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Hickory vs Titanium on a Trackman!


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#1 dpark

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 03:17 PM

Got to do something really fun today, hit my modern clubs side by side with hickory!

My club had a Titleist ball fitting today and I was the last fitting so they let me goof around with my hickory clubs on the Trackman.

The screen shot is of a hickory drive and the shot dispersion side of the screen you can see where the hickory drive landed vs. titanium. A 30 yard difference in carry (217.9 vs 248) and a 25 yard difference in total distance (237.5 vs 262)

Huge difference in clubhead speed. 93mph with hickory and 104mph with graphite. Not that I couldn't swing as hard with hickory, but the results get very inconsistent because of the high torque in the shaft. 93mph is a swing that gets me good, repeatable results.

The titleist fitter was impressed with the numbers for the hickory. Launch, spin and smash factor were all solid. Only way to hit the ball further would be to swing harder :)

Club specs:
Hickory: Forgan St Andrews 10*, 43", C-9 swingweight, original Forgan hickory shaft
Titanium: Cobra Zero Limits, 10.5*, 44.5", D-2 swingweight, Matrix HD-6 stiff shaft

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Only thing that would have been better would have been to also get my persimmon woods measured on the Trackman too.

Old stuff:
1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

New stuff
Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
Adams A2P 18* hybrid
Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
Titleist SM6 wedges 52, 56, 60
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa

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#2 freddiec

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 05:59 AM

Great post ��! Always fun to see a side by side comparison like this

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#3 dcopp7

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 07:57 AM

So what titleist are you getting?
Callaway Hyper X 9*  what's the point?

Taylormade RBZ 15* 3W

Cleveland Launcher 3W 15*

Synchron Vespa 19* hybrid

Dunlop Pro 18* driving iron

Orlimar clone 23* 7W

Dynacraft Prophet CB flexface 5i-PW

Acer XB 52* & 58* wedges

Lynx putter

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#4 BIG STU

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 08:45 AM

Very interesting and revealing and yes I would be very curious as to the numbers with persimmon and steel--- Thanks for posting---- BTW hope Rick Shiels or one of those guys do not see this because they will be in a all night brain storming session trying to refute the results :taunt:
Driver: Homna G1-X Homna stiff shaft
FW TM V-Steel 5 wood 18* Pro Launch Blue
FW TM V-Steel 7 wood 21* Stock TM R
Irons 3 thru PW 1982 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts hard stepped-- Yeah MacHogans or Bastardized Macs
SW Cleveland 588 56* DG Sensicore
LW  Cleveland 588 60* DG Sensicore custom sole Scratch EGG style
Putter- Little David 8802 or 97 Scotty Santa Fe rusty as hell
Bag-- Original Ping Hoofer
Founding Father of Outlaw Golf Association member #1---- Play what you want screw the USGA & R&A
Redneck Hippie Golf When the Tailgate drops the BS Stops
Vintage
Toney Penna Model 1 Aldila HM-40
3&4 woods Macgregor DX Keyhole steel TT R
Irons 2 thru 9 1954 Hogan Precision TT green
PW Hogan White Cameo 50* Hogan Apex Wedge
SW Macgregor LRA 56* TT Wedge Stiff DJ Special
Putter ( subject to change) Cleveland 8802 Designed By
Bag Old School Titleist Stand

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#5 dbleag

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 10:50 AM

OP - what kind of balls did you use?


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#6 ebeer

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 10:50 AM

If I were a Cobra rep, I would not be thrilled in knowing that 100 years of technology innovation resulted in a mere 25yds!

Various Brassies depending on mood: Alex Herd, AG Spalding, etc

George Nicoll 2 Iron

Tom Stewart: Jigger, Mashie, Mashie Niblick, Niblick

Putters: AG Spalding, Standard Mills, Tom Stewart - depends if I want to miss right or left ;)

NorCal Hickory - Pacific Hickory - StymieMagnet (this Instagram link has new hickory photos posted almost daily)


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#7 stixman

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 11:58 AM

View Postebeer, on 04 June 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

If I were a Cobra rep, I would not be thrilled in knowing that 100 years of technology innovation resulted in a mere 25yds!

You are being kind to the Cobra rep, it's minimum of 110 years. That Forgan Crown mark tells all!
Vintage various.

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#8 deetsal

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 03:22 PM

View Postdpark, on 02 June 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

Got to do something really fun today, hit my modern clubs side by side with hickory!

My club had a Titleist ball fitting today and I was the last fitting so they let me goof around with my hickory clubs on the Trackman.

The screen shot is of a hickory drive and the shot dispersion side of the screen you can see where the hickory drive landed vs. titanium. A 30 yard difference in carry (217.9 vs 248) and a 25 yard difference in total distance (237.5 vs 262)

Huge difference in clubhead speed. 93mph with hickory and 104mph with graphite. Not that I couldn't swing as hard with hickory, but the results get very inconsistent because of the high torque in the shaft. 93mph is a swing that gets me good, repeatable results.

The titleist fitter was impressed with the numbers for the hickory. Launch, spin and smash factor were all solid. Only way to hit the ball further would be to swing harder :)

Club specs:
Hickory: Forgan St Andrews 10*, 43", C-9 swingweight, original Forgan hickory shaft
Titanium: Cobra Zero Limits, 10.5*, 44.5", D-2 swingweight, Matrix HD-6 stiff shaft

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Only thing that would have been better would have been to also get my persimmon woods measured on the Trackman too.The real test would  be to hit each at the at the same swing speed that will show the technology diff.


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#9 deetsal

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 03:23 PM

The test should be same swing speed, that will show the real difference. Should still Dr substantial.

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#10 nemoblack

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 03:48 PM

View Postdeetsal, on 04 June 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

The test should be same swing speed, that will show the real difference. Should still Dr substantial.

It would be interesting to choke up on the modern driver so the effective club length is the same as the vintage club.


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#11 Dcohenour

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 03:53 PM

The scoring difference between the 2015 US Open and the 1915 US Open is about 30 strokes. I suspect that if one were to look back through the stats, we would find about a 2-3% improvement between eras (hickory to steel, steel to graphite, wood to laminate to alloy) Add to that the improvement in physique, the ball technology, and course management, my sense is that the game is relatively the same all things considered. Scores should be lower, but we really have no way of knowing how the players of the teens and twenties would play if they had modern equipment. We could have current players play with hickory on 100 year old courses, which would be, imo, a fantastic event to witness. Even having them go back to the 1960's equipment and play an entire tournament, like at Oakmont for instance, would be amazing.

Something like that, at the end of the season, would be fun for everyone. Make it a huge charity event. Oh well...in my dreams. To the main point though, the comparison between hickory and a modern club is interesting, even if I have no idea what those numbers mean.
:to_become_senile:

Edited by Dcohenour, 04 June 2018 - 03:54 PM.


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#12 majic

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 09:53 PM

My results show on the average 10% reduction in distance for the hickory. This is a hickory at 43 inches and modern at 45 inches. This is very good info based on many players.

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#13 dpark

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 12:13 AM

View Postdbleag, on 03 June 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

OP - what kind of balls did you use?

For the modern clubs, I hit both the Pro-V1 and the X. Virtually no difference off the driver, and that is supposed to be intentional. The differences were seen with the 7-iron and partial wedges. Much higher apex and more spin with the Pro-V1x.

For the hickory driver, I only hit the Pro-V1. The fitter said there wouldn't be much difference with the X off the driver, same as with my Cobra. Didn't hit the irons.
Old stuff:
1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

New stuff
Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
Adams A2P 18* hybrid
Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
Titleist SM6 wedges 52, 56, 60
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa

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#14 dpark

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 12:18 AM

View Postdcopp7, on 03 June 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

So what titleist are you getting?

Switching from Pro-V1 to the X. The higher spin and trajectory was significant for me off the irons and wedges. Don't like the feel off the putter, but I'll get used to it (I hope).
Old stuff:
1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

New stuff
Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
Adams A2P 18* hybrid
Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
Titleist SM6 wedges 52, 56, 60
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa

14

#15 BIG STU

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:41 AM

View PostDcohenour, on 04 June 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

The scoring difference between the 2015 US Open and the 1915 US Open is about 30 strokes. I suspect that if one were to look back through the stats, we would find about a 2-3% improvement between eras (hickory to steel, steel to graphite, wood to laminate to alloy) Add to that the improvement in physique, the ball technology, and course management, my sense is that the game is relatively the same all things considered. Scores should be lower, but we really have no way of knowing how the players of the teens and twenties would play if they had modern equipment. We could have current players play with hickory on 100 year old courses, which would be, imo, a fantastic event to witness. Even having them go back to the 1960's equipment and play an entire tournament, like at Oakmont for instance, would be amazing.

Something like that, at the end of the season, would be fun for everyone. Make it a huge charity event. Oh well...in my dreams. To the main point though, the comparison between hickory and a modern club is interesting, even if I have no idea what those numbers mean.
:to_become_senile:
I agree and I have said that for years. As it being a charity event that is one fantastic idea. The only drawback I see is that it would not have much mainstream support. The mainstream guys could not appreciate the old stuff like we do after all we played it and to some extent still play it. And truthfully I ain't too "hip" on the numbers thing either. I have only been on a Trackman one time and it was a friend of mine's machine and I trusted what he was telling me. I did learn what others had said about Titleist drivers as in they spin a lot because I saw the sidespin I was putting on my 915 with my anti hook cut swing . But I also saw something else and he backed it up. I am more accurate with the 915 because I know what it is going to do (in most cases) and can compensate for it. That Homna in my signature is a lot hotter off the face but I do not control it quite as well not bad but not as good

Driver: Homna G1-X Homna stiff shaft
FW TM V-Steel 5 wood 18* Pro Launch Blue
FW TM V-Steel 7 wood 21* Stock TM R
Irons 3 thru PW 1982 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts hard stepped-- Yeah MacHogans or Bastardized Macs
SW Cleveland 588 56* DG Sensicore
LW  Cleveland 588 60* DG Sensicore custom sole Scratch EGG style
Putter- Little David 8802 or 97 Scotty Santa Fe rusty as hell
Bag-- Original Ping Hoofer
Founding Father of Outlaw Golf Association member #1---- Play what you want screw the USGA & R&A
Redneck Hippie Golf When the Tailgate drops the BS Stops
Vintage
Toney Penna Model 1 Aldila HM-40
3&4 woods Macgregor DX Keyhole steel TT R
Irons 2 thru 9 1954 Hogan Precision TT green
PW Hogan White Cameo 50* Hogan Apex Wedge
SW Macgregor LRA 56* TT Wedge Stiff DJ Special
Putter ( subject to change) Cleveland 8802 Designed By
Bag Old School Titleist Stand

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#16 BIG STU

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 03:44 AM

View Postdeetsal, on 04 June 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

The test should be same swing speed, that will show the real difference. Should still Dr substantial.
That would be hard for the average human to do with the different swing weights and sizes of the heads> Think as in air displacement and the overall weights of the clubs. But now on a machine like an Iron Byron that would be in the words of Artie Johnson "verrry interesting"
Driver: Homna G1-X Homna stiff shaft
FW TM V-Steel 5 wood 18* Pro Launch Blue
FW TM V-Steel 7 wood 21* Stock TM R
Irons 3 thru PW 1982 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts hard stepped-- Yeah MacHogans or Bastardized Macs
SW Cleveland 588 56* DG Sensicore
LW  Cleveland 588 60* DG Sensicore custom sole Scratch EGG style
Putter- Little David 8802 or 97 Scotty Santa Fe rusty as hell
Bag-- Original Ping Hoofer
Founding Father of Outlaw Golf Association member #1---- Play what you want screw the USGA & R&A
Redneck Hippie Golf When the Tailgate drops the BS Stops
Vintage
Toney Penna Model 1 Aldila HM-40
3&4 woods Macgregor DX Keyhole steel TT R
Irons 2 thru 9 1954 Hogan Precision TT green
PW Hogan White Cameo 50* Hogan Apex Wedge
SW Macgregor LRA 56* TT Wedge Stiff DJ Special
Putter ( subject to change) Cleveland 8802 Designed By
Bag Old School Titleist Stand

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#17 SteveNZ

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:56 AM

View PostBIG STU, on 09 June 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

View Postdeetsal, on 04 June 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

The test should be same swing speed, that will show the real difference. Should still Dr substantial.
That would be hard for the average human to do with the different swing weights and sizes of the heads> Think as in air displacement and the overall weights of the clubs. But now on a machine like an Iron Byron that would be in the words of Artie Johnson "verrry interesting"

Stu - this is the one thing that is missing from the current distance debate - some science. To anyone's eye the ball is travelling further "than it used to" (combo of ball itself, club tech and increased player athleticism), and indeed too far at the very highest level (IMHO) but what is needed is some rigorous Iron Byron testing, in very small swing speed increments to see what effect the current ball is having, compared to an old ball, or even a "rolled-back" ball. Smarter people than me are of the belief that the vast majority of golfers do not swing fast enough to see any difference between a ProV and a "rolled-back" ball (so no one is going to be taking their 20 yards away) and I'd assume that some Iron Byron testing would confirm that - but we just need to see it!

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#18 Chris122

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 10:57 PM

I've read this several times,it is an eye-opener but mostly I'm impressed (and envious!) of the OP's ability.

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#19 BIG STU

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 03:03 AM

View PostChris122, on 09 June 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

I've read this several times,it is an eye-opener but mostly I'm impressed (and envious!) of the OP's ability.
I will agree he has some good tempo and rhythm to his swing to be able to hit a Hickory that good. But from what I have seen most guys that play hickory a lot do have good timing and tempo. And from the numbers he put up with the hickory he is also an excellent ball striker. Yeah I am envious too
Driver: Homna G1-X Homna stiff shaft
FW TM V-Steel 5 wood 18* Pro Launch Blue
FW TM V-Steel 7 wood 21* Stock TM R
Irons 3 thru PW 1982 Macgregor VIP Hogan Apex #2 shafts hard stepped-- Yeah MacHogans or Bastardized Macs
SW Cleveland 588 56* DG Sensicore
LW  Cleveland 588 60* DG Sensicore custom sole Scratch EGG style
Putter- Little David 8802 or 97 Scotty Santa Fe rusty as hell
Bag-- Original Ping Hoofer
Founding Father of Outlaw Golf Association member #1---- Play what you want screw the USGA & R&A
Redneck Hippie Golf When the Tailgate drops the BS Stops
Vintage
Toney Penna Model 1 Aldila HM-40
3&4 woods Macgregor DX Keyhole steel TT R
Irons 2 thru 9 1954 Hogan Precision TT green
PW Hogan White Cameo 50* Hogan Apex Wedge
SW Macgregor LRA 56* TT Wedge Stiff DJ Special
Putter ( subject to change) Cleveland 8802 Designed By
Bag Old School Titleist Stand

19

#20 dpark

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 01:09 AM

View PostBIG STU, on 10 June 2018 - 03:03 AM, said:

View PostChris122, on 09 June 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

I've read this several times,it is an eye-opener but mostly I'm impressed (and envious!) of the OP's ability.
I will agree he has some good tempo and rhythm to his swing to be able to hit a Hickory that good. But from what I have seen most guys that play hickory a lot do have good timing and tempo. And from the numbers he put up with the hickory he is also an excellent ball striker. Yeah I am envious too

Thanks Big Stu and Chris122!

I do have an old school swing, much more like Payne Stewart than Tiger, with a very smooth transition at the top. It also probably helps that I play persimmon regularly as well, so the small head doesn't bother me.

Old stuff:
1962 Tommy Armour AT2W Driver
1953 Macgregor M65W EOM 3 wood
1978 H&B PowerBilt Citation 4 wood
1984 Ben Hogan Apex PC 2-E
1968 Wilson Dual Wedge
1964 Acushnet O-SET M6S Bullseye Putter

New stuff
Cobra ZL 10.5 driver
Adams 5050 16 fairway wood
Adams A2P 18* hybrid
Titleist 716 MB irons 4-PW
Titleist SM6 wedges 52, 56, 60
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Napa

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