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Ah ha Moment

Another One!

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#1 Exactice808

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM

Hey Gang, its been a long time....... But I thought I would share and or edify something.


This is more to the actual coaches/teachers (to again edify) and to those that just want to have something else to mess up their SWING LOL.


is the Golf "Swing" term incorrect? IS golf NOT actually a swing but a Golf "Turn"

After all these years on GolfWRX and all these years of tinkering,  personally for me I have come to the realization that my arms should NEVER swing at all.  When the arms start to move as whole that is when the golf swing breaks down completely.

Now the arms do "MOVE",  But in a vertical motion up and down.  and it may move (swing) due to force but not consciously.

With my swing now ( thinking tennis ball kymer drill and golf shirt)  your arms maintain that triangle, you dont pull your arms or move your arms, you sit,  rotate from your shoulders/hips. your arms move vertically UP and DOWN but never should they "swing" or rotate on its own around the body. (of course this is based on your flexibility, but generally speaking the athletic motion)


From there, again your arms do not swing, you dont swing the club, the arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates. the Trunk rotation is all natural, no conscious movement.


from there the speed comes from the flex of the wrist not swinging the arms.  

(Stand by for Part 2)

OK so does this all make sense or did I just ruin the game even more.


I guess, I see and or was a product of swinging.  In my earlier swing videos, I would "swing the club" around, But The club should not be swung in my "term"  


Thoughts?

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#2 TTGolf77

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:02 PM

You must of missed the arm swing illusion thread while you were away.

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#3 dlanerie

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:05 PM

That and http://www.golfwrx.c...-pivot-in-sync/ which I find easier to visualize and understand.

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#4 Exactice808

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:09 PM

Part 2,

Left wrist at impact..... leading left wrist,  bowed left wrist,  delofting @ impact


OMG...... I have been trying to achieve this through manipulation.  But this IS NOT what I see from pro's  and from videos ever (after closer inspection)

http://youtu.be/8n9BBNEj3yk?t=2m29s

Lydia Ko Hands @ impact

http://youtu.be/MiPq0zmI_Bo?t=2m7s

Rory @ impact


what I mean is I see videos and explanations where people say back of your hand needs to be pointed down towards the target/ground.... but in slow motion its never this way,


secondly, by rotating your wrist to force your wrist to have that forward bowed left wrist, is manipulation that in my opinion goes against the "golf" Turn".

I see it as you bend/flex the wrist in the back swing,  and un flex But NOT intentionally rotate or bow your wrist at Impact.


I do SEE and understand that much of the instruction is Intended to help create the sensation and NOT meant to be the end all.




http://youtu.be/-FH5r5_tROU?t=1m46s  after 6 years on this site and 6 years of playing, I think I finally understand what the hell Monte was trying to explain in this video!

Edited by Exactice808, 23 May 2018 - 07:14 PM.

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#5 Exactice808

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 07:12 PM

View PostTTGolf77, on 23 May 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

You must of missed the arm swing illusion thread while you were away.

its funny I have read it thousands of times... JUST could never comprehend it! Until 6+ years later LOL

View Postdlanerie, on 23 May 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

That and http://www.golfwrx.c...-pivot-in-sync/ which I find easier to visualize and understand.

See again! Now that I personally understand it,  the article makes sense,  BUT circa 6 years ago if I read it, I still would NOT have comprehended it


More so I keep watching other videos and other instruction, that seem to bandaid around this, BUT to me should this NOT be the fundamental teaching?

Edited by Exactice808, 23 May 2018 - 07:39 PM.

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#6 oikos1

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 07:16 AM

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

Hey Gang, its been a long time....... But I thought I would share and or edify something.


This is more to the actual coaches/teachers (to again edify) and to those that just want to have something else to mess up their SWING LOL.


is the Golf "Swing" term incorrect? IS golf NOT actually a swing but a Golf "Turn"

After all these years on GolfWRX and all these years of tinkering,  personally for me I have come to the realization that my arms should NEVER swing at all.  When the arms start to move as whole that is when the golf swing breaks down completely.

Now the arms do "MOVE",  But in a vertical motion up and down.  and it may move (swing) due to force but not consciously.

With my swing now ( thinking tennis ball kymer drill and golf shirt)  your arms maintain that triangle, you dont pull your arms or move your arms, you sit,  rotate from your shoulders/hips. your arms move vertically UP and DOWN but never should they "swing" or rotate on its own around the body. (of course this is based on your flexibility, but generally speaking the athletic motion)


From there, again your arms do not swing, you dont swing the club, the arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates. the Trunk rotation is all natural, no conscious movement.


from there the speed comes from the flex of the wrist not swinging the arms.  

(Stand by for Part 2)

OK so does this all make sense or did I just ruin the game even more.


I guess, I see and or was a product of swinging.  In my earlier swing videos, I would "swing the club" around, But The club should not be swung in my "term"  


Thoughts?

If you're not swinging the club, I'd like to know what it is you are doing.

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#7 dbleag

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 07:42 AM

On Feherty's Show last week, Paul Azinger said the swing is "two turns and a swish".

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#8 Exactice808

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 02:09 PM

View Postoikos1, on 24 May 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

Hey Gang, its been a long time....... But I thought I would share and or edify something.


This is more to the actual coaches/teachers (to again edify) and to those that just want to have something else to mess up their SWING LOL.


is the Golf "Swing" term incorrect? IS golf NOT actually a swing but a Golf "Turn"

After all these years on GolfWRX and all these years of tinkering,  personally for me I have come to the realization that my arms should NEVER swing at all.  When the arms start to move as whole that is when the golf swing breaks down completely.

Now the arms do "MOVE",  But in a vertical motion up and down.  and it may move (swing) due to force but not consciously.

With my swing now ( thinking tennis ball kymer drill and golf shirt)  your arms maintain that triangle, you dont pull your arms or move your arms, you sit,  rotate from your shoulders/hips. your arms move vertically UP and DOWN but never should they "swing" or rotate on its own around the body. (of course this is based on your flexibility, but generally speaking the athletic motion)


From there, again your arms do not swing, you dont swing the club, the arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates. the Trunk rotation is all natural, no conscious movement.


from there the speed comes from the flex of the wrist not swinging the arms.  

(Stand by for Part 2)

OK so does this all make sense or did I just ruin the game even more.


I guess, I see and or was a product of swinging.  In my earlier swing videos, I would "swing the club" around, But The club should not be swung in my "term"  


Thoughts?

If you're not swinging the club, I'd like to know what it is you are doing.

LOL I am assuming you did not read my explanation.

Again to me swinging involves active arm movements.  From my evolution, I found that the less arm movement, and the greater body rotation creates better levers, speed and consistency on impact.  So again,  I dont intentionally "swing" the club,  the club basically stays static, I ROTATE, the upper torso and create the lever at the wrist,  let go the lever once my torso comes to center and continue the torso rotation and not increase the arm movement.

View Postdbleag, on 24 May 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

On Feherty's Show last week, Paul Azinger said the swing is "two turns and a swish".

That Makes a lot of SENSE to me now and I agree! Again,  This really is dependent on body mechanics and flexibility.  There are people that just cannot fully rotate the upper torso I get it.

But its funny watching my daughter 2-1/2 and the natural thing for them is to "Swing" their arms at the ball, like shes swatting a fly.  For simple mechanics this makes sense,  But in the high level golf, you dont see pro's swatting with their arms.  The arms stay passive.


Anyways,  again it was just an Ah Ha moment that I kinda wanted to edify.


The simple answer was posted about the Arm Swing illusion.  I have watched it,  understood it for the illusion part but misunderstood the concept.   I have watched Montes, videos again understood it but completely missed the concept of why the additional videos that he applies and provides.  Every time I watch an instruction video, its to correct an existing flaw.  But the Flaws come up because of the basic swing model that I Lacked.  


Its funny, if you DO NOT grasp the simple basics of the swing.... when you apply all the other instructions it sometimes does not work, but makes things worse LOL

Edited by Exactice808, 01 June 2018 - 03:16 PM.

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#9 Irae133

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 09:16 PM

I'm right there with you, Ex. I just had everything click for me today and I took myself to the range to give it a shot. I've know about Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion video for a couple years now but I've been digging deep on gwrx and other forums to find out why I'm so inconsistent. Turns out I've had an army swing my whole life and I probably would never drop by below a 12 cap unless I did figure it out.

My session at the range was a little all over the place but I did notice I was hitting the middle of the clubface evrrytime. Misses were a combination of pulls and pushes but I believe that's just from not being used to having to square the clubface correctly with the proper swing.

Took my new swing to league tonight and I was a little hesitant but I'd rather shoot a bad round with a proper swing than keep swinging with my arms. I ended up shooting a 43 but that was because I couldn't get off the tee box (I didn't trust myself yet with the new swing to do it off the box). I guess I should have because on the three par 3s I hit the green and made par. Everything else was a punch shot to save my bad tee shot. Irons were flush all night. Had it not been for the bad hits off the box I could of snagged a 38 easily.

Definitely going to keep swinging this way from here on out and I have great confidence I'll figure out the longer clubs soon enough. Anyway just my story on the arm swing illusion.

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#10 games

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

The arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates.
Thoughts?

I like it!  Tried it yesterday on pitches at the practice green with a Whippy Tempomaster sand wedge.  I was never able to hit the Whippy well, as flush shots were always right.  Your post gave me an "Aha" moment as it made me think of the forces applied in the swing and how the Whippy would react...

First shot was flush, and it was far less right than I am used to.  I fluffed the second shot.  Third shot bounced twice and went into the hole as if I putted it.  Subsequent shots reinforced my thinking.  Confining the hands and arms to application of vertical force greatly reduced Whippy head movement and made it easier to square the face.  

I'm hopeful to keep patient with this, and continue to work on it with the Whippy SW.

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#11 Man_O_War

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 03:46 PM

View Postdbleag, on 24 May 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

On Feherty's Show last week, Paul Azinger said the swing is "two turns and a swish".

you want to be careful with Azinger golf swing tips...he has such a strong grip..and arguably one of the most unorthodox motions ever

View Postgames, on 26 May 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

The arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates.
Thoughts?

I like it!  Tried it yesterday on pitches at the practice green with a Whippy Tempomaster sand wedge.  I was never able to hit the Whippy well, as flush shots were always right.  Your post gave me an "Aha" moment as it made me think of the forces applied in the swing and how the Whippy would react...

First shot was flush, and it was far less right than I am used to.  I fluffed the second shot.  Third shot bounced twice and went into the hole as if I putted it.  Subsequent shots reinforced my thinking.  Confining the hands and arms to application of vertical force greatly reduced Whippy head movement and made it easier to square the face.  

I'm hopeful to keep patient with this, and continue to work on it with the Whippy SW.

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#12 games

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 07:59 PM

Yeah, cos Iím so all in on Clement... <\s>
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#13 Exactice808

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:20 PM

View PostMan_O_War, on 26 May 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

View Postdbleag, on 24 May 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

On Feherty's Show last week, Paul Azinger said the swing is "two turns and a swish".

you want to be careful with Azinger golf swing tips...he has such a strong grip..and arguably one of the most unorthodox motions ever

View Postgames, on 26 May 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostExactice808, on 23 May 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

The arms "fall" naturally and vertically while your trunk rotates.
Thoughts?

I like it!  Tried it yesterday on pitches at the practice green with a Whippy Tempomaster sand wedge.  I was never able to hit the Whippy well, as flush shots were always right.  Your post gave me an "Aha" moment as it made me think of the forces applied in the swing and how the Whippy would react...

First shot was flush, and it was far less right than I am used to.  I fluffed the second shot.  Third shot bounced twice and went into the hole as if I putted it.  Subsequent shots reinforced my thinking.  Confining the hands and arms to application of vertical force greatly reduced Whippy head movement and made it easier to square the face.  

I'm hopeful to keep patient with this, and continue to work on it with the Whippy SW.

this is shawn clement playbook mantra

I question this, Unorthodox?  I see the strong grip?  But looking face on and DTL,  the movements are very similar,  Club stays in front of chest,  upper trunk rotates,  on downsting arms drop vertically and the rotation continues?  The grip is just the adjustment of natural timing to open and close the face, It what way does this change my point, that the Golf is not a SWING, its rotation of trunks, from my observation and opinion, you should NOT swing the club?
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#14 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 04:25 PM

"...your arms maintain that triangle..."

So, you don't bend your trail arm in the backswing, or your lead arm in the follow-through? As soon as one of your arms bends, it's not a triangle anymore. Also, if one of your arms bends while the other is straight, it's no longer 'up and down', as well.

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#15 Exactice808

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 04:38 PM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 01 June 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

"...your arms maintain that triangle..."

So, you don't bend your trail arm in the backswing, or your lead arm in the follow-through? As soon as one of your arms bends, it's not a triangle anymore. Also, if one of your arms bends while the other is straight, it's no longer 'up and down', as well.

Sorry sorry,  Yes my statement was NOT as a whole golf turn.  IT was the initial back swing, what I notice again and what I noticed I did, was I would swing my arms and clubs as the initiation of the "swing"  so instead of an Isosceles triangle,  It would be more of an obtuse triangle as I was pulling my arms across my chest.

Again there is the elevation of the arms on a vertical plane,  just not a swinging motion.

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#16 JamesBurg

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Edited by JamesBurg, 01 June 2018 - 10:55 PM.


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#17 dap

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:34 AM

Has ah ha become boo hoo yet?

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#18 alfriday

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:16 PM

Here is how I think about it:  The body turn causes the arms to swing.  Your body is swinging your arms and the club, the arms are not independently moving the club.  

Here is a summary of an exercise that I found in a older instruction book (sorry I don't remember which one), that helps the golfer feel the swing motion of the arms and club as a result of the turn.  

1.  Stand up like you are waiting in line at the market.  Arms at your side, relaxed but upright posture.  Now start to walk in place, without your feet coming off the ground.  Notice how the weight goes from ball of foot to heel on each foot.  Notice the way your hips will turn slightly.  Notice how your arms will move as the body moves, even though you are not "swinging" them.  Once you get the feeling of the arms moving without consciously swinging them, move on to two.

2.  Take your golf stance, without a club.  Bring your palms together so the pads of your palms are lightly toughing and so the tips of your fingers lightly touch.  Keep arms relaxed.  Now start walking like above.  Your hands will swing back and forth without any force in your arms. Feel your arms move because your body is moving.  There should be no pushing or pulling in your arms or hands--they are just going along for the ride.

3.  After you get the feel of walking, exaggerate it a bit into more of a full turn, working your way up to a full golf swing motion.  Make sure to keep the arms free of any tension and put no pressure on your finger tips.  Again, even though you are in a full swing move, the arms should just be going along for the ride.

4.  Now take your stance and pick up a club.  Take your grip, but hold the club a lightly as you can.  Start walking and feel the club move back and forth, just as your arms did above. Because of the weight of the club, your arms will be pulled a bit in each direction, farther than when just swinging your arms.  Work up a slow, steady rhythm and feel how the club will pause at the end of your backswing and fore swing, and then start the other direction.  

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#19 Exactice808

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:23 PM

View Postdap, on 02 June 2018 - 12:34 AM, said:

Has ah ha become boo hoo yet?

Usually this happens but actually NO boo hoo yet LOL its been pretty consistent actually a learning curve as expected but I also notice my ball flight is much straighter in dispersion as well.  Not sure why... but its been working nicely!
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#20 MadGolfer76

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:30 PM

I think more in terms of turning the body than swinging the club. I no longer really care what the arms and hands are doing. They are just a means to hold onto the club, and generally just along for the ride. On the way back, I only want to feel my front shoulder under my chin, and then from the top I just turn and look at the target. So long as my footwork hasn't gotten sloppy, I get a nice high straight shot.

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#21 Exactice808

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:37 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

I think more in terms of turning the body than swinging the club. I no longer really care what the arms and hands are doing. They are just a means to hold onto the club, and generally just along for the ride. On the way back, I only want to feel my front shoulder under my chin, and then from the top I just turn and look at the target. So long as my footwork hasn't gotten sloppy, I get a nice high straight shot.

So Im just being picky right, but I heard exactly what you stated many times, the arms are there for the ride.... But generically speaking,  "Swing" involves the arms to "Swing" the club. The less we actually use the arms actively the more consistent the shot seems to turn out? in my evolution that is.
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#22 MadGolfer76

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 01:06 PM

View PostExactice808, on 02 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

I think more in terms of turning the body than swinging the club. I no longer really care what the arms and hands are doing. They are just a means to hold onto the club, and generally just along for the ride. On the way back, I only want to feel my front shoulder under my chin, and then from the top I just turn and look at the target. So long as my footwork hasn't gotten sloppy, I get a nice high straight shot.

So Im just being picky right, but I heard exactly what you stated many times, the arms are there for the ride.... But generically speaking,  "Swing" involves the arms to "Swing" the club. The less we actually use the arms actively the more consistent the shot seems to turn out? in my evolution that is.

For a while (and even sometimes still) I do a reasonable amount of mirror practice. But what I figured out is that the two things I was really checking for was the first move away (my forward shoulder actively beginning the turn - basically "shoving" the rest of my fat a** into motion going back), and depth of hip turn. Both are aspects of turning, rather than swinging...in my opinion, at least. Semantics notwithstanding.

The place where I felt that I *had to* engage the arms (to save a shot) is if my footwork got sloppy. Meaning, if my trail foot heel was up off the ground before the strike happened. My feet should look more like Steve Stricker at impact, and if I pull that off, the turn through will basically pull the rest of me up and through post-impact.

edit: I will say that having a proper grip and setup are prerequisite to any of this working, and I put time in practicing both.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 02 June 2018 - 01:08 PM.

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#23 alfriday

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 02:41 PM

View PostExactice808, on 02 June 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

I think more in terms of turning the body than swinging the club. I no longer really care what the arms and hands are doing. They are just a means to hold onto the club, and generally just along for the ride. On the way back, I only want to feel my front shoulder under my chin, and then from the top I just turn and look at the target. So long as my footwork hasn't gotten sloppy, I get a nice high straight shot.

So Im just being picky right, but I heard exactly what you stated many times, the arms are there for the ride.... But generically speaking,  "Swing" involves the arms to "Swing" the club. The less we actually use the arms actively the more consistent the shot seems to turn out? in my evolution that is.

I have a pretty good, consistent golf motion.  My golf motion starts from the ground up.  The golf motion involves me transferring my weight and turning back and through.  I try to keep passive arms--they just go along for the ride.  The club moves with my arms.  The club head goes back and then forward through the ball area toward the target.

After reading this thread, I'm at a loss on what to call my golf motion.  I thought I had a golf swing.  I thought I was swinging my arms and club.  Now I learn I have to have active arms for it to be a swing?

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#24 NotForeLong

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

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#25 Fade

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 03:40 PM

OP, I don't think there is much wrong with the term golf swing. It describes the motion of (or action on) the golf club(-head) well enough for me, it doesn't matter how it is accomplished.


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#26 MadGolfer76

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 04:10 PM

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

No one is saying that it is. Just that there are some feels where you can focus on a minimum of details involving hitting the ball, and for some golfers, that means focusing on moving the core, versus what is attached to it.
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#27 NotForeLong

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 04:31 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

No one is saying that it is. Just that there are some feels where you can focus on a minimum of details involving hitting the ball, and for some golfers, that means focusing on moving the core, versus what is attached to it.

I’m not sure that I agree that OP isn’t saying that’s actually what happens. Even if you are right, there are plenty of others who do think that’s what happens, and I think it’s a very misguided notion that causes problems.  As I said, generally for good players, this feel absolutely can work. However, for most golfers whose arms aren’t working properly, this leads a world of steep shafts, no power, lots of pull hooks/fades, and even the occasional interaction between the ball and el hosel. My guess is that OP’s swing doesn’t look that different than before he made this discovery (if it has, I’d love to be wrong, I always enjoy genuine improvement, however it comes about, so show us some videos). There’s just a lot more actually going on than what’s been described and I think it just needs to be extremely clear that this is a vast oversimplification that may or may not work for others as a FEEL only.

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#28 MadGolfer76

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 05:32 PM

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

No one is saying that it is. Just that there are some feels where you can focus on a minimum of details involving hitting the ball, and for some golfers, that means focusing on moving the core, versus what is attached to it.

I’m not sure that I agree that OP isn’t saying that’s actually what happens. Even if you are right, there are plenty of others who do think that’s what happens, and I think it’s a very misguided notion that causes problems.  As I said, generally for good players, this feel absolutely can work. However, for most golfers whose arms aren’t working properly, this leads a world of steep shafts, no power, lots of pull hooks/fades, and even the occasional interaction between the ball and el hosel. My guess is that OP’s swing doesn’t look that different than before he made this discovery (if it has, I’d love to be wrong, I always enjoy genuine improvement, however it comes about, so show us some videos). There’s just a lot more actually going on than what’s been described and I think it just needs to be extremely clear that this is a vast oversimplification that may or may not work for others as a FEEL only.

Well, I suppose I should just speak for myself then. I haven't experienced any of the problems you mention. I don't pretend that what I feel is actually real, just that it is a feel that works for me.
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#29 NotForeLong

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 06:18 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 02 June 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View PostNotForeLong, on 02 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostJamesBurg, on 01 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Thread is lost in the wilderness.

Thread was lot in wilderness from first post. Some of this stuff is decent feels for good players, but no decent player keeps their arms in the same relative position to the body and no decent player just turns the spine (if you don’t have the proper side bend/ tilits you’ll just end up turning way off the ball). Again, maybe as feels some of this stuff works, but not close to what’s happening.

No one is saying that it is. Just that there are some feels where you can focus on a minimum of details involving hitting the ball, and for some golfers, that means focusing on moving the core, versus what is attached to it.

I’m not sure that I agree that OP isn’t saying that’s actually what happens. Even if you are right, there are plenty of others who do think that’s what happens, and I think it’s a very misguided notion that causes problems.  As I said, generally for good players, this feel absolutely can work. However, for most golfers whose arms aren’t working properly, this leads a world of steep shafts, no power, lots of pull hooks/fades, and even the occasional interaction between the ball and el hosel. My guess is that OP’s swing doesn’t look that different than before he made this discovery (if it has, I’d love to be wrong, I always enjoy genuine improvement, however it comes about, so show us some videos). There’s just a lot more actually going on than what’s been described and I think it just needs to be extremely clear that this is a vast oversimplification that may or may not work for others as a FEEL only.

Well, I suppose I should just speak for myself then. I haven't experienced any of the problems you mention. I don't pretend that what I feel is actually real, just that it is a feel that works for me.

I don’t think we really disagree. As I said in both my posts, it’s a feel that can work, but is generally much more successful with better players. My guess is that you are a low single digit or better. And as for feel vs real, we are on the same page with regard to that as well.

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#30 Silky

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 12:40 AM

Your AHA moment induced my AHA moment.
It is general agreed that torso rotation activated by lower body and then core in the main power source of a golf swing.  The spine shifting and tilting also provides.  But how the hands shift down relative to the torso from the shoulder level to the elbow level is still mysterious.  Some claim that the shift is from gravity, some claim it is from the spine tilting some claim it is from the right arm extending, or a bit of all of the above.  This got the amateur golf swing theoretician in me thinking.

I know that the pivot powers the swing by tugging the arms, hands and the club through the left shoulder joint and the right elbow joint.  So, the paths or orbits of the left shoulder joint and the right elbow joint must be very important but I have observed that there has been very scarce discussions about them, at least here at GolfWRX.  Treating the torso as a rigid barrel and the left shoulder and right elbow orbits as parts of parallel circles does not seem to be correct to me.  We can view slow motion of Hogan's swing and observe that through impact, his lead shoulder is rising skyward while the right arm is executing what Hogan described as side arm throw. The orbit of the lead shoulder is steeper that the orbit of the right elbow.  In tugging things, like a shopping cart, if the center of the thing is offset from the line or plane of force, then there is a moment arm to rotate the thing to align with the line of plane of force.

AHA!.  Why not have the lead shoulder orbits in a steeper plane with the target line as the base of the plane at the same time have the right elbow orbits in a shallower plane also with the target line as the base of the plane.  In this case the hands and club are confined to the space between these two planes which the space being narrower and narrower as the club is swung towards impact zone!  That explains to me about shallowing of the club and about how the hands shift down from the shoulder level towards the elbow level.

To generate these orbits, the intent is to have the left shoulder traverse downward towards the target line and then upward away from the target line.  Same intent is for the right elbow.  If I could execute as intent, I should have a very stable and powerful swing!

I could not wait and try it out in my backyard net.  First swing, .... shanked it, darned.  Subsequent swings, got better and better.  It works!  Yeah, I have decoded a great golf swing.......

I hope it is not just another WOOD.

Thanks for reading.
Cheers.

Edited by Silky, 03 June 2018 - 12:56 AM.


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