235 replies to this topic

[Atrayn]

Sell the baby blades and use that money for a great instructor. I went and saw Martin Chuck in 2012. He called me a good ball-striker but not great. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Big blow to my ego. He didn't really address anything except that I did not have enough UD in my swing through impact (yes it doesn't happen naturally). Like you, I 2nd guessed it and didn't follow his advice even though I had good results. What finally validated it for me was purchasing an impact snap device. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Fast forward to 2016 when I went to a clinic by Monte. I had been tinkering with a few other things in my swing and somehow my secondary tilt disappeared because some other stuff I thought would help my ball-striking.

Moral of the story, quit tinkering based off stuff you read and watch....go see a great intructor

Edit: It's a very hard habit to break. Especially if you are an engineer. Always trying to apply root cause. I slip occasionally because I was a bad flipper (not at all anymore) Breaking that habit took two full solid years. I had three major swing faults and had to get rid of each one at a time.

Edited by Atrayn, 13 April 2018 - 08:28 AM.

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[4Par]

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[PepsiDuck]

jut111, on 13 April 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

To relate it back to the OP, do you think this thought would help him?  I have no doubt Pepsi understands what you describe but no intention to do so is going to get him there from where he is in transition/early downswing.

You are correct.  There is clearly one issue that I absolutely MUST address before anything else...as drewtaylor21 puts it best, I have to avoid retraction of my right scapula at transition which causes my right elbow to get trapped behind my body on the downswing.  The issue for me now is finding the best method to address it.

And as you say, anything else will be a result of whether I can mitigate that issue.

[PepsiDuck]

Atrayn, on 13 April 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

Sell the baby blades and use that money for a great instructor. I went and saw Martin Chuck in 2012. He called me a good ball-striker but not great. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Big blow to my ego. He didn't really address anything except that I did not have enough UD in my swing through impact (yes it doesn't happen naturally). Like you, I 2nd guessed it and didn't follow his advice even though I had good results. What finally validated it for me was purchasing an impact snap device. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Fast forward to 2016 when I went to a clinic by Monte. I had been tinkering with a few other things in my swing and somehow my secondary tilt disappeared because some other stuff I thought would help my ball-striking.

Moral of the story, quit tinkering based off stuff you read and watch....go see a great intructor

Edit: It's a very hard habit to break. Especially if you are an engineer. Always trying to apply root cause. I slip occasionally because I was a bad flipper (not at all anymore) Breaking that habit took two full solid years. I had three major swing faults and had to get rid of each one at a time.

How did you know I was an engineer, at least by education....?  

I may not have made it particularly clear, but 98% of the ideas in my bag of tricks that I tinker with come from highly reputable instructors, not YouTube or random WRX posts.  I actually worked regularly with one of Martin Chuck's disciples last year for about 8 months when I lived in California, seeing him about twice a month during that time.

[TTGolf77]

jut111, on 13 April 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

TTGolf77, on 12 April 2018 - 11:19 PM, said:

I tried to explain this in another thread and nobody listened, but your swing is such a perfect example I'm going to try again.

Everyone in this thread and 99.9% of golfers have no idea how to release through impact. All this talk about keeping things simple and having passive arms in the downswing is complete nonsense. The reason people believe this is because a passive release is better than a incorrect release. A very specific force is applied to the shaft from P6 to P7.

I illustrated this by drawing a line between the top of the glove in both you and Tiger's swing. From P6 to P7, the clubhead works down and out, obviously. What is less obvious is that the hands must move up and in during the same time period or else your hands are going to stall and your going to get less an optimal shaft lean and rate of closure through impact.

This snaps the shaft like a whip through impact and is the key to both power and clubface control. You are never going to hit the rest of the positions in the swing perfectly without understanding the release.

99.9% of golfers don't understand this?  really.  Guess I'm a top achiever!  I'd argue that what you describe is more a result of having the arms in sync with a good pivot then an active intention however.  

To relate it back to the OP, do you think this thought would help him?  I have no doubt Pepsi understands what you describe but no intention to do so is going to get him there from where he is in transition/early downswing.

That my point, if you understood it you wouldn’t think it the result of a good pivot.

[pearsonified]

You think Bubba Watson thinks about any of this sh*t?

[PepsiDuck]

pearsonified, on 13 April 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

You think Bubba Watson thinks about any of this sh*t?

I actually didn't think about any of this sh*t back in 2014...I just hit the ball.

[Atrayn]

PepsiDuck, on 13 April 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

Atrayn, on 13 April 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

Sell the baby blades and use that money for a great instructor. I went and saw Martin Chuck in 2012. He called me a good ball-striker but not great. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Big blow to my ego. He didn't really address anything except that I did not have enough UD in my swing through impact (yes it doesn't happen naturally). Like you, I 2nd guessed it and didn't follow his advice even though I had good results. What finally validated it for me was purchasing an impact snap device. He even guessed correctly that I struggled around the greens due to the lack of UD.

Fast forward to 2016 when I went to a clinic by Monte. I had been tinkering with a few other things in my swing and somehow my secondary tilt disappeared because some other stuff I thought would help my ball-striking.

Moral of the story, quit tinkering based off stuff you read and watch....go see a great intructor

Edit: It's a very hard habit to break. Especially if you are an engineer. Always trying to apply root cause. I slip occasionally because I was a bad flipper (not at all anymore) Breaking that habit took two full solid years. I had three major swing faults and had to get rid of each one at a time.

How did you know I was an engineer, at least by education....?  

I may not have made it particularly clear, but 98% of the ideas in my bag of tricks that I tinker with come from highly reputable instructors, not YouTube or random WRX posts.  I actually worked regularly with one of Martin Chuck's disciples last year for about 8 months when I lived in California, seeing him about twice a month during that time.

Because we do what you're doing, and like I said it's a hard habit to break because like most, we expect immediate/semi-immediate results. I did the same thing for 10 years my friend. Sought out all the high level instructors stuff in books, videos, because I thought I was good enough to do it myself. Plus I didn't want to fork out the $$. However, I had no problem buying more irons, drivers etc. I went so far as to start building my own clubs trying to save money. I am a professional researcher, not occupation but it's what I do.

It shouldn't take 10 highly reputable instructors to get there...

So why did you quit with Martin's disciple?

[wmblake2000]

As to lessons, I work with Monte (live in so cal). I see him about 1x/month. Mainly what he does is comment on my progress from last lesson and diagnose my next step - in other words creates a core focus. I then work and work and work on that focus until I either see improvement or start drifting around into unrelated areas. But I experiment with a lot of feels and approaches to get the objective results and use mainly camera to validate.

As a result my swing and scoring are both improving, systematically, over time.

The process is very much parallel to what Jim Waldron described. Sequential.

I think the core points pertinent to OP is a) get a focused diagnosis of “what next� and then really pay attention there until you improve it and see how it shifts the rest of the swing. Do a lot of half/slow motion swings and be patient.

In other words become an expert on how productive change really happens for you. This is the most valuable skill of them all.

Edited by wmblake2000, 13 April 2018 - 10:17 AM.

[pearsonified]

Quote

I actually didn't think about any of this sh*t back in 2014...I just hit the ball.

That should be the final post in this thread.

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[wybrh]

Your takeaway is causing a bunch of issues.  I feel this way because I went very similar things.  You are solid at setup, but the takeaway is causing a lot of downstream issues that shouldn't even be thought about until you fix your takeaway.

[The Pearl]

The great non-golfer Ed Seykota said about investing/trading, "Everybody gets what they want out of the market.  Some people like to lose, so they win by losing."

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

[Nard_S]

PepsiDuck, on 13 April 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

jut111, on 13 April 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

To relate it back to the OP, do you think this thought would help him?  I have no doubt Pepsi understands what you describe but no intention to do so is going to get him there from where he is in transition/early downswing.

You are correct.  There is clearly one issue that I absolutely MUST address before anything else...as drewtaylor21 puts it best, I have to avoid retraction of my right scapula at transition which causes my right elbow to get trapped behind my body on the downswing. The issue for me now is finding the best method to address it.

And as you say, anything else will be a result of whether I can mitigate that issue.

It's impossible to get elbows closer together and in front of torso with scapula in retraction. You have to release them, to get it done.Jack retracts his scapula but he always said, he "releases from the top". Part of that release is the scapula going down and into spine base.

What your doing hits home to me because I have less issues with irons but on driver often fail to 'release from top". Changes things for the better when I do. You're fit and strong, you can work it out with minor changes. Not often mentioned but grooved swings fire off of "triggers" and often those can be flawed, so when you do something new, you need to map a new trigger. That's what takes a lot of reps. Identifying & killing off the old( they're like cockroaches), then cementing the new.

[wmblake2000]

Nard_S, on 13 April 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

Identifying & killing off the old( they're like cockroaches), then cementing the new.

Big cockroaches like in MIB.

[Atrayn]

Nard_S, on 13 April 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

PepsiDuck, on 13 April 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

jut111, on 13 April 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

To relate it back to the OP, do you think this thought would help him?  I have no doubt Pepsi understands what you describe but no intention to do so is going to get him there from where he is in transition/early downswing.

You are correct.  There is clearly one issue that I absolutely MUST address before anything else...as drewtaylor21 puts it best, I have to avoid retraction of my right scapula at transition which causes my right elbow to get trapped behind my body on the downswing. The issue for me now is finding the best method to address it.

And as you say, anything else will be a result of whether I can mitigate that issue.

It's impossible to get elbows closer together and in front of torso with scapula in retraction. You have to release them, to get it done.Jack retracts his scapula but he always said, he "releases from the top". Part of that release is the scapula going down and into spine base.

What your doing hits home to me because I have less issues with irons but on driver often fail to 'release from top". Changes things for the better when I do. You're fit and strong, you can work it out with minor changes. Not often mentioned but grooved swings fire off of "triggers" and often those can be flawed, so when you do something new, you need to map a new trigger. That's what takes a lot of reps. Identifying & killing off the old( they're like cockroaches), then cementing the new.

Get this https://www.tourstri...ails.aspx?p=238  and drill....you'll have to keep the scapula in place otherwise it will drop every time.

[Mike Divot]

The Pearl, on 13 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

Bingo! This guy is addicted to the minutia. He loves it.

He won't be happy until he knows the medical names of all the blood vessels connected to the scapula and then he'll try to regulate the blood flow through them at address. Because THAT'S the secret to the golf swing. (For three days. Then the high wears off and it's on to the next crazy idea.)

[wmblake2000]

The Pearl, on 13 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

The great non-golfer Ed Seykota said about investing/trading, "Everybody gets what they want out of the market.  Some people like to lose, so they win by losing."

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

That is an incredible post. I think this is true and powerful.

[NotForeLong]

IMO this scapula thing isn’t the answer. In both shots of the new swing OP is super steep. No way to recover from that p5. I say the scapula thing isn’t the answer cuz even in the “better” one OP is still basically cooked from p5.

[PepsiDuck]

Atrayn, on 13 April 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

So why did you quit with Martin's disciple?

I moved to the east coast and he moved to Phoenix to rejoin Martin.  It became difficult to sustain from a distance, and I eventually moved on as things went south.

[PepsiDuck]

NotForeLong, on 13 April 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

IMO this scapula thing isn’t the answer. In both shots of the new swing OP is super steep. No way to recover from that p5. I say the scapula thing isn’t the answer cuz even in the “better” one OP is still basically cooked from p5.

I absolutely agree.  The problem for the past few years has been figuring out how to either (1) prevent that position to begin with, or (2) find a way to consistently recover from that position.

After struggling mightily with (2) for so long, I’m trying (1)...

Edited by PepsiDuck, 13 April 2018 - 09:22 PM.

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[dap]

The Pearl, on 13 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

The great non-golfer Ed Seykota said about investing/trading, "Everybody gets what they want out of the market.  Some people like to lose, so they win by losing."

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

Or it could be the OP just wants to improve. It's similar to why Tiger has changed his swing so many times. He said that if you are not improving then you are going backwards. The hope of improvement is the motivation one needs to work on their games. Nobody wants to spend the hours practicing just to stay the same though the sad truth is in most cases improvement doesn't always come as Tiger has found out.

It's funny isn't it with golfers. We are a greedy lot. Tiger was a plus 10 handicap at his peak yet he still wanted more. We all have a ceiling but if you don't at least try you won't know where that ceiling is.

[Redjeep83]

dap, on 14 April 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

The Pearl, on 13 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

The great non-golfer Ed Seykota said about investing/trading, "Everybody gets what they want out of the market.  Some people like to lose, so they win by losing."

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

Or it could be the OP just wants to improve. It's similar to why Tiger has changed his swing so many times. He said that if you are not improving then you are going backwards. The hope of improvement is the motivation one needs to work on their games. Nobody wants to spend the hours practicing just to stay the same though the sad truth is in most cases improvement doesn't always come as Tiger has found out.

It's funny isn't it with golfers. We are a greedy lot. Tiger was a plus 10 handicap at his peak yet he still wanted more. We all have a ceiling but if you don't at least try you won't know where that ceiling is.

Should listen to Boyd Summerhays story, #1 am in the country. Lost his card like many rookies do first year pga tour for other reasons than swing and then panicked and went to every instructor out there changing up his swing. Ended up ruining his ballstriking skill that got him to best am in country and never got back on pga tour. This is what happened with tigers game too, just killed by instruction

IMO, you look like a fairly athletic guy, just go out there and try to make an athletic move without any swing position thoughts, Do that entire season.

[Yrrdead]

PepsiDuck, on 11 April 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Yrrdead, on 11 April 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

I mean I'm in for the thread, but I "feel" like the problem is still the same and it has little to nothing to do with your golf swing "positions". No amount of resets, or back to basics is going to fix this issue imo.

Hoping for the best for you and not just with your golf game.

Curious...what's the issue to which you are referring...?  Because I have many issues...hahah.

I love the fascination with your threads, I think it must stem from everyone seeing a bit of themselves in your trials and tribulations .

While some of the posters in this thread may not be familiar w/ your history, that isn't me. You spent a good couple of years playing two really awesome golf courses on a daily basis while at the same time receiving regular lessons with your local pro (no slouch) as well as multiple individual lessons and clinics w/ Monte.

So I think its fair to say that you haven't been able to "play" your way out of the problem or be "taught" out of the hole.

I'm not going to pretend that I have the answer for you, that being said... My suggestion is to spend your time/money/energy with a quality sports psychologist for a bit. I realize that probably isn't what you are looking for but I sincerely believe that your "problem" is pretty complex web of  mental issues compounded and habituated over the last few years of frustration. I realize that given your age, gender and current career path that therapy, meditation , and some journalling isn't quite your cup of tea but I'm betting that you would see more positive results than most anything else I can think of.

I understand that you like to DIY, so at the very least pick up a copy of Zen Golf (Joseph Parent) can pick it up used for <$5 on amazon. Pretty short and to the point with the added benefit of giving you a pretty good set of steps to follow, along with "drills" to improve on.


Finally on a semi related note , I know that you have the practice manual but on Adam Young's blog he had a post that literally talks about scapula.  I had a chuckle when I saw you talking about scapula retraction as it made me recall this; https://www.adamyoun...-swing-changes/

[Hawkeye77]

Not really sure there is much different in this thread than the lengthy ones that came before, and really don't know why this one is significantly different than the one started in October (then there is the one on "shallowing" just a few days ago).

The above post is on point, but let's be honest, when you "work" with an instructor, you are still out there and on here looking for anything and everything, so nothing has changed in any significant way.

Not trying to be negative and if another thread helps with motivation/confidence/support then great.

Hard to get out of our own way, I sure know that, and really hope you figure out a way to progress the way you want to and have expectations and a plan that will work, I just think you know what that recipe is and just can't commit to following it?  If not, then I really hope you find a recipe that works and you get where you want to go following the new one and wish you nothing but the best of luck.

Nice guys who are still young, love golf and have the physical talent to be really good deserve to have success - remember, it's a game for the next 50 years, not the next 6 months.  There, my $.01 of "wisdom".

Edited by Hawkeye77, 14 April 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[oikos1]

One can only hope the fitter has the new baby blades ready for play in the Club 'B' team tryouts this Sunday.

[The Pearl]

dap, on 14 April 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

The Pearl, on 13 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

The great non-golfer Ed Seykota said about investing/trading, "Everybody gets what they want out of the market.  Some people like to lose, so they win by losing."

Perhaps the payoff for you of jumping around from thought to thought with a chaotic mind is much higher than the payoff for you actually improving.

Or it could be the OP just wants to improve. It's similar to why Tiger has changed his swing so many times. He said that if you are not improving then you are going backwards. The hope of improvement is the motivation one needs to work on their games. Nobody wants to spend the hours practicing just to stay the same though the sad truth is in most cases improvement doesn't always come as Tiger has found out.

It's funny isn't it with golfers. We are a greedy lot. Tiger was a plus 10 handicap at his peak yet he still wanted more. We all have a ceiling but if you don't at least try you won't know where that ceiling is.

One could argue that "trying to improve" was not Tiger's actual motivation for seeking swing changes. He may have thought that is why he did it, but I suspect his actual subconscious motivation is different than "trying to improve".   I 100% believe that a golfer's entire approach to the game is a micro peek into their how they live their life.

The OP just proved this in this thread. He received all kinds of sound practical advice, but picked up and ran with the "scapula" solution.  He got just what he really wanted out of starting this thread.

[PepsiDuck]

oikos1, on 14 April 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

One can only hope the fitter has the new baby blades ready for play in the Club 'B' team tryouts this Sunday.

Unfortunately not...he’s taking a few weeks because he’ll likely have to return shafts to KBS to ensure frequency matching across the board.

[PepsiDuck]

pinhigh27, on 13 April 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

Seems like what you're doing isn't working yet you keep doijg it. Baby blades and rebar shafts aren't going to make you consistently break 100 and keep ball on planet. Seems more like you'd benefit from  a very high frequency set of lessons like once or twice a week in order to keep your focus on stuff that matters. That will do way more for your game than clubs will.

I’m pleased to report that I managed to break 100 in a tournament round today, scrapping it around for a brilliant 99. Though we played all OB and lost balls as lateral hazards in the interest of time, so there was certainly potential for a great many more strokes.

[mshills]

Man that's tough!

I'm not saying you are Adam Scott, but your swing is too damn good to be putting up 99.

On the flip side you don't want to see what I was doing in my inaugural 2018 round on Friday.....so I hear what you are saying.

Where do you like to play in NOVA?  I'm in Ashburn about once a month.

[Hawkeye77]

PepsiDuck, on 14 April 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

pinhigh27, on 13 April 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

Seems like what you're doing isn't working yet you keep doijg it. Baby blades and rebar shafts aren't going to make you consistently break 100 and keep ball on planet. Seems more like you'd benefit from  a very high frequency set of lessons like once or twice a week in order to keep your focus on stuff that matters. That will do way more for your game than clubs will.

I'm pleased to report that I managed to break 100 in a tournament round today, scrapping it around for a brilliant 99. Though we played all OB and lost balls as lateral hazards in the interest of time, so there was certainly potential for a great many more strokes.

Nowhere to go but up! Well, or down in terms of score.  ;-)

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