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Is my driver face too open on the downswing? Push slice, pull hook

driver pushslice

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#1 stugolf

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:40 AM

Hi,

I'm struggling with two shots with my driver:

1: Push slice (30 yards right then curve right) and,
2: Pull draw (starts 10 yards left of target line then curves that again)

Swing: https://www.youtube....h?v=TUAmemVEqIM

My analysis is the following:

At the top my clubface is slightly shut but then kind of gets open on the downswing which makes me work really hard to square the clubface on time, so it can either be a push or pull.

I think that it could be due to the forces in transition cupping my lead wrist and making me lose a good grip on the club. I also always wear a hole quickly in the heel pad of glove.

------

My ideas:
The solution in my head would be to feel like I have less wrist c0ck at the top and have a tighter grip on the club and or perhaps feel like the wrist is bowing more at the top or on the downswing?

What do you guys think?

Edited by stugolf, 16 April 2018 - 07:52 AM.


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#2 Lord Helmet

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:47 AM

View Poststugolf, on 16 April 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

I also always wear a hole quickly in the heel pad of glove.



Im not a teacher, but I have always heard that if you wear a hole in the glove (heel pad for you) then you are perhaps holding the club incorrectly with that hand.  Google it - see what you come up with, but I am thinking your grip is too much in the palm of that hand.  G luck.
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#3 stugolf

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:21 AM

View PostLord Helmet, on 16 April 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 16 April 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

I also always wear a hole quickly in the heel pad of glove.



Im not a teacher, but I have always heard that if you wear a hole in the glove (heel pad for you) then you are perhaps holding the club incorrectly with that hand.  Google it - see what you come up with, but I am thinking your grip is too much in the palm of that hand.  G luck.

Had a check of my grip and it seems to be in the fingers... wondering if I just need to focus on keeping my pinkie and second to last finger a bit tighter.

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#4 IcemanYVR

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:56 AM

grip the club like you're holding a baby chicken. That's about the max grip pressure you should try to have. The club won't come out of your hand.
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#5 Tro

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:15 PM

Obviously not a pro either, but I have the same pattern on my glove/left hand.
What I've found is that the harder you pull on the handle - the harder it is to close the club face.  It's opposing forces at work.

Try feeling like the the club goes weightless while you are turning, the feeling of leaving the hands back.  You will find that the club face becomes easier to close.  Then, by P6 or so, certainly after the transition, your grip can tighten up.  Your face should be in a better position by then.


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#6 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:17 PM

Need to do the reverse motorcycle either end backswing or transition.

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#7 Lord Helmet

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:39 PM

View Postglk, on 16 April 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Need to do the reverse motorcycle either end backswing or transition.

What is that?
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#8 Tro

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:42 PM

View PostLord Helmet, on 16 April 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 16 April 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Need to do the reverse motorcycle either end backswing or transition.

What is that?

Bowing the left wrist.
"reverse motorcycle" is the opposite of a real motorcycle's throttle action.

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#9 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:43 PM

View PostLord Helmet, on 16 April 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postglk, on 16 April 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Need to do the reverse motorcycle either end backswing or transition.

What is that?
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=-XyxoQk6CP4

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#10 fore_life

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:47 PM

I don’t the grip is the culprit, look at impact, extension with no tilt

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#11 stugolf

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:01 PM

View Postfore_life, on 16 April 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don’t the grip is the culprit, look at impact, extension with no tilt

I think the early extension is from me flipping because I have to close the face late...

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#12 stugolf

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:03 PM

The motor cycle looks like its going to work.  

Just to confirm with you guys - is my clubface too open on the downswing?

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#13 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 16 April 2018 - 02:07 PM.


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#14 stugolf

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:03 PM

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

I'm thinking that feel like less wrist c0ck at the top will help with overswing and then the motor cycle drill to shallow the club and square the face? Do you think my clubface is open on the way down?

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#15 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:23 PM

View Poststugolf, on 16 April 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

I'm thinking that feel like less wrist c0ck at the top will help with overswing and then the motor cycle drill to shallow the club and square the face? Do you think my clubface is open on the way down?
With the overswing, what will help is feeling like you stop the backswing when your left arm is parallel to the ground and also getting the right arm extended more.
It's going to feel very strange. But check it on video and see where you're at. I think you might be surprised. This will probably work for you, but not everyone is the same.

Your grip and wrist position at the top won't necessarily get you shallow. You need to actively feel like you leave the hands/arms alone when you're initially making the downswing. If the face is open, your body will naturally do something to square it up - which is not what we want.

As far as clubface control. If the face is open, you can either supinate more (reverse motorcycle) get a stronger grip, or both. But by P-6 you need to check that club face and make sure its in line with the spine angle.

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 16 April 2018 - 03:38 PM.


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#16 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:04 PM

View Poststugolf, on 16 April 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

I'm thinking that feel like less wrist c0ck at the top will help with overswing and then the motor cycle drill to shallow the club and square the face? Do you think my clubface is open on the way down?

Square at top:
Posted Image

Open at P6:
Posted Image

Agree that a little reverse motorcycle (left wrist flexion) somewhere between P4-P6 might do the trick for you, and let you stay in posture and rotate instead of standing up and flipping to square the face. It helps me with the same problem.

BTW, when viewing a YouTube video (in Chrome at least), you can press K to pause, then "," and "." (comma and period) to go one frame back or ahead, respectively. Handy when looking at things like face angle. Finally, as a side note, the fps of your video camera is just borderline useful for looking at face angle at P6. Use 120 or 240 fps if possible (like recent iPhones and higher-end Androids offer).

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#17 yellowballs

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:20 PM

View PostRattlesnakeRon, on 16 April 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 16 April 2018 - 03:03 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

I'm thinking that feel like less wrist c0ck at the top will help with overswing and then the motor cycle drill to shallow the club and square the face? Do you think my clubface is open on the way down?

Square at top:
Posted Image

Open at P6:
Posted Image

Agree that a little reverse motorcycle (left wrist flexion) somewhere between P4-P6 might do the trick for you, and let you stay in posture and rotate instead of standing up and flipping to square the face. It helps me with the same problem.

BTW, when viewing a YouTube video (in Chrome at least), you can press K to pause, then "," and "." (comma and period) to go one frame back or ahead, respectively. Handy when looking at things like face angle. Finally, as a side note, the fps of your video camera is just borderline useful for looking at face angle at P6. Use 120 or 240 fps if possible (like recent iPhones and higher-end Androids offer).
Good frames.  Wonder what OP is doing (or not doing) that gets the face open at P6?

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#18 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you’ll see you’re horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

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#19 jdang307

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:15 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.
When you say left, you mean left as we are viewing the video down the line?   Basically looking at the video, club needs to point more <-----

And the getting into the heels will help stop him standing up (losing a lot of his forward bend) at impact?

Just trying to learn this stuff so when I video my own swing I can try and diagnose :D

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#20 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:18 PM

Yes


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#21 stugolf

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 02:28 PM

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

Makes total sense BUT I can't do it!

When I do try to get the right hip up and back (tried it a few times over the years) it makes my right leg straighten, I get an inside takeaway, too much body turn, over swing and even more across the line. Also the right leg never gets its bend back on the downswing.

I sometimes feel like my body shape prevents me from getting that position - short legs, small waist, long torso.

Edited by stugolf, 17 April 2018 - 02:31 PM.


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#22 jut111

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 04:25 PM

Not a pro - (listen to Monte) but one thing that helped me greatly with getting my right hip deeper properly was more left side bend in the backswing.  Would help to see face on, but that turn looks pretty flat which tells me you don't have much.

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#23 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 06:25 PM

View Poststugolf, on 17 April 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

Makes total sense BUT I can't do it!

When I do try to get the right hip up and back (tried it a few times over the years) it makes my right leg straighten, I get an inside takeaway, too much body turn, over swing and even more across the line. Also the right leg never gets its bend back on the downswing.

I sometimes feel like my body shape prevents me from getting that position - short legs, small waist, long torso.


Right knee is supposed to lose flex and if your over rotating it’s because the pelvis is moving toward the target.

You don’t have near enough pressure in right heel.  Not gonna be able to fix what you want to fix until you fix that...plus the wrist angles at the top.

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#24 stugolf

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 02:44 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 17 April 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

Makes total sense BUT I can't do it!

When I do try to get the right hip up and back (tried it a few times over the years) it makes my right leg straighten, I get an inside takeaway, too much body turn, over swing and even more across the line. Also the right leg never gets its bend back on the downswing.

I sometimes feel like my body shape prevents me from getting that position - short legs, small waist, long torso.

Right knee is supposed to lose flex and if your over rotating it's because the pelvis is moving toward the target.

You don't have near enough pressure in right heel.  Not gonna be able to fix what you want to fix until you fix that...plus the wrist angles at the top.

UPDATE!  Now what???

So I went out and tried to close the face at the top by motorcycling it but I just couldn't get my wrist to bow! So i'm presuming there are some serious forces working on my wrists at the top.

However I did re-visit what Monte said (should have worked on that straight away!) and tried to get the right hip higher in the backswing whilst also trying to steepen my shoulder plane.

In swing number 1 below, it feels like I'm making a tiny shoulder turn (feels like i'm keeping it where it is at the start!) and small arm swing that point way left field.

Swing number 2 is where I always spring back to!

My current problem is that I seem to get in a better position in swing number 2 but it kind of makes me come over the top

Swing 1 - deeper higher hip with steeper shoulder turn BUT now coming over the top (pulls and straight weak shots that fade of to the right:  https://www.youtube....h?v=J-S0c4YDhzo

Swing 2 - my normal massive over turn swing what I'm constantly fighting! :https://www.youtube....h?v=gTZqdRB9qw0

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#25 Hilts1969

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:15 PM

View Poststugolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 17 April 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

Makes total sense BUT I can't do it!

When I do try to get the right hip up and back (tried it a few times over the years) it makes my right leg straighten, I get an inside takeaway, too much body turn, over swing and even more across the line. Also the right leg never gets its bend back on the downswing.

I sometimes feel like my body shape prevents me from getting that position - short legs, small waist, long torso.

Right knee is supposed to lose flex and if your over rotating it's because the pelvis is moving toward the target.

You don't have near enough pressure in right heel.  Not gonna be able to fix what you want to fix until you fix that...plus the wrist angles at the top.

UPDATE!  Now what???

So I went out and tried to close the face at the top by motorcycling it but I just couldn't get my wrist to bow! So i'm presuming there are some serious forces working on my wrists at the top.

However I did re-visit what Monte said (should have worked on that straight away!) and tried to get the right hip higher in the backswing whilst also trying to steepen my shoulder plane.

In swing number 1 below, it feels like I'm making a tiny shoulder turn (feels like i'm keeping it where it is at the start!) and small arm swing that point way left field.

Swing number 2 is where I always spring back to!

My current problem is that I seem to get in a better position in swing number 2 but it kind of makes me come over the top

Swing 1 - deeper higher hip with steeper shoulder turn BUT now coming over the top (pulls and straight weak shots that fade of to the right:  https://www.youtube....h?v=J-S0c4YDhzo

Swing 2 - my normal massive over turn swing what I'm constantly fighting! :https://www.youtube....h?v=gTZqdRB9qw0

Welcome to my personal hell mate in fact a steep yank with a cupped left wrist has been discussed on here for years.


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#26 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 06:12 AM

View Poststugolf, on 10 May 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 17 April 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

View PostNikeGolferTX, on 16 April 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hips are too level and you pull on the handle. Backswing too long as well.

Club-face control is irrelevant until you get those under control because you're still going to have the same symptoms (Push slice/draw) because you require too much timing and manipulation. Your shaft is bisecting the shoulder by p-5 so even if the face was perfect, you're still going to have to fight to shallow the club and time it.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 17 April 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

For starters, right hip needs to work up and back a lot more.  Get on a pressure mat and you'll see you're horribly in the right toes at the top.  Need to get into heel.

Then get your wrists in a position where the club points more left at the top.  

Those two things will solve a lot of problems.

Makes total sense BUT I can't do it!

When I do try to get the right hip up and back (tried it a few times over the years) it makes my right leg straighten, I get an inside takeaway, too much body turn, over swing and even more across the line. Also the right leg never gets its bend back on the downswing.

I sometimes feel like my body shape prevents me from getting that position - short legs, small waist, long torso.

Right knee is supposed to lose flex and if your over rotating it's because the pelvis is moving toward the target.

You don't have near enough pressure in right heel.  Not gonna be able to fix what you want to fix until you fix that...plus the wrist angles at the top.

UPDATE!  Now what???

So I went out and tried to close the face at the top by motorcycling it but I just couldn't get my wrist to bow! So i'm presuming there are some serious forces working on my wrists at the top.

However I did re-visit what Monte said (should have worked on that straight away!) and tried to get the right hip higher in the backswing whilst also trying to steepen my shoulder plane.

In swing number 1 below, it feels like I'm making a tiny shoulder turn (feels like i'm keeping it where it is at the start!) and small arm swing that point way left field.

Swing number 2 is where I always spring back to!

My current problem is that I seem to get in a better position in swing number 2 but it kind of makes me come over the top

Swing 1 - deeper higher hip with steeper shoulder turn BUT now coming over the top (pulls and straight weak shots that fade of to the right:  https://www.youtube....h?v=J-S0c4YDhzo

Swing 2 - my normal massive over turn swing what I'm constantly fighting! :https://www.youtube....h?v=gTZqdRB9qw0
You are in a better position in swing #1.      Remember changing your backswing to have a better pivot doesn't address anything in your transition/downswing.    With you way across the line swing, #2, you have to pull the handle early to get that club back in front of you - it has a long way to travel.    In #1, it doesn't need to move so far but your brain is still doing the same thing.     Doesn't work as well.     So your transition also needs to start to change - you need to do the left shoulder down move, ie start to regain flexion in transition, while shallowing your arms.   Right now you pretty much start with an arm pull and your body begins to stand up immediately in the downswing.   In your old swing you were already standing up since your turn was so flat - your brain is seeking to get back into the position it's used to for you to hit the ball.    If you stop both videos at impact you'll see your body position is pretty close to
identical.    Long story short, to take advantage of your better backswing position you need to improve your transition otherwise your brain will do what it's used to doing.   Golf is hard.
Good luck.

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#27 stugolf

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:00 AM

That sounds like it makes sense @glk - can you elaborate on the left shoulder down in transition move?

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#28 glk

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    send it in jerome

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:52 AM

View Poststugolf, on 12 May 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

That sounds like it makes sense @glk - can you elaborate on the left shoulder down in transition move?
See this thread.   http://www.golfwrx.c...-in-transition/

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#29 MPStrat

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:51 PM

View Poststugolf, on 12 May 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

That sounds like it makes sense @glk - can you elaborate on the left shoulder down in transition move?

Essentially, you never regain flexion in transition. You spin back and spin through. Lead shoulder down is one way to do it. This is another:



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#30 Hilts1969

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 02:13 PM

View PostMPStrat, on 12 May 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

View Poststugolf, on 12 May 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

That sounds like it makes sense @glk - can you elaborate on the left shoulder down in transition move?

Essentially, you never regain flexion in transition. You spin back and spin through. Lead shoulder down is one way to do it. This is another:



Nice swing that and good info I would like to see the first swing trying to push head forward, butt back, elbow forward, forearm back though. Left tilt with shallowing not easy.



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