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Iron Stopping Power


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#1 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:50 AM

I've never really had this issue before, but after some swing changes over the winter I now seem to be having issues getting my irons to stop on greens now that the courses here in the UK have firmed up quite a bit.  

Below are some numbers from my most recent launch monitor session.  For reference club used is MP-25 8-iron @ 38* loft (clean grooves) and my standard Z-Stars. I don't personally see much out of the ordinary with the numbers except for the low spin rates that dip below 6,000rpm on some shots.  I'd boil it down to the effect of hitting off a mat (fiberbuilt, which is better than most re:spin but can still have a bit of an effect) except that the story here is being corroborated by my on-course experience recently with a large number of balls running through greens onto the back fringe or rough.  Unfortunately I only have ball data and no club data, so I can't be certain what in the impact dynamics is leading to the low spin rate.

image001.jpg

Any thoughts on what might be causing the issue or anything I should be doing to spin the ball a bit more?  All feedback appreciated!

Edited by GMR, 15 May 2018 - 09:52 AM.


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#2 ferrispgm

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:19 AM

what shaft are you using?
Driver: Callaway Epic 9* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD M9003
FWY:  Taylormade Rocketballz Tp 14.5*
Hybrid:  Adams Idea Pro 18*
Irons: Srixon Z765 3-5 iron, z965 6-PW, Project X
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#3 Yrrdead

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:24 AM

Your descent angle + height + spin look fine to me.  Maybe just take one less club?
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#4 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:32 AM

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

what shaft are you using?
PX LZ 6.5

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#5 jmiller2

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:46 AM

If you are hitting off a mat your AoA may shallow out subconsciously.
~ Shot A - If your AoA is typically -4.0* and a dynamic loft of 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-4.0) = 28 + 4 = 32*.
~ Shot B - If you AoA shallows and is only -1.0* and a dynamic loft is still 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-1.0) = 28 + 1 = 29*.
>> Shot B (29* spin loft) would result in less spin then Shot A (32* spin loft).

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#6 ferrispgm

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:54 AM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

what shaft are you using?
PX LZ 6.5

That could be the issue...if I'm not mistaken, they are a pretty low spin iron shaft.  May need something with a touch more spin or something that fits you better  for more consistent numbers.  Maybe you aren't loading the shaft consistently enough?  Were you fit for the LZ's?
Driver: Callaway Epic 9* w/ Graphite Design Tour AD M9003
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#7 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:38 PM

View Postjmiller2, on 15 May 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

If you are hitting off a mat your AoA may shallow out subconsciously.
~ Shot A - If your AoA is typically -4.0* and a dynamic loft of 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-4.0) = 28 + 4 = 32*.
~ Shot B - If you AoA shallows and is only -1.0* and a dynamic loft is still 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-1.0) = 28 + 1 = 29*.
>> Shot B (29* spin loft) would result in less spin then Shot A (32* spin loft).
True but I don't think it's the mat, since like I said it's the same on the course. I've really been looking to shallow out since I've been longtime steep, but maybe I've overdone it?

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#8 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 12:47 PM

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

what shaft are you using?
PX LZ 6.5

That could be the issue...if I'm not mistaken, they are a pretty low spin iron shaft.  May need something with a touch more spin or something that fits you better  for more consistent numbers.  Maybe you aren't loading the shaft consistently enough?  Were you fit for the LZ's?
I was fit into them yes, but before the changes. I used to play a really low ball, and I'm now hitting it much higher (relative to before it feels like moonballs).  Forgot to mention the 6.5s are 1x hard-stepped...so pretty rigid. I was fit into them because my dispersion really came down as the stiffness went up even if I lost a few yards carry and a bit of spin, and the LZs have a soft midsection so I can still feel them load and release... but like I said before the swing changes I still wasn't having any trouble holding greens.  It must be as the previous posted pointed out that I've shallowed a ton and reduced spin loft, thus the high flat launch and higher ballspeeds.  Maybe I'll try dropping the ball back in my stance a hair to get get a touch steeper and see how that goes.

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#9 AFcelica

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:49 PM

Assuming it's not the mats I would say you're either too shallow or striking the ball too high on the face. Leaning towards the latter

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#10 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Assuming it's not the mats I would say you're either too shallow or striking the ball too high on the face. Leaning towards the latter
Curious how one hits an 8i off the ground too high on the face without catching it fat (which I'm not)?


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#11 dg_1983

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:36 PM

How much extra spin do you think you need?

Seems an odd problem to have. Number would suggest you know how to hit a ball properly!

Does a pro v give you a touch more spin?
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#12 Fade to Black

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:44 PM

PGA tour average stats for 8i:

Launch: 18.1*
Max Height: 31 yards
Descent angle: 50*

You're right there with your numbers, so no reason you shouldn't be able to stick the ball.

Biggest difference is spin: 6400 vs 8000.

What ball are you using?
Driver: Callaway GBB 9.5* (Project X HZRDUS Black 76g 6.5X)
Hybrid: Taylormade RBZ 19* (Fujikura Speeder TS H9.8)
Irons: Callaway Apex'14 4-PW (DG X100)
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Putter: Odyssey Tank Cruiser #7
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#13 AFcelica

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:55 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Assuming it's not the mats I would say you're either too shallow or striking the ball too high on the face. Leaning towards the latter
Curious how one hits an 8i off the ground too high on the face without catching it fat (which I'm not)?

Shaft lean

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#14 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:01 PM

View PostFade to Black, on 15 May 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

PGA tour average stats for 8i:

Launch: 18.1*
Max Height: 31 yards
Descent angle: 50*

You're right there with your numbers, so no reason you shouldn't be able to stick the ball.

Biggest difference is spin: 6400 vs 8000.

What ball are you using?
Srixon Z-Star

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#15 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:02 PM

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Assuming it's not the mats I would say you're either too shallow or striking the ball too high on the face. Leaning towards the latter
Curious how one hits an 8i off the ground too high on the face without catching it fat (which I'm not)?

Shaft lean
My launch angle seems to indicate I don't have excessive shaft lean though, no?


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#16 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:07 PM

View Postdg_1983, on 15 May 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

How much extra spin do you think you need?

Seems an odd problem to have. Number would suggest you know how to hit a ball properly!

Does a pro v give you a touch more spin?
Maybe I should experiment with some other balls and see if I can get an extra 500rpms out of anything. I've played the ProV in the past but didn't like the feel as much as the Z-Star... What are some other high spin options? Something like the Bridgestone Tour B XS maybe?

Edited by GMR, 15 May 2018 - 04:08 PM.


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#17 AFcelica

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:09 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Assuming it's not the mats I would say you're either too shallow or striking the ball too high on the face. Leaning towards the latter
Curious how one hits an 8i off the ground too high on the face without catching it fat (which I'm not)?

Shaft lean
My launch angle seems to indicate I don't have excessive shaft lean though, no?

Catching it high on the face will increase launch angle as well as reduce spin

Edited by AFcelica, 15 May 2018 - 04:13 PM.


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#18 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:12 PM

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Catching it high on the face will increase launch angle as well as reduce spin
Good point. Next time I have a chance I'll take a look at a FO video to see if that'd an issue. I generally avoid video though and it always leaves me feeling like I need to change 1,000 things about my swing hahah

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#19 AFcelica

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:14 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

View PostAFcelica, on 15 May 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Catching it high on the face will increase launch angle as well as reduce spin
Good point. Next time I have a chance I'll take a look at a FO video to see if that'd an issue. I generally avoid video though and it always leaves me feeling like I need to change 1,000 things about my swing hahah

Hard to say anything definitively without club numbers, for all I know you could be way out ahead of it with your body but have the shaft vertical at impact, or you could have too much lean and catch it a groove or 2 high or any number of other possibilities

Edit yeah video could prove helpful. I have the same issues, the better my swing looks the worse the result seems to be

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#20 Yrrdead

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:13 PM

I mean you are hitting off a mat getting these numbers w/ I'm assuming a GC2.

I can change my spin 1000+ rpms just by changing balls. So with your actual numbers I would just play around with different balls. In addition indoor spin numbers can be deceptive (which you know) compared to actual real golf.

Seriously though I can hit a Taylormade tour preferred w/ 6600 spin then swap to a Cut Blue and get 7600.

My setup is similar ie GC2 w Fiberbuilt.

Edit -- My point which i forgot was look for a higher spinning ball first before touching a swing that is producing the other numbers :)

Edited by Yrrdead, 15 May 2018 - 05:14 PM.

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#21 GMR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:49 PM

View PostYrrdead, on 15 May 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

I mean you are hitting off a mat getting these numbers w/ I'm assuming a GC2.

I can change my spin 1000+ rpms just by changing balls. So with your actual numbers I would just play around with different balls. In addition indoor spin numbers can be deceptive (which you know) compared to actual real golf.

Seriously though I can hit a Taylormade tour preferred w/ 6600 spin then swap to a Cut Blue and get 7600.

My setup is similar ie GC2 w Fiberbuilt.

Edit -- My point which i forgot was look for a higher spinning ball first before touching a swing that is producing the other numbers :)
Thanks. Any recommendations for something that will spin more than the Z-Star?

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#22 Yrrdead

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:04 PM

Like most of us I probably have most current top tier balls laying around. After work tomorrow I'll hit them all with an 8 iron and let you know.
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#23 sleezyt

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 05:34 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postferrispgm, on 15 May 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

what shaft are you using?
PX LZ 6.5

That could be the issue...if I'm not mistaken, they are a pretty low spin iron shaft.  May need something with a touch more spin or something that fits you better  for more consistent numbers.  Maybe you aren't loading the shaft consistently enough?  Were you fit for the LZ's?
I was fit into them yes, but before the changes. I used to play a really low ball, and I'm now hitting it much higher (relative to before it feels like moonballs).  Forgot to mention the 6.5s are 1x hard-stepped...so pretty rigid. I was fit into them because my dispersion really came down as the stiffness went up even if I lost a few yards carry and a bit of spin, and the LZs have a soft midsection so I can still feel them load and release... but like I said before the swing changes I still wasn't having any trouble holding greens.  It must be as the previous posted pointed out that I've shallowed a ton and reduced spin loft, thus the high flat launch and higher ballspeeds.  Maybe I'll try dropping the ball back in my stance a hair to get get a touch steeper and see how that goes.
I always needed x100s and have also made a swing change where i shallow out now and experience the same issue: looking at modus.

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#24 Yrrdead

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:08 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

View PostYrrdead, on 15 May 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

I mean you are hitting off a mat getting these numbers w/ I'm assuming a GC2.

I can change my spin 1000+ rpms just by changing balls. So with your actual numbers I would just play around with different balls. In addition indoor spin numbers can be deceptive (which you know) compared to actual real golf.

Seriously though I can hit a Taylormade tour preferred w/ 6600 spin then swap to a Cut Blue and get 7600.

My setup is similar ie GC2 w Fiberbuilt.

Edit -- My point which i forgot was look for a higher spinning ball first before touching a swing that is producing the other numbers :)
Thanks. Any recommendations for something that will spin more than the Z-Star?

Hit some balls on my setup , my numbers are similar to yours though I would say you launch a little higher on average and your ball speed is a bit faster(1mph)  w/ a Z star. Though I would say you are a better ballstriker but my best shots are about with yours (it just takes me longer to get them).

The only balls I found that were consistently spinning more than a Z-Star (121 // 18.5* // 6900 ) were Chromesoft (125!!// 20* // 7200rpm) and Pro V1(122 // 19*// 7500), then two lower tier balls that were higher spin were the Taylormade Project A (122// 19.8* //  7700) and the Cut Blue (119 // 19* // 8000).

Don't ask me about the chromesoft ball speed I have no idea why but I was consistently hitting it out of the middle instead of slightly towards the toe as per usual. Chalk it up to Truvis?
Epic SZ (-1,N)
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#25 GMR

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:45 PM

That's interesting thanks for that little experiment. Can I ask what other balls you tested that were lower spin? The difference with the ProV vs the Z-Star in your testing is more than I would have thought...maybe it's time to give them another chance. You didn't test the bridgestone b330s or tourbxs did you? That's another one I am considering.


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#26 Yrrdead

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 07:11 AM

No, didn't test any Bridgestone balls, I give those to my buddy. The lower spin balls were; lethal, tour preferred , tp5, tp5x, prov1x, and ksig.

Edit- I meant to ask before, how long have you had your fiberbuilt? I only mention it because I feel like I hit shots on course thin more often since I started using mine. And as you know strike has a bigger effect on spin than equipment.

Edited by Yrrdead, 17 May 2018 - 07:15 AM.

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#27 GMR

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:51 AM

View PostYrrdead, on 17 May 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

No, didn't test any Bridgestone balls, I give those to my buddy. The lower spin balls were; lethal, tour preferred , tp5, tp5x, prov1x, and ksig.

Edit- I meant to ask before, how long have you had your fiberbuilt? I only mention it because I feel like I hit shots on course thin more often since I started using mine. And as you know strike has a bigger effect on spin than equipment.
Had it a while. Thin has always been my miss as well (since forever... well before any mat), but doesn't really explain the effects as I seem to be having the same issue no matter how I hit the ball. The shots from the data above were definitely not thin, of that I am certain.

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#28 crapula

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 12:31 PM

What do you get with the ZStar XV?
Srixon Z 785 9.5 Project X HZRDUS Yellow HC 65
Srixon Z F85 13.5 Project X HZRDUS Yellow HC 65
Srixon Z 965 3-PW DG Tour
Cleveland RTX-3 50, 54, 58 DG Tour
Cleveland Elevado
Srixon Yellow ZStar XV

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#29 jmiller2

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:08 PM

View PostGMR, on 15 May 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postjmiller2, on 15 May 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

If you are hitting off a mat your AoA may shallow out subconsciously.
~ Shot A - If your AoA is typically -4.0* and a dynamic loft of 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-4.0) = 28 + 4 = 32*.
~ Shot B - If you AoA shallows and is only -1.0* and a dynamic loft is still 28* your spin loft would be 28 - (-1.0) = 28 + 1 = 29*.
>> Shot B (29* spin loft) would result in less spin then Shot A (32* spin loft).
True but I don't think it's the mat, since like I said it's the same on the course. I've really been looking to shallow out since I've been longtime steep, but maybe I've overdone it?

Spin loft doesn't take into account the surface the ball is being hit from. If you are making a decision to shallow out you AoA changing from being a digger (steep AoA) to a picker (shallow AoA) then you should be aware if dynamic loft stays the same on both styles of shots, then the shallow AoA will spin less then a steeper AoA all else being equal. The only time you can go "too shallow" is when an iron gets to zero or into positive AoA instead of a negative AoA.

Trackman uses total backspin and spin tilt to indicate curve. However, some launch monitors use two numbers for backspin split (backspin / sidespin) to indicate the amount of curve. For those launch monitors that provide two different spin numbers, you have to add the backspin and sidespin together the get the total spin on the ball, here is the math on all your shots for total spin.
~ 5966 + 1121 = 7087
~ 6185 + 710 = 6895
~ 5939 + 854 = 6793
~ 7012 + 100 = 7112
~ 6408 + 183 = 6591
~ 6308 + 815 = 7123
~ 6937 + 1292 = 8229
~ 5960 + 944 = 6904
~ 7652 + 109 = 7761
~ 6310 + 542 = 6852

Looking into the above calculated total spin numbers.
~ Your total spin range is between roughly 6600 and 8200 w/ an average of roughly 7135.
~ Your decent angle is 50-51* with an average 50.4* which is going to stop on soft to medium green firmness even with 6800-7300 spin.

There is one situation where you could use additional spin in my mind.
~ You are playing on firm, fast multiple tier greens where you need to fly the ball to a tier and stop it extremely quickly.

Edited by jmiller2, 30 May 2018 - 10:59 AM.

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