what to the ball differently than a more stock club?

The WRX review says that the VR Pros X3X grooves are more tightly spaced AND deeper.
Ping G30 LS Tec 10* (DI-6X)
Ping G30 17* 5W (DI-7X)
Ping i20 3 (DI-95S), 4-UW (PX 6.0)
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Ping Vault Arna

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#48 bscinstnct

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:48 PM

TW get Commando 450






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#49 Nessism

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:49 PM

Golf Mechanix sells a few different tools for measuring grooves.  To someone of Tiger wealth even the $35k tool is nothing...http://www.golfmecha...asp?Pdts=search
Ping G400 driver w/Adila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 & 5 fairway woods & E8 hybrid
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
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Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

19

#50 straightshot7

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:51 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

View Poststraightshot7, on 10 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

My question is why aren't more wedges designed with tighter groove spacing.

There are rules on how much spacing has to exist between grooves, depending on the depth of the groove.

"so deeper or wider grooves must be farther apart and those closer together cannot be as deep and wide."

http://golftips.golf...clubs-2373.html

Interesting. So an iron or a wedge that has more grooves but not as deep of a groove should do what to the ball differently than a more stock club?

The WRX review says that the VR Pros X3X grooves are more tightly spaced AND deeper.

I'm not sure. I think you'd definitely need to talk to an expert/club-maker/tester to know what the exact correlation is between groove number, depth, and spin. Or find some good research online.

As for the VR Pros X3X grooves, that sounds like marketing hype. They may be more tightly spaced and deeper than they were before, but no matter what they have to stay under the legal limit.

I would imagine that all manufacturers are trying to find the perfect balance between grove spacing and depth.


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#51 97speedster

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:52 PM

View Poststraightshot7, on 10 June 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

My comment about his wedges being soaked in unicorn blood was just a joke, based on the lore around Tiger's clubs forever.

I don't know why you would take it personally. It wasn't directed at your post.

Appreciate the insight on his wedges---I think it's a cool story.

Don't take it personally, it wasn't even directed at you.... more at bladehunter who needs an attitude adjustment.

Edited by 97speedster, 10 June 2018 - 07:55 PM.

WITB in 2018
Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura SIX Tour Spec X
3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 83 X
Hybrid: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (18.5 degrees)
Shaft: Aldila Beta 105 S
Irons: TaylorMade P-770 (4-PW)
Shafts: UST Mamiya Recoil Prototype 110 F4 +1/2"
Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (50-09, 56-13),
TaylorMade Hi-Toe 60
Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400
Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey 2-Ball with a Slant Neck (Tour Line / Tour Fill) 34"
Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X

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#52 bladehunter

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:54 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 10 June 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

I found this from this site's review of the Nike VR Pro and Pro Combo irons: "One of the most obvious differences between these irons and the previous generation is the new grooves. The X3X High-Frequency Grooves are designed to give a cleaner, more consistent ball flight and spin. The idea is that with more grooves closer together and deeper on the clubface, they ensure more control and consistency in all conditions. The manufacturing process involved in this also had the side-effect of improving the tolerances which should lead to greater consistency throughout the set." http://www.golfwrx.c...ro-combo-irons/

Sure seems like Tiger wanted to go back to the groove design of the VR Pros with these irons since they are basically copies. I'm assuming that goes for his wedges too. Someone count the grooves on Tiger's

Mizuno MP-18s have 12 grooves on their 4 irons. Tiger's TW-PHASE1s have 16. That's a sizable difference. What's a typical 730 or Dustin's 4 iron have as far as grooves compared to Tiger's? I would ask the same question for Tiger's MG wedge vs the other TaylorMade MG wedge grooves.


exact same iron ....  exact.....lol   not go back to ...he literally never left.. The vapor pro he played for a very short amount of events...  and obviously didnt like , since he and Rory Dumped them as fast as possible
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#53 bladehunter

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 07:59 PM

View Post97speedster, on 10 June 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

Some of you have all the answers and make guys like myself regret posting. I never said anything about Mike at Artisan doing grooves for Tiger, that was assumed when I mentioned Dallas. I have had similar replies to threads before, so I can take the unicorn abuse.

Im certain you mean me...  

It did smack me in the face when i read it ..  And i likely did post a little snarky.   For that i apologize..  I do not find your posts usually off base at all.  But this one is .

It wasnt a big jump to MT at Artisan since thats who obviously built his irons and wedges. It was so clear i wouldnt even call it an assumption...  More like an unspoken fact.
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#54 easylittle5wood

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:05 PM

Most definitely Ft. Worth, not Dallas.

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#55 RobertBaron

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:37 PM

Is there a regulation or rule regarding another party cutting grooves into a blank conforming club head? What constitutes conforming wrt to a clubhead? Does it have to be approved grooves and all? Is that a stipulation? What exactly is USGA conforming?

So many questions!


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#56 97speedster

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:52 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

Im certain you mean me...  

It did smack me in the face when i read it ..  And i likely did post a little snarky.   For that i apologize..  I do not find your posts usually off base at all.  But this one is .

It wasnt a big jump to MT at Artisan since thats who obviously built his irons and wedges. It was so clear i wouldnt even call it an assumption...  More like an unspoken fact.

Thanks and no worries.... I can find out the truth next week after the Open and I am not afraid to eat crow. I did hear this from a credible source, but we will see how credible.... it was in the Grille Room at Winged Foot after a lot of cocktails.

Edited by 97speedster, 11 June 2018 - 06:36 AM.

WITB in 2018
Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura SIX Tour Spec X
3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 83 X
Hybrid: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (18.5 degrees)
Shaft: Aldila Beta 105 S
Irons: TaylorMade P-770 (4-PW)
Shafts: UST Mamiya Recoil Prototype 110 F4 +1/2"
Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (50-09, 56-13),
TaylorMade Hi-Toe 60
Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400
Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey 2-Ball with a Slant Neck (Tour Line / Tour Fill) 34"
Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X

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#57 97speedster

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:54 AM

View PostRobertBaron, on 10 June 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Is there a regulation or rule regarding another party cutting grooves into a blank conforming club head? What constitutes conforming wrt to a clubhead? Does it have to be approved grooves and all? Is that a stipulation? What exactly is USGA conforming?

So many questions!

As long as the grooves are cut to legal specs then it doesn't matter who cuts them.

https://www.usga.org...ub/grooves.html

Edited by 97speedster, 11 June 2018 - 05:55 AM.

WITB in 2018
Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura SIX Tour Spec X
3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
Shaft: Fujikura Pro Tour Spec 83 X
Hybrid: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (18.5 degrees)
Shaft: Aldila Beta 105 S
Irons: TaylorMade P-770 (4-PW)
Shafts: UST Mamiya Recoil Prototype 110 F4 +1/2"
Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (50-09, 56-13),
TaylorMade Hi-Toe 60
Shafts: True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400
Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey 2-Ball with a Slant Neck (Tour Line / Tour Fill) 34"
Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X

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#58 iBanesto

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:06 AM

View Postlowheel, on 10 June 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

padraig harrington was doing this for years...

https://www.golfchan...sneaky-bastard/

And Harrington was never able to cope with the groove rule change.

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#59 br61

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:35 AM

View Post97speedster, on 10 June 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

Some of you have all the answers and make guys like myself regret posting. I never said anything about Mike at Artisan doing grooves for Tiger, that was assumed when I mentioned Dallas. I have had similar replies to threads before, so I can take the unicorn abuse.

Don't regret posting, I enjoy reading your posts ever since early days of BSG. Some people are naturally skeptical no matter what. That is beauty of different opinions. (I did read later posts).

I did read an article that TM were surprised that he put his Milled Grind wedges in play this quickly.
A bag of hacking utensils;

TM M3 9.5* Tensei Pro White stiff
TM R11TP 14* & 19* Kai'li 80 stiff
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#60 Mitchell

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 07:09 AM

View Post97speedster, on 11 June 2018 - 05:52 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 June 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

Im certain you mean me...  

It did smack me in the face when i read it ..  And i likely did post a little snarky.   For that i apologize..  I do not find your posts usually off base at all.  But this one is .

It wasnt a big jump to MT at Artisan since thats who obviously built his irons and wedges. It was so clear i wouldnt even call it an assumption...  More like an unspoken fact.

Thanks and no worries.... I can find out the truth next week after the Open and I am not afraid to eat crow. I did hear this from a credible source, but we will see how credible.... it was in the Grille Room at Winged Foot after a lot of cocktails.
Lots of problems caused by belief in stuff heard after a lot of cocktails...or so I've heard.🙊 😀

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