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Loft jacking... Did I find the worst offender?


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#181 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 02:39 PM

View Postkiwihacker, on 10 May 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

There seems to be 3 schools of thought in this thread.

1. Those that hate loft jacking. I'm in this camp because I don't want a 43 pitching wedge.
2. Those that say "Who cares about the number stamped on the bottom of the club? Why does it matter As long as you know your distances?" This point of view I can accept. If my 27 club is a 5 iron and a modern 27 club is a 6 iron so be it. It's just a matter of getting used to the different lofts and recalibrating distances.
3. The 3rd camp I can't understand at all. This camp is represented by phatchrisrules and pinestreetgolf who imply that jacked lofts help high handicap golfers hit it further whereas with traditional lofts they'd be struggling for distance and coming up short all day? :WTF:  If I need to hit it 160m to the green I'm hitting my 27 5 iron. If instead I'm playing a modern jacked set and I'm hitting a 27 6 or 7 iron how on earth is that any different? How is that helping? You both seem to be implying that a 27 club with 7 stamped on the bottom will be easier for me to hit than a 27 club with 5 stamped on the bottom. Your argument that jacked lofts 'help' doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Anyway, my major problem with jacked lofts, as I've stated previously, is the inconsistent gapping throughout the set as you end up with strong mid and short irons necessitating 5, 6 or even 7 gaps to get to the magic 50 gap wedge.

However as someone has just said. 6 pages? Time to give it a rest? We seem to just be going round in circles.  :deadhorse:

Jacked lofts don’t help. That isn’t what we said at all. The game improvement soles and technology that usually goes with jacked lofts help. If you just bent a titleist MB 6 iron strong it wouldn’t help a new player.

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#182 kiwihacker

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 03:00 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:


Jacked lofts don’t help. That isn’t what we said at all. The game improvement soles and technology that usually goes with jacked lofts help. If you just bent a titleist MB 6 iron strong it wouldn’t help a new player.

So all you guys were saying is that oversize super game improvement irons help, no argument there, and they just happen to come with jacked lofts? Ok, my apologies for misinterpreting your posts. I thought had read multiple times that the jacked lofts helped.
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#183 matchavez

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 03:34 PM

View Postkiwihacker, on 10 May 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

Jacked lofts don’t help. That isn’t what we said at all. The game improvement soles and technology that usually goes with jacked lofts help. If you just bent a titleist MB 6 iron strong it wouldn’t help a new player.

So all you guys were saying is that oversize super game improvement irons help, no argument there, and they just happen to come with jacked lofts? Ok, my apologies for misinterpreting your posts. I thought had read multiple times that the jacked lofts helped.

I think that's the hardest part of this conversation. They do what they're supposed to do, but whether that "helps" or not seems to be a multi-variable consideration that is as hard to agree upon as anything here.

As OP, I'm somewhat conflicted, but I think I've found where my argument rests... I'm not opposed to the loft lowering per se; it's just simply that I find that like anything good, when it's taken to an absurd level it ceases to be good. My thesis is that given the market, likely player, etc., this is "too much help", and the scale tips to detrimental. I honestly care a lot less about the fact that the "8-iron" is 29º. The secondary argument is that calling that an 8 makes it considerably distant from other "8-irons" that have a customary purpose and common attributes to a modest degree. The *primary* concern for me is that by bunching these lofts (22/24/26/29) along with marking them very strong, you provide a player with AWFUL gapping, and an antithetical concept of what irons should do for a player. This will lead to a poor experience, and I think that's to some degree unethical.

The details, as they've eventually been teased out here, are an interesting insight into industry trends. I find it fascinating.

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#184 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 07:44 PM

View Postmatchavez, on 10 May 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postkiwihacker, on 10 May 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

Jacked lofts don’t help. That isn’t what we said at all. The game improvement soles and technology that usually goes with jacked lofts help. If you just bent a titleist MB 6 iron strong it wouldn’t help a new player.

So all you guys were saying is that oversize super game improvement irons help, no argument there, and they just happen to come with jacked lofts? Ok, my apologies for misinterpreting your posts. I thought had read multiple times that the jacked lofts helped.

I think that's the hardest part of this conversation. They do what they're supposed to do, but whether that "helps" or not seems to be a multi-variable consideration that is as hard to agree upon as anything here.

As OP, I'm somewhat conflicted, but I think I've found where my argument rests... I'm not opposed to the loft lowering per se; it's just simply that I find that like anything good, when it's taken to an absurd level it ceases to be good. My thesis is that given the market, likely player, etc., this is "too much help", and the scale tips to detrimental. I honestly care a lot less about the fact that the "8-iron" is 29º. The secondary argument is that calling that an 8 makes it considerably distant from other "8-irons" that have a customary purpose and common attributes to a modest degree. The *primary* concern for me is that by bunching these lofts (22/24/26/29) along with marking them very strong, you provide a player with AWFUL gapping, and an antithetical concept of what irons should do for a player. This will lead to a poor experience, and I think that's to some degree unethical.

The details, as they've eventually been teased out here, are an interesting insight into industry trends. I find it fascinating.

The problem is the gumbo of:

1. feel isn't real
2. the savings realized by the consumer by purchasing mass-produced goods
3. the false positives (and negatives) that equipment can cause - you can just happen to have a great or terrible round while holding anything
4. very few people "gap" in practice rather than theory

So, you have a situation where what your body tells you may or may not be correct, the cheapest stuff needs to work for the most, and golfers are notorious for being talismanic.  If they happen to shoot their best round while holding some XR pros they don't think "eh, clubs are just one variable, i would have shot a great round today with anything" they say nonsense like "these xr pros just work for me".  And all of that adds to the fact that very few golfers gap in practice.  Very few go to an empty course and hit 20 of the actual ball they use with every club to make sure their gaps are good.  you can read it in the posts here.  "i would get the 56*, but worried about my gapping" <- it doesn't matter that they haven't actually hit the club, they know how far it goes.

I honestly believe (And i may get super flamed for this) that the rubber meets the road in events.  Every golfer who is serious should play at least one.  It makes you take casual rounds less serious, and it makes you care about *score*.  Not how cool your clubs look, or how bad a** you are carrying a 2 iron, but how you shoot.  we've all seen guys fly a green into a lake break out into a huge smile and talk about how they "crushed it" and then hit a terrible thin shot that trickles to the fringe and you get a curse instead of a fist-pump.  i didn't start to really care about my score until i started to compete, and as a result i don't carry a 4 iron.  even as a 1 cap i can't hit one well enough to bag it and i bag a 23* burner rescue instead.  my 5 iron is about 195 and my 4 is about 200.  my hybrid is about 210-212.  i know that because i hit them a bunch on the first fairway at TPC Louisiana late in the evening.  not theory gapping.  practice gapping.

its a tough problem, because people don't want to spend the time or cash to really build a scoring bag and its not in the OEM's interest to do it.  So we end up with the car industry - "classes" of clubs that roughly correspond to players (like mini-vans, sportscars, SUVs, etc...).

Its up to the individual golfer to cut through all of these stereotypes and build a bag that can shoot a score.  when it comes to golf clubs, only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 10 May 2018 - 07:46 PM.

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#185 phatchrisrules

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 07:55 PM

View Postkiwihacker, on 10 May 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

Jacked lofts don’t help. That isn’t what we said at all. The game improvement soles and technology that usually goes with jacked lofts help. If you just bent a titleist MB 6 iron strong it wouldn’t help a new player.

So all you guys were saying is that oversize super game improvement irons help, no argument there, and they just happen to come with jacked lofts? Ok, my apologies for misinterpreting your posts. I thought had read multiple times that the jacked lofts helped.

That is basically it. To add onto this, I will repeat it again:

Do you hit the ball with low launch and spin?  Use more traditional lofts (i.e. a 33-35* 7i).
Do you hit the ball high with lots of spin?  Use more aggressive lofts (28-31* 7i).

This is the exact same principle when fitting for a driver, I just don't understand why in irons it gets forgotten about and/or argued against so passionately.

Assuming all things like club shaping and style and whatnot are not included in this, those two points above are literally the only criteria that matter to me in a fitting.  This is of course assuming that middle strikes are happening.  If we want to get into more nuanced discussions about this, then we need to really start pointing our fingers at OEMs not just about "loft-jacking" but more about creating a forgiving iron that still looks good, with traditional lofts.  Honestly, the only iron I would consider "forgiving" with traditional lofts on the market is the Ping i200.  It supposedly has as much forgiveness as the G30 or something but into a smaller club head.  There is honestly nothing else like this on the market that has crazy high MOI, ball speed across the face, and still looks "nice" at address for your better players.  Sure there are other similar ones, like AP2, Srixon Z765, Wilson C300 Forged, and Mizuno MP18 MMC...but when push comes to shove am I going to hand those over to a 15 handicap?  No, because I know they aren't going to work because they are still too demanding.  On the other hand, if I give an i200 to a 15 handicap I know that there is enough help there that they can get away with it if that is the head shape desired.

I said it before and I'll say it again, if someone can make a forgiving, traditional-lofted golf club that still had a pretty jumpy, ball-speed driven face, I'd be all over it.  Nothing like that exists on the market.  Comparatively, even though it is really good, the i200 is still pretty darn slow compared to even the Srixon's at the same loft or AP2s.  However, the AP2s and Srixons are really freaking hard to hit for guys who shoot over 78 on the regular.  There is no "perfect" club out there right now.

Edited by phatchrisrules, 10 May 2018 - 07:56 PM.

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#186 matchavez

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 08:46 PM

Im not sure if I feel better or worse about bagging i200s now! Hahaha

And Pine, you have me feeling guilty about my 4-iron! Granted I swap it out a lot...

I think if nothing else, this has been a conclusive it depends. I still have my opinions, but I also think that maybe it isnt fully out of bounds. With that said, anything having multiple PW is by definition full of poop. And Pine, you are correct in my book when it comes to an event. It is different. Just as it is different when you play Stableford, which I now do a lot. When you have a putt for 1 point, you damn well arent going to be short. Stuff like that... its the mental difference because that long iron isnt for show... it needs to earn its way in the bag.

Enlightened stuff guys.

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#187 Boiler0007

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:17 PM

Soooo. After reading all this, I still don’t know. If hit my 7 iron 150 yards, will I hit the JGR 7 iron 150 yards? :)

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#188 Johnnypenso

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:54 PM

I just wanted to say thank you to @pinestreetgolf and @phatchrisrules for their contributions to this thread.  I believe I've learned more about modern irons and their inherent characteristics in this thread than anywhere else on the net!

Edited by Johnnypenso, 16 May 2018 - 08:54 PM.


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#189 phatchrisrules

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 06:29 AM

View PostBoiler0007, on 16 May 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

Soooo. After reading all this, I still don’t know. If hit my 7 iron 150 yards, will I hit the JGR 7 iron 150 yards? :)

Probably 160.  But who knows, if you are a low ball hitter with low, you might hit it even shorter.
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#190 Snowman9000

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:37 AM

I have been testing some Hot Metals on the course.  Loft for loft, the short irons go farther than my normal irons.  But where I could use the help, the 27 degree iron, the HM isn't really any longer, but maybe a bit higher.  So, meh, I am putting my hot iron quest on the back burner.  As I wrote in a thread somewhere, you only need one of them in your set anyway, right?  The longest iron.  OK, maybe two at the most.

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#191 fillwelix

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 12:37 PM

To everyone in the "Who cares just play what you play" camp, I posted this earlier but it seems to have been lost:

I know a lot of people get really annoyed at these conversations, "just hit what you hit and it doesn't matter what number is on the bottom", but this is really problematic to me. I think a lot of people get into these ____ measuring contests with how far the hit X club, regardless of whether or not they're aware of the loft jacking.

After that, they get a new set that has a 6 iron that's more like a 4 iron, and their swing absolutely does not cooperate with that low loft.

From there, they're not going to get hybrids and start their irons at a 7 or 8 iron, because "I'm a man, what, you think I can't hit a 6 iron???" because they've always been able to hit a 6 iron.

What we end up with is people gaming clubs they absolutely should not, but can't seem to understand that the clubs they have now are not the clubs they had then. If you'd ask someone 20 years ago "should a 60 year old amateur play a 4 iron?" they'd probably say no, if their swing speed wasn't high enough. But we see that more and more just because the same lofted club says "6" on the bottom.

For golfers who have a high enough swing speed, loft jacking is not a problem. They can hit a 4 iron, they can hit a loft-jacked 6 iron. No difference, no harm. Play whatever you want and the number on bottom doesn't matter.

For most amateurs, especially those who are prideful about the days in the past, loft jacking is only hurting the game, and driving people away from something they've done for a long time because they become newly frustrated with the way they play.
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#192 Bad9

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 12:54 PM

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

To everyone in the "Who cares just play what you play" camp, I posted this earlier but it seems to have been lost:

I know a lot of people get really annoyed at these conversations, "just hit what you hit and it doesn't matter what number is on the bottom", but this is really problematic to me. I think a lot of people get into these ____ measuring contests with how far the hit X club, regardless of whether or not they're aware of the loft jacking.

After that, they get a new set that has a 6 iron that's more like a 4 iron, and their swing absolutely does not cooperate with that low loft.

From there, they're not going to get hybrids and start their irons at a 7 or 8 iron, because "I'm a man, what, you think I can't hit a 6 iron???" because they've always been able to hit a 6 iron.

What we end up with is people gaming clubs they absolutely should not, but can't seem to understand that the clubs they have now are not the clubs they had then. If you'd ask someone 20 years ago "should a 60 year old amateur play a 4 iron?" they'd probably say no, if their swing speed wasn't high enough. But we see that more and more just because the same lofted club says "6" on the bottom.

For golfers who have a high enough swing speed, loft jacking is not a problem. They can hit a 4 iron, they can hit a loft-jacked 6 iron. No difference, no harm. Play whatever you want and the number on bottom doesn't matter.

For most amateurs, especially those who are prideful about the days in the past, loft jacking is only hurting the game, and driving people away from something they've done for a long time because they become newly frustrated with the way they play.

How many people do you that have left the game because of jacked iron lofts?
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#193 Cwebb

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 12:58 PM

View PostBad9, on 17 May 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:


How many people do you that have left the game because of jacked iron lofts?

I doubt anyone ever left the game, because the distance gap between the last iron in their set and their next wedge, was too big.  It's not the point though

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#194 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 02:25 PM

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

To everyone in the "Who cares just play what you play" camp, I posted this earlier but it seems to have been lost:

I know a lot of people get really annoyed at these conversations, "just hit what you hit and it doesn't matter what number is on the bottom", but this is really problematic to me. I think a lot of people get into these ____ measuring contests with how far the hit X club, regardless of whether or not they're aware of the loft jacking.

After that, they get a new set that has a 6 iron that's more like a 4 iron, and their swing absolutely does not cooperate with that low loft.

From there, they're not going to get hybrids and start their irons at a 7 or 8 iron, because "I'm a man, what, you think I can't hit a 6 iron???" because they've always been able to hit a 6 iron.

What we end up with is people gaming clubs they absolutely should not, but can't seem to understand that the clubs they have now are not the clubs they had then. If you'd ask someone 20 years ago "should a 60 year old amateur play a 4 iron?" they'd probably say no, if their swing speed wasn't high enough. But we see that more and more just because the same lofted club says "6" on the bottom.

For golfers who have a high enough swing speed, loft jacking is not a problem. They can hit a 4 iron, they can hit a loft-jacked 6 iron. No difference, no harm. Play whatever you want and the number on bottom doesn't matter.

For most amateurs, especially those who are prideful about the days in the past, loft jacking is only hurting the game, and driving people away from something they've done for a long time because they become newly frustrated with the way they play.

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#195 fillwelix

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 02:42 PM

View PostBad9, on 17 May 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

To everyone in the "Who cares just play what you play" camp, I posted this earlier but it seems to have been lost:

I know a lot of people get really annoyed at these conversations, "just hit what you hit and it doesn't matter what number is on the bottom", but this is really problematic to me. I think a lot of people get into these ____ measuring contests with how far the hit X club, regardless of whether or not they're aware of the loft jacking.

After that, they get a new set that has a 6 iron that's more like a 4 iron, and their swing absolutely does not cooperate with that low loft.

From there, they're not going to get hybrids and start their irons at a 7 or 8 iron, because "I'm a man, what, you think I can't hit a 6 iron???" because they've always been able to hit a 6 iron.

What we end up with is people gaming clubs they absolutely should not, but can't seem to understand that the clubs they have now are not the clubs they had then. If you'd ask someone 20 years ago "should a 60 year old amateur play a 4 iron?" they'd probably say no, if their swing speed wasn't high enough. But we see that more and more just because the same lofted club says "6" on the bottom.

For golfers who have a high enough swing speed, loft jacking is not a problem. They can hit a 4 iron, they can hit a loft-jacked 6 iron. No difference, no harm. Play whatever you want and the number on bottom doesn't matter.

For most amateurs, especially those who are prideful about the days in the past, loft jacking is only hurting the game, and driving people away from something they've done for a long time because they become newly frustrated with the way they play.

How many people do you that have left the game because of jacked iron lofts?

Not saying people are leaving the game in droves because of jacked lofts, just that the trend scares me that it will make people more frustrated with golf

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#196 Johnnypenso

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 06:39 PM

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Not saying people are leaving the game in droves because of jacked lofts, just that the trend scares me that it will make people more frustrated with golf
Not sure why that would be the case though.  Loft jacked clubs tend to come with a bunch of features that make things a bit easier for your weekend duffers.  Generous offsets, wider soles, lower CofG, hotter faces, all things that help your higher handicapper keep the ball straighter, hit it higher and do a little less gouging and be more consistent with their mishits.  Logically they should be a little more accurate by hitting that shorter loft jacked 8 iron into the green that replaced their more traditionally lofted and maybe less forgiving 7 or even 6 iron. Better shots overall = happier golfers no?

Edited by Johnnypenso, 17 May 2018 - 06:39 PM.


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#197 matchavez

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:25 PM

View PostJohnnypenso, on 17 May 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Not saying people are leaving the game in droves because of jacked lofts, just that the trend scares me that it will make people more frustrated with golf
Not sure why that would be the case though.  Loft jacked clubs tend to come with a bunch of features that make things a bit easier for your weekend duffers.  Generous offsets, wider soles, lower CofG, hotter faces, all things that help your higher handicapper keep the ball straighter, hit it higher and do a little less gouging and be more consistent with their mishits.  Logically they should be a little more accurate by hitting that shorter loft jacked 8 iron into the green that replaced their more traditionally lofted and maybe less forgiving 7 or even 6 iron. Better shots overall = happier golfers no?

Knowing one of the guys in our group, let me continue that thinking to where he's ended up...

Better shots overall? For a while...
Then hitting longer iron shots that appear to be "mid-irons" based on stamps...
Then hitting "hero" shots because he doesn't think they are "hero" shots
Frustration sets in
Walks off early, waits a few weeks to come back.

This is a guy that spent more money than I did on a custom set. Mind you that this is a limited sample, but when people talk about frustrations, this is the genesis. It was Shakespeare that said "expectation is the root of all heartache".

So that's why the psychology of the "stamp" can and does matter.

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#198 kiwihacker

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:07 AM

View Postfillwelix, on 17 May 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

To everyone in the "Who cares just play what you play" camp, I posted this earlier but it seems to have been lost:

I know a lot of people get really annoyed at these conversations, "just hit what you hit and it doesn't matter what number is on the bottom", but this is really problematic to me. I think a lot of people get into these ____ measuring contests with how far the hit X club, regardless of whether or not they're aware of the loft jacking.

After that, they get a new set that has a 6 iron that's more like a 4 iron, and their swing absolutely does not cooperate with that low loft.

From there, they're not going to get hybrids and start their irons at a 7 or 8 iron, because "I'm a man, what, you think I can't hit a 6 iron???" because they've always been able to hit a 6 iron.

What we end up with is people gaming clubs they absolutely should not, but can't seem to understand that the clubs they have now are not the clubs they had then. If you'd ask someone 20 years ago "should a 60 year old amateur play a 4 iron?" they'd probably say no, if their swing speed wasn't high enough. But we see that more and more just because the same lofted club says "6" on the bottom.

For golfers who have a high enough swing speed, loft jacking is not a problem. They can hit a 4 iron, they can hit a loft-jacked 6 iron. No difference, no harm. Play whatever you want and the number on bottom doesn't matter.

For most amateurs, especially those who are prideful about the days in the past, loft jacking is only hurting the game, and driving people away from something they've done for a long time because they become newly frustrated with the way they play.

I made the point earlier in the thread. In the mid 2000's everyone was giving up on their 'hard to hit' 21° 3 iron and even their 24° 4 iron in favour of the new fangled, easier to hit hybrids. Nowadays those same golfers that eschewed those hard to hit long irons are now unwittingly hitting a 21° 4 iron or 24° 5 iron. But don't worry. The magical 50° gap wedge seems to be sacrosanct. You might just need 5-7° gaps to get there from your jacked 43°-45° pitching wedge.
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#199 dlygrisse

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:29 AM

View PostSean2, on 08 May 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

View Postkiwihacker, on 07 May 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

I posted this earlier in the thread but the biggest irony to me is the modern 5-Gw starts at 22 and ends at 50. i.e. the same as the old school 3-Pw. But instead of nice consistent 4 increments like the old sets you start off with 2 increments, then 3 then 4 then 5 then 6 in order to still get to the magic 50. Some say the number stamped on the bottom of the club doesn't matter that gapping seems crazy to me.

Modern    Old school
5 iron 22 3 iron  22
6 iron 24 4 iron  26
7 iron 26 5 iron  30
8 iron 29 6 iron  34
9 iron 33 7 iron  38
Pw     38 8 iron  42
Pw2  44 9 iron   46
GW   50  PW      50

I have seen a few sets with a 21.5 5-irons. I think the traditional l 4-PW set will soon be dead as most golfers are unable to hit 4 and 5 irons. My 6-iron is 27, and that is where my set starts.

Its funny, because I know what you mean, but a traditional set is 2-pw or 3-pw. Go back farther and its 1-9 and the 10 was a putter. Prior to that clubs just had names, niblicks etc. personally I hope we come full circle and just go back to naming clubs and buying one at a time.

Edited by dlygrisse, 18 May 2018 - 06:30 AM.

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#200 Double Dutch

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:51 AM

What exactly is the supposed problem? the only thing that matters is if the set gives decent distance gaps for the intended user, and I think this manufacturer did take that into account. These are very, very chunky clubs, and smaller loft increments in the long clubs make perfect sense for such clubs. In hybrids a 2* loft gap is often enough for a 10 yard distance gap; in woods, even less is required, hence the usual 15* 3w, 16.5* 4w and 18* 5w.  However, if you gave the intended audience for these SGI clubs a set of blades, THEN a small gap between the long irons would make less sense, because the slow swinger would hit the 3, 4, and 5 irons almost the same distance.

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#201 phatchrisrules

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 07:23 AM

I think I can sum this up perfectly after my day of fits I did yesterday.  This is all based on GCQuad data so it's pretty accurate, using Srixon Z-Stars.  

Person 1 -- 79mph 6i with a Mizuno MX200 6i with Dynalite XP S300.  The loft was bent 2* strong and 2* upright (27/63* for those that care).  He was hitting it about 15* launch and 4300 spin, so too low for his swing speed.  I grabbed him a 900 Hot Metal and put in an Accra 95CWT and bent it to 64* lie while the loft was 27*.  He hit these 1.5* higher (16.5*), gained 3mph in ball speed, maintained swing speed at 78.8-79.5mph, and got his spin up to 5100 RPM.  So loft for loft, surprise surprise the GI iron with chunkier sole launched and spun more and got him an extra half a club in distance with the same swing speed and was peppering the flag.  We bent his iron to 64* lie and tried again.  He now hit his a bit straighter but the distance pickup was not existent.

Person 2 -- Lady in her 50s.  Had some 35+ year old Lady PGA irons with a massive flange on the bottom and steel shafts.  No matter the club, whether it was her 33* 6i, her 15* 3 wood, her 22* 7 wood, or my 30* Ping G30 7i absolutely nothing went more than 80 yards on the fly.  We tried a Nippon Zelos 7 in R2 flex to try and maintain the same weight, and then tried an Accra i40 to help her pick up some speed.  No matter what it was, it flew 80 yards.  We then tried a Rogue 27* hybrid, same result, 80 yards carry.  She apparently "loved" her 3i, despite it carrying maybe 85 yards.  If you don't have the swing speed, you don't need a lot of clubs and the proof is in the carry.  I told her to keep her clubs for the rest of her life.

Stronger lofts with a better head design do work for some people.  Extremely weak lofts work for other people.  It is all swing dependent on how much power, spin, and height you can generate using your swing.  To have one blanket statement that "all jacked lofts are hurting the game" is silly, just as "all traditional lofts are stupid" is equally as pointless.  Play with what works, end of story.
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#202 matchavez

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:07 PM

View Postphatchrisrules, on 18 May 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

I think I can sum this up perfectly after my day of fits I did yesterday.  This is all based on GCQuad data so it's pretty accurate, using Srixon Z-Stars.  

Person 1 -- 79mph 6i with a Mizuno MX200 6i with Dynalite XP S300.  The loft was bent 2* strong and 2* upright (27/63* for those that care).  He was hitting it about 15* launch and 4300 spin, so too low for his swing speed.  I grabbed him a 900 Hot Metal and put in an Accra 95CWT and bent it to 64* lie while the loft was 27*.  He hit these 1.5* higher (16.5*), gained 3mph in ball speed, maintained swing speed at 78.8-79.5mph, and got his spin up to 5100 RPM.  So loft for loft, surprise surprise the GI iron with chunkier sole launched and spun more and got him an extra half a club in distance with the same swing speed and was peppering the flag.  We bent his iron to 64* lie and tried again.  He now hit his a bit straighter but the distance pickup was not existent.

Person 2 -- Lady in her 50s.  Had some 35+ year old Lady PGA irons with a massive flange on the bottom and steel shafts.  No matter the club, whether it was her 33* 6i, her 15* 3 wood, her 22* 7 wood, or my 30* Ping G30 7i absolutely nothing went more than 80 yards on the fly.  We tried a Nippon Zelos 7 in R2 flex to try and maintain the same weight, and then tried an Accra i40 to help her pick up some speed.  No matter what it was, it flew 80 yards.  We then tried a Rogue 27* hybrid, same result, 80 yards carry.  She apparently "loved" her 3i, despite it carrying maybe 85 yards.  If you don't have the swing speed, you don't need a lot of clubs and the proof is in the carry.  I told her to keep her clubs for the rest of her life.

Stronger lofts with a better head design do work for some people.  Extremely weak lofts work for other people.  It is all swing dependent on how much power, spin, and height you can generate using your swing.  To have one blanket statement that "all jacked lofts are hurting the game" is silly, just as "all traditional lofts are stupid" is equally as pointless.  Play with what works, end of story.

Yep. This thread is definitely over. The arguments are just recycling. It's all brought to its logical conclusion above... it isn't going to be solved, and as Chris says, play what fits.

Just don't buy a set with two Pitching Wedges. ;)

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#203 Shallowface

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:49 PM

View Post1Mordrid1, on 25 April 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostDeCuchi, on 25 April 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Why do people say these would go to the moon if they weren't jacked? They wouldn't? The 39* iron would launch and spin exactly the same whether it had 7,9, or 12 stamped on the bottom. They would perform exactly the same without the ego stroke. It's marketing driven plain and simple. I'm sure they'd be more user friendly with better gapping as most of the current releases would.

Completely false.... The extra mass, low CoG, and extra offset of a GI or SGI club creates a much higher peak flight than what you would see with a traditional blade with a similar loft.

https://www.golfwork...-ratings/a/870/

It is surprising how high the COG is on some SGI clubs, despite what the marketing says, and is often higher than more blade like designs.

There are two schools of thought on offset.  My experience puts me in the camp that believes it actually lowers ball flight.

Studying Ralph Maltby's research on iron design has saved me a lot of money.  There just isn't much that can be done with a conventional (anything that isn't a Cleveland like All hybrid set) iron other than strengthening lofts, so that's what companies have done.  You've got COG, sole design and MOI.  That's it.  It's a tough sell to a truly informed consumer.

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#204 dlygrisse

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 06:56 PM

If they took this set of irons and changed the name of the 2nd gap wedge to PW people wou,dnthink something was wrong with them. :)
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#205 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 08:06 PM

View PostShallowface, on 18 May 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

You've got COG, sole design and MOI.  That's it.  It's a tough sell to a truly informed consumer.

Not, it isn't.  You hit how many iron shots a round?  At least 18.  Probably more, if you are a high cap, and yet more still if you ever lay up.  If you play at least 2-3 times a week, that's hundreds of shots a week.  I've been playing about seven years now, so how many iron shots is that?

You can't just say "eh, they are really close, so who cares" when you have that many iterations.  Small differences matter a whole lot over a ton of use.  If you travel a mile starting a foot apart from someone on paths that diverge by one centimeter after a mile you'll be pretty close still.  After 3,000 miles you'll be really far apart.  So it is in picking irons.

So unless you either 1. don't play much or 2. are willing to say "eh, whatever, they're pretty much the same so I don't care about the small advantage or disadvantage I suffer every time I swing over tens of thousands of swings" then it isn't a tough sell.

You really want the perfect iron because you're going to use it so damn much that even a microscopic difference will add up over time.  This is a bad way to think about picking equipment, IMO.

Now, if you don't play much or you don't care about your score much, I totally agree with you.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 18 May 2018 - 08:07 PM.

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#206 matchavez

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 10:28 PM

View Postdlygrisse, on 18 May 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

If they took this set of irons and changed the name of the 2nd gap wedge to PW people wou,dnthink something was wrong with them. :)

Funny thing... if instead of 5-9P1P2G, they'd have called it 4-G, it would have been at least more conventional. Then you'd have a "7-iron" at 29, and then it's not "the most egregious", and I don't start the thread.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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#207 vanillafunk616

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 12:40 PM

View PostShallowface, on 18 May 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

View Post1Mordrid1, on 25 April 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostDeCuchi, on 25 April 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Why do people say these would go to the moon if they weren't jacked? They wouldn't? The 39* iron would launch and spin exactly the same whether it had 7,9, or 12 stamped on the bottom. They would perform exactly the same without the ego stroke. It's marketing driven plain and simple. I'm sure they'd be more user friendly with better gapping as most of the current releases would.

Completely false.... The extra mass, low CoG, and extra offset of a GI or SGI club creates a much higher peak flight than what you would see with a traditional blade with a similar loft.

https://www.golfwork...-ratings/a/870/

It is surprising how high the COG is on some SGI clubs, despite what the marketing says, and is often higher than more blade like designs.

There are two schools of thought on offset.  My experience puts me in the camp that believes it actually lowers ball flight.

Studying Ralph Maltby's research on iron design has saved me a lot of money.  There just isn't much that can be done with a conventional (anything that isn't a Cleveland like All hybrid set) iron other than strengthening lofts, so that's what companies have done.  You've got COG, sole design and MOI.  That's it.  It's a tough sell to a truly informed consumer.

I agree.  I would like to hear what aspect of design causes the club to shoot so much higher than a standard set that "forces" them to strengthen lofts so much.  Then again companies will never put out real information about cg position, because then they will have to broach the reality that this year's model clubs are not all things to all people.  In fact older cg positions will probably fit you better.  I'm sure that's why ambiguous phrases are used so people will see what they want to in the clubs.

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#208 Cwebb

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 01:26 PM

View Postvanillafunk616, on 19 May 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:


I would like to hear what aspect of design causes the club to shoot so much higher than a standard set that "forces" them to strengthen lofts so much.

Any time the ball speed is higher, the ball has more time to continue going up to a higher apex or "peak height".  So in many cases, it's not that the design produces a higher launch angle off the face, it's that it produces a faster ball speed from "face flex"....which can in some cases produce a higher shot apex.

Many have it ingrained in their mind, that most of today's forgiving iron designs have lower COG's.  However when actually measured, we find that they don't.

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