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New AMG video suggests you may not have time for a big hip turn


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#1 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and Iím curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because thereís just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



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#2 Sean2

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:37 PM

This is just my own take, but I never think about my hip turn. My only thought is turning my back to the target...I let the hips take care of themselves.
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#3 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:58 PM

 Sean2, on 15 April 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

This is just my own take, but I never think about my hip turn. My only thought is turning my back to the target...I let the hips take care of themselves.

Agreed.

I never once have considered trying to get my hips to turn a certain amount.  They only turn as much as they have to in order to allow a good shoulder turn.

My opinion only....Anyone deliberately thinking about TRYING  to turn their hips is listening to the wrong instructor.
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#4 ebrasmus21

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:08 PM

What I've learned about myself is if my takeaway is correct and if my shoulder turn is solid the hips just naturally follow (agreeing with Sean and Jag).  I don't think about it - it just happens.
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#5 NoHipMove

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:36 PM

Hip turn is vital to my swing. In contrast to my name I must focus on turning my hips back and forward, it drives my whole swing. I hope it becomes automatic like others soon ��


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#6 airjammer

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:12 PM

Complete waste of time watching this video..cliff notes version. Take a pga tour player that isnít named to support whatever agenda the video is about. Give random experiences they have had with students without sharing what they did to help them or what you should do yourself..end of video🤦🏼‍♂️





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#7 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:13 PM

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and Iím curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because thereís just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



Thatís not really what they said.

They didnít say 45, they said 60 which on,y happens with poor and or flat rotation, like when they demonstrated pelvis working toward the target.

And the guy in the video who only rotated 30* had a very short backswing with what looked like 70* of shoulder roation and barely past left arm parallel backswing.  That is pretty standard.  

They never said 45* was bad.  They said over roation is bad, which any competent instructor would agree with...and if the right hip gets deep correctly, over rotation is unlikely...and they talked about that too.

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#8 RattlesnakeRon

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:19 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 15 April 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and Iím curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because thereís just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



Thatís not really what they said.

They didnít say 45, they said 60 which on,y happens with poor and or flat rotation, like when they demonstrated pelvis working toward the target.

And the guy in the video who only rotated 30* had a very short backswing with what looked like 70* of shoulder roation and barely past left arm parallel backswing.  That is pretty standard.  

They never said 45* was bad.  They said over roation is bad, which any competent insrtcutoe would agree with...and if the right hip gets deep correctly, over rotation is unlikely.

Thanks for the insights, Monte. I guess I read too much into their choice of using a model with 30 deg of turn, and concluded it was something which might help us average older dudes whose hips are roughly zero at impact.

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#9 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:52 PM

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 15 April 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and Iím curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because thereís just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



Thatís not really what they said.

They didnít say 45, they said 60 which on,y happens with poor and or flat rotation, like when they demonstrated pelvis working toward the target.

And the guy in the video who only rotated 30* had a very short backswing with what looked like 70* of shoulder roation and barely past left arm parallel backswing.  That is pretty standard.  

They never said 45* was bad.  They said over roation is bad, which any competent insrtcutoe would agree with...and if the right hip gets deep correctly, over rotation is unlikely.

Thanks for the insights, Monte. I guess I read too much into their choice of using a model with 30 deg of turn, and concluded it was something which might help us average older dudes whose hips are roughly zero at impact.

If the average golfer only wants to rotate 70/30 in the backswing, they will be much straighter and consistent.  Problem is they wonít hit it as far as the pro in the video.

What they said I agree with.  You donít want to restrict hip turn, or over rotate.  Those are the poor extremes.  There is a happy medium there and itís  the job of the individual to find that...and the coach to assist in that.

That usually means a free turn correctly.  If te setup is good and the right hip works up and away from the ball and pressure gets in the right heel properly...restriction wonít happen and over rotation is extremely unlikely.

Thatís going to be 70/30 for some and 90/50 for others, depending on body type and flexibility.  

What I can say is I have yet to really see someone who rotated freely (without over rotating) and sequenced decently in transition, that didnít get at least 20 open.

The irony is itís almost universal that free backswing and proper transition feels easier, more athletic and less laborious than what people start with as what feels right to them.

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#10 RichieHunt

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:32 PM

I'm assuming the pro in the video is Joe Durant.  Excellent ballstriker, steep AoA with the driver.  Not very long.  Probably one of the best short hitting ballstrikers in the past 20 years.





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#11 b_f_c_99

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:14 PM

Hey Monte serious question,  how would this explain Bobby Jones and most of the golfers from 100 years ago that appear to have massive amounts of hip turn?  Maybe I’m not hearing what the are saying correctly but it appears to me the are advocating X factor principals, and I know you think that the X factor is poison for generations of golfers.

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#12 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:58 PM

 b_f_c_99, on 15 April 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

Hey Monte serious question,  how would this explain Bobby Jones and most of the golfers from 100 years ago that appear to have massive amounts of hip turn?  Maybe I’m not hearing what the are saying correctly but it appears to me the are advocating X factor principals, and I know you think that the X factor is poison for generations of golfers.

They are not.  They are saying don’t over rotate.  Golfers of 100 years ago were dealing with hickory.  Different move...and they still delivered impact properly.

They specifically said DO NOT restrict...and most golfers can’t over rotate and sequence properly.

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#13 CoiledUP

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:23 AM



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#14 gators78

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:56 AM

 RichieHunt, on 15 April 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'm assuming the pro in the video is Joe Durant.  Excellent ballstriker, steep AoA with the driver.  Not very long.  Probably one of the best short hitting ballstrikers in the past 20 years.





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I mean he's no Dustin Johnson and I also thought he was on the shorter side, but just checked he's averaging 279.3 on the Champions Tour which puts him T26th on distance, ahead of David Toms, Calc, O'Meara, Triplett, and Lehman. Granted they only keep stats for 71 guys, but if you consider his peer class that ain't too shabby.

Edited by gators78, 16 April 2018 - 07:58 AM.

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#15 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:55 AM

Not to get all ĎX-Factoryí, but it seems there would be a YUGE difference between someone who turns their hips/shoulder 65/80deg. and someone who turns them 65/100deg.. And doesnít it also make a difference in a golfer who creates more of a differential between hips and shoulders during the transition from someone who doesnít?


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#16 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:45 AM

I can change the amount of openness drastically in my own swing by doing two things:


1.) Pivot to impact instead of throwing the arms.
2.) Plow forward through impact with the chest and fight not to release.

Although correct hip movement is vital, hip turn/depth isn't the issue with being open, its all upper body IMO.

Also body shape plays a role. Imagine having absurdly long arms...its going to take longer for the club to get to impact.

Are you squaring the club up with your body or your arms? Tour pros vary a lot in this aspect.

These 3d swing analysis need much larger samples and statistics.
What would be the most telling is not 3D analysis but rather what muscles are being activated at different points in the swing.

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 16 April 2018 - 09:47 AM.


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#17 RichieHunt

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:48 AM

 gators78, on 16 April 2018 - 07:56 AM, said:

I mean he's no Dustin Johnson and I also thought he was on the shorter side, but just checked he's averaging 279.3 on the Champions Tour which puts him T26th on distance, ahead of David Toms, Calc, O'Meara, Triplett, and Lehman. Granted they only keep stats for 71 guys, but if you consider his peer class that ain't too shabby.

Champions Tour driving distance measurements isn't a very good measurement since you have so many players that are not really prepping for great golf.

In 2007 he was 139th out of 196 in Driving Distance on Tour.  He did generate 114.6 mph club speed, but he's a steeper AoA player that was incredibly accurate and precise off the tee.







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#18 b_f_c_99

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:17 AM

 MonteScheinblum, on 15 April 2018 - 10:58 PM, said:

 b_f_c_99, on 15 April 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

Hey Monte serious question,  how would this explain Bobby Jones and most of the golfers from 100 years ago that appear to have massive amounts of hip turn?  Maybe I’m not hearing what the are saying correctly but it appears to me the are advocating X factor principals, and I know you think that the X factor is poison for generations of golfers.

They are not.  They are saying don’t over rotate.  Golfers of 100 years ago were dealing with hickory.  Different move...and they still delivered impact properly.

They specifically said DO NOT restrict...and most golfers can’t over rotate and sequence properly.

Ok,  interesting how I heard this very differently,  I know they didn't say 'hey restrict the hip turn'  but in my mind 'you have less than 1/4 of a second to get your hips open'  translates as 'you better not turn your hips very far'.

On a side note I've been messing around with a very large hip turn in the backswing  and I find my instinct is to then turn them back open just as much in the forward swing.  Conversely, if I don't turn them very far in the backswing,  I won't open them up much in the forward swing.

Thanks for responding,  always good to hear your thoughts!

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#19 jonsnow

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 01:44 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 15 April 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and I'm curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because there's just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



That's not really what they said.

They didn't say 45, they said 60 which on,y happens with poor and or flat rotation, like when they demonstrated pelvis working toward the target.

And the guy in the video who only rotated 30* had a very short backswing with what looked like 70* of shoulder roation and barely past left arm parallel backswing.  That is pretty standard.  

They never said 45* was bad.  They said over roation is bad, which any competent instructor would agree with...and if the right hip gets deep correctly, over rotation is unlikely...and they talked about that too.

Thanks for the clarification, Monte. I watched the same video last night & had a similar reaction to the OP. I did notice the model they used had a very compact swing.

I watched several of their videos last night, a few had really bad audio. I can't remember, was this one that had audio problems?

Edited by jonsnow, 16 April 2018 - 01:44 PM.

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#20 Smashdcrab

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:19 PM

 b_f_c_99, on 16 April 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 15 April 2018 - 10:58 PM, said:

 b_f_c_99, on 15 April 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

Hey Monte serious question,  how would this explain Bobby Jones and most of the golfers from 100 years ago that appear to have massive amounts of hip turn?  Maybe Iím not hearing what the are saying correctly but it appears to me the are advocating X factor principals, and I know you think that the X factor is poison for generations of golfers.

They are not.  They are saying donít over rotate.  Golfers of 100 years ago were dealing with hickory.  Different move...and they still delivered impact properly.

They specifically said DO NOT restrict...and most golfers canít over rotate and sequence properly.

Ok,  interesting how I heard this very differently,  I know they didn't say 'hey restrict the hip turn'  but in my mind 'you have less than 1/4 of a second to get your hips open'  translates as 'you better not turn your hips very far'.

On a side note I've been messing around with a very large hip turn in the backswing  and I find my instinct is to then turn them back open just as much in the forward swing.  Conversely, if I don't turn them very far in the backswing,  I won't open them up much in the forward swing.

Thanks for responding,  always good to hear your thoughts!
In my mind the " 1/4 of a second to get your hips open" comment translates to "turn them quickly and early".
Guess if I thought a glass was half empty , you would think it was half full.


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#21 dap

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 01:26 AM

 Jagpilotohio, on 15 April 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

 Sean2, on 15 April 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

This is just my own take, but I never think about my hip turn. My only thought is turning my back to the target...I let the hips take care of themselves.

Agreed.

I never once have considered trying to get my hips to turn a certain amount.  They only turn as much as they have to in order to allow a good shoulder turn.

My opinion only....Anyone deliberately thinking about TRYING  to turn their hips is listening to the wrong instructor.
There are no sweeping generalisations in golf. Greg Norman used a swing thought he called RPB which stands for right pocket back. Not everyone gets sufficient hip turn naturally and sometimes needs extra effort there.

The first rule in instruction is never assume what is applicable to your own golf swing is the same for everyone.

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#22 RBImGuy

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:01 AM

 RattlesnakeRon, on 15 April 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

I have never seen hip rotation discussed from this perspective, and I'm curious what you all think.

The AMG guys are suggesting that we amateurs may need to forego the conventional wisdom of getting a full 45 deg of hip rotation in the backswing if we want to have a chance of having them at least 20 deg open at impact, which is critical to good impact conditions... because there's just not enough time during the downswing for us to rotate that fast.



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