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Ah ha Moment

Another One!

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#31 Jim Waldron

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 09:26 AM

One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".  

Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.  

Two types of independent arm motion:  arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.

Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway.  Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.

The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.

The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl

Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.


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#32 Exactice808

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 01:58 PM

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

View PostFade, on 02 June 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

OP, I don't think there is much wrong with the term golf swing. It describes the motion of (or action on) the golf club(-head) well enough for me, it doesn't matter how it is accomplished.

Im going to respond to these 2, First since they are relevant.

First off, there is NO right or wrong answer here, again in truth it is purely on perception of terms and understanding of mechanics.  Again,  basically saying,  I heard applied YET misunderstood the basics, from the get go, this is likely why my development took longer.

SO to say you dont Swing the club, is NOT entirely true, (Totally agree)  But for me, if I was instructed from the GET GO, someone like me may have understood the mechanics of a golf swing better.


Here again is my quick example, My 2 year old daughter and many new golfers @ the driving range,  Give them a golf club, what is the first Natural thing to do.  Little to NO body rotation, The arms Swing/Swat at the static golf ball.  PURELY amateur, fun, burn time @ the range, daughter has a blast.

But as I got into golf,  Swatting @ the ball or swinging at the ball is the general opposite of the correct movement?


Anyways, Again my generic ah ha moment was NOT the Savior for everyone it was for people LIKE me, that did NOT understand the theories, and found a better way to comprehend it.  


It does seem like 2 people seem to have caught on, to my thoughts again NOT perfect,  but if it does help someone comprehend than it was worth it NO?
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#33 Exactice808

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:01 PM

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

I don’t think we really disagree. As I said in both my posts, it’s a feel that can work, but is generally much more successful with better players. My guess is that you are a low single digit or better. And as for feel vs real, we are on the same page with regard to that as well.

You hit it on the nose!  We dont disagree and I hope you dont see my initial post as Gospel, it is "Feel" or comprehension of what is going on.  It is NOT the catch all.  Again Someone like me, read, watched, Yet lacked the proper comprehension and this IS Ah Ha moment, was that, Just an Ah Ha moment, that allowed me to realize BETTER, or "Feel" better of what I should be doing.
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#34 Exactice808

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:04 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 June 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".  

Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.  

Two types of independent arm motion:  arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.

Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway.  Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.

The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.

The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl

Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.

Jim,  I have watched and read your threads as well,  Its funny I TOTALLY comprehend it now,  It took this long to finally "get it" .

Again my "feel" or consciousness,  takes the word "swing" and denotes exactly the bolded that you stated above.  If at one point in our golfing career,  we want to evolve to a higher level, its this comprehension that we should understand.  Regardless of the Term,  Again though for someone specifically like me,  The Golf "TURN", was my moment, to get it rather than Golf "Swing"

Edited by Exactice808, 12 June 2018 - 08:19 PM.

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#35 sheldonjhacker

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:09 PM

View PostExactice808, on 04 June 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 June 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".  

Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.  

Two types of independent arm motion:  arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.

Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway.  Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.

The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.

The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl

Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.

Jim,  I have watched and read your threads as well,  Its funny I TOTALLY comprehend it now,  It took this look to finally "get it" .

Again my "feel" or consciousness,  takes the word "swing" and denotes exactly the bolded that you stated above.  If at one point in our golfing career,  we want to evolve to a higher level, its this comprehension that we should understand.  Regardless of the Term,  Again though for someone specifically like me,  The Golf "TURN", was my moment, to get it rather than Golf "Swing"
Are you just saying that the big muscles (core, torso) move the arms...through the hitting zone with the pivot ?  Arms remain passive?


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#36 Exactice808

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:16 PM

Additional Updates.


Last week,  when I started this post, it was due to my terrible round.  Bottom Line?

Shot a 97 last week,  9 Pars,  and 9 others, (1 quad, 5 triples , 3 Doubles) 2 Broken Clubs....(one out of a fit of rage, my stupidity and embarrassment, the other totally random off the tee box.)

I was implementing, this Ah ha Moment, so it was still in the trial phase.  9 pars, was a positive out look that when it works it works



Now Fast forward to yesterday.

79, 3 birdies, 1 eagle,  (3 doubles, 5 bogeys) Won 3 Closest to the pin Par3's
(#12par 3 was a temp whole moved to 16b)

Image-1.jpg



What changed,  Well the first 5 holes were bogey, bogey, Double, Bogey, bogey, (6 over after 5 holes- Started back 9 first) Just adjusting to this body rotation and getting the feeling of hitting the ball with the Right side of my body, rather then the center.

Once this clicked, it was consistency, that I have not seen before.  flight was predictable, impacts where predictable and shots were,  After the 15th hole, It was 3 birdies and one double.

The back nine again had the opening double and then it was pretty much consistent pars and that BS Eagle.  

Anyways.... This is surely a honey money stage I am sure, but somehow it seems to open the comprehension.  I hope it sticks around!

Edited by Exactice808, 04 June 2018 - 02:36 PM.

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#37 Exactice808

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 02:22 PM

View Postsheldonjhacker, on 04 June 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

View PostExactice808, on 04 June 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 03 June 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".  

Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.  

Two types of independent arm motion:  arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.

Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway.  Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.

The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.

The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl

Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.

Jim,  I have watched and read your threads as well,  Its funny I TOTALLY comprehend it now,  It took this look to finally "get it" .

Again my "feel" or consciousness,  takes the word "swing" and denotes exactly the bolded that you stated above.  If at one point in our golfing career,  we want to evolve to a higher level, its this comprehension that we should understand.  Regardless of the Term,  Again though for someone specifically like me,  The Golf "TURN", was my moment, to get it rather than Golf "Swing"
Are you just saying that the big muscles (core, torso) move the arms...through the hitting zone with the pivot ?  Arms remain passive?

For my personal Comprehension,  Yes Generically.  To answer you specifically there is likely more going on, but my swing thoughts is this.


1) Setup maintain the triangle
2) Rotate the upper core, with out dragging the arms or moving the arms actively, across my chest.
2a) During the rotation naturally my arms are moving vertically to increase width in my swing
3) consciously fire my hips, during this time my arms feel like they are there for the ride, this now creates the flex in my wrist for lag but at NO point am i consciously trying to do any of these moves, I am letting the unwinding of the torso, purely create any additional movements.
4) My down swing thought is HIT with the RIGHT side of my body.  This is getting my body to continue to turn through the shot.  Once my hands reach the bottom/right thigh, gravity is taking over and the club impacts, I am in no way manipulating the face rotation, firing my lead or trail hand its all about turning the torso around my legs and letting the arms fall @ the ball.   I had a stall, and EE, because I was trying to maintain my hands and arm positions @ impact,  this was all hands and arm manipulation that I was JUST terrible at.


I know Its a lot more than my initial post...... But the point of the initial post of "Ah Ha" Was again the comprehension that Torso rotation or TURN was "MY" fundamental rather then a SWING.

I hope this make sense?

Edited by Exactice808, 04 June 2018 - 02:29 PM.

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#38 Millbrook

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 05:07 AM

Copied from Silkys thread - Montes Plane and Release feel too good to be true;

I followed up on Golfbeats recommendation and watched part two;



I had the same Ah moment Exactice 808 had a couple of days before he started his thread. My friend and when went to have some clubs built and she picked hers up before I could get mine so I went round to look at them.

We were outside on a gravel path and I did not want to risk hitting the ground so I swung them like the video above with the club head about 18 inches above the ground. I realised then how little the arms do.

Played on Sunday with mixed results, hooked 3 drives when normally my miss is a push but hit some lovely straight irons and 3 perfect drives down the middle with a slight draw.

The thing I haven't worked out is unfolding the trail arm and whether it should be done consciously to get a bit of extra snap into the 'swing'.

Edit: The thing is that when I was 'swinging' my friends new club I was just trying to get the feel of it. In the absence of a ball to hit I was more connected like the 9-3 thread Dan put up and that's why it became noticeable how little the arms do.

Edited by Millbrook, 05 June 2018 - 05:08 AM.

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#39 bladehunter

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 06:30 AM

Op.  Itís. Hilarious to me that your ah ha moment is near identical to mine.  

Always a low single digit since I started playing in 2014.  And this winter it clicked.  That my takeaway was the key to great tempo and timing.  My feel is that my body starts the backswing and my arms stay in front of me.  This not only shortened my backswing ( according to those who know me and I play with ) and it has produced the most connected and consistent swing ever for me.  I literally hit every club on a string . Sure Iíll miss one or two a round slightly thin or similar. But directional itís rediculous how straight Iím hitting it.  3 months now and is engrained.  Power is up etc.  

As for those saying ď feel vs real ď I would argue feel is the only real that matters.  I do not make a habit of filming my swing.  I do not like to loook and dissect it.  Sort of likel people who donít like to hear their voice on tape.  I know that feel isnít always real. But results are real. And truly all that matters.     No my swing isnít ugly.  Is just not exactly what it feels like.  I donít want to go chasing a good video and lose the good feel. Anyone who argues with that logic needs to re evaluate their teaching ideals.
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#40 Exactice808

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 03:05 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 05 June 2018 - 05:07 AM, said:

Copied from Silkys thread - Montes Plane and Release feel too good to be true;

I followed up on Golfbeats recommendation and watched part two;



I had the same Ah moment Exactice 808 had a couple of days before he started his thread. My friend and when went to have some clubs built and she picked hers up before I could get mine so I went round to look at them.

We were outside on a gravel path and I did not want to risk hitting the ground so I swung them like the video above with the club head about 18 inches above the ground. I realised then how little the arms do.

Played on Sunday with mixed results, hooked 3 drives when normally my miss is a push but hit some lovely straight irons and 3 perfect drives down the middle with a slight draw.

The thing I haven't worked out is unfolding the trail arm and whether it should be done consciously to get a bit of extra snap into the 'swing'.

Edit: The thing is that when I was 'swinging' my friends new club I was just trying to get the feel of it. In the absence of a ball to hit I was more connected like the 9-3 thread Dan put up and that's why it became noticeable how little the arms do.


So I have a short cut club at home that I have been engraving these new movements to retrain the body.   that being said,  When I first started this out,  I did the 9-3 so there was no folding of the trail arm or vertical lift to increase width of swing.   The intent was to keep the triangle and rotate the body,  Pretty much a flat rounded swing.

as the body started to memorize the movement, I then went into the normal swing.   HERE IS THE KICKER.

1) I stopped actively setting the wrist.  
1a) By doing so, when I took it to the top of the swing, I would rotate hard, this then naturally bend the wrist creating the lag, and same with the trail elbow. (like trying to crack a whip, seen this video but never could comprehend, now it makes sense)
1b) During the downswing I am NOT increasing or holding the lag, the body rotation creates the arm lag
1c) By the time the arms reach my right thigh, gravity has kicked in and my arms and club begin its natural recoil or release.  At this point the club is then delivered to the ball naturally with ABSOLUTELY NO HAND OR ARM MANIPULATION.  (here is the tricky part though)  Depending on how much rotation you succeeded in,  is dependent on how square you impact, if you did not rotate enough the ball will go right.  if you over rotate the ball will go left.  if you get the right timing down and this is PURELY only practice the ball should go straight.



I spent 2 large buckets, and 1 hour range session purely figuring out this timing, what was natural with no active arms and hands, and how much my body had to rotate to get the most predictable flight. does my miss want to be right, I limit my rotation a touch,  I want to miss left, I make sure my chest is pointing left as I rotated hard.  

the biggest thing I find, is at any point I actively add my hands or arms to manipulate the shot,   The SHOT WILL go astray.  but if I keep my arms as passive as possible and let the arms do things naturally, the shot becomes WAY more consistent!

Edited by Exactice808, 06 June 2018 - 02:26 PM.

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#41 deathbymuffin

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 02:04 PM

I've had the same Ah Ha moment just recently as well, where the arm swing illusion concept finally clicked for me.  Like many, I've spent the past 25 years swinging my arms around my body, getting stuck and dumped under, and then sliding my body forward and throwing the arms out at the ball in an extreme in-to-out path that produced nasty hooks or even the occasional in-to-out hosel rocket.  From comparing my swing to videos of pros, I knew I needed to get a more vertical motion to my swing and to keep the clubhead from getting behind my hands, but even when I pulled it off in the backswing, I would still try to throw the arms forward from that position instead of just letting them drop.  

Well, a couple of weeks ago I was yet again struggling at the range, dumped under and hitting fat or hooking it left.  I decided I was going to try to lift the arms straight up in front of me so that the clubhead felt like it never got further behind me than my right pectoral muscle.  I did it and tried my normal downswing action and I had to dump my shoulder and just flip my hands at the ball.  I just stood there for a while and thought about it…how do I get the club back to the ball from this position?  The only way to do it while turning would be to literally drop the arms straight down.  I took some practice swings doing this and immediately could feel how effortless this was and how much more speed I could create than “swinging” the clubhead into the ball.  It also automatically got my hands working low and left around my left thigh.  And then it finally hit me!  When watching the pros and other good players, the arms appear to be “swinging” diagonally forwards (towards) the ball because of the blending of the arm drop with the pivot.  The backswing is just staying connected, creating some angles with your waist bend, and then just turning your shoulders as your right arm folds/left wrist cocks in front of your chest.  Then, from that point, all the downswing is, is a hammering motion straight down with your arms/wrists as you turn the through the ball.  My hooks immediately disappeared - replaced with straight shots or fades/slices (when a bit of the old pivot snuck in).    Once I really concentrated on fully releasing the angles by impact (right arm straightening and as much ulnar deviation as I could pour on the top), I started killing the ball.  Gained a club and a half with my irons with what felt like a much easier motion.  All I think about now is turn and hammer down!  Adding a little secondary tilt gives me all the minimal in-to-out I need to hit a very slight controlled draw.  

I’m willing to bet that very few recreational golfers have any real understanding of this concept.  I was a pretty good junior player and even now, as an adult, could shoot the odd round of par, but I had no consistency whatsoever, because I wasn’t able to grasp the way that the arms needed to work until now for some reason.

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#42 Exactice808

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 02:25 PM

View Postdeathbymuffin, on 06 June 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

I've had the same Ah Ha moment just recently as well, where the arm swing illusion concept finally clicked for me.  Like many, I've spent the past 25 years swinging my arms around my body, getting stuck and dumped under, and then sliding my body forward and throwing the arms out at the ball in an extreme in-to-out path that produced nasty hooks or even the occasional in-to-out hosel rocket.  From comparing my swing to videos of pros, I knew I needed to get a more vertical motion to my swing and to keep the clubhead from getting behind my hands, but even when I pulled it off in the backswing, I would still try to throw the arms forward from that position instead of just letting them drop.  

Well, a couple of weeks ago I was yet again struggling at the range, dumped under and hitting fat or hooking it left.  I decided I was going to try to lift the arms straight up in front of me so that the clubhead felt like it never got further behind me than my right pectoral muscle.  I did it and tried my normal downswing action and I had to dump my shoulder and just flip my hands at the ball.  I just stood there for a while and thought about it…how do I get the club back to the ball from this position?  The only way to do it while turning would be to literally drop the arms straight down.  I took some practice swings doing this and immediately could feel how effortless this was and how much more speed I could create than “swinging” the clubhead into the ball.  It also automatically got my hands working low and left around my left thigh.  And then it finally hit me!  When watching the pros and other good players, the arms appear to be “swinging” diagonally forwards (towards) the ball because of the blending of the arm drop with the pivot.  The backswing is just staying connected, creating some angles with your waist bend, and then just turning your shoulders as your right arm folds/left wrist cocks in front of your chest.  Then, from that point, all the downswing is, is a hammering motion straight down with your arms/wrists as you turn the through the ball.  My hooks immediately disappeared - replaced with straight shots or fades/slices (when a bit of the old pivot snuck in). Once I really concentrated on fully releasing the angles by impact (right arm straightening and as much ulnar deviation as I could pour on the top), I started killing the ball.  Gained a club and a half with my irons with what felt like a much easier motion.  All I think about now is turn and hammer down!  Adding a little secondary tilt gives me all the minimal in-to-out I need to hit a very slight controlled draw.  

I’m willing to bet that very few recreational golfers have any real understanding of this concept.  I was a pretty good junior player and even now, as an adult, could shoot the odd round of par, but I had no consistency whatsoever, because I wasn’t able to grasp the way that the arms needed to work until now for some reason.

BINGO BINGO!!


Here is the thing,

1) This is more of a growing pain for those trying to continually reach the next level of golf
2) Again watching my Daughter @ 2yrs old, it almost instinctive to use the arms actively, same with the highschool hackers @ the range.
3) For those that watch videos and or browse GolfWRX we are ever evolving and this is just the next stage to take us to the next level
4) NOT everyone gets it, or NOT every has to go through it,  but my assumption is that many of us that are self taught or have limited lessons or limited funds to take the game as seriously as other. We struggle with these concepts and or actual comprehension.
5) Finally are those that can or CANNOT physically or are limited to specific physical attributes so the have to evolve in their own way.

I think this is a great generalized fix and UNDERSTANDING for many of the mid range golfers, that may or may not comprehend the actual concepts.  We can watch and tweak and fix all we want to make the ball straight,  but there is a very consistent point of instruction...... The arms should remain passive and MUCH of the movements are initiated by a proper upper torso rotation first.


Anyways, I am supper happy to see more and more people validate the generic point I am trying to relay and I hope the other golfers out there are using this thread to "click" and have their own Ah Ha moments to improve their game!!
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#43 alfriday

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 07:35 PM

I have been reading older instruction manuals, books by authors such as Percy Boomer and Ernest Jones.  What is interesting is the old teachers started with drills to take the arms out of the swing.  They had students swing a ball on a rope (or a pocket knife on a ribbon) at first, and then the ball on a rope in time with a club.  They had drills like I mentioned in my first post above, which let the student feel a turn, and synced arm movement, without active arms pulling the club.  

Here Jones talks about the swing (passive arms) vs. active arms, which he calls pushing or pulling on the club:

The handkerchief in its movement serves as a check on whether there is an actual swing of the clubbed.  If I push or pull on the shaft of the club, it may still be moved through a similar arch, but the movement of the knife and the handkerchief will not coincide.  Leverage, replacing swinging, may produce a result that appeals to the eye as being quite similar, because the shaft of the golf club is stiff and therefore a suitable medium for levering.  but you cannot apply leverage through a highly flexible medium, such as a string or handkerchief.  

It is interesting that what was once the first fundamental of learning a swing is now something the must be discovered.

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#44 Exactice808

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 02:46 PM

Update Time!!! Week 2 and....... MOMENTUM!
77.png


77,  42 Front 35 Back, I have NEVER in my life shot under par on a side EVER.....That being said, I was 1 under after 4, even par after the bogey, then made a chip in eagle.  Shaking scrambled for par on 17 and still shaking made an easy bogey on 18 that could have been a par, but it was a tough tough come back putt.


OK OK, So if you look at all my stats in general things have NOT changed BUT and a HUGE but, NO blow up holes.  What do I mean, I still average about 33 putts per round.... I still average about 8 Greens in regulations,  But no triples or quads and minimized the doubles.


What else.... THE AH HA move is in full effect.


Im going to update my Ah HA move.


1) BACK SWING;  All my swing thought is FULL trunck rotation THATS IT, no other thoughts
2) DOWN Swing,  HIT with my right side.  THATS IT!


yesterday never once, thought about hands at impact, lag, direction face angle.   I swung freely with the 2 swing thoughts above.


The trunck rotation sets everything in motion,  hitting with the ride side squares everything and is what creates the lag and impact. MY body does everything unconsciously, so there is no point in me trying to artificially manipulate.  Its easier to move bigger muscles than the smaller tiny muscle, with accuracy.  

So when I started the round I was blocking the shots, meaning the face was open at impact, INSTEAD of futting around with hands arms etc... I just rotated a bit more on the down swing.  After that,  Ball was straight predictable and I did NOT have to do any tiny adjustments. IT was EASIER golf.


I kept the game really simple yesterday and was successful in shooting the 2nd best score of my life......Again this is coming from a 97 2 weeks ago and 2 broken clubs......the AH HA moment I think carriers much more weight and validation now......
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#45 bladehunter

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:32 PM

So funny that my finding are so much the same.  Let me guess. You finish with hands pretty high ?

Edited by bladehunter, 08 June 2018 - 08:33 PM.

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#46 BenHoganSlam1953

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 09:03 PM

I just swing the club after deciding what shot I want to do... my aha moment was getting the correct effective grip size on my driver down to lob wedge ... having the right grip size appears to have corrected my setup issues and removed all of the fixes I tried to make in my swing.

I'll see where I am tomorrow
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#47 Exactice808

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 12:38 PM

CBEA6027-334C-403A-B448-860F315624F8.jpeg

So had to build on the momentum don't normally golf on the weekend. But had an opportunity and begged the wife. LOL
79 straight forward round. Again minimized blow ups. Minimal swing thoughts. Very consistent ball striking. Increased GIR from Thursday also meant increased putts. So reflexive
I really think I found a real aH Ha moment.  

Its official MOST 70's round I have shot to date.  Especially in one year

I average 1 Eagle a year.  Last 3 rounds I have 1 eagle per round.  All it means is ball is going in the direction I tend it to.  Amazing!

Edited by Exactice808, 10 June 2018 - 12:47 PM.

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#48 Exactice808

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:13 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 June 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

So funny that my finding are so much the same.  Let me guess. You finish with hands pretty high ?

I am not sure what "High" is LOL,  I really really need to take a video soon so I can compare the evolution of my swing, it is amazing,  I am sure many people have gone through the same.

Again as for high not sure,  I feel its a pretty standard finish as nothing in my finish has really changed, BUT much more has changed for mental thoughts, consistency. Its amazing!
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#49 bladehunter

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 10:36 PM

View PostExactice808, on 11 June 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 June 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

So funny that my finding are so much the same.  Let me guess. You finish with hands pretty high ?

I am not sure what "High" is LOL,  I really really need to take a video soon so I can compare the evolution of my swing, it is amazing,  I am sure many people have gone through the same.

Again as for high not sure,  I feel its a pretty standard finish as nothing in my finish has really changed, BUT much more has changed for mental thoughts, consistency. Its amazing!



no wrong answer.. Just curious..  Do you hit a fade or a draw if you have a preference?  

For me .. I add to what youve describe in a backswing and the connected arms feeling..  Add a high finish similar to Jack or Vijay for a high fade , or drop it slightly down and finish  left for a lower draw. Or use the high hands finish with a sqaure to path face and you can hit a fade that is 99% straight ...will just fall right if not perfectly straight.


disclaimer-   My swing is quite upright , so im not really changing my path too much for a draw or a fade...  so if you are flatter it may not make as much sense when i talk about finishes.
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#50 Exactice808

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 02:51 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 June 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

View PostExactice808, on 11 June 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 June 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

So funny that my finding are so much the same.  Let me guess. You finish with hands pretty high ?

I am not sure what "High" is LOL,  I really really need to take a video soon so I can compare the evolution of my swing, it is amazing,  I am sure many people have gone through the same.

Again as for high not sure,  I feel its a pretty standard finish as nothing in my finish has really changed, BUT much more has changed for mental thoughts, consistency. Its amazing!



no wrong answer.. Just curious..  Do you hit a fade or a draw if you have a preference?  

For me .. I add to what youve describe in a backswing and the connected arms feeling..  Add a high finish similar to Jack or Vijay for a high fade , or drop it slightly down and finish  left for a lower draw. Or use the high hands finish with a sqaure to path face and you can hit a fade that is 99% straight ...will just fall right if not perfectly straight.


disclaimer-   My swing is quite upright , so im not really changing my path too much for a draw or a fade...  so if you are flatter it may not make as much sense when i talk about finishes.

So here is the generic answer.

Irons with a square setup, I normally hit a Draw. (likely due to shorter length easier to cover)
Woods and Driver again Square setup, I hit a slight fade. (Im 5'8" so smaller likely with a flatter swing, I probably get a little more steep and still fight an OTT, so likely the fade)

NOW, here is the silly answer. I move the ball left or right intentionally based on setup.  I was taught this by a D2 captain player. He was awesome and found that rotating setup around the ball allows for the easiest way to hit a draw or fade, and it seems to work well for me.  MORE so now with this swing, since its very consistent, when I do actually rotate my setup around the ball and swing across my feet, it moves in the intended direction pretty darn consistently.


Its funny I just re-watched the Arm Swing Illusion and watched the clip video of Jim's take,  Amazing, that what he explains is EXACTLY what finally sunk in.... mind you 6+ years on this site and evolving swing only now to finally understand it!



More so....I can honestly say right now its a pretty good under pressure, swing as my idiot friends were giving me SOOOO much Gas last week Thursday when I shot my first under par 9. They have known me for years NEVER did it, so they were BIG time jerks (all for fun) hassling me ..."OOOOHHH you are 1 under....oooohhh you are 2 under....." LOL But I didnt choke, just stuck with the 2 swing thoughts and it held steady!!!!

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#51 Irae133

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:31 PM

Hey Ex,

Went to the range tonight and I had great success with my irons but for some reason I can't seem to hit a reliable draw with my driver, similar to what you just said above. So is what you are saying is you just move the ball back in your stance with your driver to hit a draw? For the life of me I can't hit a draw with my driver with the ball forward in my stance.

Edited by Irae133, 12 June 2018 - 07:35 PM.


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#52 Exactice808

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:52 PM

View PostIrae133, on 12 June 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Hey Ex,

Went to the range tonight and I had great success with my irons but for some reason I can't seem to hit a reliable draw with my driver, similar to what you just said above. So is what you are saying is you just move the ball back in your stance with your driver to hit a draw? For the life of me I can't hit a draw with my driver with the ball forward in my stance.

For me,  to manipulate the ball I rotate around the ball.  So no I dont move the ball back in my stance, I rotate around the ball.


Attached is my generic picture
Shot movement.png

First off remember, Target line always REMAINS the SAME.  the only thing that is changing is that you are "orbiting" around the ball .

The black dots represent, a square normal setup ball in the middle. the black line is the face angle and setup straight with the ball down the target line.

The Green Dots represent, a Draw/Hook shot you rotate around the ball clock wise, (while keeping the same natural distance from the ball),  this now closes your feet stance from the target line and opens the face of the club to the target path, the ball is now further back in your stance naturally as well.  You now swing down your FEET path and the ball should draw.


The Red Dots represent, a Fade/Slice shot, you rotate counter clock wise.  Your feet are now open to the target line,  the Club face is now closed to target line and the ball is now forward of your normal stance.  Swing down your Feet line and the ball should fade.


Hope this make sense.



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Love it!!!

Edited by Exactice808, 12 June 2018 - 08:09 PM.

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#53 Irae133

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:01 PM

Makes perfect sense. Thank you!

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#54 Exactice808

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:05 PM

View PostIrae133, on 12 June 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Hey Ex,

Went to the range tonight and I had great success with my irons but for some reason I can't seem to hit a reliable draw with my driver, similar to what you just said above. So is what you are saying is you just move the ball back in your stance with your driver to hit a draw? For the life of me I can't hit a draw with my driver with the ball forward in my stance.

Part 2,

The reason why I am NOT a fan of moving the ball back or forward of stances is below.
Moving.png

Black again, is square setup.  Face angle is square to target,

Green the ball is further back in your stance, but when you setup,  many forget to either open the face naturally as the ball to properly draw it needs to "START" right of target line,  But many times people dont OPEN the face. You "START" down the target line and it draws or HOOKS left. Secondly, the only way to get it going left is to come over the top steep and that is where the pull hooks come from.

Red the ball is forward of stance yet again face is square to target.  people forget you need to close the face.  Then again they need to get a cut,  so they usually get really out to in and pull hard with the left arm and guess what, face open @ impact, starts down the target line and slices way right.

My previous post again does NOT change any setup,  but rather just orbits around the ball to get your club face, swing path in the proper positions without manipulating.  All you do is swing down your feet line, thats it!.

The only way to get the club path moving opposite is to move the arms way inside to get that inside to outside path or to move the arms outside to in ....again the whole point of my thread is to LIMIT any un essential arm movements!

Edited by Exactice808, 12 June 2018 - 08:26 PM.

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#55 hbgpagolfpro

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:51 PM

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

Part 2,

Left wrist at impact..... leading left wrist,  bowed left wrist,  delofting @ impact


OMG...... I have been trying to achieve this through manipulation.  But this IS NOT what I see from pro's  and from videos ever (after closer inspection)

http://youtu.be/8n9BBNEj3yk?t=2m29s

Lydia Ko Hands @ impact

http://youtu.be/MiPq0zmI_Bo?t=2m7s

Rory @ impact


what I mean is I see videos and explanations where people say back of your hand needs to be pointed down towards the target/ground.... but in slow motion its never this way,


secondly, by rotating your wrist to force your wrist to have that forward bowed left wrist, is manipulation that in my opinion goes against the "golf" Turn".

I see it as you bend/flex the wrist in the back swing,  and un flex But NOT intentionally rotate or bow your wrist at Impact.


I do SEE and understand that much of the instruction is Intended to help create the sensation and NOT meant to be the end all.




http://youtu.be/-FH5r5_tROU?t=1m46s  after 6 years on this site and 6 years of playing, I think I finally understand what the hell Monte was trying to explain in this video!

I've always felt that if you are thinking about what the hands are doing in the golf swing, you've got no chance.  I focus my attention on what the body is doing...get the sequencing right and everything else falls into place.

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#56 Exactice808

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:37 PM

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 12 June 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:



I've always felt that if you are thinking about what the hands are doing in the golf swing, you've got no chance.  I focus my attention on what the body is doing...get the sequencing right and everything else falls into place.

Funny that you bring this up.  I noticed this as a by product of this ah ha moment.  What I mean is circa 3 rounds I was conscious of all the little things going on in the golf swing.  Strong grip vs weak grip, inside to outside swing path, weight shift vs lateral shift etc etc.

It became cumbersome and stressful to just maintain this and play golf at the same time.  


Now these last 3 rounds I have NEVER ever once, cared and or thought about impact, All it was, was proper back swing rotation and hitting with the right side.  Oddly, enough just knowing I am hitting with my right side, the ball goes in the intended direction, I ball flight seems to be the same and anticipated height I always have. distance has increased just a touch,  and direction is WAY more predictable and straight.

WHY? because I am not trying to manipulate the 2mm face closure, or the increase forward shaft lean. I just let things fall and funny enough the less I move around and just let the big muscles do its thing.  The more consistent and I can focus on things that REALLY matter like, actual course management and putting lines and speeds of putts that make Pars, Birdies and Yups Eagles......  I make 1 eagle a year......and last 3 rounds, I made 3......all legit..... I wonder why? I am not that lucky....
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#57 neilcsd

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:12 PM

I've had so many ah-ha moments I've lost count.  these moments are leased, never owned...don't forget :D

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#58 Exactice808

Exactice808

    Just want to hit ball far and go find it...

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:22 PM

View Postneilcsd, on 13 June 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

I've had so many ah-ha moments I've lost count.  these moments are leased, never owned...don't forget :D

So have I, but this is the first one that translated to my scoring.  It cant be a coincidence.   3 rounds, 3 different courses, 3 different groups of friends. I am playing again Thursday as usual.  But again..... why has my score dropped.  As I still DONT practice, just went to the range that 1 time to beat balls and get this move locked in.  Have not been back to the range since.  


there has to be a point where things finally clicked....and it seems this one might.....and I say it very lightly might... have actually set in!
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#59 neilcsd

neilcsd

    Addicted beyond obsession.

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:46 PM

View PostExactice808, on 13 June 2018 - 04:22 PM, said:

View Postneilcsd, on 13 June 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

I've had so many ah-ha moments I've lost count.  these moments are leased, never owned...don't forget :D

So have I, but this is the first one that translated to my scoring.  It cant be a coincidence.   3 rounds, 3 different courses, 3 different groups of friends. I am playing again Thursday as usual.  But again..... why has my score dropped.  As I still DONT practice, just went to the range that 1 time to beat balls and get this move locked in.  Have not been back to the range since.  


there has to be a point where things finally clicked....and it seems this one might.....and I say it very lightly might... have actually set in!

I know what you mean I think - I have a fairly fundamentally sound swing that can only have come from ingraining things into my subconscious so that I don't have to worry about them anymore.  I just have those days where things are just like what the a** is going on I'm hitting SO MUCH better than I usually do!  and I figure it out, but the next day I can't replicate.  It's irritating!  But I love the sport.

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#60 deathbymuffin

deathbymuffin

    Tour Winner

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:57 PM

Exactice,

You said you're 5'8".  Just curious. Do you happen to have long arms for your height?  I'm 5'7"(and 1/2) with long arms (for instance, i used to be able to dunk a baseball on a 10' hoop).  I'm just wondering if our body type tends to have these specific problems.

And my very same A Ha moment still seems to be sticking at the range.  I've all but eliminated my "unplayable" strikes.  The ASI realization has also improved my chipping, pitching and bunker play, which were inconsistent at best and occasionally riddled with shanks.  Now I just need a putting Ah Ha moment...haha.


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