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Pepsi Duck's NEW Golf Thread...! I Finally Have Some Semblance of a Plan...


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#1 PepsiDuck

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 08:30 PM

I decided to start a new thread because I wanted to leave all my negativity of my old thread behind and didn't want to keep creating new threads just to get my thoughts out.  I want to thank everyone for all the feedback, both good and bad, you have given over the years.  It's no secret that I have really struggled with the game over the past few years, to the frustration of both you and me.  

I think it finally came full circle recently when I was playing a tryout for my club's net 'B' team and I realized I just couldn't continue the path I've been on.  I was playing with an 8 handicap with a mediocre, but serviceable, swing.  He was having a tough day and hit some poor drives and approach shots.  These weren't necessarily terrible shots; only obvious mishits that came up short or trickled into the rough.  And he was becoming visibly upset and agitated with each poor shot.  Meanwhile, I hit some incredibly wild drives, both the line drive 100 yard pull hooks and the two-fairways-over blocks.  It dawned on me that I've completely stopped becoming upset at bad shots...the usual reaction is an audible chuckle to begin the search party or hit a provisional tee shot.  As a former low handicapper with aspirations for competitive amateur golf, this is not how I want to feel after hitting a poor shot.  I don't want to feel complete apathy (bordering on amusement) when I hit terrible shots simply because I've grown to expect them; nor do I want to feel utter shock if I do manage to hit a good shot.  I just don't think it's possible to get better with that mindset.

After some chance reading on WRX and a random GG Instagram post, I decided to go back to my body pivot-centric swing from 2014, when I was maintaining a 2-3 handicap and actually *playing golf*, believe it or not.  I had toyed with the idea before but always decided against it because I wanted to stay the course and fight through the suck.  I have posted a video of my 2014 swing (unfortunately no DTL view) as well as my current 2018 swing, just as points of reference.

2014: https://vimeo.com/264166743

2018: https://vimeo.com/264167017

I know my old swing definitely had some fundamental issues, but it was my homegrown swing that I had used since I was about 10 years old and had evolved during the "fire the hips and turn the body hard" era.  I had an excessive hip slide, my right hip had a tendency to pop out, and my backswing put me in a stuck position, especially with longer clubs.  However, my "improved" 2018 swing absolutely terrifies me.  I honestly have no idea where the ball will go and I feel I have absolutely no control of the club.  I am afraid of turning my body because I am so focused on getting my arms out in front.  As soon as I hit my first pull of the day, I go into full-on arm flailing mode because I associate poor shots with an over-active body rotation...and I believe this only worsens the problem.

Some may say that I just need to stick with it longer, but I think four years is long enough to know that something isn't working out...whether it's a physical or mental issue.  I've learned a great deal about the golf swing, and after looking back at my 2014 swing with a new lens, I think I know the way to move forward with that more natural-feeling swing.

At this point, I think I've adequately addressed the two things that I needed to do with the 2014 swing: (1) eliminate the lateral hip slide and control the trail hip and (2) adjust the backswing to keep the clubhead in front of my hands longer.  About two years ago, I spent 8 months working with a local instructor on the GG/DD-style, and it just never clicked for me.  Now I understand why.  I never felt comfortable opening my body as much as I needed to; instead, I would feel like I had to keep my body closed as long as possible and let my arms "catch up" in front of my body.  Apparently the two ideas don't necessarily match.

So I have another opportunity to try out for the Marine Corps Golf Team this summer.  I'm currently an 8.1 handicap trending to a 9 with no ceiling in sight.  My mindset is completely different from two years ago when I started my first thread.  Rather than hope that I will somehow make it to scratch in six months, I now don't really have any expectations of anything.  And it bugs me a little.  I have trouble with mediocrity...

I'm going to use this thread to post golf thoughts, ask questions, and give updates on how my game is going.  I find that writing about it helps me cope...hahah.

As always, thanks for reading!

Edited by PepsiDuck, 16 April 2018 - 09:47 PM.

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#2 PowderedToastMan

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You’re overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don’t need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.
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#3 PepsiDuck

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You're overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don't need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.

This is a great point.  I *am* concerned with minute details; unfortunately, it's just my nature.  I personally feel there are too many variables in the golf swing and if you approach it piecemeal, then subsequent fixes may not be compatible.  For example, if you fix transition first and then move onto fixing the backswing, the transition fix may not work with the new backswing.  This can lead to some serious confusion and frustration; is the backswing now wrong?  Or is the transition wrong?  Or both?  That's why I feel that giving someone all 10 things that are wrong from the very start is the way to go...that way, they know how each component fix fits in with the rest of the component fixes, and they know at the end of the day, all the fixes are designed to work together rather than in isolation based on the swing in single snapshot in time.  But I may be wrong... :dntknw:

You note that I lift my arms and get disconnected on my backswing.  I agree.  No one ever really addressed my backswing...my focus was always on transition and correcting the disconnection/out of sync-ness with some transition move.

Edited by PepsiDuck, 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM.

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#4 Jim Waldron

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You're overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don't need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.

This is a great point.  I *am* concerned with minute details; unfortunately, it's just my nature.  I personally feel there are too many variables in the golf swing and if you approach it piecemeal, then subsequent fixes may not be compatible.  For example, if you fix transition first and then move onto fixing the backswing, the transition fix may not work with the new backswing.  This can lead to some serious confusion and frustration; is the backswing now wrong?  Or is the transition wrong?  Or both?  That's why I feel that giving someone all 10 things that are wrong from the very start is the way to go...that way, they know how each component fix fits in with the rest of the component fixes, and they know at the end of the day, all the fixes are designed to work together rather than in isolation based on the swing in single snapshot in time.  But I may be wrong... :dntknw:

You note that I lift my arms and get disconnected on my backswing.  I agree.  No one ever really addressed my backswing...my focus was always on transition and correcting the disconnection/out of sync-ness with some transition move.

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

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#5 PepsiDuck

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:08 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

I generally agree that one can only focus on one swing element or segment at a time, and the focus should follow a sequential order...however, as you've noted, I think a player needs to have a full understanding of what the whole picture is before starting on the first element.  In other words, I think I would want to know exactly all the things I'm doing wrong, even if I can only focus on one element at a time.  That way, I have context for the fix for each element and an understanding that I should not expect to hit the ball solidly until all fixes have been implemented.  Otherwise, it becomes a game of whack-a-mole...

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#6 drewtaylor21

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:54 PM

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#7 oikos1

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:21 AM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

I generally agree that one can only focus on one swing element or segment at a time, and the focus should follow a sequential order...however, as you've noted, I think a player needs to have a full understanding of what the whole picture is before starting on the first element.  In other words, I think I would want to know exactly all the things I'm doing wrong, even if I can only focus on one element at a time.  That way, I have context for the fix for each element and an understanding that I should not expect to hit the ball solidly until all fixes have been implemented.  Otherwise, it becomes a game of whack-a-mole...

Pepsi, your dollars are ripe for the taking.  No one would play golf if they truly believed in this reality because the reality is no one hits the ball solidly every time.

Quit finding excuses and strive for excellence.

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#8 Yrrdead

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:40 AM

I mean I'm in for the thread, but I "feel" like the problem is still the same and it has little to nothing to do with your golf swing "positions". No amount of resets, or back to basics is going to fix this issue imo.

Hoping for the best for you and not just with your golf game.
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#9 Albatross85

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 09:00 AM

Figure out a way to stop yanking on the handle, pretty impossible to shallow when your pulling on it from the top. Good luck on your journey
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#10 PepsiDuck

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 10:48 AM

View PostYrrdead, on 11 April 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

I mean I'm in for the thread, but I "feel" like the problem is still the same and it has little to nothing to do with your golf swing "positions". No amount of resets, or back to basics is going to fix this issue imo.

Hoping for the best for you and not just with your golf game.

Curious...what's the issue to which you are referring...?  Because I have many issues...hahah.

View PostAlbatross85, on 11 April 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

Figure out a way to stop yanking on the handle, pretty impossible to shallow when your pulling on it from the top. Good luck on your journey

This is interesting...in the 2018 swing, I focus on the feel of "firing" the arms from the top with a still lower body.  I was always under the impression this was a shallowing move...

View Postoikos1, on 11 April 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

Pepsi, your dollars are ripe for the taking.  No one would play golf if they truly believed in this reality because the reality is no one hits the ball solidly every time.

Quit finding excuses and strive for excellence.

Absolutely agree.  But what does "solidly" really mean?  Ball first contact that goes in the general direction of your target?  Or a perfectly struck shot that follows the exact intended trajectory and distance?  If the latter, then I would agree that's an unrealistic expectation.  If the former, I feel it's realistic to expect that a majority of shots result in a playable next shot.  If's difficult to play golf when you know you have a 50/50 chance you're going to find your ball on each shot.  You may scoff and think I'm exaggerating, but for those who have played with me, it's really not that far off...

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#11 PowderedToastMan

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 10:59 AM

If you're playing so bad, why are you having such a difficult time trusting reputable instructors? Jim came by and gave you gold, and you pretty much scoffed it off like you knew more than him. You don't. You need to stop thinking you understand everything. Find an instructor who you trust, then do whatever they tell you to do, even if you doubt it.

It's pretty clear your game is going in circles because you don't have a plan and change your direction at the drop of a hat. If you want to play better golf, you need to stop going at it on your own and doubting everything you hear. I can also tell your game is going in circles because you seem to think your 2014 swing and 2018 swing are much different. They aren't. That's why I told you to just focus on shortening your backswing, because you were getting good results with that in 2014. However, as shown in this thread, you demonstrate that you actually don't want help and want to figure it out on your own, which you've shown isn't working.

What's your plan here? Do you actually want to get better? You might think this post is harsh, but it's pretty obvious to any of us who've taught or played high-level golf that you are getting in your own way.
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#12 nsxguy

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:00 AM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

I decided to start a new thread because I wanted to leave all my negativity of my old thread behind and didn't want to keep creating new threads just to get my thoughts out.  I want to thank everyone for all the feedback, both good and bad, you have given over the years.  It's no secret that I have really struggled with the game over the past few years, to the frustration of both you and me.  

{snip}

I'm going to use this thread to post golf thoughts, ask questions, and give updates on how my game is going.  I find that writing about it helps me cope...hahah.

As always, thanks for reading!

I'm sorry, who are you again ? LOL

I've read though this thread (never saw any of your others/posts).

It sounds like you're your own worst enemy. Suggestions good and bad ? How would you know the difference.

It sounds like you're a classic example of "too many cooks". "Let me try this", "Let me try that". "THIS putter's the one !!!" (like a buddy of mine LMAO)

I didn't even look at your swing(s). My first suggestion would be to find a good instructor and take lessons.

If that is impossible/impractical and you have to do it on your own, forget about this place (for instruction anyway LOL) and pick someone whose instruction book or videos you feel most resemble what you're already doing and stick with that/those guy(s).

Good luck
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#13 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:02 AM

You definitely steepen the club into impact along with early extending.

I define solidly to be clean contact and on the center, independent of target line. I could hit a giant hook and strike it solidly. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to hit the ball solidly close to every time, but to me that is more the goal of someone near scratch. Majority of shots with a playable next shot is not a lofty goal and kind of the baseline to get to low single digit I'd say.
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#14 copperjeff

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:14 AM

PepsiDuck, PM sent
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So glad I picked an outside activity...

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#15 wmblake2000

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:09 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You're overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don't need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.

This is a great point.  I *am* concerned with minute details; unfortunately, it's just my nature.  I personally feel there are too many variables in the golf swing and if you approach it piecemeal, then subsequent fixes may not be compatible.  For example, if you fix transition first and then move onto fixing the backswing, the transition fix may not work with the new backswing.  This can lead to some serious confusion and frustration; is the backswing now wrong?  Or is the transition wrong?  Or both?  That's why I feel that giving someone all 10 things that are wrong from the very start is the way to go...that way, they know how each component fix fits in with the rest of the component fixes, and they know at the end of the day, all the fixes are designed to work together rather than in isolation based on the swing in single snapshot in time.  But I may be wrong... :dntknw:

You note that I lift my arms and get disconnected on my backswing.  I agree.  No one ever really addressed my backswing...my focus was always on transition and correcting the disconnection/out of sync-ness with some transition move.

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

Of all the questions I have in golf, this post hits the biggest one.  My question comes from this self observation.  Let's assume I have 4 things that all contribute to inconsistent ball striking - and they are all related.  The swing is always a system of interconnected motions.  

So I work on one for a while diligently.  Don't suck the shaft inside early in backswing.  Ok, I work it and work it and it improves.  Then comes the next step.  Don't overswing and lift at the top.  (the details don't matter, just the principle of learning is my question).  As I work on this, the previous thing regresses.  So ok, focus on early backswing and flow into the overswing.  Get those two to work as one feel.  

Pretty soon (let's call it 18 months!) I am now farther down the line in the swing sequence... maybe impact.  But I still have to constantly monitor all aspects of the swing or I tend to revert.  This is maddening.  What expletive is strong enough to emphasize this???  And add to this the belief that a) to play golf you should focus on the shot, not the swing and b) but when you do this, you revert.  

Can I have lobotomy for $100 Jim?

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#16 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:26 PM

The best advice I have gotten is work on the changes on the range and keep swing thoughts to a minimum on the course. Maybe stick to one small thought during an actual round.
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#17 NotForeLong

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:53 PM

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 11 April 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

If you're playing so bad, why are you having such a difficult time trusting reputable instructors? Jim came by and gave you gold, and you pretty much scoffed it off like you knew more than him. You don't. You need to stop thinking you understand everything. Find an instructor who you trust, then do whatever they tell you to do, even if you doubt it.

It's pretty clear your game is going in circles because you don't have a plan and change your direction at the drop of a hat. If you want to play better golf, you need to stop going at it on your own and doubting everything you hear. I can also tell your game is going in circles because you seem to think your 2014 swing and 2018 swing are much different. They aren't. That's why I told you to just focus on shortening your backswing, because you were getting good results with that in 2014. However, as shown in this thread, you demonstrate that you actually don't want help and want to figure it out on your own, which you've shown isn't working.

What's your plan here? Do you actually want to get better? You might think this post is harsh, but it's pretty obvious to any of us who've taught or played high-level golf that you are getting in your own way.

Totally agree with the above. This new “plan” isn’t gonna work if you keep doing what you’ve been doing. The swings from 2014 and 2018 are not that different, and I guarantee you’ll keep going in circles if you keep analyzing your swing and trying to shoehorn random instructor’s theories into. How were you working with a “GG/DD instructor” for 8 months without discussing why you weren’t rotating? Did the instructor not notice it? Additionally, chasing ideals such as “body-oriented” and thinking you need to be wide open shows me that, to be frank, you don’t understand what’s going in a golf swing on beyond a very superficial level. You don’t need to in order to swing well, but I’d say right now you know just enough to cause harm to your swing and nothing more.

It sounds as though you’ve had some good instruction before, what ended up happening as a result of that? Were your good shots at last getting better when you were doing what the instructor said? If they were, it’s likely that real improvement was going to follow if you had seen the changes through. You are never going to improve if you are constantly changing things on a whim based on threads started here or seen on YouTube. If that’s what you must do, then my advice is not to pay for lessons, because you’d just be wasting your money. If you want to get better on the other hand, my advice would be to find a teacher you trust, and go to them as a blank slate. Don’t tell them what your claim to be working on or what you want to accomplish specifically. Just him some shots in front of them having no swing thoughts.  You are talented enough to do this just fine. Then work on what they say and only that, no YouTube or anything else.  I understand that this is not how you like to approach things analytically, but the current way ain’t working.

Sorry to be harsh, but based on other posts and this thread you seem smart and dedicated, and IMO it’s only your approach to improving as a golfer that is getting in your way, and honestly I doubt you’ll ever get much better if you keep the current approach.  If you do try a different way, you have more than enough talent to get pretty damn good IMO.

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#18 Jim Waldron

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:41 PM

View Postwmblake2000, on 11 April 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You're overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don't need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.

This is a great point.  I *am* concerned with minute details; unfortunately, it's just my nature.  I personally feel there are too many variables in the golf swing and if you approach it piecemeal, then subsequent fixes may not be compatible.  For example, if you fix transition first and then move onto fixing the backswing, the transition fix may not work with the new backswing.  This can lead to some serious confusion and frustration; is the backswing now wrong?  Or is the transition wrong?  Or both?  That's why I feel that giving someone all 10 things that are wrong from the very start is the way to go...that way, they know how each component fix fits in with the rest of the component fixes, and they know at the end of the day, all the fixes are designed to work together rather than in isolation based on the swing in single snapshot in time.  But I may be wrong... :dntknw:

You note that I lift my arms and get disconnected on my backswing.  I agree.  No one ever really addressed my backswing...my focus was always on transition and correcting the disconnection/out of sync-ness with some transition move.

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

Of all the questions I have in golf, this post hits the biggest one.  My question comes from this self observation.  Let's assume I have 4 things that all contribute to inconsistent ball striking - and they are all related.  The swing is always a system of interconnected motions.  

So I work on one for a while diligently.  Don't suck the shaft inside early in backswing.  Ok, I work it and work it and it improves.  Then comes the next step.  Don't overswing and lift at the top.  (the details don't matter, just the principle of learning is my question).  As I work on this, the previous thing regresses.  So ok, focus on early backswing and flow into the overswing.  Get those two to work as one feel.  

Pretty soon (let's call it 18 months!) I am now farther down the line in the swing sequence... maybe impact.  But I still have to constantly monitor all aspects of the swing or I tend to revert.  This is maddening.  What expletive is strong enough to emphasize this???  And add to this the belief that a) to play golf you should focus on the shot, not the swing and b) but when you do this, you revert.  

Can I have lobotomy for $100 Jim?

Two easy answers come to mind. One - you failed to do enough reps to make the first swing change a dominant habit. Very, very common in golf, especially since the advent of the Internet. Intellectual understanding is just a tiny first step. You have to put the reps in.  Two - you never got the Deep Insight about the swing change in the first place, so you never achieved "permission" from the watchdog who sits at the doorway of your subconscious mind Swing Map.  Whatever programs are on the Swing Map is what your body does when swinging at normal speeds. Those programs are comprised mainly of deep-seated beliefs about Power, Impact, Swing Shape, Body Mechanics and Directional control of the golf ball. They overide any merely intellectual beliefs you may have.  

For a swing change to reach dominant habit level where you can rely on it when playing, you need both steps: the Insight, followed by the reps.

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#19 wybrh

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:53 PM

I like your 2018 swing better, maybe because there is a DTL view.  I think you need earlier wrist set on the takeaway and get the right elbow in better position.  Looks like you have all the athletic ability needed.

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#20 FatReed

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:29 PM

Pepsi,

What is your objective?

If you are a golfer, I’d suggest your objective to determine a target, then advance the ball to that target.

It’s not any different than any other objective requiring a motion to achieve? Moving from point A to point B via crawling, walking, or running. Do you, or have you ever, thought about the motion (mechanics) involved in moving from point A to point B? Of course not, you would never get anywhere.

If someone tried to describe to you the individual feelings and intents of how they crawl, walk or run, would it help you? If someone studied the motion (mechanics) of how humans crawl, walk or run, would it help you? No.

Do you think the golf swing is more complicated a motion than crawling is to an infant who cannot even communicate, yet has an objective to get up of his/her back for first time and move across the room? Of course not.

Yet, golfers and golf instructors continue to further dissect the golf swing (motion) into mind boggling minutia, having made the motion the objective. It’s a completely fruitless end-ever, that is leading golfers further and further down the rabbit hole.

I mean, just look at this forum. Every day there is nothing but swing thoughts reintroduced over and over and over. The buzz-word of the day is 3D, as to suggest the more complex the data, intent, etc, the better the minutia. If an infant could communicate, would my telling the infant in exquisite 3D terms how my right quadricep works when crawling, walking or running help him/her in learning the motion? Of course not! It would be the first step toward retardation/paralysis of motion.

This forum is proof that minutia is minutia. That golfers are getting further and further away from the true objective - advancing the ball to a target - and further and further down the rabbit hole that modern golf has them chased.

Motion cannot be taught. It must be learned! The only effective way to learn, improve, or refine a motion is through having the proper objective. The motion is not the objective! Your focus on the motion is retarding you from achieving your objective. . . just as it is to millions of golfers.


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#21 Atrayn

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:43 PM

With your mindset, dozens of PGA pros would have never made it on tour...
That's the problem these days with the internet....look how many home made swings made some serious cash on tour prior.
Trying to achieve the picture perfect swing. Palmer, Nicklaus, Player, Furyk, Mickelson, Spieth don't have modern "text book" swings.
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#22 Golfonthemind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:52 PM

Monte talks a lot on this forum about not going to extremes. Why are body swing with arms along for the ride or arm swing with quiet lower body your only options? You need to sync things up and purposefully slowing certain body parts down while you speed the others up probably isnt going to give great results.

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#23 FatReed

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:55 PM

View PostGolfonthemind, on 11 April 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

Monte talks a lot on this forum about not going to extremes. Why are body swing with arms along for the ride or arm swing with quiet lower body your only options? You need to sync things up and purposefully slowing certain body parts down while you speed the others up probably isnt going to give great results.

If the golfer is thinking about ‘body parts,’ he/she is screwed from the get-go!

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#24 pearsonified

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:06 PM

As PowderedToastMan said, your swings aren't all that different from one another.

To my eye, your 2014 swing just looks a little more "freed up"—I'm guessing you had fewer swing thoughts and a far less pedantic approach to the swing at that time.

You are an athletic guy with all the tools necessary to play great golf. Unfortunately, you are also hopelessly analytical and a little bit self-defeating in your approach because your subconscious knows the truth in all this:

The golf swing is too fast and too dynamic to be broken down into a thousand tiny pieces. It simply does not work that way. Your hyper-analytical approach to the swing and its positions has gotten you on a negative carousel that is never going to end unless you take a different path.

See ball, hit ball. Your brain and your body already know what to do. You don't need positions; you don't need video; you don't need advice from a forum; you need FREEDOM.

If I were you, I'd commit to hitting 1000 balls with no swing thoughts whatsoever. Step up and start smashing the damn thing, and see where that leaves you.
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#25 b_f_c_99

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:15 PM

Pepsi, here is the easiest, quickest fix I can give you.  Next time you play, warm up, do whatever it is you do to get ready.  On the first hole find a nice solid tree,  take your driver, step up to the tree and head butt the tree as hard as you possibly can.  Now go hit your T shot.  If you feel the need to analyze any position or swing elements after that T shot find your ball,  go up to another tree and head butt it as hard as you can again.  Rinse and repeat until your either done over thinking, can't think at all,  or just plain a** knocked unconscious.


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#26 wmblake2000

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:19 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 11 April 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Postwmblake2000, on 11 April 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 10 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 10 April 2018 - 09:13 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 10 April 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just shorten your backswing like your 2014 swing. You're overswinging now, lift your arms significantly and get your arms very disconnected/out of sync with your body.

You don't need some big overhaul. Just shorten your backswing and put a smooth swing on it. You seem very obsessed with perceived minute details in your swing.

This is a great point.  I *am* concerned with minute details; unfortunately, it's just my nature.  I personally feel there are too many variables in the golf swing and if you approach it piecemeal, then subsequent fixes may not be compatible.  For example, if you fix transition first and then move onto fixing the backswing, the transition fix may not work with the new backswing.  This can lead to some serious confusion and frustration; is the backswing now wrong?  Or is the transition wrong?  Or both?  That's why I feel that giving someone all 10 things that are wrong from the very start is the way to go...that way, they know how each component fix fits in with the rest of the component fixes, and they know at the end of the day, all the fixes are designed to work together rather than in isolation based on the swing in single snapshot in time.  But I may be wrong... :dntknw:

You note that I lift my arms and get disconnected on my backswing.  I agree.  No one ever really addressed my backswing...my focus was always on transition and correcting the disconnection/out of sync-ness with some transition move.

It is really, really important for someone like yourself who is heavily invested in long term improvement and a high level of ballstriking skill, to follow one of the Golden Rules of golf swing mastery: work on one Big Change at at time, in the logical sequence of the swing segments as they actually happen: Setup, Grip and Grip Pressure, Aim or the Pre-Swing fundamentals, then takeaway, then second half of backswing, ONLY THEN work on Transition, then Release to Impact, then Followthrough, then Finish.

Resist the temptation to move on to the next Swing Segment until and unless you have mastered "this" Segment.

At first this looks like the Long Way - but in reality it is the shortest way to real improvement.

Of all the questions I have in golf, this post hits the biggest one.  My question comes from this self observation.  Let's assume I have 4 things that all contribute to inconsistent ball striking - and they are all related.  The swing is always a system of interconnected motions.  

So I work on one for a while diligently.  Don't suck the shaft inside early in backswing.  Ok, I work it and work it and it improves.  Then comes the next step.  Don't overswing and lift at the top.  (the details don't matter, just the principle of learning is my question).  As I work on this, the previous thing regresses.  So ok, focus on early backswing and flow into the overswing.  Get those two to work as one feel.  

Pretty soon (let's call it 18 months!) I am now farther down the line in the swing sequence... maybe impact.  But I still have to constantly monitor all aspects of the swing or I tend to revert.  This is maddening.  What expletive is strong enough to emphasize this???  And add to this the belief that a) to play golf you should focus on the shot, not the swing and b) but when you do this, you revert.  

Can I have lobotomy for $100 Jim?

Two easy answers come to mind. One - you failed to do enough reps to make the first swing change a dominant habit. Very, very common in golf, especially since the advent of the Internet. Intellectual understanding is just a tiny first step. You have to put the reps in.  Two - you never got the Deep Insight about the swing change in the first place, so you never achieved "permission" from the watchdog who sits at the doorway of your subconscious mind Swing Map.  Whatever programs are on the Swing Map is what your body does when swinging at normal speeds. Those programs are comprised mainly of deep-seated beliefs about Power, Impact, Swing Shape, Body Mechanics and Directional control of the golf ball. They overide any merely intellectual beliefs you may have.  

For a swing change to reach dominant habit level where you can rely on it when playing, you need both steps: the Insight, followed by the reps.

Fair enough.  As time goes by, I am seeing holistic improvement, but still...some habits die hard.

I tend to think I understand the change in a non-verbal way and how it/they tie together (Deep Map).  Well, maybe not.  The initial move away from the ball - one I have practiced over and over and over - I still push my hands away from my body and roll hands over (it's better, but still unreliable) - and I don't recognize that it's happening. By now a million alarms should be going off.  I think I really need to focus in on this at a depth I probably don't yet imagine.
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#27 carrera

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:38 PM

A friend of mine (solid player) played absolutely terrible in the first round of a club stroke play tournament (he shot somewhere in the low 90's and he was a 2 or 3 index).  He went to the pro after the round to get things figured out....the pro told him to go to the range and just hit a bucket of balls only with a 9 iron, trying to keep the trajectory very low (like a punch out), hitting a target green that was about 120 yds out.  He did that....all he thought about was that move, which of course led to solid contact and a simplified feeling of how to hit the ball.

The pro could have taken him to the range and tried to diagnose what was causing all the problems in the round, mechanically, but he knew that my friend just needed to get a feeling for hitting the ball solid.  PD, you probably could do the same at some point.

Good luck with your game this year.

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#28 PepsiDuck

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:14 PM

Thanks everyone for the great feedback.  I'll try to address everyone's comments and lingering questions, but I wanted to write about what I am 100% confident is a game changer.  I had some discussions and received some great feedback about my swing from my good WRX friends drewtaylor21 and robrey85.  After some video and text exchanges while I was at the range today, we discovered something physiological that I would bet a paycheck on that a dozen instructors (past, present, or future) would not have picked up on.  And but for this discovery, I'm convinced that I would have spent the next four years continuing the struggle.  It isn't a swing issue...it's a physical issue...

Some would say that I have outstanding posture, and my scapula are almost always pulled back...strangely enough, they are pulled back even when I'm sitting back in a chair...it's just more natural and comfortable for me.  Anyway, drewtaylor21 noticed that at the top of my swing, my right scapula is pulled all the way back, as if I'm doing a row.  See below.  Add in the momentum from the downswing pivot, and my right scapula practically locks back and traps my right elbow behind my body on the downswing.  I can either try to actively "throw" my right elbow back in front of my body (2018) or just keep aggressively turning with the right elbow trapped behind my body until impact (2014).

P4.JPG

So, based on this observation, I tried manipulating and "locking" my right scapula in a forward and down position at address, rather than back and up, as it naturally always sits.  This basically involved rolling my shoulder up and forward.  It was certainly awkward and uncomfortable at first, and of course I was slightly scared that my whole shoulder girdle was going to shatter when I tried hitting a ball...hahah.  The difference was instantly night and day, and impact felt like nothing I had ever felt before.  Video also showed that my right elbow got back in front of my body much sooner; my ball flight instant improved and there was a noticeable distance increase.  Limiting the range of motion of my scapula shortened my backswing; when I attempted what previously felt like a "full swing," I could feel my scapula slipping back and up, where it normally floats.  I attached a comparison still of ~P5...left side is scapula back and up, right side is scapula forward and down.  These shots were within minutes of each other, with the only adjustment being the scapula.  I'm sure I can further improve the right picture as I keep working on this.

P5.JPG

I understand this *might* not last longer than a day, and many might yell at or make fun of me for being naive and delusional.  But I'm confident that focusing on this alone will reap long term benefits.  I haven't been this excited about my golf swing in a LONG time...not only does it show up in the ball flight, but it also physically and logically makes sense to me (this is important).  At this point, I just need to not let my backswing get so far back that my right scapula slips out of place.  I'll post video when I go back to the range tomorrow and get some more reps.

Day 2 of Club 'B' team tryouts is this Sunday, so I'll get another shot at it.  Best score of two counts, so it'll be a brand new day.
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#29 jut111

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:24 PM

Was literally just coming back to post that 2nd set of pics on the left screenshot position from your swing vid.  All the mental tricks in the world wasn't going to help you hit a ball consistently online from there.  

Glad you may be on the way to figuring how to change that.

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#30 PepsiDuck

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:43 PM

View PostNotForeLong, on 11 April 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Totally agree with the above. This new “plan” isn’t gonna work if you keep doing what you’ve been doing. The swings from 2014 and 2018 are not that different, and I guarantee you’ll keep going in circles if you keep analyzing your swing and trying to shoehorn random instructor’s theories into. How were you working with a “GG/DD instructor” for 8 months without discussing why you weren’t rotating? Did the instructor not notice it? Additionally, chasing ideals such as “body-oriented” and thinking you need to be wide open shows me that, to be frank, you don’t understand what’s going in a golf swing on beyond a very superficial level. You don’t need to in order to swing well, but I’d say right now you know just enough to cause harm to your swing and nothing more.

It sounds as though you’ve had some good instruction before, what ended up happening as a result of that? Were your good shots at last getting better when you were doing what the instructor said? If they were, it’s likely that real improvement was going to follow if you had seen the changes through. You are never going to improve if you are constantly changing things on a whim based on threads started here or seen on YouTube. If that’s what you must do, then my advice is not to pay for lessons, because you’d just be wasting your money. If you want to get better on the other hand, my advice would be to find a teacher you trust, and go to them as a blank slate. Don’t tell them what your claim to be working on or what you want to accomplish specifically. Just him some shots in front of them having no swing thoughts.  You are talented enough to do this just fine. Then work on what they say and only that, no YouTube or anything else.  I understand that this is not how you like to approach things analytically, but the current way ain’t working.

Sorry to be harsh, but based on other posts and this thread you seem smart and dedicated, and IMO it’s only your approach to improving as a golfer that is getting in your way, and honestly I doubt you’ll ever get much better if you keep the current approach.  If you do try a different way, you have more than enough talent to get pretty damn good IMO.

The two swings may look the same, but they certainly feel completely different to me. I guess that's a testament to the "feel isn't real" idea. With the instruction, my good shots stayed about the same, but my bad shots got worse and occurred more often. From the 3 handicap, I "improved" to a 15 USGA handicap. It's been up and down since then, leveling off at an 8.

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