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Is Increasing Driving Distance Ruining the Pro Tours?

PGA Tour European Tour PGA Tour Champions Driving distance Drivers

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#2161 The Pearl

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:15 PM

The recreational player doesn't care about Augusta, Oakmont, or Merion in regards to if the membership has to shell out money to refurbish their course to host a major. This is like giving a crap because the owner's of the Golden State Warriors have to pay the luxury tax because they stacked their squad.  The top 2 rated courses in the world don't even host majors or a PGA event.

I will take this concern serious when these courses start refusing to host tournaments..  The Master's isn't even a USGA or PGA event.  They can do what they want. They could make it a 6 club tourney or pick teams and play a scramble.  

This isn't about distance or preserving the great old courses, this is about one thing and one thing only, the USGA, and the elite courses trying to implement cost cutting.  I understand that most golfers love the tour and enjoy the Majors, but as far as I am concerned they can shut the tour down and I could give two turds.  Dustin and Speith can go get teaching jobs at Seminole or go manage a Top Golf. The PGA Tour is an entertainment product with the same cast of characters making zillions of dollars.  The overall value to the world is minimal.

Regardless, I will be out there walking my usual 18 holes tomorrow.

Edited by The Pearl, 12 June 2018 - 10:19 PM.


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#2162 Shilgy

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:33 PM

 The Pearl, on 12 June 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

 Ashley Schaeffer, on 12 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

 clevited, on 12 June 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

 North Texas, on 12 June 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

It had never dawned on me how hard it is to be accurate when a ball is in the air for 8 seconds or so :swoon:
How often do they play 30 yard wide fairways?
Man, I would give anything if I was trying to keep 185 mph ball speed in play :taunt:

I can drive the ball long enough to keep it in the air for almost 8 seconds.  Any slight cross breeze along with any cut or hook you might have intentionally or unintentionally makes hitting a narrow fairway very hard, yet these guys can do that.  30 yards was a guess, anything considered narrow is what I am talking about.  I have seen plenty LAND the ball on the fairway, which to me is driving accuracy, the kick it takes isn't always predictable especially when you hit it so far you can't even pretend to know what the ball will do.

I can get the ball up to 185 on occaision, and I am by no means a great golfer but man, I have gained nothing but a greater appreciation for what those guys can do.  I am scared as heck to try and smash one on a narrow hole, especially with a cross breeze or a hazard.  A small mishit and its in the crap.  I just remember that one drive of DJs over the water (was it US open one year?) in a playoff.  That took balls, and the only reason he attempted it, was the wind changed.

I mean, that's kind of the whole debate in a nutshell.  Some think the modern game doesn't require as much skill and precision.  Others think it takes an extreme amount of precision to hit a 185 mph ball straight.  I don't mean to pivot any discussion, but I've long thought the modern game requires a LOT more skill and precision around the greens rolling at 12.5 with a ProV than it did at 9.5 with a Balata 90.  Anyway, it's adjusted nicely, and golf is in a great place, IMO.

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

Schackelford claims the golden age of golf course architecture was between 1910 and 1937.   If you don't rollback the equipment to this time frame than you are not playing the courses as the designers intended, rather the golf overlords are simply picking an arbitrary time frame out of thin air with a 10 or 20 percent rollback.  You are not achieving the desired goal unless you roll it back to the original time frame.
The RG's of the British Isles, not the ignorant recreational players someone speaks of, would say the golden age of architecture was long before that.
  Many folks get waaaaay to nostalgic for what was. Thus the first courses in the US are the golden age and the first group of real professionals were, are and always will be the best of all time.
  That leaves us with courses that will never be topped. Pine Valley, Augusta, Oakmont come to mind. They have always been atop tThe ratings and it would be sacrilege to suggest something has supplanted them. Jones, Nelson, Hogan and Snead are similar. They were the best of few, same as the early best courses, and to suggest that they are no longer the best to this day is anathema to those that are stuck in the past.
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#2163 Shilgy

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 10:37 PM

 Ashley Schaeffer, on 12 June 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:


Very interesting.  I'd just add that the notion long hitters were "scaled correctly" back in the day is supremely misguided.  Long hitters have always made minced meat of layouts.  There are just more long hitters today, and people are losing their minds over it.
Snead talked of driving OVER the trees on 13 at Augusta and cutting the corner. If a player today did the same heads would explode as the RG's would sputter that was not how the hole should be played. So they add unnecessary tees and spend unnecessary funds to stem the tide of an imaginary foe.
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#2164 bigred90gt

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:25 AM

 geesecougar2, on 12 June 2018 - 06:45 PM, said:

I do believe that a huge piece of this is about conservatism, but whatever.

If race car analogies aren't good, and speed limits, fisheries, hunting seasons aren't good, and baseball isn't good (letís not even mention gun control) then I'm curious about some other sports mentioned. Unfortunately I'm not as familiar so I'm wondering if others know.

Tennis: surely they could make faster balls and more powerful rackets that could create more aces and turn it into a power game? What are tennis' governing bodies policies on this?

Billiards: surely they could make balls and surfaces and cues that would promote crazy cool trick shots in real competition? What are the governing bodies' policies on this?

Both of those things would be cool to watch as a casual, but I'm guessing a real observer of these games would say they go against the ideal aesthetic of the games?

Canít speak to the tennis question, not much bores me more than watching tennis.

For billiards, all of those crazy trick shots you see are played on the same surfaces with the same balls and cues that competitive tournaments are played on. Some people have the skill to pull it off, some donít. Some have the skill but realize they are flashy for show but not conducive to winning tournaments.

Just like golf, some people have the skill to smash the ball and control it, some donít. Some have the ability to smash the ball but realize the risk of it going offline is not conducive to winning tournaments, so they donít do it unless conditions are perfect for it.

Iím still waiting for a single person to give a single example, just one, of how re-writing equipment and testing standards, retooling am I tire industry, performing millions of dollars in R&D, requiring courses to build new tee boxes, requiring people to adjust how they play the game to accommodate this new ball, is easier or a better ďsolutionĒ than simply adjusting a lawn mower. Just one single reason.

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#2165 bigred90gt

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 07:28 AM

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

 Ashley Schaeffer, on 12 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

 clevited, on 12 June 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

 North Texas, on 12 June 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

It had never dawned on me how hard it is to be accurate when a ball is in the air for 8 seconds or so :swoon:
How often do they play 30 yard wide fairways?
Man, I would give anything if I was trying to keep 185 mph ball speed in play :taunt:

I can drive the ball long enough to keep it in the air for almost 8 seconds.  Any slight cross breeze along with any cut or hook you might have intentionally or unintentionally makes hitting a narrow fairway very hard, yet these guys can do that.  30 yards was a guess, anything considered narrow is what I am talking about.  I have seen plenty LAND the ball on the fairway, which to me is driving accuracy, the kick it takes isn't always predictable especially when you hit it so far you can't even pretend to know what the ball will do.

I can get the ball up to 185 on occaision, and I am by no means a great golfer but man, I have gained nothing but a greater appreciation for what those guys can do.  I am scared as heck to try and smash one on a narrow hole, especially with a cross breeze or a hazard.  A small mishit and its in the crap.  I just remember that one drive of DJs over the water (was it US open one year?) in a playoff.  That took balls, and the only reason he attempted it, was the wind changed.

I mean, that's kind of the whole debate in a nutshell.  Some think the modern game doesn't require as much skill and precision.  Others think it takes an extreme amount of precision to hit a 185 mph ball straight.  I don't mean to pivot any discussion, but I've long thought the modern game requires a LOT more skill and precision around the greens rolling at 12.5 with a ProV than it did at 9.5 with a Balata 90.  Anyway, it's adjusted nicely, and golf is in a great place, IMO.

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not ďskilledĒ play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting todayís highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

While at the same time, ensuring that the remainder of the golf world no longer fits the thousands upon thousands of golf courses they play. Brilliant.


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#2166 MrJones

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

Edited by MrJones, 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM.

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#2167 clevited

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.
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#2168 MrJones

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:20 AM

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Maybe...or it could turn out like Pepsi Clear or the New Coke. People hate it and they change it back.

And...there's also the chance, however small, that people might like it.
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#2169 buckeyefl

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 08:58 AM

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Also what does "accommodate players distance" mean? Everyone plays in the same arena and the lowest score wins.

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#2170 15th Club

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:16 AM

 bigred90gt, on 13 June 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

 Ashley Schaeffer, on 12 June 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

 clevited, on 12 June 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

 North Texas, on 12 June 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

It had never dawned on me how hard it is to be accurate when a ball is in the air for 8 seconds or so :swoon:
How often do they play 30 yard wide fairways?
Man, I would give anything if I was trying to keep 185 mph ball speed in play :taunt:

I can drive the ball long enough to keep it in the air for almost 8 seconds.  Any slight cross breeze along with any cut or hook you might have intentionally or unintentionally makes hitting a narrow fairway very hard, yet these guys can do that.  30 yards was a guess, anything considered narrow is what I am talking about.  I have seen plenty LAND the ball on the fairway, which to me is driving accuracy, the kick it takes isn't always predictable especially when you hit it so far you can't even pretend to know what the ball will do.

I can get the ball up to 185 on occaision, and I am by no means a great golfer but man, I have gained nothing but a greater appreciation for what those guys can do.  I am scared as heck to try and smash one on a narrow hole, especially with a cross breeze or a hazard.  A small mishit and its in the crap.  I just remember that one drive of DJs over the water (was it US open one year?) in a playoff.  That took balls, and the only reason he attempted it, was the wind changed.

I mean, that's kind of the whole debate in a nutshell.  Some think the modern game doesn't require as much skill and precision.  Others think it takes an extreme amount of precision to hit a 185 mph ball straight.  I don't mean to pivot any discussion, but I've long thought the modern game requires a LOT more skill and precision around the greens rolling at 12.5 with a ProV than it did at 9.5 with a Balata 90.  Anyway, it's adjusted nicely, and golf is in a great place, IMO.

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

While at the same time, ensuring that the remainder of the golf world no longer fits the thousands upon thousands of golf courses they play. Brilliant.

You are saying that "thousands upon thousands" of golf courses would be unplayable after a ball rollback?  I can't think of a single golf course -- good, bad or indifferent in quality and history -- that cannot be played from forward tees at around 6000 or fewer yards.


Modern courses in particular are routinely fitted with multiple teeing grounds.  Its actually a bit unsightly to me; newly-constructed TPC and resort courses with 6 or 8 tees.  But there they are.


No sir; I don't accept any argument that a ball rollback would present architectural problems in terms of golf course length (being too long).  On the other hand, nearly every golf course that we can think of, very much up to and including almost every course on which major championships are played, has encountered sometimes major problems with trying to find locations for lengthened tees, or other ways to create difficulty where extra length cannot by found.


Edited by 15th Club, 13 June 2018 - 09:20 AM.


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#2171 BrockPSU

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:22 AM

I am pretty sure David Duval even said that protecting par should not be a concern for the usga, no matter what, whoever has the lowest score at the end of the day wins regardless of how he or she got there. It doesn't matter if you win at +6 or -30. A win is a win and going on about how the golf ball needs rolled back should not be an issue on their radar.

One issue that sticks out to me, is finding ways to promote their game to a younger audience to carry on the game of golf. And in rural areas they are failing miserably at it. Debating on taking times back would only push away that audience. But here we are talking about a golf ball going back in time to appease an older generation that cant learn that your time is over. Sorry for being that way but that's the way I see it, I see it way to often at my home course and I know in 20 years that no matter what they do to the course or the game of golf, if you don't market to a younger audience your game will die.
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#2172 MrJones

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:25 AM

 buckeyefl, on 13 June 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Also what does "accommodate players distance" mean? Everyone plays in the same arena and the lowest score wins.
That was a subtle jab at these "older courses" which apparently are being DESTROYED by the freakish distance gains seen with these super straight, easy to hit, self flying golf balls. ;)



Anyhow I'd be OK with a short course trying a shorter ball for their particular tournament.
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#2173 15th Club

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 09:27 AM

 buckeyefl, on 13 June 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Also what does "accommodate players distance" mean? Everyone plays in the same arena and the lowest score wins.

You are welcome to cling to that simplistic notion if you want to; that the qualitative nature of the play on whatever course hosts a championship doesn't matter.  And all that matters is that all the players play the same course and the guy with the lowest score wins.

If that were true, it really wouldn't matter, where we staged national championships in golf.  We could hold them on any golf course and in fact the best ones would be courses that were stadium-type golf courses with plenty of parking and amenities.

I have no doubt, that some people might agree with you.  And that some people don't understand why a major championship would be held in a traffic-choked area like Southampton.  Or on an ancient golf course like The Old Course.

Truly, you are welcome to your personal opinion on that.

I assure you, however; the USGA and the R&A don't think like that.  If that is part of your basis for opposing a ball rollback (that the historic courses don't matter), I hope and expect that you will be disappointed by the ruling bodies in the future.

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#2174 clevited

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:56 AM

https://www.golfdige...ly-not-the-case

I would like to think we are partly responsible for Mike Davis addressing things in this manner.  Here is hoping the truth reveals itself to the USGA and they do nothing about nothing, except maybe tell courses to STOP MAKING THEM LONGER!!!!
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#2175 buckeyefl

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:09 AM

  "You are saying that "thousands upon thousands" of golf courses would be unplayable after a ball rollback?  I can't think of a single golf course -- good, bad or indifferent in quality and history -- that cannot be played from forward tees at around 6000 or fewer yards.


Modern courses in particular are routinely fitted with multiple teeing grounds.  Its actually a bit unsightly to me; newly-constructed TPC and resort courses with 6 or 8 tees.  But there they are.


No sir; I don't accept any argument that a ball rollback would present architectural problems in terms of golf course length (being too long).  On the other hand, nearly every golf course that we can think of, very much up to and including almost every course on which major championships are played, has encountered sometimes major problems with trying to find locations for lengthened tees, or other ways to create difficulty where extra length cannot by found."  


I was going to ask you to edit your post so it sticks out so that anyone wanting to engage you knows what they are up against but I figured I would just go ahead and do it myself as a PSA.


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#2176 buckeyefl

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:28 AM

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

https://www.golfdige...ly-not-the-case

I would like to think we are partly responsible for Mike Davis addressing things in this manner.  Here is hoping the truth reveals itself to the USGA and they do nothing about nothing, except maybe tell courses to STOP MAKING THEM LONGER!!!!

Absolutely nothing in there does anything but mak it appear even more inevitable that they will do something stupid. That stinks of politicia/ lawyer speak.

“The notion that we’re going to be rolling the ball back next year is simply not the case.”

...is expected to take place over the next year and a half, a period which Davis said the USGA will “go quiet” on the topic.

So he can say he didn't lie and say absolutely nothing on the topic. Its typical CYA.


The study, which will initially involve 21 industry stakeholders (architects, superintendents, golf course operators, tour players, and recreational players among them)

The only ones that matter are the ones who fork over the cash daily, thats you and I.


“If you all of a sudden allow a bunch of different bodies to allow their own rules, it would become chaotic,” he said. “There has to be some structure.”

Yes because then he and his pals wouldnt have their cushy jobs and pay.


The current distance debate gained energy this spring when the Distance Report showed driving distance on the PGA Tour, European Tour and Web.com Tour in particular reached record levels.

This one speaks for itself when you look at where and how the data was gathered and used. It means next to nothing but its what they cling on to.

“That’s not the data we need. We need data on what is happening with the 34,000 golf courses around the world. What’s going on with the recreational game and how it’s being played, the time and the cost.”

How its being played and the cost is irrelevant to your organization. That IS NOT your job.


What we’re trying to say to all the stakeholders is ‘Hey, let’s not get ahead of ourselves,’ ” he said. “We’re not at the solution stage yet. What we’re trying to do is not have preconceived outcomes. Until we really know what we’re talking about, until we really know where the pressures in the game are now and where they might be in the future, everybody should embrace the process.

Yes embrace the process until its too late and we do what we want to do in our infinite wisdom.


The Distance Insights project will attempt to inform the distance question with information that dates back to the game’s beginnings in the U.S., and Davis said that data already raises some questions in his mind.

Just a tool to make it more dramatic.

"Oh look at how far the ball goes now compared to 150 years ago." It will make for some beautiful scary charts to back up what he already plans on doing.

If this was just about the elite game, you could solve that very easily,” he said. “And that’s if there is a problem, and I think a lot of people say there’s not a problem. But we believe this issue has gone broadly into the game, and that’s why we’re looking at it broadly because we know golf courses, even the ones that aren’t hosting elite events, have been expanding. Why have they been expanding? Why a hundred years ago were courses all 6,400 yards, most of which don’t even have the elite game being played on them, why did they expand?”

So what? A hundred years ago? Seriously? This stinks of "oh we arent going to jump to conclusions but look at this!!!!"  Hes just showing his hand.

Davis even alluded to the idea that some golf courses today are stretched beyond 7,000 yards perhaps more for marketing and economic reasons, that “if your course is considered a championship course, you can charge more in green fees.”

Again, none of the USGAs concern.

While not addressing those comments directly, Davis said his hope was the debate becomes more informed.

He is one of the few concerned ( and also uninformed since his "alarming data" is so ridiculous and applies to the top.0001% of golfers) because its really a non-issue for Average Joe.


That doesn’t mean we have a solution, and that doesn’t mean we’re going to do something. All we’ve committed to do is this project. That’s all we’re going to do, and some time in the future we’ll address what does this all mean and what are the things we need to do.”

So we arent going to do something until we are going to do something. He really needs to run for office.

Edited by buckeyefl, 13 June 2018 - 11:28 AM.


16

#2177 bigred90gt

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:38 PM

 15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:



You are saying that "thousands upon thousands" of golf courses would be unplayable after a ball rollback?  I can't think of a single golf course -- good, bad or indifferent in quality and history -- that cannot be played from forward tees at around 6000 or fewer yards.


Modern courses in particular are routinely fitted with multiple teeing grounds.  Its actually a bit unsightly to me; newly-constructed TPC and resort courses with 6 or 8 tees.  But there they are.


No sir; I don't accept any argument that a ball rollback would present architectural problems in terms of golf course length (being too long).  On the other hand, nearly every golf course that we can think of, very much up to and including almost every course on which major championships are played, has encountered sometimes major problems with trying to find locations for lengthened tees, or other ways to create difficulty where extra length cannot by found.


Iím not saying they will be unplayable. Iím saying they wonít fit the people that play them. You think courses today donít fit the elite players that play them so you want something done. Iím saying that the courses wouldnít fit the remainder of the world that plays them, and that they fit perfectly fine now, so nothing needs to be done. You have your opinion, I have mine. The difference is my opinion is actually backed up by facts, where yours is simply an opinion on how you wish to see professional and elite amateur golf played. Nothing more.

Yes, courses have multiple tee boxes. My former home course had 4, one I play regularly has 3. One I play regularly is played mostly by seniors who play the most forward set of tees and are currently hitting driver/fairway wood and hopin for the best when it comes to being able to reach the greens, from the most forward set of tees. If the ball is rolled back, there isnít another set of tees for them to move up to. What then? Tough luck? Par is just a number, give it your best and deal with it? That course, I guarantee you, is one of MANY that is in the same predicament. There are a lot of courses that are mostly frequented by older players that are giving it all theyíve got and can probably reach the greens in regulation on between 1/2 - 3/4 of the holes now from the most forward boxes. If you donít think that is happening all over the country, you couldnít be more out of touch with the game if you tried. And if/when the ball is rolled back, those courses (many municipal or smaller privately owned courses without the funds to do major makeovers) will have to build new boxes forward of their current ones or risk losing the majority of their customers and closing the doors. What are your concerns about those courses? None Iím sure, since you sit with such high society and it wonít effect you.

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#2178 Shilgy

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:38 PM

 15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

 buckeyefl, on 13 June 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

 clevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 MrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

 15th Club, on 12 June 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

No, nothing about this debate has anything to do with any notion of what is or is not "skilled" play in golf.  It is ONLY about fitting today's highly skilled golfers, and their equipment, to the great championship golf courses.

I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Also what does "accommodate players distance" mean? Everyone plays in the same arena and the lowest score wins.

You are welcome to cling to that simplistic notion if you want to; that the qualitative nature of the play on whatever course hosts a championship doesn't matter.  And all that matters is that all the players play the same course and the guy with the lowest score wins.

If that were true, it really wouldn't matter, where we staged national championships in golf.  We could hold them on any golf course and in fact the best ones would be courses that were stadium-type golf courses with plenty of parking and amenities.

I have no doubt, that some people might agree with you.  And that some people don't understand why a major championship would be held in a traffic-choked area like Southampton.  Or on an ancient golf course like The Old Course.

Truly, you are welcome to your personal opinion on that.

I assure you, however; the USGA and the R&A don't think like that.  If that is part of your basis for opposing a ball rollback (that the historic courses don't matter), I hope and expect that you will be disappointed by the ruling bodies in the future.
A question for you.....if we do a rollback that you seek............in a hundred years will the majors still be played at the same handful of courses? The Open at the same 7 or 8 courses from the late 1800's?  The US Open at the same dozen courses designed in the 19teens and 20's of the so called golden age of design?  Are we really to be so stuck in the past as to believe that nothing better will ever ever come along?  How are modern courses to ever get recognition if they are always told the old is better?  Yes, it is nice to have some tradition in the game. But it does not necessarily mean that forever we will be told the top 3 courses are Pine Valley-August and Seminole(or whatever the list is) and that the best ten players of all time include Hogan Nelson Snead and Jones Hagen Player Palmer etc.  

Why is golf so stuck in the past? Why are so many of the belief that nothing good has come out of the last 50 years in design and play?
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#2179 15th Club

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 02:15 PM

 bigred90gt, on 13 June 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

 15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:



You are saying that "thousands upon thousands" of golf courses would be unplayable after a ball rollback?  I can't think of a single golf course -- good, bad or indifferent in quality and history -- that cannot be played from forward tees at around 6000 or fewer yards.


Modern courses in particular are routinely fitted with multiple teeing grounds.  Its actually a bit unsightly to me; newly-constructed TPC and resort courses with 6 or 8 tees.  But there they are.


No sir; I don't accept any argument that a ball rollback would present architectural problems in terms of golf course length (being too long).  On the other hand, nearly every golf course that we can think of, very much up to and including almost every course on which major championships are played, has encountered sometimes major problems with trying to find locations for lengthened tees, or other ways to create difficulty where extra length cannot by found.


Iím not saying they will be unplayable. Iím saying they wonít fit the people that play them. You think courses today donít fit the elite players that play them so you want something done. Iím saying that the courses wouldnít fit the remainder of the world that plays them, and that they fit perfectly fine now, so nothing needs to be done. You have your opinion, I have mine. The difference is my opinion is actually backed up by facts, where yours is simply an opinion on how you wish to see professional and elite amateur golf played. Nothing more.

Yes, courses have multiple tee boxes. My former home course had 4, one I play regularly has 3. One I play regularly is played mostly by seniors who play the most forward set of tees and are currently hitting driver/fairway wood and hopin for the best when it comes to being able to reach the greens, from the most forward set of tees. If the ball is rolled back, there isnít another set of tees for them to move up to. What then? Tough luck? Par is just a number, give it your best and deal with it? That course, I guarantee you, is one of MANY that is in the same predicament. There are a lot of courses that are mostly frequented by older players that are giving it all theyíve got and can probably reach the greens in regulation on between 1/2 - 3/4 of the holes now from the most forward boxes. If you donít think that is happening all over the country, you couldnít be more out of touch with the game if you tried. And if/when the ball is rolled back, those courses (many municipal or smaller privately owned courses without the funds to do major makeovers) will have to build new boxes forward of their current ones or risk losing the majority of their customers and closing the doors. What are your concerns about those courses? None Iím sure, since you sit with such high society and it wonít effect you.

Until we see a rollback specification that does what you are fearing/denouncing, I am so thoroughly unconcerned that I am done with this sub-issue.  I wonít waste any more time on it.


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#2180 bigred90gt

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 02:33 PM

 15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

 bigred90gt, on 13 June 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

 15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

You are saying that "thousands upon thousands" of golf courses would be unplayable after a ball rollback?  I can't think of a single golf course -- good, bad or indifferent in quality and history -- that cannot be played from forward tees at around 6000 or fewer yards.


Modern courses in particular are routinely fitted with multiple teeing grounds.  Its actually a bit unsightly to me; newly-constructed TPC and resort courses with 6 or 8 tees.  But there they are.


No sir; I don't accept any argument that a ball rollback would present architectural problems in terms of golf course length (being too long).  On the other hand, nearly every golf course that we can think of, very much up to and including almost every course on which major championships are played, has encountered sometimes major problems with trying to find locations for lengthened tees, or other ways to create difficulty where extra length cannot by found.


I'm not saying they will be unplayable. I'm saying they won't fit the people that play them. You think courses today don't fit the elite players that play them so you want something done. I'm saying that the courses wouldn't fit the remainder of the world that plays them, and that they fit perfectly fine now, so nothing needs to be done. You have your opinion, I have mine. The difference is my opinion is actually backed up by facts, where yours is simply an opinion on how you wish to see professional and elite amateur golf played. Nothing more.

Yes, courses have multiple tee boxes. My former home course had 4, one I play regularly has 3. One I play regularly is played mostly by seniors who play the most forward set of tees and are currently hitting driver/fairway wood and hopin for the best when it comes to being able to reach the greens, from the most forward set of tees. If the ball is rolled back, there isn't another set of tees for them to move up to. What then? Tough luck? Par is just a number, give it your best and deal with it? That course, I guarantee you, is one of MANY that is in the same predicament. There are a lot of courses that are mostly frequented by older players that are giving it all they've got and can probably reach the greens in regulation on between 1/2 - 3/4 of the holes now from the most forward boxes. If you don't think that is happening all over the country, you couldn't be more out of touch with the game if you tried. And if/when the ball is rolled back, those courses (many municipal or smaller privately owned courses without the funds to do major makeovers) will have to build new boxes forward of their current ones or risk losing the majority of their customers and closing the doors. What are your concerns about those courses? None I'm sure, since you sit with such high society and it won't effect you.

Until we see a rollback specification that does what you are fearing/denouncing, I am so thoroughly unconcerned that I am done with this sub-issue.  I won't waste any more time on it.
And until you have even a high school understanding of physics, materials and engineering, I am so thoroughly unconcerned with anything you have to say. You OBVIOUSLY have no grasp of even basic principles of any of the three. Do what you are suggesting to everyone else, and read a book or two about physics and engineering, and read a few material specifications and testing protocols, and then come back to the discussion.


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#2181 BrockPSU

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 09:12 AM

Someone tell the USGA to roll the ball back, scores are to low at the us open. -_-
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#2182 KCCO

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:35 PM

Ironically, this novel has dropped 4 pages on my new content....guess the course hosting U.S open has no historical value to 15th, or it just lacks class so we will wait until next week...cheers (sarcasm, donít get your feelings hurt)

Edited by KCCO, 15 June 2018 - 07:38 PM.

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#2183 gvogel

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 08:50 AM

View PostShilgy, on 13 June 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 13 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

View Postbuckeyefl, on 13 June 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

View Postclevited, on 13 June 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

View PostMrJones, on 13 June 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:



I personally would not be opposed to certain Tournaments calling for all players to use a single reduced distance ball. Make it part of the specific tournament rather than a Tour rule. One or two tournaments a year, that can't accommodate players distances, played this way would be interesting to me.

My concern with that is it will be a gateway into ushering in that ball for everyone.

Also what does "accommodate players distance" mean? Everyone plays in the same arena and the lowest score wins.

You are welcome to cling to that simplistic notion if you want to; that the qualitative nature of the play on whatever course hosts a championship doesn't matter.  And all that matters is that all the players play the same course and the guy with the lowest score wins.

If that were true, it really wouldn't matter, where we staged national championships in golf.  We could hold them on any golf course and in fact the best ones would be courses that were stadium-type golf courses with plenty of parking and amenities.

I have no doubt, that some people might agree with you.  And that some people don't understand why a major championship would be held in a traffic-choked area like Southampton.  Or on an ancient golf course like The Old Course.

Truly, you are welcome to your personal opinion on that.

I assure you, however; the USGA and the R&A don't think like that.  If that is part of your basis for opposing a ball rollback (that the historic courses don't matter), I hope and expect that you will be disappointed by the ruling bodies in the future.
A question for you.....if we do a rollback that you seek............in a hundred years will the majors still be played at the same handful of courses? The Open at the same 7 or 8 courses from the late 1800's?  The US Open at the same dozen courses designed in the 19teens and 20's of the so called golden age of design?  Are we really to be so stuck in the past as to believe that nothing better will ever ever come along?  How are modern courses to ever get recognition if they are always told the old is better?  Yes, it is nice to have some tradition in the game. But it does not necessarily mean that forever we will be told the top 3 courses are Pine Valley-August and Seminole(or whatever the list is) and that the best ten players of all time include Hogan Nelson Snead and Jones Hagen Player Palmer etc.  

Why is golf so stuck in the past? Why are so many of the belief that nothing good has come out of the last 50 years in design and play?

I hope that they continue to hold future US Opens at Shinnecock Hills.  It is fine land for golf; there is a nice movement to the land, playing in the sand dunes.  

But here is something: they lengthened the 5th hole, a par 5, by placing a new championship tee on the other side of the 18th tee.  You certainly wouldn't design a new course that way, but that is the only location open to stretch the hole to maintain it as a par 5.  And even so, the hole is playing the easiest on the course.  Spieth and Mickelson hit fairway woods to the green, and Rory was hitting iron.

I assume that future golfers will be more fit and even longer.  Problem is, they can't make 5 even longer - they have run out of room.  The "Don't take my ProV away from me" crowd says "no problem, make it a par 4."  Or some such silly thing.  But by doing so, you are fundamentally changing the nature of a pretty good game that has tradition and a certain amount of difficulty.  The game is becoming easier.  And guess what?  The champions want the game to be as difficult as possible.

Time to roll back the technology in some way.
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#2184 Terry Gold

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 10:12 AM

This issue is hype-driven by moneyed interests.  

Certain parties have enough market-mantra behind them, despite the empirical tech data regarding balls or club allowances, that have deiced that it's NOW, this point in time, at which the ball/distances have become untenable. Those with a heavily vested interest in building new tracks, for obvious reasons, are full of this fury.

All the hubbub around this debate is political, which is to say economic.

TV and OEMs conspire to drive interest/revenue through disingenuously hyping distance. Every weekend on CBS/NBC, the hype has insidiously seeped into the dialogue around almost every shot.

There really is no compromise that would immediately economically benefit all parties.  

USGA, PGA, OEMs. all want to have their cake and eat it too.

Until all those listed above can devise a strategy where they everyone will profit, not much is going to change.

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#2185 rangersgoalie

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 02:48 PM

GVogel
In no way questioning your post above
IF
There was a roll back and you were the powerful and almighty OZ.
What era of equipment would you like to see be the standard?
I was born in 1962  so grew up with great MacGregor irons and woods.  Played balls that lasted a few holes

I actually did not lo,e the Professional when it was released when I was playing competitive golf, but loved the Maxfli HT from the early/mid 90's

I am personally not too concerned with irons.  They do get in the air easier,,and therefore are much stronger, but I still control m y old Cleveland irons better , and I miss my mac daddy grooves :)

For me, I'm not certain any roll back can be accomplished without serious carnage somewhere, but curious what era some would like to see be the standard


25

#2186 farmer

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 03:33 PM

I'm going to guess late 60's early 70's?  Maybe any year prior to the introduction of a truly playable solid ball, Precept EV Extra Spin?  Although Nick Price had a great run with those cheater balls.  If the ball is rolled back 20%, and the length of courses is not reduced, then a 7400 yard course plays at over 8000.  If that same course is reduced by 5%, to accommodate the shorter balls, it plays to 7000 yards, which might be acceptable to the RB'ers.  The devil in these ideas is that SS might continue to increase, which would eventually negate the rollback.

Edited by farmer, 16 June 2018 - 03:34 PM.


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#2187 BrockPSU

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 04:23 PM

Any remarks about this post after what the usga has done to the us open again, not once but for the last however many years backing up that the usga has any idea what they are doing with this game should really look at the picture. Nobody wants to watch this right now, this is not how you or you should even protect par. Except that players are better now then they were 30 years ago, let them play golf. Rolling the ball back or making the greens like this needs to stop. This isnít even skill itís pot luck.
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#2188 15th Club

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 07:16 PM

How many times in this thread have we heard from GolfWRX members who have been telling me, "Lowest score wins..."?  And decrying any attempt to do what some think of (not always correctly) as "protecting par"...?

So it does not matter what the winning score is, when the leaders are more than 20 under par.  "Lowest score wins."  But when the winner is +1 or +3, it is an outrage.

Got it.

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#2189 farmer

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 07:20 PM

15, would you be in favor of taking Oakland Hills back to 1950 standards?  Fairway cut, green speed, overall condition?  That would be the way the architect intended it to play.

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#2190 15th Club

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 07:31 PM

So 1950; before RTJ?  (They were doing the changes then, in fact.)  More Donald Ross and less RTJ might have some merit.  But I think this whole question is much too complicated for a one-word answer.


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