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Pepsi Duck's Golf Thread: How Do You Approach Playing Lessons? (p. 11 #318)


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#121 Senfan

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:24 PM

Hey Pepsi, have you ever tried the hand shake drill swing thought? I remember having full swing yips, and this was something that really helped me. It s an easy swing thought to use on the course and it keeps the body well connected for me at least. It is something I always fall back on when my game gets out of control.


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#122 Jim Waldron

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 14 April 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 April 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

You need to seriously consider the very real possibility that you have the full swing yips, in spite of your acknowledged and also very real right elbow flaw on Transition. Puring it on the range and then missing it badly as soon as you step onto the course is one of the first diagnostic questions I ask new students who come to work with me who think they may have the yips. If the answer is yes, it is almost a certainty they have the yips.

I recommend boiling it down to just those two things - and literally nothing else for the next 6 months. Fix the right arm/elbow out of position issue - which will require a ton of slow mo reps focusing on the second half of your backswing, where you pull the arms in and across and around as you complete the backswing. Meaning you need to maintain your Triangle arm pressures during this stage of the swing, stay wide and in front of the right side of your chest. That will help a lot with the Transition issue, ie no need so much to move the arms "back in front" if they are already "in front" to start with.

Then work on Transition, again maintain the Triangle arm pressures so the momentum from your lower body pivot/shift left does not leak into your upper arms too much and cause too much arm lag. Work on firing your core and Tilt Switching, which will bring the arms down and forward, what I often call the "Pilates move" since it is the exact same muscle firing sequence in a very common Pilates Reformer machine exercise.  Your scapula thing could very well be just lack of that move and not so much the scapula retraction itself.

Part Two is to fix the yip issue, and associated mental game issues, ie wandering mind, too much analysis, too much "monitoring" from a judgemental mindset, learning to trust your range swing while playing golf, so you can take it to the course and let it perform the way it does on the range.

Although it may not be possible for you to actually do both simultaneously over 6 months. Might have to do the mechanical work first, until you see some moderate progress at a minimum, and then work on the yips stuff.

Jim,

Thanks again for your quality feedback and wisdom.  I always appreciate the time you take when responding in my threads; it hasn't gone unnoticed.

I have definitely considered that I not only have full swing yips, but full-on golf yips as reflected by my short game...though that may just be a result of a lack of focus from the frustrations of my full swing.  I absolutely agree with you that my primary mechanical concern should be the right elbow at transition.  I think it's a combination of a backswing that initially moves the right elbow behind me and a transition that further exacerbates it.  Rather than address P1 through P4, my primary focus has been to recover from P4 through P6.

I have difficulty understanding how a single swing thought, when successful on the range, offers no positive result on the course.  My natural instinct is to think there is something just slightly off that isn't addressed by the swing thought.  So I may be executing my intent correctly, but something that may be totally unrelated is off enough to throw the whole swing into disarray.  That then leads me down the rabbit hole of questioning whether my original intent was incorrect while completely unaware of the something else that caused the poor swing.  Someone earlier in the thread mentioned my over-attention to minutia, and this is exactly why...

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

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#123 Mike Divot

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:07 PM

Cue OP saying yes I tried that, but after I hit one bad shot I knew it wasn't right for me, so I concentrated on subluximating my metatarsil neopropylism to help shallow the bisected elbow/coccyx plane.

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#124 NotForeLong

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:24 PM

View PostMike Divot, on 15 April 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

Cue OP saying yes I tried that, but after I hit one bad shot I knew it wasn't right for me, so I concentrated on subluximating my metatarsil neopropylism to help shallow the bisected elbow/coccyx plane.

To be fair, I think chasing different mechanics and trying to find the ultimate fix is what OP enjoys about the game. It also sounds like he knows thatís not good for his game, but this is a hobby, and if thatís what he enjoys about the hobby, more power to him.

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#125 PepsiDuck

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:30 AM

View PostJim Waldron, on 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

That's a good point about threat.  However, I don't necessarily see the golf course or the worry of hitting the ball OB and shooting a bad score as a threat; instead, it's property damage and personal injury that I see as "threats."  I was living near Palm Springs at the time when I started on this little journey, and as you know, most of the courses are lined with houses.  After hitting a number of houses during my first few rounds there, my first thought whenever I stepped on a tee box was whether there were any houses in play.  It helped when I learned that California applies assumption of risk to homeowners and that I would not be at fault for accidentally hitting a house with an errant drive, but that fear was still there.  Thoughts of the PGA West Stadium Course still haunts me to this day...

About two years ago, I was playing with my wife, and she was standing at the red tee box while I was teeing off at my tee box.  I hit a line drive pull hook that hit her bag that was sitting a couple feet away from her.  Getting hit with a 160 mph ball on the fly would probably hurt.  So add to my tee box pre shot routine: are people in play?

And finally, when I moved to the Virginia area last fall, during one of my first rounds at my new home course, I hit a pulled tee shot on a par 3 with a 7-iron that flew onto a no-sh*t interstate highway during rush hour.  I'm not sure if any damage was done, but I'm pretty sure that I'd be liable.  I recall about a month ago when I was in Hawaii playing at Ko' Olina where they just played the LPGA event (I just realized this is where you teach).  There is a short ~140 yard par 3 with the waterfalls in front and an adjacent road running about 50 yards left of the hole.  I managed to hit two tee shots onto the road.  I can clearly recall the gray Mustang that I almost hit like it was yesterday.  So the third step is: are roads in play?  If so, are there cars driving on that road?  If so, wait until traffic clears.

So now that you mention the idea of threat, it makes a lot of sense that I almost definitely have a flinch of some kind.  I fear the left miss, so I'm sure my body does something between transition and impact to try not to hit left...which inadvertently makes the ball go more left.

Looks like I may be contacting you soon to talk about some of these exercises...... :lol:

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#126 Jim Waldron

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:28 AM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 16 April 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

That's a good point about threat.  However, I don't necessarily see the golf course or the worry of hitting the ball OB and shooting a bad score as a threat; instead, it's property damage and personal injury that I see as "threats."  I was living near Palm Springs at the time when I started on this little journey, and as you know, most of the courses are lined with houses.  After hitting a number of houses during my first few rounds there, my first thought whenever I stepped on a tee box was whether there were any houses in play.  It helped when I learned that California applies assumption of risk to homeowners and that I would not be at fault for accidentally hitting a house with an errant drive, but that fear was still there.  Thoughts of the PGA West Stadium Course still haunts me to this day...

About two years ago, I was playing with my wife, and she was standing at the red tee box while I was teeing off at my tee box.  I hit a line drive pull hook that hit her bag that was sitting a couple feet away from her.  Getting hit with a 160 mph ball on the fly would probably hurt.  So add to my tee box pre shot routine: are people in play?

And finally, when I moved to the Virginia area last fall, during one of my first rounds at my new home course, I hit a pulled tee shot on a par 3 with a 7-iron that flew onto a no-sh*t interstate highway during rush hour.  I'm not sure if any damage was done, but I'm pretty sure that I'd be liable.  I recall about a month ago when I was in Hawaii playing at Ko' Olina where they just played the LPGA event (I just realized this is where you teach).  There is a short ~140 yard par 3 with the waterfalls in front and an adjacent road running about 50 yards left of the hole.  I managed to hit two tee shots onto the road.  I can clearly recall the gray Mustang that I almost hit like it was yesterday.  So the third step is: are roads in play?  If so, are there cars driving on that road?  If so, wait until traffic clears.

So now that you mention the idea of threat, it makes a lot of sense that I almost definitely have a flinch of some kind.  I fear the left miss, so I'm sure my body does something between transition and impact to try not to hit left...which inadvertently makes the ball go more left.

Looks like I may be contacting you soon to talk about some of these exercises...... :lol:

Yeah, I know the waterfall hole, first time I ever played it about 15 years ago, I too tugged one onto the road and just missed hitting a car!

The interesting thing about the threat thing is this - you may not even consciously perceive the "threat". It can be just kind of a very vague and very mild feeling of discomfort in your mind or body. But if your subconscious does in fact see threats of any kind on the golf course, your body will react by flinching in some way.

I am 100% convinced you have a full blown case of full swing yips, and working only on the elbow flaw will not address that issue. It will likely make your range shots better, but you need to fix the yips to get your on course game where you want it to be.

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#127 Obee

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:00 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 14 April 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 April 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

You need to seriously consider the very real possibility that you have the full swing yips, in spite of your acknowledged and also very real right elbow flaw on Transition. Puring it on the range and then missing it badly as soon as you step onto the course is one of the first diagnostic questions I ask new students who come to work with me who think they may have the yips. If the answer is yes, it is almost a certainty they have the yips.

I recommend boiling it down to just those two things - and literally nothing else for the next 6 months. Fix the right arm/elbow out of position issue - which will require a ton of slow mo reps focusing on the second half of your backswing, where you pull the arms in and across and around as you complete the backswing. Meaning you need to maintain your Triangle arm pressures during this stage of the swing, stay wide and in front of the right side of your chest. That will help a lot with the Transition issue, ie no need so much to move the arms "back in front" if they are already "in front" to start with.

Then work on Transition, again maintain the Triangle arm pressures so the momentum from your lower body pivot/shift left does not leak into your upper arms too much and cause too much arm lag. Work on firing your core and Tilt Switching, which will bring the arms down and forward, what I often call the "Pilates move" since it is the exact same muscle firing sequence in a very common Pilates Reformer machine exercise.  Your scapula thing could very well be just lack of that move and not so much the scapula retraction itself.

Part Two is to fix the yip issue, and associated mental game issues, ie wandering mind, too much analysis, too much "monitoring" from a judgemental mindset, learning to trust your range swing while playing golf, so you can take it to the course and let it perform the way it does on the range.

Although it may not be possible for you to actually do both simultaneously over 6 months. Might have to do the mechanical work first, until you see some moderate progress at a minimum, and then work on the yips stuff.

Jim,

Thanks again for your quality feedback and wisdom.  I always appreciate the time you take when responding in my threads; it hasn't gone unnoticed.

I have definitely considered that I not only have full swing yips, but full-on golf yips as reflected by my short game...though that may just be a result of a lack of focus from the frustrations of my full swing.  I absolutely agree with you that my primary mechanical concern should be the right elbow at transition.  I think it's a combination of a backswing that initially moves the right elbow behind me and a transition that further exacerbates it.  Rather than address P1 through P4, my primary focus has been to recover from P4 through P6.

I have difficulty understanding how a single swing thought, when successful on the range, offers no positive result on the course.  My natural instinct is to think there is something just slightly off that isn't addressed by the swing thought.  So I may be executing my intent correctly, but something that may be totally unrelated is off enough to throw the whole swing into disarray.  That then leads me down the rabbit hole of questioning whether my original intent was incorrect while completely unaware of the something else that caused the poor swing.  Someone earlier in the thread mentioned my over-attention to minutia, and this is exactly why...

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

God I love this, Jim. Changing my mindset is exactly how I became a better competitive player. I am certainly not perfect, but I am far, far better under pressure and in tournament play then I ever was before. And I got there by changing my mindset -- especially when putting. I am such a better putter in tournament play now, it's like I am a different golfer.

I freed myself up to notice what was happening without judgment. Just notice.

Now, once I have prepared to putt, when the ball leaves my putter, I follow it along on its journey paying attention only to the roll of the ball, not even caring if the ball goes in or not. It is a place I didn't think I would ever get to.

I used to be so emotionally invested in whether or not the ball went in, that I never paid attention to what was actually going on. I didn't pay attention to myself, my body, the greens themselves, or anything else. As the ball approached the hole, I would be anxious and twitch, hoping that the ball would fall in somehow.

Now, for instance, if the ball runs 5 feet past the hole on a 15 footer. I simply notice the ball as it rolls by the hole, trying to learn something about the comebacker I'm about to have. I'll say something simple to myself like "Wow, hit that one a bit aggressively, didn't we?"

But there is no judgment involved. I don't suddenly think my speed control is horrible. I don't think I'm a bad putter. I don't get mad at myself for not noticing that I was a bit downhill when I thought I was level.

I just make a mental note that the greens may be a bit quicker than I thought. Or I re-analyze my pre-shot routine and why I didn't catch the fact that I was a bit downhill. But I can only do this if I stop judging myself. If I am not angry at myself, I am free to learn from the moment.

It is amazing what that level of calm can bring to your golf game.

And calmness leads to better golf -- for all of us.

Edited by Obee, 16 April 2018 - 04:34 PM.

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#128 thegooddoctor

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:47 PM

Mr Quack,

I set a 3 year goal of scratch on limited time (playing about 1.5 times a week practicing at lunch 2 days a week) that ends this summer. I started at 5.4, and currently have gotten down to 3.1. At the beginning I went to local pro stated my goals to set realistic expectations. we made some very big changes and in about 2 months my handicap was a smooth 6.8. I was a big flipper/ee to start. After the initial work to make big changes where a lot of technical talk and thoughts (1 at a time where I got worse instead of better because parts of new not compatible with old ) were used, we almost never talk about positions any more. Mostly we talk strategy and misses, he will check t me on flight scope and we will check ball flight/ impact stuff and then talk about how to maximize what we have now but no new swing changes at this point. I saw video from the beginning of this to now and to be very honest my swing is not much different. Release is way less flippy and a little shorter but honestly not sure I could tell much difference despite a big change in ball flight results.  The point here is having 1 person means the relationship evolves over time to more second set of eyes/ check ups instead of constant rebuild. Even when pros make a change their swings don't look a lot different, the swing is what it is once you move from beginner to novice player, thats why pros look so different on the way back from each other and really only look the same right before and right after impact. Instead of worrying about positions, worry about moves that get the ball to do what you want it to do.

Your swing is just fine, work on shape. I would recommend finding a shot shape that you like and feels natural and find a way to only hit that shot shape the majority of the time. You may sacrifice a little distance but I bet you don't shoot 99 with that. If that's not your cup of tea, then I would advise no long game work at all, only short game until you start breaking 80 again. I am serious here, one of my best friends went from scratch to a 14 in a summer due to playing swing instead of golf. It is very very very hard to do that. This was 5 years ago, finally 2 years ago he stopped taking lessons (similar build to you, 5'3" and has a 118 driver SS) and only worked on short game hit shots from every funky lie, bunker, putt etc and he said it got him to stop caring what his positions were. He is back to a 5 and a damn good 5 now and a much happier golfer.

In all seriousness good luck, I think engineers and golf are a bad mix because of exactly the mental hurdles you have created

Edited by thegooddoctor, 16 April 2018 - 05:50 PM.

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#129 PepsiDuck

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:20 PM

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

God I love this, Jim. Changing my mindset is exactly how I became a better competitive player. I am certainly not perfect, but I am far, far better under pressure and in tournament play then I ever was before. And I got there by changing my mindset -- especially when putting. I am such a better putter in tournament play now, it's like I am a different golfer.

I freed myself up to notice what was happening without judgment. Just notice.

Now, once I have prepared to putt, when the ball leaves my putter, I follow it along on its journey paying attention only to the roll of the ball, not even caring if the ball goes in or not. It is a place I didn't think I would ever get to.

I used to be so emotionally invested in whether or not the ball went in, that I never paid attention to what was actually going on. I didn't pay attention to myself, my body, the greens themselves, or anything else. As the ball approached the hole, I would be anxious and twitch, hoping that the ball would fall in somehow.

Now, for instance, if the ball runs 5 feet past the hole on a 15 footer. I simply notice the ball as it rolls by the hole, trying to learn something about the comebacker I'm about to have. I'll say something simple to myself like "Wow, hit that one a bit aggressively, didn't we?"

But there is no judgment involved. I don't suddenly think my speed control is horrible. I don't think I'm a bad putter. I don't get mad at myself for not noticing that I was a bit downhill when I thought I was level.

I just make a mental note that the greens may be a bit quicker than I thought. Or I re-analyze my pre-shot routine and why I didn't catch the fact that I was a bit downhill. But I can only do this if I stop judging myself. If I am not angry at myself, I am free to learn from the moment.

It is amazing what that level of calm can bring to your golf game.

And calmness leads to better golf -- for all of us.

Obee, thanks for the message and good to hear from you.  This sounds a lot like what is recommended in the Nilsson/Marriott book, "Be a Player," when you react to a less-than-ideal shot.  You say one purely objective observation about the shot, e.g., the greens are quicker than I thought or this putt was downhill; and you say one positive thing about your process/routine/etc, e.g., I now know the break on the 5-footer coming back.

As you said, no negative judgment about your planning or execution of the shot.
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#130 PepsiDuck

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:46 PM

I'd like to thank everyone again for their kind (and not so kind) feedback.  My intent is not to throw a pity party or create unnecessary drama, although it sometimes sounds like it... :dntknw:

After talking extensively with drewtaylor21 and robrey85, I feel I have a pretty solid short term plan to address my single most disruptive mechanical issue: that d*mn right elbow getting trapped behind my body.  My near term goal is to be in a better position at P4 so I don't have to make compensatory moves at transition.  I have some simple takeaway and backswing thoughts (complete with all the minutia I need) that will ensure my right elbow stays in front of my body at the top.  I've received some reference videos, drills for the range, and instructions on slow-motion practice indoors to work with over the next month.  

Today was "Day 1" of this new stuff, and I'm cautiously optimistic based on the results.  My right shoulder was sore as hell after the range session, but I was assured that continued reps will help loosen up all the muscles, joints, and fixin's in that region.  I've also started using video for immediate feedback, which I had never done before out of sheer laziness.  I understand that for an issue like this, it's vital to link the feel of the right elbow (or pain) with a physical position relative to the body.  I might *think* my right elbow is in a good position, only to find out nothing has changed.  :lol:

Additionally, I plan on working with Jim Waldron on the mental aspect; specifically his Remote Yips Cure Program.  Based on the discussion in this thread, I'm now convinced that this is not solely a mechanics issue.  I want to work with the new mechanics for a couple weeks before I get started with Jim.  I've worked with him before, albeit a single Skype lesson, but I'm looking forward to hearing more about overcoming this issue.

EDIT: Finally, I have some basic physical therapy exercises to strengthen the muscles of the rotator cuff (infraspinatus, supraspinatus, and thereís major/minor). They are laughably weak, and strengthening them should help with right elbow efforts.

Edited by PepsiDuck, 16 April 2018 - 10:46 PM.

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#131 oikos1

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:25 PM

Giddy-up PepsiDuck!  Looking forward to updates on P-4 position and Jim Waldron's "Remote Yips Cure Program".

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#132 Obee

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:27 PM

Have you ever thought of a Jon Rahm length backswing?
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#133 PepsiDuck

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 10:44 PM

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Have you ever thought of a Jon Rahm length backswing?

Yes. I find his swing really appealing, but it will take a minor miracle, or 1000s of reps, to eliminate the arm overrun I currently have. Shortening the backswing is definitely part of the plan, though it may not get Rahm-short.
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#134 Jim Waldron

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 05:09 PM

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 14 April 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 April 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

You need to seriously consider the very real possibility that you have the full swing yips, in spite of your acknowledged and also very real right elbow flaw on Transition. Puring it on the range and then missing it badly as soon as you step onto the course is one of the first diagnostic questions I ask new students who come to work with me who think they may have the yips. If the answer is yes, it is almost a certainty they have the yips.

I recommend boiling it down to just those two things - and literally nothing else for the next 6 months. Fix the right arm/elbow out of position issue - which will require a ton of slow mo reps focusing on the second half of your backswing, where you pull the arms in and across and around as you complete the backswing. Meaning you need to maintain your Triangle arm pressures during this stage of the swing, stay wide and in front of the right side of your chest. That will help a lot with the Transition issue, ie no need so much to move the arms "back in front" if they are already "in front" to start with.

Then work on Transition, again maintain the Triangle arm pressures so the momentum from your lower body pivot/shift left does not leak into your upper arms too much and cause too much arm lag. Work on firing your core and Tilt Switching, which will bring the arms down and forward, what I often call the "Pilates move" since it is the exact same muscle firing sequence in a very common Pilates Reformer machine exercise.  Your scapula thing could very well be just lack of that move and not so much the scapula retraction itself.

Part Two is to fix the yip issue, and associated mental game issues, ie wandering mind, too much analysis, too much "monitoring" from a judgemental mindset, learning to trust your range swing while playing golf, so you can take it to the course and let it perform the way it does on the range.

Although it may not be possible for you to actually do both simultaneously over 6 months. Might have to do the mechanical work first, until you see some moderate progress at a minimum, and then work on the yips stuff.

Jim,

Thanks again for your quality feedback and wisdom.  I always appreciate the time you take when responding in my threads; it hasn't gone unnoticed.

I have definitely considered that I not only have full swing yips, but full-on golf yips as reflected by my short game...though that may just be a result of a lack of focus from the frustrations of my full swing.  I absolutely agree with you that my primary mechanical concern should be the right elbow at transition.  I think it's a combination of a backswing that initially moves the right elbow behind me and a transition that further exacerbates it.  Rather than address P1 through P4, my primary focus has been to recover from P4 through P6.

I have difficulty understanding how a single swing thought, when successful on the range, offers no positive result on the course.  My natural instinct is to think there is something just slightly off that isn't addressed by the swing thought.  So I may be executing my intent correctly, but something that may be totally unrelated is off enough to throw the whole swing into disarray.  That then leads me down the rabbit hole of questioning whether my original intent was incorrect while completely unaware of the something else that caused the poor swing.  Someone earlier in the thread mentioned my over-attention to minutia, and this is exactly why...

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

God I love this, Jim. Changing my mindset is exactly how I became a better competitive player. I am certainly not perfect, but I am far, far better under pressure and in tournament play then I ever was before. And I got there by changing my mindset -- especially when putting. I am such a better putter in tournament play now, it's like I am a different golfer.

I freed myself up to notice what was happening without judgment. Just notice.

Now, once I have prepared to putt, when the ball leaves my putter, I follow it along on its journey paying attention only to the roll of the ball, not even caring if the ball goes in or not. It is a place I didn't think I would ever get to.

I used to be so emotionally invested in whether or not the ball went in, that I never paid attention to what was actually going on. I didn't pay attention to myself, my body, the greens themselves, or anything else. As the ball approached the hole, I would be anxious and twitch, hoping that the ball would fall in somehow.

Now, for instance, if the ball runs 5 feet past the hole on a 15 footer. I simply notice the ball as it rolls by the hole, trying to learn something about the comebacker I'm about to have. I'll say something simple to myself like "Wow, hit that one a bit aggressively, didn't we?"

But there is no judgment involved. I don't suddenly think my speed control is horrible. I don't think I'm a bad putter. I don't get mad at myself for not noticing that I was a bit downhill when I thought I was level.

I just make a mental note that the greens may be a bit quicker than I thought. Or I re-analyze my pre-shot routine and why I didn't catch the fact that I was a bit downhill. But I can only do this if I stop judging myself. If I am not angry at myself, I am free to learn from the moment.

It is amazing what that level of calm can bring to your golf game.

And calmness leads to better golf -- for all of us.

Brilliant post, Obee - you nailed it!

Perfect description of the most essential skill in golf (in fact without at least some of this, pretty tough to achieve all the other skills!) which is non-judgemental passive Meta-Awareness. Meaning your mind observes your state - mental, physical and emotional - like a scientist trying to discover a basic truth about reality, by closely paying attention to whatever is happening right in front of you, without any emotional reactivity or mental chatter.

In my view, this transcends golf and is very likely one of the most important skills that distinguishes high functioning humans from dysfunctional humans.

Students ask me all the time, "Jim - I get the importance of your Deep Insight or 'light bulb moment' concept as the starting point for making swing changes effectively, but what can I do to achieve that kind off insight?" and the answer is simply "pay attention".

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#135 Redpro

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 06:38 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 17 April 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 15 April 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

View PostPepsiDuck, on 14 April 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 14 April 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

You need to seriously consider the very real possibility that you have the full swing yips, in spite of your acknowledged and also very real right elbow flaw on Transition. Puring it on the range and then missing it badly as soon as you step onto the course is one of the first diagnostic questions I ask new students who come to work with me who think they may have the yips. If the answer is yes, it is almost a certainty they have the yips.

I recommend boiling it down to just those two things - and literally nothing else for the next 6 months. Fix the right arm/elbow out of position issue - which will require a ton of slow mo reps focusing on the second half of your backswing, where you pull the arms in and across and around as you complete the backswing. Meaning you need to maintain your Triangle arm pressures during this stage of the swing, stay wide and in front of the right side of your chest. That will help a lot with the Transition issue, ie no need so much to move the arms "back in front" if they are already "in front" to start with.

Then work on Transition, again maintain the Triangle arm pressures so the momentum from your lower body pivot/shift left does not leak into your upper arms too much and cause too much arm lag. Work on firing your core and Tilt Switching, which will bring the arms down and forward, what I often call the "Pilates move" since it is the exact same muscle firing sequence in a very common Pilates Reformer machine exercise.  Your scapula thing could very well be just lack of that move and not so much the scapula retraction itself.

Part Two is to fix the yip issue, and associated mental game issues, ie wandering mind, too much analysis, too much "monitoring" from a judgemental mindset, learning to trust your range swing while playing golf, so you can take it to the course and let it perform the way it does on the range.

Although it may not be possible for you to actually do both simultaneously over 6 months. Might have to do the mechanical work first, until you see some moderate progress at a minimum, and then work on the yips stuff.

Jim,

Thanks again for your quality feedback and wisdom.  I always appreciate the time you take when responding in my threads; it hasn't gone unnoticed.

I have definitely considered that I not only have full swing yips, but full-on golf yips as reflected by my short game...though that may just be a result of a lack of focus from the frustrations of my full swing.  I absolutely agree with you that my primary mechanical concern should be the right elbow at transition.  I think it's a combination of a backswing that initially moves the right elbow behind me and a transition that further exacerbates it.  Rather than address P1 through P4, my primary focus has been to recover from P4 through P6.

I have difficulty understanding how a single swing thought, when successful on the range, offers no positive result on the course.  My natural instinct is to think there is something just slightly off that isn't addressed by the swing thought.  So I may be executing my intent correctly, but something that may be totally unrelated is off enough to throw the whole swing into disarray.  That then leads me down the rabbit hole of questioning whether my original intent was incorrect while completely unaware of the something else that caused the poor swing.  Someone earlier in the thread mentioned my over-attention to minutia, and this is exactly why...

Your mistake is in always going to your default mode of concluding that the thing that is "just slightly off" is in fact mechanics. You are totally ignoring that the thing that is off is actually your mindset, a blend of your emotional state and your mental focus/awareness.

When you ( and most golfers and all golfers with the yips)  walk onto the first tee, your "state" (mindset) changes - for the worse.

I guarantee you that if you had a moderate amount of "Meta-Awareness" - which is the ability to notice what your 'state" is without judgement - you would be shocked at how totally different that 'state" is on the golf course compared to the range.  The brain/subconscious mind has a rather larger program dedicated to scanning the environment for any "threats". When a threat is detected, the stress reflex kicks in, which triggers the yips in golfers, or even a milder kind of yips we call "flinching". Golfers succumb to the internally-generated "pressure" of playing this very difficult game in a very penal on course environment by flinching, or in severe cases, yipping.

On the range, there is literally no threat. It is why you hit it great there, in spite of your right elbow flaw. Your brain is able to tell the body how to compensate (unconsciously) for the elbow flaw on the range, since the lack of threat allows your brain to feel safe and secure and totally dedicated to the task of creating those micro-moves of compensation for the swing flaw. That ability to successfully manage the micro-moves does not transfer to the course.

Part of how I help golfers overcome the yips is a series of exercises designed to re-train the mind/brain to no longer view the golf course as a threat.

God I love this, Jim. Changing my mindset is exactly how I became a better competitive player. I am certainly not perfect, but I am far, far better under pressure and in tournament play then I ever was before. And I got there by changing my mindset -- especially when putting. I am such a better putter in tournament play now, it's like I am a different golfer.

I freed myself up to notice what was happening without judgment. Just notice.

Now, once I have prepared to putt, when the ball leaves my putter, I follow it along on its journey paying attention only to the roll of the ball, not even caring if the ball goes in or not. It is a place I didn't think I would ever get to.

I used to be so emotionally invested in whether or not the ball went in, that I never paid attention to what was actually going on. I didn't pay attention to myself, my body, the greens themselves, or anything else. As the ball approached the hole, I would be anxious and twitch, hoping that the ball would fall in somehow.

Now, for instance, if the ball runs 5 feet past the hole on a 15 footer. I simply notice the ball as it rolls by the hole, trying to learn something about the comebacker I'm about to have. I'll say something simple to myself like "Wow, hit that one a bit aggressively, didn't we?"

But there is no judgment involved. I don't suddenly think my speed control is horrible. I don't think I'm a bad putter. I don't get mad at myself for not noticing that I was a bit downhill when I thought I was level.

I just make a mental note that the greens may be a bit quicker than I thought. Or I re-analyze my pre-shot routine and why I didn't catch the fact that I was a bit downhill. But I can only do this if I stop judging myself. If I am not angry at myself, I am free to learn from the moment.

It is amazing what that level of calm can bring to your golf game.

And calmness leads to better golf -- for all of us.

Brilliant post, Obee - you nailed it!

Perfect description of the most essential skill in golf (in fact without at least some of this, pretty tough to achieve all the other skills!) which is non-judgemental passive Meta-Awareness. Meaning your mind observes your state - mental, physical and emotional - like a scientist trying to discover a basic truth about reality, by closely paying attention to whatever is happening right in front of you, without any emotional reactivity or mental chatter.

In my view, this transcends golf and is very likely one of the most important skills that distinguishes high functioning humans from dysfunctional humans.

Students ask me all the time, "Jim - I get the importance of your Deep Insight or 'light bulb moment' concept as the starting point for making swing changes effectively, but what can I do to achieve that kind off insight?" and the answer is simply "pay attention".

"The Inner Game of Golf" addresses this concept also. I'm on my second reading of it. Tim Galway calls it Self 1 (the guy with all the technical know how, the guy who always wants to tell you how to do something and then judge you) and Self 2 (the guy who knows how to do it instinctively). Left alone, Self 2 is a player. He also discusses why we play a physical game (golf) that requires concentration. Why we play; to impress someone else, to beat someone else, to master ourselves, to just play and enjoy. We have to decide what game we are playing within the game.

Thank you both, Jim and Obee for your bringing this electrified thread back down to earth. :)


15

#136 oikos1

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 08:56 PM

"Non-judgemental Passive Meta-Awareness"

Fanflippingtastic!  I know I've achieved this I just can't remember when.

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#137 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:03 AM

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Have you ever thought of a Jon Rahm length backswing?

After another range session, review of swing videos, and some discussions with the group, I think I have a better understanding of the factors that affect backswing length.  Based on my current swing, it would be extremely difficult to produce a "Rahm-length" backswing.  First, the separation of my elbows, beginning at P3, places my arms in a position where momentum of the backswing and inertia from a lower body transition will cause arm over run every time.  Even if I *feel* like I'm stopping at P3 and hitting little chip shots, video repeatedly shows that even while my body and shoulders stop turning, my arms keep going back.  When the right shoulder/arm is internally rotated at P3, it's very hard to control the length of the backswing.  However, when the right shoulder/arm is more externally rotated at P3 (right forearm vertical), the backswing seems to stop itself.  Even with an aggressive transition, a properly positioned right elbow shouldn't get trapped behind the body.

So long story short, shortening the backswing length and reducing arm over run is an effect of proper arm mechanics, rather than something I can consciously control.  A good checkpoint is at P3, where my right elbow should be pointing straight down, rather than canted to the outside.
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#138 Millbrook

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:13 AM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 18 April 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Have you ever thought of a Jon Rahm length backswing?

After another range session, review of swing videos, and some discussions with the group, I think I have a better understanding of the factors that affect backswing length.  Based on my current swing, it would be extremely difficult to produce a "Rahm-length" backswing.  First, the separation of my elbows, beginning at P3, places my arms in a position where momentum of the backswing and inertia from a lower body transition will cause arm over run every time.  Even if I *feel* like I'm stopping at P3 and hitting little chip shots, video repeatedly shows that even while my body and shoulders stop turning, my arms keep going back.  When the right shoulder/arm is internally rotated at P3, it's very hard to control the length of the backswing.  However, when the right shoulder/arm is more externally rotated at P3 (right forearm vertical), the backswing seems to stop itself.  Even with an aggressive transition, a properly positioned right elbow shouldn't get trapped behind the body.

So long story short, shortening the backswing length and reducing arm over run is an effect of proper arm mechanics, rather than something I can consciously control.  A good checkpoint is at P3, where my right elbow should be pointing straight down, rather than canted to the outside.

This really isn't meant unkindly but you have identified the excessive backswing in the past and been given the advice about a properly positioned right elbow before. Did you just have to see it for yourself on video?
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18

#139 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 10:32 AM

View PostMillbrook, on 18 April 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

This really isn't meant unkindly but you have identified the excessive backswing in the past and been given the advice about a properly positioned right elbow before. Did you just have to see it for yourself on video?

I've always been aware of that right elbow being an issue, both in feel and on video.  I went through two stages before this: First, I mitigated it at transition by consciously getting the right elbow back out in front of my body.  Later, in a misguided self-taught attempt at the GG method, I was under the impression that the flying right elbow would automatically return to a good position at P5 with a lower body transition.  I was wrong.

Neither of these efforts really corrected the position of the right elbow at P3.  They were just attempts to compensate for an improperly positioned right elbow at P3/P4.  Now that I have definitive checkpoints and use video for immediate feedback, I can associate visual checkpoints with internal feels.  And it's pretty easy right now, because a properly positioned right elbow at P3 is actually quite painful...so if I'm not feeling some degree of pain (the good kind, I think) in my right shoulder, I'm still doing it wrong... :lol:
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19

#140 Millbrook

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:07 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 18 April 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 18 April 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

This really isn't meant unkindly but you have identified the excessive backswing in the past and been given the advice about a properly positioned right elbow before. Did you just have to see it for yourself on video?

I've always been aware of that right elbow being an issue, both in feel and on video.  I went through two stages before this: First, I mitigated it at transition by consciously getting the right elbow back out in front of my body.  Later, in a misguided self-taught attempt at the GG method, I was under the impression that the flying right elbow would automatically return to a good position at P5 with a lower body transition.  I was wrong.

Neither of these efforts really corrected the position of the right elbow at P3.  They were just attempts to compensate for an improperly positioned right elbow at P3/P4.  Now that I have definitive checkpoints and use video for immediate feedback, I can associate visual checkpoints with internal feels.  And it's pretty easy right now, because a properly positioned right elbow at P3 is actually quite painful...so if I'm not feeling some degree of pain (the good kind, I think) in my right shoulder, I'm still doing it wrong... :lol:

Thanks for taking it the way it was meant. I commented because the lead with the right elbow approach makes a big difference to me but I'm puzzled why feel some degree of pain. We are all different in build and flexibility but the right elbow position is so 'natural' in the normal range of motion that I'm surprised by the pain.

My feel is the right elbow moves to the trail hip - diagonally not straight down, and the hip gets out of the way for impact.

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#141 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:40 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 18 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

Thanks for taking it the way it was meant. I commented because the lead with the right elbow approach makes a big difference to me but I'm puzzled why feel some degree of pain. We are all different in build and flexibility but the right elbow position is so 'natural' in the normal range of motion that I'm surprised by the pain.

My feel is the right elbow moves to the trail hip - diagonally not straight down, and the hip gets out of the way for impact.

I relied on this intent for a long time...but instead of the trail hip, I focused on trying to get the right elbow into the lead hip while keeping the hips closed for as long as possible so that the arms could catch up.  But in the end, this only led to inconsistency and what appears to be some pretty severe full swing yips.

The pain is due to relatively weak extensor muscles in the rotator cuff region and years of swinging with free internal rotation in the right shoulder.  My body has to become accustomed to an entirely new path of motion.
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#142 moehogan

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 03:57 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 18 April 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 18 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

Thanks for taking it the way it was meant. I commented because the lead with the right elbow approach makes a big difference to me but I'm puzzled why feel some degree of pain. We are all different in build and flexibility but the right elbow position is so 'natural' in the normal range of motion that I'm surprised by the pain.

My feel is the right elbow moves to the trail hip - diagonally not straight down, and the hip gets out of the way for impact.

I relied on this intent for a long time...but instead of the trail hip, I focused on trying to get the right elbow into the lead hip while keeping the hips closed for as long as possible so that the arms could catch up.  But in the end, this only led to inconsistency and what appears to be some pretty severe full swing yips.

The pain is due to relatively weak extensor muscles in the rotator cuff region and years of swinging with free internal rotation in the right shoulder.  My body has to become accustomed to an entirely new path of motion.

Instead of trying to move the elbow, focus on rotating or winding the ENTIRE right arm clockwise from P4 (or a little earlier) to P6 while extending the right wrist.  The CW winding will externally rotate the right shoulder causing the right elbow to lead the right hand and the clubhead to fall behind the right arm (flatten).

A little simultaneous CCW winding of the left arm will provide some counterbalance to keep the clubface from getting too open ... this opposing force will also flatten the left wrist or bow it.  Hand path is out, down and forward and LOW by P6.  From P6 to P7, the club tumbles as both forearms rotate CCW to square the clubface.

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#143 PowderedToastMan

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 05:49 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 18 April 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 16 April 2018 - 10:27 PM, said:

Have you ever thought of a Jon Rahm length backswing?

After another range session, review of swing videos, and some discussions with the group, I think I have a better understanding of the factors that affect backswing length.  Based on my current swing, it would be extremely difficult to produce a "Rahm-length" backswing.  First, the separation of my elbows, beginning at P3, places my arms in a position where momentum of the backswing and inertia from a lower body transition will cause arm over run every time.  Even if I *feel* like I'm stopping at P3 and hitting little chip shots, video repeatedly shows that even while my body and shoulders stop turning, my arms keep going back.  When the right shoulder/arm is internally rotated at P3, it's very hard to control the length of the backswing.  However, when the right shoulder/arm is more externally rotated at P3 (right forearm vertical), the backswing seems to stop itself.  Even with an aggressive transition, a properly positioned right elbow shouldn't get trapped behind the body.

So long story short, shortening the backswing length and reducing arm over run is an effect of proper arm mechanics, rather than something I can consciously control.  A good checkpoint is at P3, where my right elbow should be pointing straight down, rather than canted to the outside.
PepsiDuck, a struggling golfer, schooling a decades-long plus handicapper on golf instruction and how to achieve optimum performance. Don't you see the irony here my friend?

I hate to be a jerk, but you, PepsiDuck, are a know-it-all. You are also bull-headed, as defined by Bob Rotella in his many golf-related books. You should know that the way you present yourself in this thread is every golf teacher's nightmare: a guy that doubts everything and only likes to implement stuff he came up with on his own. You are clearly very intelligent. Your intelligence is working against you in golf. I'd challenge you to put 100% trust in Jim, do whatever he says and put full effort into his suggestions and psychological teachings. Go to him for a week, don't let any of your knowledge about the golf swing influence you, and just do whatever he says. There's a 99% chance it will completely change your game. Then you can come back home and see if you can keep the bad thoughts away :)
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#144 oikos1

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:06 PM

" And it's pretty easy right now, because a properly positioned right elbow at P3 is actually quite painful."

Pepsi, read your words and tell us that doesn't sound dumb as f###.

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#145 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:22 PM

View Postoikos1, on 18 April 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

" And it's pretty easy right now, because a properly positioned right elbow at P3 is actually quite painful."

Pepsi, read your words and tell us that doesn't sound dumb as f###.

Dumb, but true.  Feel + video doesn't lie...

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#146 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:29 PM

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 18 April 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

PepsiDuck, a struggling golfer, schooling a decades-long plus handicapper on golf instruction and how to achieve optimum performance. Don't you see the irony here my friend?

I hate to be a jerk, but you, PepsiDuck, are a know-it-all. You are also bull-headed, as defined by Bob Rotella in his many golf-related books. You should know that the way you present yourself in this thread is every golf teacher's nightmare: a guy that doubts everything and only likes to implement stuff he came up with on his own. You are clearly very intelligent. Your intelligence is working against you in golf. I'd challenge you to put 100% trust in Jim, do whatever he says and put full effort into his suggestions and psychological teachings. Go to him for a week, don't let any of your knowledge about the golf swing influence you, and just do whatever he says. There's a 99% chance it will completely change your game. Then you can come back home and see if you can keep the bad thoughts away :)

It was certainly not my intent to "school" Obee on any aspect of the game or the golf swing, and I hope he didn't take my response that way.  We've actually played a round of golf together several years ago and I'm sure he's well aware that I'm a complete head case.  In any case, I was simply describing my observations from experimenting with different feels and the such on the range, without using the words "I think..." or "I feel..." for succinctness.  

And I agree that I'm any instructor's worst nightmare.  It's not that I want to come up with everyone on my own; but rather, I want the whole picture.  Someone accurately pointed out earlier in this thread my obsession with minutia, and he's absolutely correct.  If an instructor doesn't provide the minutia, then my instinct is to fill in the rest of the blanks, for my own satisfaction.  So while it seems like I came up with "everything," it's only from a lack of minutia from the instructor.  I can't confidently assume that I'm doing everything else correctly, so I question everything else.

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#147 oikos1

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:31 PM

View PostPepsiDuck, on 18 April 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 18 April 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

" And it's pretty easy right now, because a properly positioned right elbow at P3 is actually quite painful."

Pepsi, read your words and tell us that doesn't sound dumb as f###.

Dumb, but true.  Feel + video doesn't lie...
Maybe "quite painful" means it's not the correct position for you.  I doubt there is a single instructor around here that would have you continue to do something that is "quite painful".

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#148 PepsiDuck

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:42 PM

View Postoikos1, on 18 April 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

Maybe "quite painful" means it's not the correct position for you.  I doubt there is a single instructor around here that would have you continue to do something that is "quite painful".

Perhaps...but my goal is to condition the body and remap the muscle and fascia...I expect that the more I work on it, the better my range of motion will be...but if it's not improving in a few weeks to a month, then I'll re-access...

The position below is super comfortable, but it's also super wrong and leads to super bad things...

P4.JPG

Based on video feedback, if I don't feel any discomfort at the top of my swing, then that picture is what I see...
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#149 Mike Divot

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:14 PM

What Would YOU Do?

Here's a hypothetical for you all. Based on a completely made up scenario.

You're an athletic guy with obvious golf talent. You've played to low single before but your game's gone south.

You don't like your position at P4.

Your "wrong" position, which seems no worse than that of a great many successful golfers, somehow allows you to stripe it at the range.

Although you stripe it on the range, you can't carry that to the course. It's driving you nuts.

Now rank the following, in order from most sensible to most crazy and outlandish:

o You see a sports shrink to find out why you can't carry your range game to the first tee

o You see a pro to get your P4 in a more pleasing position, for the gals

o You decide on your own to force your elbow into a painful position and promise to work on that for up to month to see if the pain stops

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#150 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 09:25 PM

If it were me and I was out of whack at P4 and I wanted to go it alone ...

I'd probably try and figure out what I was doing wrong @ P2/P3 that was causing the problem @ P4. Even comparing a swing to static DTL pics of pros can help identify the issue.

And once I figured it out, I'd follow the instructions in post #4 and expect the change to take time.

And if I couldn't figure out, I'd find a reputable coach and stick with him/her.

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