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Buggy runs over ball in rough


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#1 ruca

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:20 PM

Ryder cup style event
4 ball, but playing 2 separate singles matches. I'm sharing a buggy with my teammate.
I hit a shot into rough, my teammate is driving the Buggy, and inadvertently drives over the ball in the rough, so it's embedded. Is he an outside agency, or do I get a penalty.
Tx


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#2 SNIPERBBB

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:29 PM

Was this during the search? Or after the position of the ball was known?
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#3 ruca

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 12:31 PM

During the search

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#4 Shades234

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:19 PM

Since you’re partners and you weren’t looking in a hazard (just driving through the rough), I believe you would incur a 1 stroke penalty under rule 18-2 for moving your ball. You’d have to replace your ball in as identical a lie as possible to the original within one club length.
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#5 Newby

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:25 PM

 ruca, on 14 May 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ryder cup style event
4 ball, but playing 2 separate singles matches. I'm sharing a buggy with my teammate.
I hit a shot into rough, my teammate is driving the Buggy, and inadvertently drives over the ball in the rough, so it's embedded. Is he an outside agency, or do I get a penalty.
Tx
As it would seem that you are are not playing with your team mate then he is an outside agency. As he is driving, the buggy is is deemed to be his.
No penalty to anyone and the ball must be replaced in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard

Edited by Newby, 14 May 2018 - 01:30 PM.


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#6 NDS55

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:41 PM

 Newby, on 14 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

 ruca, on 14 May 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ryder cup style event
4 ball, but playing 2 separate singles matches. I'm sharing a buggy with my teammate.
I hit a shot into rough, my teammate is driving the Buggy, and inadvertently drives over the ball in the rough, so it's embedded. Is he an outside agency, or do I get a penalty.
Tx
As it would seem that you are are not playing with your team mate then he is an outside agency. As he is driving, the buggy is is deemed to be his.
No penalty to anyone and the ball must be replaced in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard

If the OP's clubs are stored and being transported in the cart, I think that it would be considered to be his equipment whether he is behind the wheel or not. I think that this situation has been discussed before.

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#7 Newby

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 02:43 PM

 NDS55, on 14 May 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

 Newby, on 14 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

 ruca, on 14 May 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ryder cup style event
4 ball, but playing 2 separate singles matches. I'm sharing a buggy with my teammate.
I hit a shot into rough, my teammate is driving the Buggy, and inadvertently drives over the ball in the rough, so it's embedded. Is he an outside agency, or do I get a penalty.
Tx
As it would seem that you are are not playing with your team mate then he is an outside agency. As he is driving, the buggy is is deemed to be his.
No penalty to anyone and the ball must be replaced in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard

If the OP's clubs are stored and being transported in the cart, I think that it would be considered to be his equipment whether he is behind the wheel or not. I think that this situation has been discussed before.

18/8 Ball Moved by Golf Cart Shared by Two Players

Under the Definition of "Equipment," equipment includes a golf cart, whether or not motorized. If two or more players share a golf cart, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of one of the players sharing the cart. If the cart is being moved by one of the players (or the partner of one of the players) sharing it, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be that player's equipment. Otherwise, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of the player sharing the cart whose ball (or whose partner's ball) is involved.

Thus, for example, in a singles match, if A and B are sharing a cart and the cart moves A's ball which was at rest, A would be penalized one stroke if he was driving or pulling the cart (Rule 18-2). B would be penalized one stroke if he was driving or pulling the cart (Rule 18-3b), unless the incident occurred during search (Rule 18-3a).

Edited by Newby, 14 May 2018 - 02:44 PM.


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#8 Under2hours

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....

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#9 sui generis

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:22 PM

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....

We could then rename it "careless golf." :swoon:
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#10 Swisstrader98

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:59 PM

2 stroke penalty for baby buggy on course


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#11 ruca

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:59 PM

 Newby, on 14 May 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

 NDS55, on 14 May 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

 Newby, on 14 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

 ruca, on 14 May 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ryder cup style event
4 ball, but playing 2 separate singles matches. I'm sharing a buggy with my teammate.
I hit a shot into rough, my teammate is driving the Buggy, and inadvertently drives over the ball in the rough, so it's embedded. Is he an outside agency, or do I get a penalty.
Tx
As it would seem that you are are not playing with your team mate then he is an outside agency. As he is driving, the buggy is is deemed to be his.
No penalty to anyone and the ball must be replaced in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard

If the OP's clubs are stored and being transported in the cart, I think that it would be considered to be his equipment whether he is behind the wheel or not. I think that this situation has been discussed before.

18/8 Ball Moved by Golf Cart Shared by Two Players

Under the Definition of "Equipment," equipment includes a golf cart, whether or not motorized. If two or more players share a golf cart, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of one of the players sharing the cart. If the cart is being moved by one of the players (or the partner of one of the players) sharing it, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be that player's equipment. Otherwise, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of the player sharing the cart whose ball (or whose partner's ball) is involved.

Thus, for example, in a singles match, if A and B are sharing a cart and the cart moves A's ball which was at rest, A would be penalized one stroke if he was driving or pulling the cart (Rule 18-2). B would be penalized one stroke if he was driving or pulling the cart (Rule 18-3b), unless the incident occurred during search (Rule 18-3a).
Tx this is what I suspected, but had trouble at the time convincing the other team that my teammate was not my partner.

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#12 Sawgrass

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 06:01 PM

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....
Again what uneducated players .......

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#13 Newby

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:49 AM

 ruca, on 14 May 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

Tx this is what I suspected, but had trouble at the time convincing the other team that my teammate was not my partner.

Did you show them the definition of partner in the little book that you always carry in your bag?

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#14 Stuart G.

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM

 sui generis, on 14 May 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....

We could then rename it "careless golf." :swoon:

 Sawgrass, on 14 May 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....
Again what uneducated players .......

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.

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#15 Under2hours

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:37 AM

 Stuart G., on 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 May 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....

We could then rename it "careless golf." :swoon:

 Sawgrass, on 14 May 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....
Again what uneducated players .......

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.
Again tell me why the rule makes any sense.  He wasn't driving & it was an accident.  I take it the same resulting penalty if his playing partner stepped on it by accident helping in a search too?

And again explain how Tiger has bent the rules and gotten the benefit of the doubt in tournaments (i.e. shot into the dining room & having 20 people remove a boulder)?

Common sense should be the rules played by.....


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#16 Sawgrass

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:16 AM

 Under2hours, on 15 May 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

 Stuart G., on 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

 sui generis, on 14 May 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:



We could then rename it "careless golf." :swoon:

 Sawgrass, on 14 May 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

 Under2hours, on 14 May 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Again what stupid rules.......  Lift and drop, no penalty is the simple answer, but this is golf so let's complicate matters.....
Again what uneducated players .......

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.
Again tell me why the rule makes any sense.  He wasn't driving & it was an accident.  I take it the same resulting penalty if his playing partner stepped on it by accident helping in a search too?

And again explain how Tiger has bent the rules and gotten the benefit of the doubt in tournaments (i.e. shot into the dining room & having 20 people remove a boulder)?

Common sense should be the rules played by.....
Of course the Rules make sense.  But Stuart doesn't want me to tell you why!

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#17 Vindog

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:04 AM

 Stuart G., on 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.

He's arguing a point that isn't there. It's like he can't even read.

It's mind boggling.

Edited by Vindog, 15 May 2018 - 06:06 AM.

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#18 sui generis

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:15 AM

Common sense should be the rules played by.....

"Common sense" is the absolute worst process to govern golf, or any thing of importance, for that matter.

It's just another heuristic approach to problem solving and only achieves optimum results by accident. It's usually employed by those without the capacity or necessity to seek a sound outcome.
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#19 Stuart G.

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 06:53 AM

 Vindog, on 15 May 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

He's arguing a point that isn't there.

You can't even really call it an argument - that would imply some actual substance to the post (no matter how valid or not it might be).

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#20 Under2hours

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:09 AM

 Vindog, on 15 May 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

 Stuart G., on 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.

He's arguing a point that isn't there. It's like he can't even read.

It's mind boggling.

 Vindog, on 15 May 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:

 Stuart G., on 15 May 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

Why do you guys even bother wasting any time and effort on that troll?  You should know better by now.

He's arguing a point that isn't there. It's like he can't even read.

It's mind boggling.

Yes I read it and confusing (with 2-3 posts with different interpretations).  The point is that it was an accident while conducting a search and the ball should be replaced.  Is that not the right thing to do?

Talk about anal......


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#21 Newby

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 11:19 AM

View PostUnder2hours, on 15 May 2018 - 04:37 AM, said:

Again tell me why the rule makes any sense.  He wasn't driving & it was an accident.  I take it the same resulting penalty if his playing partner stepped on it by accident helping in a search too?


What resulting penalty?

There isn't a penalty in the original case and there isn't a penalty if his fellow competitor stepped on it by accident. In both cases the ball must be replaced.

Does that make (common) sense?

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#22 ruca

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:08 PM

View PostNewby, on 15 May 2018 - 01:49 AM, said:

View Postruca, on 14 May 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

Tx this is what I suspected, but had trouble at the time convincing the other team that my teammate was not my partner.

Did you show them the definition of partner in the little book that you always carry in your bag?

I have the decisions app on my phone but battery had run out!
Anyway finding what you want from either app or rules book is not as easy as you think in the heat of the moment when I'm not as familiar with the rules, or where to find them even if I know as some of you

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#23 Newby

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:53 AM

Pretty easy this one. Ball at rest moved - in the index

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#24 ruca

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:00 AM

View PostNewby, on 16 May 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Pretty easy this one. Ball at rest moved - in the index
The issue in this case was my status as sharing the cart and my teammate's status driving the cart.
As you correctly pointed out above, this is addressed in Dec 18/8, but isn't in the rule book

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#25 Stuart G.

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:20 AM

View Postruca, on 16 May 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

The issue in this case was my status as sharing the cart and my teammate's status driving the cart.
As you correctly pointed out above, this is addressed in Dec 18/8, but isn't in the rule book

It's clarified in the decision (and decisions are part of the rules) but the full status of the cart is in the definitions.  In fact the decision is largely just repeating what's in the definition.

Edited by Stuart G., 16 May 2018 - 08:21 AM.


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#26 Newby

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:02 AM

View Postruca, on 16 May 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

View PostNewby, on 16 May 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Pretty easy this one. Ball at rest moved - in the index
The issue in this case was my status as sharing the cart and my teammate's status driving the cart.
As you correctly pointed out above, this is addressed in Dec 18/8, but isn't in the rule book
It is. You will have noted that in addition to mentioning the Decision in post #7, I also quoted from the Definitions.

Edited by Newby, 16 May 2018 - 09:04 AM.


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#27 ruca

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:03 PM

Well having read rule 18 again and again, I'm afraid it just isn't that clear to me, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
I presume if it was that clear then decision 18/8 would be completely superfluous, so I'm guessing I'm not the only one...


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#28 rogolf

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:35 PM

View Postruca, on 16 May 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well having read rule 18 again and again, I'm afraid it just isn't that clear to me, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
I presume if it was that clear then decision 18/8 would be completely superfluous, so I'm guessing I'm not the only one...
Newby also referred you to the Definitions, see Note 3 in the Definition of equipment (from the Rule book) below.

Equipment" is anything used, worn, held or carried by the player or the player's caddie, except:
  • any ball that the player has played at the hole being played, and
  • any small object, such as a coin or a tee, when used to mark the position of the ball or the extent of an area in which a ball is to be dropped.

Note 1: A ball played at the hole being played is equipment when it has been lifted and not put back into play.

Note 2: Equipment includes objects placed on the course for the care of the course, such as rakes, while they are being held or carried.

Note 3: When equipment is shared by two or more players, the shared equipment is deemed to be the equipment of only one of the players sharing it.
If a shared golf cart is being moved by one of the players sharing it (or his partner or either of their caddies), the cart and everything in it are deemed to be that player's equipment. Otherwise, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of the player sharing the cart whose ball (or whose partner's ball) is involved.
Other shared equipment is deemed to be the equipment of the player who last used, wore, held or carried it. It remains that player's equipment until it is used, worn, held or carried by the other player (or his partner or either of their caddies).

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#29 Newby

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 04:38 PM

View Postruca, on 16 May 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well having read rule 18 again and again, I'm afraid it just isn't that clear to me, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
I presume if it was that clear then decision 18/8 would be completely superfluous, so I'm guessing I'm not the only one...

It is always worth reading the Definitions first. Apart from the fact that they are at the beginning of the book and easier to find.

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#30 ruca

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 05:54 PM

This is where knowing where stuff is when I don't look at the rule book as often as you guys makes a difference. I looked up cart and buggy in the index and didnt find anything. Tx for pointing it out.


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