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Over the Top vs Coming from the Inside


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#31 Roffe

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 05:15 AM

View PostBottleCap, on 01 April 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

around the 10 minute mark



Exactly my first thought.

Edited by Roffe, 02 April 2018 - 05:16 AM.


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#32 hack2489

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 05:56 AM

View Postjurr80, on 01 April 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:


...

The correct sequence is exactly the opposite of what makes intuitive sense.

Which is?

What is the correct sequence?

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#33 hack2489

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 06:02 AM

View Postrteach1, on 01 April 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:


In my opinion, the main cause of OTT among beginners/hackers lies in the brain, not in biomechanical errors.  From my experience, it simply seemed natural to get the club to the target line first, i.e. OTT  and then to move the club forward. I simply had the wrong conception of the most efficient way to swing.  I believe, from personal experience, that this problem doesn't get fixed until the erroneous picture gets replaced with the correct image in your brain.  The brain will send the proper impulses to your muscles if you re-program your intent.

...


100% agree.

That is EXACTLY what I've found too.

The 'drill" from Dante's 'four magic moves' was the key "ah-ha" moment for me. It was the lightbulb moment that changed the image in my brain of how to get the club head back to the ball.

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#34 naval2006

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 08:44 AM

I think to the OP question there’s a natural body response: sledgehammer body motion like automatic. Golf swing is a very complicated and unnatural sequence of motions that can hardly be grasped for short periods of time by a bunch of golfers, most of them will never get it and a small elite will learn it and repeat it forever.  Bad thing we gotta make do with what we have LOL.

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#35 jut111

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 09:48 AM

View Postjurr80, on 01 April 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Interesting stuff.

From the top, you're looking down at a golf ball, and your arms are over your shoulder. This is a mental "screw job". Your brain wants to get the hammer on the nail. You want to see (control) this process. In reality, getting weight to the front leg is going to start opening up your core to swing through, and your hands (and shaft) are going to naturally trail your opening chest. Eventually, it all catches up, but you can't control that at speed.

Kids typically get this easier because the club weighs so much for them. They just have to move the body to get that heavy object around them.

But, that moment from the top is the problem. You initially don't trust that hands behind you (even if they're in front of your chest) are going to get down to the golf ball without your help and control. That's why someone holding the shaft at the top behind you while you start the downswing can be so helpful. It just helps open the mental image that "those arms don't do anything to start the trip down."

Obviously other concepts play into all of it. Did you make a body turn or did you just start your backswing with flopping your arms behind you? Is your grip a disaster? Is your setup a mess?

But even with good fundamentals, the mental image from the top can still throw the entire thing out of whack. You can't direct that club to the ball and hope to have any true speed or control. You'll always have some degree of pulling down/steepening/OTT.

The correct sequence is exactly the opposite of what makes intuitive sense. Ben Hogan was right on with that statement in Five Lessons.

This is a really good point IMO.  To add on a bit, the golf swing is like a 3D puzzle.  And it just so happens that the players POV is about the hardest spot to be to solve it from.  It's very natural to be at the top of your swing and feel like, crap, I need to get my arms all the way to the ball and then to finish, over the top is the most direct route to get there.  It also feels powerful to rotate the shoulders as fast as you can.  Why not do it right away...  

I'd say to truly solve it, you need to either inherently understand or change your perception of what the swing is, and how the club gets from point A to point B.  Arm swing illusion is a huge part of it - i.e. what the arms are really doing independently vs. being transported by the pivot.

One thing that helped me a great deal is watching pro's swing from an overhead angle.


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#36 martin9073

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 10:26 AM

Great thread with lots of interesting insights.

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#37 Jim Waldron

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:15 AM

Many causes of OTT. But primary one is what Rteach said. It is only natural to want to move the clubhead toward the target line as fast as possible. If the target line is "north" and the target itself is "west", then the direction the c head, hands and arms want to travel is "northwest". It's the most direct route back to the ball.

Also the WRONG route back!

Hands and arms and clubhead all have to move "East" during Transition and do not start moving toward the "northwest" until around P6 or a little earlier, ie halfway down.

Another primary cause of OTT is that 2D thinking in general (including the Arm Swing Illusion and the Lever Illusion) create a mental understanding in the golfer's subconscious mind Swing Map that gets the Pivot all wrong. And specifically that the Pivot is solely rotation. It is also side bend or tilts - left on backswing and right on f swing. OTT folks almost always lack a fast enough, early enough and range of motion "enough" Tilt Switch. If you do not switch from left tilt to right tilt in Transition - you will be way OTT.

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#38 Teekman

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:29 AM

Wow this is getting more attention than I thought. I like all the points but my main takeaway is definitely the fact that Amateurs can't line up properly with a majority aiming way right. Never really though about how that can promote a poor swing by itself.
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#39 jut111

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 12:19 PM

Or do they line up right subconciously so there over the top pulls are functional?  Chicken or the egg.

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#40 SPARKP

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 12:39 PM

View PostRoffe, on 02 April 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostBottleCap, on 01 April 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

around the 10 minute mark



Exactly my first thought.


Stumbled across this video ( here on WRX ) about 6 months ago and started doing the drill. I now do a shorter version of it before every swing. I have been more consistent than ever since starting this. My HCP fluxuates between 8-10 but that's it. Before this video I could shoot a 78 in the morning and an 90 in the afternoon. Now my bad days are 85.

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#41 Teekman

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 04:44 PM

View Postjut111, on 02 April 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Or do they line up right subconciously so there over the top pulls are functional?  Chicken or the egg.

Lol the 4D Chess theory.
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#42 ParParAgain

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 07:19 PM

View PostRoffe, on 02 April 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

View PostBottleCap, on 01 April 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

around the 10 minute mark
Exactly my first thought.

Malaska: "over the top, but from the inside".

I agree with this.  It works.

Notice how it keeps the lead arm attached to the body; the lead elbow pointing to the hip, causing the lead arm to rotate.

IMHO, rotating the lead arm, therefore squaring the club face, is hugely important.

I have tried it and, for me, it helped a lot, especially the driver.

Martin Hall has a somewhat similar video:  "left elbow down, palm up".

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#43 dap

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:20 AM

You only want to come "OTT" late in the downswing. You want to be shallowing and lowering the lead arm plane during the transition. The one thing in common with all over the toppers is failure to shallow and lower the lead arm early in the downswing.

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#44 WILDTHING

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:10 AM

Quote


Great. Thanks.

But, I'm still lost as to what causes the OTT.

Your explanation tells me what is happening, not what the bio mechanical cause is.

From what I've read there are lots of causes for OTT . But generally speaking whatever move you make that causes the COG of the club to move on a plane steeper than your hand plane (during transition or early downswing) will probably mean a point of no-return, unless you can somehow correct it in virtually a 'blink of an eye' .  If you start with an OTT, you will probably try to change your hand path to correct the 'fault'  (ie.  try and get the COG moving in a shallower plane below your hand plane ) but end up with a functional pull left  (or snap hook) or a big slice if you still can't square the club (the ball could go anywhere).

I've posted this video in another thread but Sasho explains what could happen if you get the COG of the club moving in a plane steeper than your hands (see 09:50 - 10:50). So maybe its okay to swing down on a steeper plane as long as the COG of the club is on a plane slightly shallower than your hand plane (or on the same plane, but never above the hand plane).



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#45 dap

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 08:22 AM

I think some players play better with an OTT action as long as it's not too extreme. It's important to find a plane where you can control the clubface. This guy won a Masters.




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#46 hack2489

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.

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#47 yellowballs

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 02:41 PM

View Posthack2489, on 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.
Interesting.  So the feeling is what would normally be considered spinning out with your hips?

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#48 hack2489

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:26 PM

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.
Interesting.  So the feeling is what would normally be considered spinning out with your hips?

TBH, I'm not sure what the "spinning out with your hips" feels like.

To me, the whole sequence is more about keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and still getting the club back to the ball. To do that, you have to use your hips, by, what I call, "clearing the left hip". It's a totally different mental approach to "hitting the ball" with hands and arms which is where I believe the whole OTT stems from... I can see in video of myself how I would roll my shoulders over instead of under and through. This new sequence forces the shoulders under and through because it is being pulled by the lower body as the left hip goes back in a rotational movement.

Hope that makes sense.

Hopefully it helps others.

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#49 yellowballs

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:47 PM

View Posthack2489, on 16 April 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.
Interesting.  So the feeling is what would normally be considered spinning out with your hips?

TBH, I'm not sure what the "spinning out with your hips" feels like.

To me, the whole sequence is more about keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and still getting the club back to the ball. To do that, you have to use your hips, by, what I call, "clearing the left hip". It's a totally different mental approach to "hitting the ball" with hands and arms which is where I believe the whole OTT stems from... I can see in video of myself how I would roll my shoulders over instead of under and through. This new sequence forces the shoulders under and through because it is being pulled by the lower body as the left hip goes back in a rotational movement.

Hope that makes sense.

Hopefully it helps others.
Thanks.  To my understanding, spinning out with the hips is what causes OTT for a lot of people b/c they spin/rotate their hips from the top WITHOUT a lateral bump towards the target.  It sounds like you're saying you were trying to rotate immediately from the top without a lateral shift and that feeling was actually decreasing your OTT move and helping you hit in to out.

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#50 Grayback1973

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 07:07 PM

View PostSean2, on 01 April 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

Another reason I think it is because many folks have a hit impulse, so they swing with their shoulders, arms, hands, which keeps the club from dropping into the slot.

I see the golf swing as more rotational than an actual "swing". When I hear the word swing I think of engaging my arms and hands, like with a baseball bat, or an ax. I would say the golf swing is actually a rotational force that our arms and hands respond to. You rotate back in the takeaway, and rotate through in the forward motion, keeping the arms and hands passive, letting them go along for the ride.

If you look at the finish of the golf professional, he is facing the target. He has fully rotated through the shot. Many amateurs hit at the ball and never come to a complete finish. I would hazard a guess that the only way one can come to a full finish is by rotating completely through the shot. Even short pitch shots.

Just my opinion though.
The illusion that happens in a lot of amateur swings is the false rotation and it's only exposed in slow motion video.In normal speed lots of people will be facing the target for the most part but what actually gets them there is the momentum of their arms and club.They weren't really rotating through the shot like very good players actually do.

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#51 hack2489

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:55 PM

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 16 April 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.
Interesting.  So the feeling is what would normally be considered spinning out with your hips?

TBH, I'm not sure what the "spinning out with your hips" feels like.

To me, the whole sequence is more about keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and still getting the club back to the ball. To do that, you have to use your hips, by, what I call, "clearing the left hip". It's a totally different mental approach to "hitting the ball" with hands and arms which is where I believe the whole OTT stems from... I can see in video of myself how I would roll my shoulders over instead of under and through. This new sequence forces the shoulders under and through because it is being pulled by the lower body as the left hip goes back in a rotational movement.

Hope that makes sense.

Hopefully it helps others.
Thanks.  To my understanding, spinning out with the hips is what causes OTT for a lot of people b/c they spin/rotate their hips from the top WITHOUT a lateral bump towards the target.  It sounds like you're saying you were trying to rotate immediately from the top without a lateral shift and that feeling was actually decreasing your OTT move and helping you hit in to out.

I'll try to explain.

My OTT is, as per video, from my shoulders, upper torso turning before my hips. I would start the downswing with the shoulders...

I've tried the hip bump left to start the downswing (it's one of the four magic moves) but it didn't really help. I'm certain I was not turning my hips.

But.

I got a LOT from the concept from four magic moves of keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and getting the club back to the ball by ONLY using the hips to turn through.

So.

When my coach recommended the sequence change to start the downswing with my left hip going back (i.e not a bump toward target, but actually turning rotating) it all made sense and club instantly become in to out.

Hopefully that makes sense.



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#52 yellowballs

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:19 AM

View Posthack2489, on 16 April 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 16 April 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

View Postyellowballs, on 16 April 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 15 April 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

For those struggling with an OTT, I mentioned earlier the drill in "four magic moves", well... At my golf lesson last week, my coach recommended we try a new "move" to tweak my technique. In short, it's the drill from four magic moves.

Big difference though, no lateral hip slide left (I'm a right handed golfer).

The swing sequence we worked on and I am now trying to groove is:

1. Left shoulder turn to start back swing.
2. Finish backswing with hands in "L"
3. Start downswing with left hip going back, as in straight back, turning back (and therefore pulls upper body / torso)
4. Keep the "L" in hands, wrists by not deliberately releasing...
5. Just swing through and down the target line and let hands release naturally.

At the lesson, we have open range plus trackman. So both actual ball flight and data. I'm always out to in. Always. From as much as 5deg and at best 1*...

But.

That new sequence, moving downswing to start with left hip going back... 100% change to an in to out swing path. From .5 to 1 deg in to out.

Ball flight totally different too.

I'm really excited to see where these change takes me.

Hopefully it works for some of you too.
Interesting.  So the feeling is what would normally be considered spinning out with your hips?

TBH, I'm not sure what the "spinning out with your hips" feels like.

To me, the whole sequence is more about keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and still getting the club back to the ball. To do that, you have to use your hips, by, what I call, "clearing the left hip". It's a totally different mental approach to "hitting the ball" with hands and arms which is where I believe the whole OTT stems from... I can see in video of myself how I would roll my shoulders over instead of under and through. This new sequence forces the shoulders under and through because it is being pulled by the lower body as the left hip goes back in a rotational movement.

Hope that makes sense.

Hopefully it helps others.
Thanks.  To my understanding, spinning out with the hips is what causes OTT for a lot of people b/c they spin/rotate their hips from the top WITHOUT a lateral bump towards the target.  It sounds like you're saying you were trying to rotate immediately from the top without a lateral shift and that feeling was actually decreasing your OTT move and helping you hit in to out.

I'll try to explain.

My OTT is, as per video, from my shoulders, upper torso turning before my hips. I would start the downswing with the shoulders...

I've tried the hip bump left to start the downswing (it's one of the four magic moves) but it didn't really help. I'm certain I was not turning my hips.

But.

I got a LOT from the concept from four magic moves of keeping the "L" in the wrists / hands and getting the club back to the ball by ONLY using the hips to turn through.

So.

When my coach recommended the sequence change to start the downswing with my left hip going back (i.e not a bump toward target, but actually turning rotating) it all made sense and club instantly become in to out.

Hopefully that makes sense.
Ah yes.  I understand now.  Thanks for clarifying.

22

#53 uitar9

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:49 AM

After reading mr. Hogans book spent the winter practice consciously starting my downswing with my hips. Changed nothing else.

Appears to be adding a little power and fewer mishits.

I can feel the hands dropping without trying.
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#54 stevopagolf

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:14 AM

View PostMPStrat, on 01 April 2018 - 12:50 AM, said:

Inside takeaway doesn't guarantee OTT, but it usuallly does if the inside takeaway includes rolling the face open. Beginners tend to roll the face open and then use the path to get the face pointed somewhere functional. They tip the club OTT to get the face square.

Yep--The rolling of the face is the fault that sneaks into my swing on occasion and then you try to recover and it starts left and goes left....

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