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At what age does winning become important


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#1 CTgolf

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:39 AM

There have been other threads that mentioned that tournaments don't matter too much until juniors are playing multi-day events for Junior Golf Scoreboard ranking or AJGA stars.  I am not debating this.

But for considerations *beyond* rankings or tournament eligibility, how important is winning (or being very competitive) at an early age?  At what age does it become important?

I am thinking more along the lines of developing a winning mindset, dominant mentality, confidence, etc.

The mental side of the game seems underappreciated and there isn't much literature about how to maximize it, much less how important it is in the overall development of a junior golfer.

Thoughts?


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#2 hangontight

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 12:50 PM

The common refrain on this forum is that success "is meaningless" until teens, ranking points are counted, etc.  I agree -  in the context that it is  "meaningless" towards junior rankings, high level development, or scholarship considerations.  However, I do not discount the value of a win for a younger kid for a variety of reasons , but primarily for confidence.  I think success = fun for a lot of younger competitive type kids, which can lead to more drive, focus, and so forth.  I think it can be habit forming - winning often can help cultivate a winning mentality, where the player expects to win (they dont win every time, but I bet they win more often because of it).   So, yes, I think winning is important at an early age - but for some different reasons than why winning is important at a later age. Not everyone is working (for their junior) towards winning at the highest level of junior golf or gunning for a college scholarship - agree that winning at 7 or 8 gives doesn't do anything for your chances later on.  But it may be a small boost in confidence for that kid...and who knows how that may snowball.  Lots of stories about meek kids finding confidence in sports and going on to do great things on and off the field(course).      Not to mention, as my boy Dabo Swinney says - "The fun is in the winning!" :yahoo:

Edited by hangontight, 25 May 2018 - 12:53 PM.


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#3 heavy_hitter

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 01:27 PM

For every Tiger Woods and Phil Mickleson, there are 1000's of kids that won early and never made it.  My son is 13 and has won over 50 tournaments.  Honestly means nothing.  He has as much as a chance to win the next tournament he plays in as the other 30 kids entered into it.  The best chance to win tournaments is to know you can shoot under par.  

You have to look at geography and score as well.  A kid in Mississippi (other states as well) can dominate and win by shooting a 50.  He goes to Florida, California, Texas and just lost by 14 plus strokes and probably in last place.

To me being able to shoot a score is more important than winning.  The next important part is being able to play under pressure on Day 2 in the final group while putting up a score.  If you can do those two things, winning eventually takes care of itself.

My son won $6.00 off of a buddy yesterday playing 9 holes.   :yahoo:  This is just as important as winning a golf tournament to me.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 08 June 2018 - 07:15 AM.


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#4 tiger1873

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 06:54 PM

Learning to win is very important at any age.  But I think have a desire to win is what is the most important.  

It is that desire that makes them practice and makes them work hard.  There is a good and bad with it. For instance a lot times I see kids have blow ups because they want to get birdies and they simply do not have the shot.

At some point since desire to win and practice is there those blowups they had when there younger do not happen and the scores drops.  The kids who can recover from bad shots and still par a hole are the ones who score very low.


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#5 yellowlover519

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 08:45 AM

Winning makes no difference before junior all stars at AJGA or multi-day events, IMO.  However, if you have a child that needs to medal or will lose confidence, then winning or playing well at the us kids level is important.  Also, some kids that win early will have the drive to stay on top, so thatís important as well.  I try to tell my kid itís better to improve than win; Iíd rather you finish second shooting a 36 than win shooting a 42.  

Also, tournament golf at a young age does have its advantages.  My son has played more tournament golf than casual golf and I do believe that tournament golf can help alleviate nerves at a young age.


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#6 mbs_59

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 06:28 PM

Disagree that it's meaningless.  But definitely agree that it means more for the mentality than for the recognition.  It will definitely be a lot easier for a junior to win at the high school level in an AJGA or other big event if he's been winning since he was 8.  Obviously the competition is different but if you asked me who would win if two kids were going into the final round on the same level and one had been winning tournaments since he was playing and the other one hadn't, I'm taking the winner.

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#7 Deerslayer

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 02:50 PM

I experienced first hand how many very young "sure things" who never made it past HS in golf while a few of those did excel.  I personally think that winning is important for a jr player at the right time.  
My son played baseball until he was 11/12 and when 12 decided to play golf full time.  At that time, he was good but would get his clock cleaned by the best players at the bigger regional and even local events.  That is precisely why he quit baseball and concentrated on golf.  The players that beat him played golf full time.
I divided his schedule into 3 parts beginning when he was 12.  1/3 local events where he was one of if not the favorite, 1/3 regional events where he was in the mix and 1/3 events that were over his head in competition.  After a few years of this, he began to dominate the local stuff and I always had parents that would all ask me why I had him still playing in these local events instead of all the larger ones.  Why?  I wanted him to know how to win, how to play as the favorite and how deal with those pressures.  I had friends who's kids were only playing in national events and though they would have some top finishes, they never won.  Funny how most of those who never won, that continued through HS and college even though they were top tier players.  Don't underestimate what winning can do for a player.  It can give them the drive they need to succeed.  Don't make winning everything, but I would say when they get around 12yrs old, they need to experience it.  If you have aspirations of your son or daughter playing D1 golf, remember the window for recruiting is smaller and sooner than most realize.  The critical time for your jr player to be performing in national type events to be noticed by the coaches is when they are 14-16yrs old.  Juniors in HS have already committed and D1 programs are done with that class at least 1.5yrs prior to their graduation.  This leaves you a smaller window for the player to get into being competitive which I think 12-14yrs of age is a critical time period in their development.  The key as a parent is NOT to push them so much that they are not happy or feel like they are being pushed.  In the end, it is going to be THEM that determines what they want.  Support them and most importantly SCHEDULE them for success.

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#8 leezer99

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 07:00 PM

View PostDeerslayer, on 06 June 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

...and most importantly SCHEDULE them for success.

That's the hardest part!  :swoon:

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#9 Deerslayer

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 09:00 PM

I canít tell you how many hours I spent every year working on His schedule. I had his own calendar that had entry deadlines, qualifiers and tournaments all listed. I even had alternative events if he didnít qualify. It was a TON of work but it can pay off too

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#10 heavy_hitter

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:42 AM

View PostDeerslayer, on 06 June 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

I can't tell you how many hours I spent every year working on His schedule. I had his own calendar that had entry deadlines, qualifiers and tournaments all listed. I even had alternative events if he didn't qualify. It was a TON of work but it can pay off too

I did the same thing for my daughter.

Dreading having to do it again for my son.  It is a lot of time and work to do it right.


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#11 kekoa

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 06:15 PM

It has been mentioned above as to when it becomes 'important' to win, but I think it is also important for younger kids to win as well.  Does it mean a whole lot?  Probably not, but I think it is good mentally.  As HH stated, it is all about score.  If you can show that you can take it under, especially on multi day tournaments then this is very positive.  If you shoot -4 over two days and lose then so be it.
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#12 tiger1873

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:02 AM

Long term development winning doesn't matter when there younger. I think though in a lot cases winning matters to the parents more at a young age then the kids themselves. Kids who play golf need support both monetary and emotional. If they don't win a lot parents may actually discourage them from continuing.

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#13 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:23 AM

If a kid is worried about winning, he probably has already lost.  He has to know he can put up a number to put him into contention.  Confidence is more knowing that you can put up a number anytime anywhere.  Winning may be a tiny part of that.  Ted Potter Jr. won at Pebble Beach and has done nothing since.   Anyone can catch lightning in a bottle and have that one awesome week.  Knowing you can shoot that number any day any time gives you confidence.  Tiger nailed it.  It is long term development and knowing you are doing the right thing for your kid to further the development that will give them the opportunities to succeed.

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#14 CTgolf

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:29 AM

I agree long term development should definitely be the primary objective

I think focusing on being able to shoot a score makes sense in theory, but there are some practical hurdles in doing this, especially for younger players

Variance in playing conditions and course setup/yardages can dictate what a "good" score should be

As an example, look at the US Kids yardages for different age groups:
http://uskidsgolf.co...ps-and-yardages

On Local Tours, Boys 8 & 9 are playing from the same yardages, but there can be a huge difference between an 8yo and 9yo boy in terms of physical growth/strength.  So while a couple strokes above par might be great for an 8yo, the equivalent would probably be below par for a 9yo from the same 2500 yard distance.  Same with Boys 10 and 11 for US Kids State Tournaments, etc.

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#15 tiger1873

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:54 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 08 June 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

I agree long term development should definitely be the primary objective

I think focusing on being able to shoot a score makes sense in theory, but there are some practical hurdles in doing this, especially for younger players

Variance in playing conditions and course setup/yardages can dictate what a "good" score should be

As an example, look at the US Kids yardages for different age groups:
http://uskidsgolf.co...ps-and-yardages

On Local Tours, Boys 8 & 9 are playing from the same yardages, but there can be a huge difference between an 8yo and 9yo boy in terms of physical growth/strength.  So while a couple strokes above par might be great for an 8yo, the equivalent would probably be below par for a 9yo from the same 2500 yard distance.  Same with Boys 10 and 11 for US Kids State Tournaments, etc.

Lower scores are a great focus but there is a time a place for them like you said. Some courses are impossible to par for a 8 year old because of carry distance. In those cases you need to set realistic goals for them.  

Some junior tournaments should be avoided because there not really good competitions or even fair.  The worst one I ever got involved was a local topgolf tournament where they put my 7 year old girl with 13 year old boys.


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#16 Deerslayer

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:23 PM

View Postleezer99, on 08 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

So do you chase points on a specific tour because some players will rake 'em in by simply playing in every event possible with top finishes or do you pick and choose events on multiple tours that you feel your junior would play well in?
  You can do some of both.  Usually tournaments in all levels of " jr. tours" will have different points for different tournaments.  Schedule a mix of the higher point events that you can fit with each other.

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#17 kekoa

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:28 PM

View Postleezer99, on 08 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

So do you chase points on a specific tour because some players will rake 'em in by simply playing in every event possible with top finishes or do you pick and choose events on multiple tours that you feel your junior would play well in?

I chase competition, multi day events, and nicer courses right now.  

In the Coachella Valley Tour for spring, we got two of the three items above and played every tournament.  For the summer, we are doing PGA Jr. League and hopping between two tours depending on course and competition.
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#18 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:40 PM

View Postkekoa, on 08 June 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 08 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

So do you chase points on a specific tour because some players will rake 'em in by simply playing in every event possible with top finishes or do you pick and choose events on multiple tours that you feel your junior would play well in?

I chase competition, multi day events, and nicer courses right now.  

In the Coachella Valley Tour for spring, we got two of the three items above and played every tournament.  For the summer, we are doing PGA Jr. League and hopping between two tours depending on course and competition.

This is much different in a younger kid than older kid.  At 8, chasing competition should be one of two things....  1) Playing your kid up to play against older kids....  2) Playing at longer yardages than US Kids.  Continuing to play US Locals against "competition" doesn't mean much in my opinion.  An 8 year olds competition is older kids and longer courses once they get to a certain level.  Yardage is the greatest equalizer.  Your kid already knows how to win.

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#19 kekoa

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:51 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 June 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 08 June 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 08 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

So do you chase points on a specific tour because some players will rake 'em in by simply playing in every event possible with top finishes or do you pick and choose events on multiple tours that you feel your junior would play well in?

I chase competition, multi day events, and nicer courses right now.  

In the Coachella Valley Tour for spring, we got two of the three items above and played every tournament.  For the summer, we are doing PGA Jr. League and hopping between two tours depending on course and competition.

This is much different in a younger kid than older kid.  At 8, chasing competition should be one of two things....  1) Playing your kid up to play against older kids....  2) Playing at longer yardages than US Kids.  Continuing to play US Locals against "competition" doesn't mean much in my opinion.  An 8 year olds competition is older kids and longer courses once they get to a certain level.  Yardage is the greatest equalizer.  Your kid already knows how to win.

Well a good thing about PGA Jr. League is he will play some longer yardages against some older and more skilled kids so I'm curious to see how he hold up.  Of course it is a scramble, but when some older kids blows it by 30-50 yards I want so see if he collapses lol.

In terms of playing some local tournies, I like to keep my son mentally in tournament shape.  Its very odd, but in practice rounds he plays like complete sh*t, but brings it on in tournaments.  Obviously I'd rather have it this way, but he needs to practice a lot better.
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#20 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 12:59 PM

View Postkekoa, on 08 June 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 June 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 08 June 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 08 June 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

So do you chase points on a specific tour because some players will rake 'em in by simply playing in every event possible with top finishes or do you pick and choose events on multiple tours that you feel your junior would play well in?

I chase competition, multi day events, and nicer courses right now.  

In the Coachella Valley Tour for spring, we got two of the three items above and played every tournament.  For the summer, we are doing PGA Jr. League and hopping between two tours depending on course and competition.

This is much different in a younger kid than older kid.  At 8, chasing competition should be one of two things....  1) Playing your kid up to play against older kids....  2) Playing at longer yardages than US Kids.  Continuing to play US Locals against "competition" doesn't mean much in my opinion.  An 8 year olds competition is older kids and longer courses once they get to a certain level.  Yardage is the greatest equalizer.  Your kid already knows how to win.

Well a good thing about PGA Jr. League is he will play some longer yardages against some older and more skilled kids so I'm curious to see how he hold up.  Of course it is a scramble, but when some older kids blows it by 30-50 yards I want so see if he collapses lol.

In terms of playing some local tournies, I like to keep my son mentally in tournament shape.  Its very odd, but in practice rounds he plays like complete sh*t, but brings it on in tournaments.  Obviously I'd rather have it this way, but he needs to practice a lot better.

I would probably guess that at 8 he may have kids driving it up to 100 yards past him.  My kids buddy is 13 and just was fitted.  105 swing speed with 250 carry.  Jr. League is fun, not always great golf.

Practice is Practice.  Tourney is tourney.  Younger kids that play too much, I have been there, will often not take practice seriously.   Young kids don't understand that they have to do this, that, and this to improve.  They just want to play and won't always take practice time seriously.  It is a developmental and maturity thing.  At 13 I think my kid is finally starting to understand.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 08 June 2018 - 01:01 PM.


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#21 heavy_hitter

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, But".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 12 June 2018 - 02:16 PM.


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#22 leezer99

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:34 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Pretty interesting perspective.

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#23 CTgolf

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

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#24 heavy_hitter

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:55 AM

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

As you get older the gaps in how good kids are shrinks.  As the courses get bigger, kids get longer (some don't), there is paridy that happens within the sport.  Swing flaws and physical limits become exposed.  When you hit 13 you are competing against 18 year olds unless kids stay back and continue to play "Daddy Golf".  You will always have those kids that are flat out dominant.  That kid is very few and far between.

When you are under 12 you are usually limited by age groups.  8 year olds only play other 8 year olds.  You may get into situation where it is 11-12 year olds.  When you hit 13 you are competing against either 13-15 and sometimes 13-18.  Your gap just decreased a ton.  My kid played with a 15 year old that just picked up a club for the first time ever at 11.  He was never involved in "Daddy Golf".  Kid goes out and shoots a 75 in this qualifier.  Very little instruction, just goes out and plays.  There are a bunch of kids just like this that you don't have under 13.  Gaps shrink.

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#25 CTgolf

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:14 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

As you get older the gaps in how good kids are shrinks.  As the courses get bigger, kids get longer (some don't), there is paridy that happens within the sport.  Swing flaws and physical limits become exposed.  When you hit 13 you are competing against 18 year olds unless kids stay back and continue to play "Daddy Golf".  You will always have those kids that are flat out dominant.  That kid is very few and far between.

When you are under 12 you are usually limited by age groups.  8 year olds only play other 8 year olds.  You may get into situation where it is 11-12 year olds.  When you hit 13 you are competing against either 13-15 and sometimes 13-18.  Your gap just decreased a ton.  My kid played with a 15 year old that just picked up a club for the first time ever at 11.  He was never involved in "Daddy Golf".  Kid goes out and shoots a 75 in this qualifier.  Very little instruction, just goes out and plays.  There are a bunch of kids just like this that you don't have under 13.  Gaps shrink.

The 15yo stud who first started playing at 11 - how did he perform as a 12, 13 or 14yo?


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#26 heavy_hitter

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:29 AM

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

As you get older the gaps in how good kids are shrinks.  As the courses get bigger, kids get longer (some don't), there is paridy that happens within the sport.  Swing flaws and physical limits become exposed.  When you hit 13 you are competing against 18 year olds unless kids stay back and continue to play "Daddy Golf".  You will always have those kids that are flat out dominant.  That kid is very few and far between.

When you are under 12 you are usually limited by age groups.  8 year olds only play other 8 year olds.  You may get into situation where it is 11-12 year olds.  When you hit 13 you are competing against either 13-15 and sometimes 13-18.  Your gap just decreased a ton.  My kid played with a 15 year old that just picked up a club for the first time ever at 11.  He was never involved in "Daddy Golf".  Kid goes out and shoots a 75 in this qualifier.  Very little instruction, just goes out and plays.  There are a bunch of kids just like this that you don't have under 13.  Gaps shrink.

The 15yo stud who first started playing at 11 - how did he perform as a 12, 13 or 14yo?

I wouldn't consider a 75 a stud.  I would consider it average for that age as a tournament golfer.  He didn't play in tournaments until this year.  He doesn't even have enough tournaments under his belt to be ranked.

The amazing part is he has only been playing tournament golf under a year and can put up a 75.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 12 June 2018 - 09:43 AM.


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#27 CTgolf

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:52 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

As you get older the gaps in how good kids are shrinks.  As the courses get bigger, kids get longer (some don't), there is paridy that happens within the sport.  Swing flaws and physical limits become exposed.  When you hit 13 you are competing against 18 year olds unless kids stay back and continue to play "Daddy Golf".  You will always have those kids that are flat out dominant.  That kid is very few and far between.

When you are under 12 you are usually limited by age groups.  8 year olds only play other 8 year olds.  You may get into situation where it is 11-12 year olds.  When you hit 13 you are competing against either 13-15 and sometimes 13-18.  Your gap just decreased a ton.  My kid played with a 15 year old that just picked up a club for the first time ever at 11.  He was never involved in "Daddy Golf".  Kid goes out and shoots a 75 in this qualifier.  Very little instruction, just goes out and plays.  There are a bunch of kids just like this that you don't have under 13.  Gaps shrink.

The 15yo stud who first started playing at 11 - how did he perform as a 12, 13 or 14yo?

I wouldn't consider a 75 a stud.  I would consider it average for that age as a tournament golfer.  He didn't play in tournaments until this year.  He doesn't even have enough tournaments under his belt to be ranked.

The amazing part is he has only been playing tournament golf under a year and can put up a 75.

I'm getting confused as to what the point is - he's not a top player, he shot a pedestrian 75 with little instruction and not much tournament experience, only started playing at 11, skipped "Daddy Golf" - but somehow he sounds like the exception rather than the rule.

I guess I just have a hard time believing that *MOST* top players in individual skill sports weren't top players at lower levels or younger age groups.  It seems like in every endeavor in life there is a narrowing process, like a pyramid, as juniors age and the skill level increases, and to get to the higher levels you needed to have had success before.  Is golf that different?

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#28 tiger1873

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:54 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

 CTgolf, on 12 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 12 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Have a buddy of mine whose kid has a pretty prestigious instructor.  He asked this instructor the other day this very question.  Without hesitation the instructor replied "Q-School".

Before anyone comes back with the "Yeah, Buts".  Golf changes at 13-15 years old.  Golf before the age of 13 it is "daddy caddy golf".   I call it "Baby Golf" now.   It changes for the kids a lot when they move into the older age groups.  The gaps shrink as you get older.

What % of top 13-15yr old junior golfers were at or near the top when they were in the younger age groups?

I would guess almost all

As you get older the gaps in how good kids are shrinks.  As the courses get bigger, kids get longer (some don't), there is paridy that happens within the sport.  Swing flaws and physical limits become exposed.  When you hit 13 you are competing against 18 year olds unless kids stay back and continue to play "Daddy Golf".  You will always have those kids that are flat out dominant.  That kid is very few and far between.

When you are under 12 you are usually limited by age groups.  8 year olds only play other 8 year olds.  You may get into situation where it is 11-12 year olds.  When you hit 13 you are competing against either 13-15 and sometimes 13-18.  Your gap just decreased a ton.  My kid played with a 15 year old that just picked up a club for the first time ever at 11.  He was never involved in "Daddy Golf".  Kid goes out and shoots a 75 in this qualifier.  Very little instruction, just goes out and plays.  There are a bunch of kids just like this that you don't have under 13.  Gaps shrink.

The 15yo stud who first started playing at 11 - how did he perform as a 12, 13 or 14yo?

I wouldn't consider a 75 a stud.  I would consider it average for that age as a tournament golfer.  He didn't play in tournaments until this year.  He doesn't even have enough tournaments under his belt to be ranked.

The amazing part is he has only been playing tournament golf under a year and can put up a 75.

While score is important what type of course and yardage was the 75 shot at? There is a big difference if the slope is 140 and 6000 yards to a course that a 90 slope and 4500 yards.

The thing that a lot people forget is the higher up the kids go as they get older the harder the course gets for them. You also play in more weather and windy conditions which all have an effect on their scores.

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#29 wildcatden

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 09:56 AM

When I think of golfers winning early or when does it become important to win in golf, I always think of two things:

1. Jack Nicklaus didn't play golf until he was 10 (although his dad was a scratch golfer, great at tennis, played semi-pro football and was an all-around very good athlete).
2. There is the statement in the Titleist Performance Institute stuff that says in effect: "In general, when two kids reach the age of roughly 13 (or so), a good multi-sport athlete will beat a golfer-only athlete nearly all of the time (exceptions granted)."

The 15 year old who picked up a club at age 11 and is shooting 75 now in his first year of tournaments? I'd like to know what other sports he played (if any at all). That's certainly a good score for someone with little tournament experience.

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#30 CTgolf

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:01 AM

I guess in my original post I was assuming that a junior golfer had been participating in competitions along the way, and not getting a late start.

But even among those who don't start competing until later, it seems like there is an age at which, if they haven't demonstrated the ability to compete at a high level, that it probably won't ever happen?

It sounds like that age is probably post-puberty.


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