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The traditional PGA Tour model of professional golf is dead. Time for change...


131 replies to this topic

#31 Terry Gold

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:45 AM

Christ.  Between the embarrassingly absurd fantasy scenarios, unsubstantiated arguments, and shameless conjecture, I'm f'ing done here.
Tour Talk has officially hit rock bottom.  The bar can be set no lower than this.
Maybe that was your intention. If so, well done, mjen43.  
Yours,
TG
(PS: best of luck Hawkeye)


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#32 hell_is_chrome

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:08 AM

It's almost like op thinks that tournaments going without a sponsor is a new thing that has never happened before in the history of the tour, even after title sponsorships were the norm (Colonial in 1995, The Heritage in 2011 for example).

There are plenty of examples of tournaments scrambling to get sponsorship last minute. There are plenty of examples of a tournament not getting sponsorship and disappearing. This is a temporary blip. If the tour is unable to get title sponsorship for a tournament for more than 1 year that tournament will just disappear. The tour will not revamp its structure because the tour IS THE PLAYERS. THEY own it, they don't play for an owner.

Edited by hell_is_chrome, 16 April 2018 - 02:11 AM.


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#33 mjen43

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:19 AM

View Posthell_is_chrome, on 16 April 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

The tour will not revamp its structure because the tour IS THE PLAYERS. THEY own it, they don't play for an owner.

I get that. Thatís why I proposed a new model.

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#34 Kenny Lee Puckett

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:38 AM

sorry, all I could envision is the asshats who yell 'mashed potatoes' would now also be wearing a Rickie Fowler jersey.
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#35 hell_is_chrome

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:46 AM

View Postmjen43, on 16 April 2018 - 02:19 AM, said:

View Posthell_is_chrome, on 16 April 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

The tour will not revamp its structure because the tour IS THE PLAYERS. THEY own it, they don't play for an owner.

I get that. That’s why I proposed a new model.

For this "new model" the tour would have to fold up entirely. Not happening.


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#36 bladehunter

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:50 AM

Possibly the most far fetched post ever on tour talk.  And Iíve lived through jones Scott.  Two bouts of tiger drama , phil and the feds and latest Patrick reed soap opera.  Good grief OP. Why would you wish  our sport turned into the nfl ?  Literally the worst sport on earth.

Edited by bladehunter, 16 April 2018 - 05:51 AM.

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#37 ray9898

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:23 AM

I'm not sure if this is a real post of just a lengthy troll.

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#38 chunksb1b

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:34 AM

Sounds a lot like Shotmakers?  Maybe forgo traditional scoring as well?  Who wouldnít want to see Team SB2K18 v Team Big Break in Bingo/Bango/Bongo?

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#39 raynorfan1

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:37 AM

View Postmjen43, on 16 April 2018 - 02:19 AM, said:

View Posthell_is_chrome, on 16 April 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

The tour will not revamp its structure because the tour IS THE PLAYERS. THEY own it, they don't play for an owner.

I get that. That's why I proposed a new model.

Why would (good) players ever trade a model where they keep 100% of the proceeds for one where "billionaire owners" take the profit and pay them a salary?

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#40 MaxF1

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:48 AM

Professional bowling tried that concept in 1961 with the National Bowling League. It lasted one or two seasons. Golf and bowling are individual sports and that's what most people want to see.


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#41 williamsnrb

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:07 AM

View Postmjen43, on 15 April 2018 - 10:11 PM, said:

View PostAaronwilson_95, on 15 April 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:

Lots of stuff

I donít see any reason why players would lose out on corporate endorsements just because of a jersey and a team. Athletes of every sport have endorsement deals with all kinds of companies. Just slap a logo on your jersey if you want to rep your sponsor during actual play. The NBA and soccer do it. Not really a concern IMO.

Players would be drafted from anywhere. It would be up to the team scouts to find the best players and up to the players to demonstrate their value/market themselves. Golf doesnít even need an age limit due to itís non physical nature. Declare for the draft whenever you want. If you are worthy the scouts will find you, just like every sport. They could even have minor league teams if they like.

No players of any other sport are drafted based off of team success. I donít understand your point. Just because it is a team game doesnít mean you canít evaluate individual talent within that team.

I donít think it would be too difficult to attract top tier talent. Golfers donít really make that much in on course earnings anyways. <b>It would likely only take a 4-5 year deal for $20-30 million to nab someone like Spieth anyways.</b> Thatís chump change for modern day sports team owners. In a career year he makes like what, $8 million max? He makes most of his money off course anyways and we established that wouldnít be an issue. The safety of a long-term contract would no doubt entice top players.

As for what to pay rookies/young talent, if you offered someone like Braden Thornberry/Doug Ghim/Justin Suh a 3 year deal worth $2-4 million theyíd be a fool to not take it. With the landscape of professional golf, and how difficult it is to make it, I see no reason why they wouldnít take this deal coming out of college over trying their luck on the PGA Tour. If they perform on that deal, they can then cash in on the next one. For less heralded prospects it would be even less. You could probably entice someone who is ranked 50 on WAGR to sign for 50k/year to start. These types of guys take years to reach the tour, if at all. Provide them with a place to play and some guaranteed income and no doubt theyíd accept.

No doubt it would take a significant initial investment, but guys like Bob Parsons, Steph Curry, Trump, Tiger, Phil, etc. would be very well positioned to provide the initial capital required to get the league off the ground.

All total, Jordan Spieth made $52.8 million dollars last YEAR.

Although interesting to think about, I don't see this ever happening. I'm not sure I would be interested in it, either. I live in a city with several pro teams and I rarely go to any games. Not that I don't care about other sports, but golf is my first love. And one aspect of it that I enjoy so much is the individuality.

Edited by williamsnrb, 16 April 2018 - 07:09 AM.

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#42 cxx

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:29 AM

View Postchunksb1b, on 16 April 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

Sounds a lot like Shotmakers?  Maybe forgo traditional scoring as well?  Who wouldn't want to see Team SB2K18 v Team Big Break in Bingo/Bango/Bongo?

My guess is we'll never see that again after this season.

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#43 Aaronwilson_95

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:09 AM

View Postmjen43, on 16 April 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

View PostAaronwilson_95, on 16 April 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

View Postmjen43, on 16 April 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

View PostAaronwilson_95, on 16 April 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:


My school has loads off people attend the soccer games and volleyball games including professors. How come when we have an event two highways exits away itís pulling teeth to even get parents to watch let alone fans . And thatís a ďteam aspectĒ and people they teach everyday and hang out with in there free time so people they care about and have an interest in

Good question. Maybe because golf is boring as hell to watch at the non-elite level, takes 12 hours (36 hole college days) to play and takes considerable effort to follow (walking). Probably just inherent aspects of the game make for poor viewing, if I had to say.
And thus answers your question off why team golf wonít succeed.

It does? I donít think so. Itís not like people would be showing up to college golf tournaments if it was individual play.

View Postmjen43, on 15 April 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

. Combined with growing interest in team related golf activities (NCAA, Ryder and Presidents cup, New Orleans tournament), it would appear that professional golf could be positioned to transform itself into a more traditional sports organization/association/league based model.

You yourself said thereís a rapid increasing interest in NCAA golf while also saying itís ďboring as hell ď

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#44 ExTrumpet

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:17 AM

I clicked on this thread to see some golf models...and there are none.

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#45 The Pearl

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:39 AM

So here is the logic,  "the tour is losing sponsors for tournaments so said sponsors will instead pony up for team golf."


Maybe Jack can get this off the ground with 12 hole rounds and giant holes.


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#46 JaNelson38

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:39 AM

View Postmjen43, on 15 April 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

With the rapid deceleration of corporate investment in the PGA Tour......

....Golf is really only an individual sport at the professional level. At the high school and college level it is a team sport. With the decline of the PGA Tour and golf as a whole, it is time for change. A shift to a more traditional league/owner/team model would provide the spark the game needs. Please add your thoughts.

Dont be ridiculous.  Golf is an individual sport at EVERY level.  While there is some team focus at the high school and university level, individual achievement is always celebrated alongside the team accomplishment as far as golf goes.  For example...very few remember that Illinois won the 2015 NCAA team Championships, but most golf fans know that Bryson DeChambeau won the 2015 NCAA individual title.

The deceleration of corporate investment in the PGA Tour is due pretty much because of two things:

1)The business climate in America has sucked for a decade now.  Unless you're connected to Wall Street, health care, or government operations, you havent made much money at all in the last 10 years

2) Purses have gotten too big on the PGA Tour

When companies are struggling to just make a profit, they're not gonna fork over millions to sponsor a PGA Tour event.  If I was a marketing guy for a company that has been working hard to just break even or make a modest profit, I'd have a hard time going to my boss saying that investing $10 million in a sporting event that, while nationally televised is going to draw low ratings, is a good business decision.

NASCAR is facing the same troubles right now.  They've faced declining ratings and a lowering of corporate sponsorship in the past few years, and in response they played with and completely changed the system of how their sport was built - most specifically changing the structure of races, how they determine who the series champion is, and changing what venues they visit.  The result as of now is that NASCAR has alienated and pissed off its loyal base their sport was built on, and it now has some of its lowest attendance figures in history and they dont even have a corporate sponsor for their series after 2019.  My point being is that golf is not the only sport to be facing this issue right now, but the solutions to that issue is not to just blow it up, start something new and different, and then expect that to suddenly change things overnight.

Shave the purses by a few million in each event so that a sponsor doesnt have to fork over $10 million+ to sponsor an event, and you'd see corporate entities come back to the sport.  But right now there is just no return on investment for that kind of money.  Either that or start allowing corporate America to actually make money again without being vilified or being made to think they are doing something wrong my our media, politicians, and the public in general.

Edited by JaNelson38, 16 April 2018 - 08:49 AM.


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#47 raynorfan1

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:50 AM

View PostJaNelson38, on 16 April 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

When companies are struggling to just make a profit, they're not gonna fork over millions to sponsor a PGA Tour event.  If I was a marketing guy for a company that has been working hard to just break even or make a modest profit, I'd have a hard time going to my boss saying that investing $10 million in a sporting event that, while nationally televised is going to draw low ratings, is a good business decision.

IMO if there is a problem (and I'm not sure there is) it's because the "ask" for the title sponsorship has just gotten too high to justify.

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#48 JaNelson38

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:59 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 16 April 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:



IMO if there is a problem (and I'm not sure there is) it's because the "ask" for the title sponsorship has just gotten too high to justify.

Right, and that's due largely to the purse structure the PGA Tour demands.  Most purses for the good Tour events are at least $6-7 million, and the sponsor usually has to put up a good share of that money.  Every non-opposite field event on the PGA Tour makes the winner a millionaire.  Its ridiculous.  The demands of sponsors has risen from year to year, with the largest costs going directly to purses.  

I mean, I shudder to think what a true tournament cost would be to a tournament sponsor if they didnt have hundreds of volunteers at each event.

Gotta remember that for a lot of these sponsors, these are supposed to be events that allow them to raise and distribute money for charity.  If they can't do it, or do it at the levels that the need to for their corporate expenditures, it makes absolutely no fiscal sense to even get involved.

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#49 DatSliceDoe

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:38 AM

OP should sell this idea to Bob Parsons for a few million and see if he can make it happen. Can't wait to see the advertisements for the GoDaddy.com Long $ Drive $ Putt $ For $ Dough Team Grand Slammin' championship.

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#50 Bad9

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:44 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 16 April 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

So here is the logic,  "the tour is losing sponsors for tournaments so said sponsors will instead pony up for team golf."


Maybe Jack can get this off the ground with 12 hole rounds and giant holes.

And a short ball

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#51 The Pearl

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:12 AM

View PostJaNelson38, on 16 April 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 16 April 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

IMO if there is a problem (and I'm not sure there is) it's because the "ask" for the title sponsorship has just gotten too high to justify.

Right, and that's due largely to the purse structure the PGA Tour demands.  Most purses for the good Tour events are at least $6-7 million, and the sponsor usually has to put up a good share of that money.  Every non-opposite field event on the PGA Tour makes the winner a millionaire.  Its ridiculous.  The demands of sponsors has risen from year to year, with the largest costs going directly to purses.  

I mean, I shudder to think what a true tournament cost would be to a tournament sponsor if they didnt have hundreds of volunteers at each event.

Gotta remember that for a lot of these sponsors, these are supposed to be events that allow them to raise and distribute money for charity.  If they can't do it, or do it at the levels that the need to for their corporate expenditures, it makes absolutely no fiscal sense to even get involved.

These companies aren't mom and pop operations that are sponsoring the tour.  They are the biggest corporations in the world. $10 million is nothing.  This week's sponsor Valero had $26 Billion in revenues last quarter.

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#52 The Pearl

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:26 AM

View Postmjen43, on 15 April 2018 - 11:03 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 15 April 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

View Postmjen43, on 15 April 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 15 April 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

Fantasy land - and not the first time almost those exact suggestions have been made on here, so not sure if recycled or borrowed, but the premise is incorrect and the "solutions" just plain silly - golf is still an individual sport and there is no significant movement to "team" competitions.  NCAA is a minor blip on the radar screen for 99% of the viewing public, including people that watch golf and the President's Cup is hardly driving any trend bus.  New Orleans?  Who cares.  Ryder Cup is unique.  Local golf team?  LOL.

Billionaires who earned their money didn't make it being stupid.

Why are title sponsors backing out of golf? Off the top of my head there is/was no sponsor for Mexico/Houston and Colonial this year. This is a new problem; the landscape has changed. Fans only want to watch approximately 10-20 players. Change is coming.

Don't know, why are they?  You don't have enough experience, information or expertise to analyze it, that much is obvious, and no, not the first time nor the last that events change sponsors for any number of reasons so not "new".

This isn't a "change" of sponsors, this is a "lack" of sponsors. It's only a matter of time before only the majors can find corporate support at this rate.

I never claimed to be an expert. This is just my solution to bring the spark back to the game and align the game with a proven method of professional sports entertainment/consumption.

Dean and Deluca pulled out of Colonial.  American Airlines, ATT, XTO Energy and Burlington Northern Santa Fe stepped right in.  You are basing your entire idea on a problem that does not exist.

Edited by The Pearl, 16 April 2018 - 11:27 AM.


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#53 gvogel

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:33 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 16 April 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostJaNelson38, on 16 April 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 16 April 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

IMO if there is a problem (and I'm not sure there is) it's because the "ask" for the title sponsorship has just gotten too high to justify.

Right, and that's due largely to the purse structure the PGA Tour demands.  Most purses for the good Tour events are at least $6-7 million, and the sponsor usually has to put up a good share of that money.  Every non-opposite field event on the PGA Tour makes the winner a millionaire.  Its ridiculous.  The demands of sponsors has risen from year to year, with the largest costs going directly to purses.  

I mean, I shudder to think what a true tournament cost would be to a tournament sponsor if they didnt have hundreds of volunteers at each event.

Gotta remember that for a lot of these sponsors, these are supposed to be events that allow them to raise and distribute money for charity.  If they can't do it, or do it at the levels that the need to for their corporate expenditures, it makes absolutely no fiscal sense to even get involved.

These companies aren't mom and pop operations that are sponsoring the tour.  They are the biggest corporations in the world. $10 million is nothing.  This week's sponsor Valero had $26 Billion in revenues last quarter.

That is not entirely correct.  Bridgestone, which is a very big company, just backed out of the event in Akron.  At some point the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

The event at Colonial has been having a tough time with sponsors.  So, there is a bit of a problem with sponsors going forward.  As mentioned above, that is probably because the purses have gotten too rich.

But team golf would be a really bad idea.
On Sundays, I used to play hickory

23

#54 JaNelson38

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

View PostThe Pearl, on 16 April 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

These companies aren't mom and pop operations that are sponsoring the tour.  They are the biggest corporations in the world. $10 million is nothing.  This week's sponsor Valero had $26 Billion in revenues last quarter.

These corporations dont look at money that way.  That's why they are as big and successful as they are.  $10+ million is still $10+ million.  These companies all still want a return on their investment.

A really big lure to get Valero to sign their most recent sponsorship deal was the schedule move to a week before the Masters starting in 2019.

I mean, its also not an accident that the company that sponsors the FedEx Cup is gonna now get a WGC event at their home course in Memphis.

These companies, no matter the size, are always looking to maximize their dollars.  In every way possible.

Edited by JaNelson38, 16 April 2018 - 11:45 AM.


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#55 mjen43

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

View PostDatSliceDoe, on 16 April 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

OP should sell this idea to Bob Parsons for a few million and see if he can make it happen. Can't wait to see the advertisements for the GoDaddy.com Long $ Drive $ Putt $ For $ Dough Team Grand Slammin' championship.

No thanks. Iím not in it for the money Iím in it for the good of the game. Thatís why I posted it here for free.


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#56 mjen43

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostAaronwilson_95, on 16 April 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

You yourself said thereís a rapid increasing interest in NCAA golf while also saying itís ďboring as hell ď

Televised NCAA golf (championship/East Lake Cup) is elite play, so it is okay to watch/sleep to.

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#57 The Pearl

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:42 AM

View Postgvogel, on 16 April 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 16 April 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostJaNelson38, on 16 April 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 16 April 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

IMO if there is a problem (and I'm not sure there is) it's because the "ask" for the title sponsorship has just gotten too high to justify.

Right, and that's due largely to the purse structure the PGA Tour demands.  Most purses for the good Tour events are at least $6-7 million, and the sponsor usually has to put up a good share of that money.  Every non-opposite field event on the PGA Tour makes the winner a millionaire.  Its ridiculous.  The demands of sponsors has risen from year to year, with the largest costs going directly to purses.  

I mean, I shudder to think what a true tournament cost would be to a tournament sponsor if they didnt have hundreds of volunteers at each event.

Gotta remember that for a lot of these sponsors, these are supposed to be events that allow them to raise and distribute money for charity.  If they can't do it, or do it at the levels that the need to for their corporate expenditures, it makes absolutely no fiscal sense to even get involved.

These companies aren't mom and pop operations that are sponsoring the tour.  They are the biggest corporations in the world. $10 million is nothing.  This week's sponsor Valero had $26 Billion in revenues last quarter.

That is not entirely correct.  Bridgestone, which is a very big company, just backed out of the event in Akron.  At some point the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

The event at Colonial has been having a tough time with sponsors.  So, there is a bit of a problem with sponsors going forward.  As mentioned above, that is probably because the purses have gotten too rich.

But team golf would be a really bad idea.

It is only a problem if sponsors back out and replacements are not found.  When tournaments start dropping off the schedule and there are multiple open weeks than a problem will exist.  A certain amount of corporate sponsorship churn has always happened and will always happen.  How many of the corporate sponsors in the 60's,70's,80's are even around anymore, let alone still sponsoring tournaments?

The fact that smaller or mid sized companies might be getting priced out of sponsorships for various reasons is nothing new in the sports business world.

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#58 bscinstnct

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:43 AM

Golf will be like,

Posted Image

I like it!

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#59 nichho

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:43 AM

I'm just wondering. From the perspective of a foreigner is this an America centric league or does it include the rest of the world?

Is it the end for the Euro Tour, Asian and Sunshine tours?

Will there be a London Lipouts or will it just be the Chicago Clubs?

Edited by nichho, 16 April 2018 - 11:45 AM.

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#60 The Pearl

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:47 AM

View PostJaNelson38, on 16 April 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

View PostThe Pearl, on 16 April 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

These companies aren't mom and pop operations that are sponsoring the tour.  They are the biggest corporations in the world. $10 million is nothing.  This week's sponsor Valero had $26 Billion in revenues last quarter.

These corporations dont look at money that way.  That's why they are as big and successful as they are.  $10+ million is still $10+ million.  These companies all still want a return on their investment.

A really big lure to get Valero to sign their most recent sponsorship deal was the schedule move to a week before the Masters starting in 2019.

I mean, its also not an accident that the company that sponsors the FedEx Up is gonna now get a WGC event.

These companies, no matter the size, are always looking to maximize their dollars.  In every way possible.

I am well aware why companies sponsor golf tournaments.  You are also missing the point. Until there is a mass exodus in sponsorship, the fact that one company doesn't see the value in sponsorship vs. another one that does is irrelevant.  As long as their are willing sponsors to fill the void than this is a non-issue.


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