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Breaking 90 - the "easiest" way?


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#61 om18v

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:21 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 20 April 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 19 April 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 19 April 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

No, this seems like you are training yourself to play golf in a overly conservative way that will never allow you to improve.  Also there are many par 4's that you need to carry the ball a significant way to the fairway.  What happens if you mis hit one of these shots, or 3 putt, or miss the green on your approach.  

Course management is a great way to shoot lower scores but this seems ill conceived.  I know plenty of people, who if I caddied for them I could knock 5-10 strokes off their game, but this is NOT how I would approach most holes.

We will have to agree to disagree.  I'm sure a good golfer would not manage the course the way I do.  When I started playing someone much better than I told me, "golf is a game of choices".  Seems to me, at any level, that holds true.  I started golfing at age 57 and have never been an athlete.  The chances of becoming a scratch golfer are not even in my mind let alone feasible in reality.

I don’t think we are disagreeing. I’m not a long hitter, my point is strategy is very important. I just like this standardized strategy. Each hole is different. Some holes you play safe, others can be attacked.

You want to drop strokes then learn to keep the tee shot in play. Use a driver when it makes sense, use a long iron if necessary then work on your short game. You’ll break 90 quickly.

What I got from the videos was a different way to manage the course when I'm in trouble.  I have found splitting a long distance into two shots with the same club is much better option than going for that once in a while great shot.  My club for tee shots are pretty much even between driver, 3 wood or 4 iron.  A playing partner of mine is starting to use the two equal shots when in trouble and it is helping his game also.


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#62 davep043

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:23 AM

View Postjslane57, on 20 April 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

There are plenty of par 3s in the 170 range with huge trouble left and right, no trouble in front. Depending on pin placement and such, it makes sense for any golfer to choose a club that will only reach the front of the green. For someone trying to break 90, avoiding a 7 on a par 3 makes a ton of sense, even if it means hitting the tee shot 150 yards.
This could be correct if:
1.  The trouble doesn't start until you get green high, or
2.  The player is a whole lot straighter with a 7-iron than he is with a 5-iron.

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#63 om18v

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:24 AM

View PostHitEmTrue, on 20 April 2018 - 12:47 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 19 April 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Today I had a perfect example of how I have been changing the way I manage the course.  Hole 18 par 4, 365 yards to the center where the pin is.  After duffing my tee shot 110 yards I have 255 to go.  Experience tells me I cannot make it to the green with my next shot so it will be two shots no matter what. I could hit a 4 iron around 180 and and have 75 yards to go.  75 yards is not one of my best shots, although with taking lessons and practice I am working on it.  Based on my know ability, two 9 iron shots at 130 each will get me to the back of the green for a chance at par but most likely two putt for bogey.  So I split the 255 with the nine and two putt and card the bogey.

Before watching the videos that I am talking about, I would have went with the 4 iron/180 yard or even worse attempted 3 wood off the deck for a very hopeful 190+.  Where would that have got me?  It is still two shots after the duffed tee shot.  Seems to me the best chance is to break it in two even shots with the same club that I have confidence in.  That is how the breaking 90 vid has given me a new way to approach the course.  Please explain how this is wrong.  There has to be some high cappers on this forum that thinking about managing the course in a different way could be beneficial.  That is what I got out of the videos I believe the original post is about.

You should be able to hit it closer from 75 than from 130.   For example, hit an easy (half swing, not a full swing that you slow down).

But let's assume you can't do that.   Then hit 7-iron, gap wedge.   Or 6-iron full sand wedge.  Find a way to get closer for your final approach to the green.  

For me, that is just another option, not necessarily the best on any given round.  My goal is just get it on the green.

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#64 sethdavidsdad

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:48 AM

It doesn't matter really if you split the distance or go full. You want to always hit shots you know you can pull off 70% of the time or more. Most people can't hit a green with 3 wood from more than 220 out. If you can't break 90 more than likely you can't hit 3 wood solid but 1 out of 10 times. Get really good with a PW and a 7 iron. By good, I mean just get comfortable enough that you can hit them solid most of the time. Then just try to hit shots to leave you either a PW or 7.
Next always chip it on the green. Even if you have to chip away from the pin. Chipping and pitch same as full shots, don't try the shots that you can't pull off most of the time. Sometimes you have to just aim away from the pin hit the green and 2 putt.
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#65 jslane57

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:54 AM

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 20 April 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

It doesn't matter really if you split the distance or go full. You want to always hit shots you know you can pull off 70% of the time or more. Most people can't hit a green with 3 wood from more than 220 out. If you can't break 90 more than likely you can't hit 3 wood solid but 1 out of 10 times. Get really good with a PW and a 7 iron. By good, I mean just get comfortable enough that you can hit them solid most of the time. Then just try to hit shots to leave you either a PW or 7.
Next always chip it on the green. Even if you have to chip away from the pin. Chipping and pitch same as full shots, don't try the shots that you can't pull off most of the time. Sometimes you have to just aim away from the pin hit the green and 2 putt.
Yup, it is amazing the swing flaws that can be covered up by using a 7-iron. There are a couple golfer in my golf league that own the highest hcps, and rightly so. I'm giving them two strokes a hole a few times a round. When they're using their drivers I'm confident I will still compete, but when they start teeing off with 7-irons and 5-irons, I've got zero chance.

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#66 GMR

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:56 AM

View Postjslane57, on 20 April 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

View PostGMR, on 20 April 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

View Postandrue, on 20 April 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 19 April 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Today I had a perfect example of how I have been changing the way I manage the course.  Hole 18 par 4, 365 yards to the center where the pin is.  After duffing my tee shot 110 yards I have 255 to go.  Experience tells me I cannot make it to the green with my next shot so it will be two shots no matter what. I could hit a 4 iron around 180 and and have 75 yards to go.  75 yards is not one of my best shots, although with taking lessons and practice I am working on it.  Based on my know ability, two 9 iron shots at 130 each will get me to the back of the green for a chance at par but most likely two putt for bogey.  So I split the 255 with the nine and two putt and card the bogey.
I've posted before that the way I broke 100 consistently and a technique I return to on bad swing days is to follow a simple rule - never approach a green from more than 110 yards or less than 80. That allows me to use my three wedges (SW 56, 60 and 64) with a full swing to get the ball onto the green. In my heyday (something I ought to revisit) I could reliably get the ball to within a couple of yards of the pin from there. And the really nice thing is that it's a huuuge target to aim for from your previous position. 30 yards deep and the entire fairway and light rough in width. Hundreds of square yards to aim for. An easy target for almost any golfer.

It may mean reducing the length of your tee shot but often that just means using a more reliable club. I didn't have to because my driver back then was my most reliable club anyway, but it meant I hardly ever used my longest irons/hybrids which was a good thing. I don't use that technique much now because it's pretty much exchanging the 'possibility of a par, likelihood of a double bogey' for the near certainty of a bogey. It'll only let you break 90 if you rely on luck for a couple of pars or play on a par 70 course. However any time I mishit a shot and it comes up short my next thought is always to pick a club based on that rule. Forget trying for an amazing recovery - go for something attainable :)
So you'd lay up on a 170yd par 3 then?  Something tells me that doesn't exactly maximise your likelihood of a good score.
I might be wrong but I think the point is, when trying to break 90, you don't need to par the par 3's. On a Par 72 course you only need to par once, assuming you make bogey 17 more times. So theoretically on a 170 yard par 3, you hit a PW to 120... then pitch on from 50 yards, then 2 putt. That fits the bill. With 3 par 5's... you likely have 3 solid chances for that par, and probably another 1 or 2 more chances on the shorter par 4's.

Not saying I'd agree with laying up on a par 3, but the  "game plan" supports that I guess.
There are plenty of par 3s in the 170 range with huge trouble left and right, no trouble in front. Depending on pin placement and such, it makes sense for any golfer to choose a club that will only reach the front of the green. For someone trying to break 90, avoiding a 7 on a par 3 makes a ton of sense, even if it means hitting the tee shot 150 yards.
I'm sorry but if you are trying to avoid a 7 on a par 3 you are trying to avoid 10 on a par 5, and you are not breaking 90.  Sure it happens to us all every once in a while (Sergio just made a 13 on a hole in a major), but honestly if you are needing to worry about scores greater than double-bogey on holes (especially par 3s) it means that you struggle to make consistent contact with the ball, or there is a glaring weakness in your game which can be easily addressed--i.e. it takes you 3 strokes to get out of a bunker; you are prone to 4-putt; you blade chips over the green...

I think a poster earlier made a very good point.  In the grand scheme of things 90 is not a great score.  That's not to discount the feeling of accomplishment that those who have not yet gotten there should feel when they reach that milestone, but employing some bizarre strategy with the sole purpose of weaselling your way into the high-80s (even if it works, which is highly debatable), defeats the purpose.  Play to your strengths and away from your weaknesses, and put the work in to make those weaknesses less glaring.  You will improve those weaknesses and you will break 90, and when you do the accomplishment will be all the sweeter because you will have actually improved as a golfer.

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#67 jslane57

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 10:04 AM

View PostGMR, on 20 April 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry but if you are trying to avoid a 7 on a par 3 you are trying to avoid 10 on a par 5, and you are not breaking 90.  Sure it happens to us all every once in a while (Sergio just made a 13 on a hole in a major), but honestly if you are needing to worry about scores greater than double-bogey on holes (especially par 3s) it means that you struggle to make consistent contact with the ball, or there is a glaring weakness in your game which can be easily addressed--i.e. it takes you 3 strokes to get out of a bunker; you are prone to 4-putt; you blade chips over the green...

I think a poster earlier made a very good point.  In the grand scheme of things 90 is not a great score.  That's not to discount the feeling of accomplishment that those who have not yet gotten there should feel when they reach that milestone, but employing some bizarre strategy with the sole purpose of weaselling your way into the high-80s (even if it works, which is highly debatable), defeats the purpose.  Play to your strengths and away from your weaknesses, and put the work in to make those weaknesses less glaring.  You will improve those weaknesses and you will break 90, and when you do the accomplishment will be all the sweeter because you will have actually improved as a golfer.
Interesting post. If you're playing to your strengths and avoiding your weakness, you certainly are playing to avoid big numbers. And proudly so. Since the lowest score wins in golf, is there such thing as weaseling one's way? Or isn't that simply playing the game?
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#68 Ping Zings

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 10:14 AM

Play every hole as a par 5 and then work down from there.
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#69 jdang307

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 20 April 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

It doesn't matter really if you split the distance or go full. You want to always hit shots you know you can pull off 70% of the time or more. Most people can't hit a green with 3 wood from more than 220 out. If you can't break 90 more than likely you can't hit 3 wood solid but 1 out of 10 times. Get really good with a PW and a 7 iron. By good, I mean just get comfortable enough that you can hit them solid most of the time. Then just try to hit shots to leave you either a PW or 7.
Next always chip it on the green. Even if you have to chip away from the pin. Chipping and pitch same as full shots, don't try the shots that you can't pull off most of the time. Sometimes you have to just aim away from the pin hit the green and 2 putt.
Solid advice. If I'm playing for money (which is almost every time, we chip in $50 per round, winner takes all) that's how I play. But when I'm not playing for money, I'm going all out, because I'm trying to get better. I get to the range once a week, a round once a week at most, sometimes every two weeks. Not a lot of time to practice.

But yes, 3-4 times out of 10 I hit my woods solid :D. I lost my driver two weeks ago but this past two weeks was shooting arrows with the driver. Woods need work. Irons was my strongest, then my weakest, now it's okay. Need to get better with mid-irons and woods.  I can't get all 3 firing. Usually 2 out of 3

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#70 HitEmTrue

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 11:48 AM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

I might be wrong but I think the point is, when trying to break 90, you don't need to par the par 3's. On a Par 72 course you only need to par once, assuming you make bogey 17 more times. So theoretically on a 170 yard par 3, you hit a PW to 120... then pitch on from 50 yards, then 2 putt. That fits the bill. With 3 par 5's... you likely have 3 solid chances for that par, and probably another 1 or 2 more chances on the shorter par 4's.

Not saying I'd agree with laying up on a par 3, but the  "game plan" supports that I guess.

Of course you don't need to par the par 3's to break 90.  But the strategy should be to maximize the chances of success on every hole.  Notice I said success, and not par.  Laying back on a par 3 brings double bogey (or worse) into play for someone who plays in the 90's and above.

On a longer and difficult par 3, with trouble around the green, and there is no trouble directly in front of the green, then playing to that location may be a good strategy for some folks.

If someone can consistently get down in 3 from 100 yards (to make a bogey), they wouldn't be having problems breaking 90 in the first place.


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#71 GMR

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 11:51 AM

View Postjslane57, on 20 April 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Interesting post. If you're playing to your strengths and avoiding your weakness, you certainly are playing to avoid big numbers. And proudly so. Since the lowest score wins in golf, is there such thing as weaseling one's way? Or isn't that simply playing the game?
Take your point and agree to an extent but there's a fine line. I can only speak from experience. I'm a longish hitter so I can get away with things like leaving any club longer than a 4i at home because I have zero confidence in my woods at that point in time (something I have done a time or two). While that creates a small amount of satisfaction in having found a way to post a number, it also frustrates me that I'm unable to play to my potential and motivates me to go to the range or take a lesson so that I don't have to even consider doing the same the next time out. I would view that mindset as an absolute last resort. I'd honestly probably sooner give up golf before I'd pull my woods for a full season, but that's just reflective of my competitive personality and constant drive to improve. Depends what you are hoping to get from golf I suppose.

Edited by GMR, 20 April 2018 - 11:52 AM.


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#72 HitEmTrue

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:01 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

Yes this channel but he has another video where it's him doing the process. He shot an 87 I think... 87 pretty nice shots. I'll have a handful of really ugly ones tossed in... Thin a wedge over the green... etc.

He looks like a good golfer.  So he's purposefully giving shots away to teach someone break 90?  Someone who can't break 90 cannot use this strategy.  If you can hit the ball solid like he is (I only watched 3 holes), you should be hitting the ball further (farther?  never can figure that out) off the tee, go for the green more, and scare breaking 80.  Not 90.

Someone in this thread mentioned teeing off with a 3-iron instead of a driver.  Get a hybrid or two.  :)

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#73 Z1ggy16

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:21 PM

View PostHitEmTrue, on 20 April 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

Yes this channel but he has another video where it's him doing the process. He shot an 87 I think... 87 pretty nice shots. I'll have a handful of really ugly ones tossed in... Thin a wedge over the green... etc.

He looks like a good golfer.  So he's purposefully giving shots away to teach someone break 90?  Someone who can't break 90 cannot use this strategy.  If you can hit the ball solid like he is (I only watched 3 holes), you should be hitting the ball further (farther?  never can figure that out) off the tee, go for the green more, and scare breaking 80.  Not 90.

Someone in this thread mentioned teeing off with a 3-iron instead of a driver.  Get a hybrid or two.  :)
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Ended up shooting an 85. Rules were anything outside of 5ft was a 2 putt. I only missed I think 3 fairways, and I ended up in 1 bunker greenside and also I ended up in some bushes around one of the greens once because I just dead pulled one. Also got my 3rd shot from 99 yards to within 3 inches on one of the longer par 4's ;).

So my take away here is that if I can manage to never 3 putt, I should easily be able to shoot 85 on a normal course from the whites. I took all bunkers out of play, that was my main strategy along with hitting nice easy 3i's off the tee (about 240 yards for me). For my 3rd shot in, I tried to either get to about 30 yards (bump and run GW) or about 90-95 which was a flighted GW, about 100%. Most of my 2nd shots were 6i's although there were a couple of 8i and 7i to get the right distance for my approach.
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#74 SNIPERBBB

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:31 PM

View Postjslane57, on 20 April 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Interesting post. If you're playing to your strengths and avoiding your weakness, you certainly are playing to avoid big numbers. And proudly so. Since the lowest score wins in golf, is there such thing as weaseling one's way? Or isn't that simply playing the game?

Brings to mind the poor guy that putted his way up to green on the 17th at sawgrass. Can't remember the story as to why he did it but that is a sorry way to play golf. I'd break every club I owned and burn the balls if I was reduced to doing that just to not make a big number or loose a few balls.
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#75 davep043

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:35 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:


So my take away here is that if I can manage to never 3 putt, I should easily be able to shoot 85 on a normal course from the whites. I took all bunkers out of play, that was my main strategy along with hitting nice easy 3i's off the tee (about 240 yards for me).
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that most 20+ handicappers don't hit their driver 240 yards.  Try this again, but limit your tee shots to 150 yards or so, that's probably a good 5 or 6 iron for most of the players who struggle to break 90.


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#76 Z1ggy16

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:39 PM

View Postdavep043, on 20 April 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

So my take away here is that if I can manage to never 3 putt, I should easily be able to shoot 85 on a normal course from the whites. I took all bunkers out of play, that was my main strategy along with hitting nice easy 3i's off the tee (about 240 yards for me).
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that most 20+ handicappers don't hit their driver 240 yards.  Try this again, but limit your tee shots to 150 yards or so, that's probably a good 5 or 6 iron for most of the players who struggle to break 90.
Like I said... distance isn't my issue. I'm a former college baseball player... I'm only 30. I had to use the UDI though because pinehurst from the blacks is what... 7000-7200?yards? I asked to be putt on the 6400-ish range tees but I guess the guy didn't listen or couldn't change the settings. There was a 600 yard par 5 and a bunch of 400+ yard par 4's. Plus I just wanted to see if I could give myself a little advantage by being over 200 yards on most shots, as opposed to about 180 (my typical land + roll on a 6i). There were also a few fairways that didn't even start til about 180 yards out.

I could easily play a 6400 yard course with my 6i, and I will definitely try it out. Tomorrow when I play.... I will probably try to do what I did today: 3 or 4i off the tee, then 2nd shot to a comfortable pitching distance, unless there's absolutely no trouble around the green or I'm inside 120 yards. I may get weird looks laying up on par 3's... but a 30 yard chip off the fairway for me... much easier than a bunker shot, especially in the april/may months when the sand is still very heavy and wet most places.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 20 April 2018 - 12:42 PM.

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#77 andrue

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:53 PM

View PostGMR, on 20 April 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

View Postandrue, on 20 April 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 19 April 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Today I had a perfect example of how I have been changing the way I manage the course.  Hole 18 par 4, 365 yards to the center where the pin is.  After duffing my tee shot 110 yards I have 255 to go.  Experience tells me I cannot make it to the green with my next shot so it will be two shots no matter what. I could hit a 4 iron around 180 and and have 75 yards to go.  75 yards is not one of my best shots, although with taking lessons and practice I am working on it.  Based on my know ability, two 9 iron shots at 130 each will get me to the back of the green for a chance at par but most likely two putt for bogey.  So I split the 255 with the nine and two putt and card the bogey.
I've posted before that the way I broke 100 consistently and a technique I return to on bad swing days is to follow a simple rule - never approach a green from more than 110 yards or less than 80. That allows me to use my three wedges (SW 56, 60 and 64) with a full swing to get the ball onto the green. In my heyday (something I ought to revisit) I could reliably get the ball to within a couple of yards of the pin from there. And the really nice thing is that it's a huuuge target to aim for from your previous position. 30 yards deep and the entire fairway and light rough in width. Hundreds of square yards to aim for. An easy target for almost any golfer.

It may mean reducing the length of your tee shot but often that just means using a more reliable club. I didn't have to because my driver back then was my most reliable club anyway, but it meant I hardly ever used my longest irons/hybrids which was a good thing. I don't use that technique much now because it's pretty much exchanging the 'possibility of a par, likelihood of a double bogey' for the near certainty of a bogey. It'll only let you break 90 if you rely on luck for a couple of pars or play on a par 70 course. However any time I mishit a shot and it comes up short my next thought is always to pick a club based on that rule. Forget trying for an amazing recovery - go for something attainable :)
So you'd lay up on a 170yd par 3 then?  Something tells me that doesn't exactly maximise your likelihood of a good score.
Yes, I would. In fact I still do that at my home club, where most of the par 3s are in excess of 180 yards (it's a par 70 course). If my swing is good I might try for the green but SW, SW, one putt is more likely to get me par. Worst case is a bogey and that lets me break 90 ;)

Edited by andrue, 20 April 2018 - 12:58 PM.

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#78 jut111

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:59 PM

I'm sorry but I'm confused. You don't spray driver, you hit an easy 3 iron 240, and you're struggling to break 90?

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#79 davep043

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:03 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 20 April 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

So my take away here is that if I can manage to never 3 putt, I should easily be able to shoot 85 on a normal course from the whites. I took all bunkers out of play, that was my main strategy along with hitting nice easy 3i's off the tee (about 240 yards for me).
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that most 20+ handicappers don't hit their driver 240 yards.  Try this again, but limit your tee shots to 150 yards or so, that's probably a good 5 or 6 iron for most of the players who struggle to break 90.
Like I said... distance isn't my issue. I'm a former college baseball player... I'm only 30. I had to use the UDI though because pinehurst from the blacks is what... 7000-7200?yards? I asked to be putt on the 6400-ish range tees but I guess the guy didn't listen or couldn't change the settings. There was a 600 yard par 5 and a bunch of 400+ yard par 4's. Plus I just wanted to see if I could give myself a little advantage by being over 200 yards on most shots, as opposed to about 180 (my typical land + roll on a 6i). There were also a few fairways that didn't even start til about 180 yards out.

I could easily play a 6400 yard course with my 6i, and I will definitely try it out. Tomorrow when I play.... I will probably try to do what I did today: 3 or 4i off the tee, then 2nd shot to a comfortable pitching distance, unless there's absolutely no trouble around the green or I'm inside 120 yards. I may get weird looks laying up on par 3's... but a 30 yard chip off the fairway for me... much easier than a bunker shot, especially in the april/may months when the sand is still very heavy and wet most places.
My apologies, I didn't look back to realize that you were the original poster.  With your length, you shouldn't be thinking about breaking 90 for long, you should be looking at 80 pretty quickly.  What you really need to do isn't to change your course management strategy, you need to work on your weaknesses.  You told us, fat chips, bad putting, bunker play, poor contact with full swings.  THAT's what you need to do to break 90, and then 80.  For reference, I carry my driver about 240, and I'm playing to a 5.  Your potential is at least that good, probably better.

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#80 Z1ggy16

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:21 PM

View Postjut111, on 20 April 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'm sorry but I'm confused. You don't spray driver, you hit an easy 3 iron 240, and you're struggling to break 90?
Yes.

1) Read the thread first of all. I still lose a ball off the tee with driver every now and then. Last weak, I lost 1 ball off the tee, driver, big miss left because I had to carry a bunch of water. I got nervous and tried to pump it 110%... mistake. I made double that hole.

2) The 3i is a u65. I can carry it 210-220 with out much issue and because it's pretty low spin, on a  nice fairway it will roll 20 yards. For reference I have the potential to hit driver about 285, and I have trackman data from my fitting 2 months at club champion ago to back that up. It's not like I'm 280 down the middle every single hole. It happens 4 or 5 times a round, and I'll hit the green or come close, then duff a chip... or 3 putt. I average maybe 2-3 par's per round. I will of course still go into the rough or even deeper into the rough, under trees, etc. Without short game skill, being anywhere but in an awesome lie is very bad for me.

3) I am a BAD putter. And when I say bad, I mean.. 40+ putts bad, every single weak. I can never get up and down from bunkers... I think in the past 2 years Ive gotten up and down once. Lastly, I'm not good at chipping out of the rough, especially down hill lies. Bladed 6/10 times... the other 3 times it's fatted because the last time I bladed it... and then once out of 10, I'll hit it good and it'll be a decent shot.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 20 April 2018 - 01:23 PM.

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#81 HitEmTrue

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:31 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 20 April 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

View Postjut111, on 20 April 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'm sorry but I'm confused. You don't spray driver, you hit an easy 3 iron 240, and you're struggling to break 90?
Yes.

1) Read the thread first of all. I still lose a ball off the tee with driver every now and then. Last weak, I lost 1 ball off the tee, driver, big miss left because I had to carry a bunch of water. I got nervous and tried to pump it 110%... mistake. I made double that hole.

2) The 3i is a u65. I can carry it 210-220 with out much issue and because it's pretty low spin, on a  nice fairway it will roll 20 yards. For reference I have the potential to hit driver about 285, and I have trackman data from my fitting 2 months at club champion ago to back that up. It's not like I'm 280 down the middle every single hole. It happens 4 or 5 times a round, and I'll hit the green or come close, then duff a chip... or 3 putt. I average maybe 2-3 par's per round. I will of course still go into the rough or even deeper into the rough, under trees, etc. Without short game skill, being anywhere but in an awesome lie is very bad for me.

3) I am a BAD putter. And when I say bad, I mean.. 40+ putts bad, every single weak. I can never get up and down from bunkers... I think in the past 2 years Ive gotten up and down once. Lastly, I'm not good at chipping out of the rough, especially down hill lies. Bladed 6/10 times... the other 3 times it's fatted because the last time I bladed it... and then once out of 10, I'll hit it good and it'll be a decent shot.

Laying back is just going to get you greenside after consuming more strokes.  Get close to, or on the green in as few strokes as possible.  And work on a getting serviceable short game.  It doesn't have to be awesome.  If you are short-sided, make sure you get on the green, even if the ball rolls 20 feet past the pin.  Spend time on the course by yourself, and drop ball in spots that give you fits, and learn to hit is safely onto the green.

An occasional double bogey because you hit a tee-shot off the farm will be more than offset by the lower scores on other holes.

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#82 Z1ggy16

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 01:51 PM

At the end of the day I need to play the highest percentage shot based on my current ability. That means on a 205 yard par 4 with bunkers all around the sides of the green... probably hitting a 6i so I'm about 20 yards short and not in those bunkers.

Other times when the fairway is wide open and there is no OB, that means I can easily take driver and there's no need for laying up, because it's a "waste". It also means instead of being 220 out on a par 5... maybe hitting  a 7i then a SW instead of a sloppy 4i that might leak into the junk 10 yards off the green and likely doesn't reach the flag anyway.

I want to avoid chips (especially from the rough) from weird lies and bunkers. The course I am playing tomorrow I have never played before, but it's more parkland style from what I can tell. I think there's lots of trees from what I Can tell on the view from the club's yardage book, so being in the fairway and being pretty accurate will be key I think.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 20 April 2018 - 01:54 PM.

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#83 SurfDuffer

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 02:04 PM

If you keep the ball in play its hard not to break 90.  I've played with some seniors who couldn't reach half the par 4s in 2 yet they easily broke 90 because they hit it short but strait.
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#84 jdang307

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 02:14 PM

I suggest buying Dan's and Monte's short game videos trying both out and picking what works best for you.  I used to school almost every chip flop or pitch.

Now I'm not worried about that anymore and I'm just learning distance control. Dad and I am using a two long of a lob wedge, that is to upright. I'm waiting for a new wedge that fits me but my  friend whose dad works at Callaway is lagging on ordering it for me.

Move the ball a little forward  in your stance keep your hands a little bit in front of the club at impact, use the bounce  and hit the ground half an inch before the ball. I haven't skulled a chip in months when i used to 8/10. Nothing worst then hitting a ball close to the green, and needing to get up and down for par.

Then skulling it into a bunker on the other side.

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#85 Smash Factors

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 05:05 PM

Breaking 90 this way is only a good idea if your a senior or a junior golfer with no power.

Just because you can break 90 this way, doesn't mean it's a good long-term plan. What's the point of breaking 90 if they way your doing it won't take you any lower? I suppose it's good short-game practice but that's about it.

Eventually, you'll have to learn how to hit fairways and greens like the rest of us.

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#86 oikos1

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:23 PM

View Postme05501, on 20 April 2018 - 07:38 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 18 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 18 April 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

I think after reading some articles and seeing your advice... I may try teeing off with a 4i, or my incoming UDI. Even though I can hit driver pretty well most of the time, I think there's value in hitting the same type of club/shot over and over.

Over all else though I'll be practicing putting at least 1 hour per week on the greens. I may also experiment with "laying up" on all second shots that way I can avoid bunker shots, and touchy chips right off the green in the rough. I'm okay chipping off the fairway, 10/10 times I'll at least get it on the green. Usually just take a PW or GW and bump it. I'm sketchy on the 15 foot chips from the rough where I might need to use an open faced LW or something like that, which is usually what happens when I go for the middle of the green but pull or push the ball a bit.
If you can hit driver pretty well most of the time, why would you quit doing that which you can do pretty well most of the time?

I think it's because when a driver goes wrong, it can cost multiple strokes (OB, unplayable, failed to carry hazard, etc).

Say you hit driver on 12 holes and 8 of them end in the fairway. What is the cost of the other four? Could be as many as 12 strokes if you end up re-teeing or dropping out of a hazard. That's a lot of strokes to burn out of your 90.

I would say adding 12 strokes with 4 out of 12 driver shots is not hitting it well. Not good at all.  Looks like we have a definition issue as to what is "hitting it well".

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#87 om18v

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:42 PM

My last post with an opinion on the 50/50 split with the same club and why I believe it can be a good option.

Today's round gives me a chance to make a decision on how to approach an opportunity for par.  This is a short par 5, 435 yard dogleg left (forward tees).  Bunker 200 yards out in the center of fairway about 20 yards before dogleg with fairway sloping a bit left and down after bunker.  Pull it left of bunker and you are blocked out by the trees.  Right of the bunker makes it a long shot to the green or if too far right you are in the edge of the woods.

Normally I tee off with 3 wood and play short and right of the bunker.  Today I'm swinging the driver well so I aim directly at the bunker hoping to carry.  Hit an awesome 235 yard drive, with roll, right over the center of the bunker with down and left roll to center of fairway.  I'm 200 yards to the pin with right half of fairway blocked by a small ridge with bushes and tall grasses 110 yards out.  I can't reach the green in one.  4 iron would get me close to the green, 7 iron and I'll be 50 yards out.  Decision time.  I have a 100 yard wedge and chose to play that way.  Shot two is 100 yards just short of ridge.  Shot three 100 yards next to the pin.  Putt in for my first birdie on a par 5.

So yeah, splitting a given distance with two shots of the same club can work.  Is it the best course management for everyone.  Nah, I don't believe anyone ever said it was.  But to say it isn't a good option is just a wee bit short sighted in my opinion.

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#88 GMR

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:05 AM

View Postom18v, on 20 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

My last post with an opinion on the 50/50 split with the same club and why I believe it can be a good option.

Today's round gives me a chance to make a decision on how to approach an opportunity for par.  This is a short par 5, 435 yard dogleg left (forward tees).  Bunker 200 yards out in the center of fairway about 20 yards before dogleg with fairway sloping a bit left and down after bunker.  Pull it left of bunker and you are blocked out by the trees.  Right of the bunker makes it a long shot to the green or if too far right you are in the edge of the woods.

Normally I tee off with 3 wood and play short and right of the bunker.  Today I'm swinging the driver well so I aim directly at the bunker hoping to carry.  Hit an awesome 235 yard drive, with roll, right over the center of the bunker with down and left roll to center of fairway.  I'm 200 yards to the pin with right half of fairway blocked by a small ridge with bushes and tall grasses 110 yards out.  I can't reach the green in one.  4 iron would get me close to the green, 7 iron and I'll be 50 yards out.  Decision time.  I have a 100 yard wedge and chose to play that way.  Shot two is 100 yards just short of ridge.  Shot three 100 yards next to the pin.  Putt in for my first birdie on a par 5.

So yeah, splitting a given distance with two shots of the same club can work.  Is it the best course management for everyone.  Nah, I don't believe anyone ever said it was.  But to say it isn't a good option is just a wee bit short sighted in my opinion.
In your case you just happened to split the difference. What you really did, however, is lay up to a comfortable approach distance, which I don't think many would find all the contentious. However, just because it worked once doesn't make it the best strategy necessarily.  If you can get your 4i greenside from 200 then over the long haul you are probably more likely to score better hitting that, unless you are prone to occasionally duff it or shank it OB.  A terrible strike with the 4i still goes 100 likely leaving you with the same approach you had this time, while a decent one means two putts or a chip and a putt for birdie. Even one that badly misses short sided or into a bunker should leave you a shot you can get onto the green and two putt for par. On the other hand your likelihood of making birdie from 100 out is probably 1 or MAYBE 2 in 10, and any mishit with that second wedge brings bogey into play.

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#89 QEight

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:08 AM

View PostGMR, on 21 April 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 20 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

My last post with an opinion on the 50/50 split with the same club and why I believe it can be a good option.

Today's round gives me a chance to make a decision on how to approach an opportunity for par.  This is a short par 5, 435 yard dogleg left (forward tees).  Bunker 200 yards out in the center of fairway about 20 yards before dogleg with fairway sloping a bit left and down after bunker.  Pull it left of bunker and you are blocked out by the trees.  Right of the bunker makes it a long shot to the green or if too far right you are in the edge of the woods.

Normally I tee off with 3 wood and play short and right of the bunker.  Today I'm swinging the driver well so I aim directly at the bunker hoping to carry.  Hit an awesome 235 yard drive, with roll, right over the center of the bunker with down and left roll to center of fairway.  I'm 200 yards to the pin with right half of fairway blocked by a small ridge with bushes and tall grasses 110 yards out.  I can't reach the green in one.  4 iron would get me close to the green, 7 iron and I'll be 50 yards out.  Decision time.  I have a 100 yard wedge and chose to play that way.  Shot two is 100 yards just short of ridge.  Shot three 100 yards next to the pin.  Putt in for my first birdie on a par 5.

So yeah, splitting a given distance with two shots of the same club can work.  Is it the best course management for everyone.  Nah, I don't believe anyone ever said it was.  But to say it isn't a good option is just a wee bit short sighted in my opinion.
In your case you just happened to split the difference. What you really did, however, is lay up to a comfortable approach distance, which I don't think many would find all the contentious. However, just because it worked once doesn't make it the best strategy necessarily.  If you can get your 4i greenside from 200 then over the long haul you are probably more likely to score better hitting that, unless you are prone to occasionally duff it or shank it OB.  A terrible strike with the 4i still goes 100 likely leaving you with the same approach you had this time, while a decent one means two putts or a chip and a putt for birdie. Even one that badly misses short sided or into a bunker should leave you a shot you can get onto the green and two putt for par. On the other hand your likelihood of making birdie from 100 out is probably 1 or MAYBE 2 in 10, and any mishit with that second wedge brings bogey into play.

And hitting an awesome drive off the tee sort of broke the original 7i, 7i, 7i... rule.


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#90 oikos1

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:17 AM

View PostQEight, on 21 April 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

View PostGMR, on 21 April 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

View Postom18v, on 20 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

My last post with an opinion on the 50/50 split with the same club and why I believe it can be a good option.

Today's round gives me a chance to make a decision on how to approach an opportunity for par.  This is a short par 5, 435 yard dogleg left (forward tees).  Bunker 200 yards out in the center of fairway about 20 yards before dogleg with fairway sloping a bit left and down after bunker.  Pull it left of bunker and you are blocked out by the trees.  Right of the bunker makes it a long shot to the green or if too far right you are in the edge of the woods.

Normally I tee off with 3 wood and play short and right of the bunker.  Today I'm swinging the driver well so I aim directly at the bunker hoping to carry.  Hit an awesome 235 yard drive, with roll, right over the center of the bunker with down and left roll to center of fairway.  I'm 200 yards to the pin with right half of fairway blocked by a small ridge with bushes and tall grasses 110 yards out.  I can't reach the green in one.  4 iron would get me close to the green, 7 iron and I'll be 50 yards out.  Decision time.  I have a 100 yard wedge and chose to play that way.  Shot two is 100 yards just short of ridge.  Shot three 100 yards next to the pin.  Putt in for my first birdie on a par 5.

So yeah, splitting a given distance with two shots of the same club can work.  Is it the best course management for everyone.  Nah, I don't believe anyone ever said it was.  But to say it isn't a good option is just a wee bit short sighted in my opinion.
In your case you just happened to split the difference. What you really did, however, is lay up to a comfortable approach distance, which I don't think many would find all the contentious. However, just because it worked once doesn't make it the best strategy necessarily.  If you can get your 4i greenside from 200 then over the long haul you are probably more likely to score better hitting that, unless you are prone to occasionally duff it or shank it OB.  A terrible strike with the 4i still goes 100 likely leaving you with the same approach you had this time, while a decent one means two putts or a chip and a putt for birdie. Even one that badly misses short sided or into a bunker should leave you a shot you can get onto the green and two putt for par. On the other hand your likelihood of making birdie from 100 out is probably 1 or MAYBE 2 in 10, and any mishit with that second wedge brings bogey into play.

And hitting an awesome drive off the tee sort of broke the original 7i, 7i, 7i... rule.
Lol. Yes it does.


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