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Over the Top vs Coming from the Inside


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#1 Teekman

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM

Is there any statistics on this for the average golfer? Was watching this guy give his friend tips on his swing mainly focusing on his finish ... When the main reason for his distance loss was his major over the top move ... Didn't want to say anything cause the dudes were way older but honestly why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?

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#2 Justsomeguy

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:39 PM

Bad takeaway, bc of the illusion that you need an upright pendulum, which finishes over the lead shoulder. I recall the same flawed assumption from the beginning.
In other words, no sense of d-plane.
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#3 QEight

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:12 PM

From watching too much DJ?
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#4 MPStrat

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 12:50 AM

Inside takeaway doesn’t guarantee OTT, but it usuallly does if the inside takeaway includes rolling the face open. Beginners tend to roll the face open and then use the path to get the face pointed somewhere functional. They tip the club OTT to get the face square.

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#5 argee1977

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 01:56 AM

From what i've seen the takeaway or backswing doesn't really matter, it's the first move on the downswing, i say that instead of transition because that is what is missing most of the time, they get to the top, stop, then start down with the shoulders.

I play with a lot of guys like this, and to be fair, for a fair few of them they get round the course no problem, but they do suffer when chipping, not sure why this is though, always puzzled me as they've compensated for every other type of shot?


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#6 Kenny Lee Puckett

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 03:38 AM

View PostTeekman, on 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?
two planes in a two plane swing, original shaft plane and secondary shoulder plane (position at the top). weekend duffers can swing whatever way to the top they want, but once they've moved the club up on their secondary shoulder plane they deliver it (start the downswing) from there up and over their original shaft plane. they never move the club back down towards the original shaft plane. I mean honest to god it's somewhat of a miracle they ever hit anything ever when they're swinging the club back on a plane so incredibly high above where the ball is sitting on the ground.
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#7 OakLawnGolfPro

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 04:19 AM

Bad concepts of how it really works to hit the ball.  Bad/misunderstood concepts of motion and how to direct energy into an object that is several feet away from the center of our bodies mass.

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#8 Sean2

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 05:40 AM

Another reason I think it is because many folks have a hit impulse, so they swing with their shoulders, arms, hands, which keeps the club from dropping into the slot.

I see the golf swing as more rotational than an actual "swing". When I hear the word swing I think of engaging my arms and hands, like with a baseball bat, or an ax. I would say the golf swing is actually a rotational force that our arms and hands respond to. You rotate back in the takeaway, and rotate through in the forward motion, keeping the arms and hands passive, letting them go along for the ride.

If you look at the finish of the golf professional, he is facing the target. He has fully rotated through the shot. Many amateurs hit at the ball and never come to a complete finish. I would hazard a guess that the only way one can come to a full finish is by rotating completely through the shot. Even short pitch shots.

Just my opinion though.
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#9 hack2489

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:00 AM

As one inflicted with a natural tendency to come OTT, I believe the causes are as outlined by a couple of responses above:

- trying to 'hit' the ball
- not knowing the swing dynamic
- using the shoulders to start downswing

A huge "ah ha" moment for me was reading Dante's 'four magic moves' and trying the movement drill to get the club back to the ball by ONLY rotating the hips.

Personally I think every beginner should be shown, taught, explained that one drill, motion, move.

Also, reading and understanding the link with the error of trying to "hit" from the top, and how that engages the shoulders too early.

I've suggested to a several people I've seen at the range, people who are obviously new and learning, that they should have a read of four magic moves. I've seen a few of them weeks, months later and have received feedback that they got a lot from it including the "hit' action issues.

Edited by hack2489, 01 April 2018 - 06:01 AM.


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#10 hack2489

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:04 AM

View PostOakLawnGolfPro, on 01 April 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

Bad concepts of how it really works to hit the ball.  Bad/misunderstood concepts of motion and how to direct energy into an object that is several feet away from the center of our bodies mass.

What are the correct concept(s)?

This is a serious and genuine question from someone wanting learn and understand.


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#11 hack2489

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:06 AM

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 03:38 AM, said:

View PostTeekman, on 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?
two planes in a two plane swing, original shaft plane and secondary shoulder plane (position at the top). weekend duffers can swing whatever way to the top they want, but once they've moved the club up on their secondary shoulder plane they deliver it (start the downswing) from there up and over their original shaft plane. they never move the club back down towards the original shaft plane. I mean honest to god it's somewhat of a miracle they ever hit anything ever when they're swinging the club back on a plane so incredibly high above where the ball is sitting on the ground.

So, what causes these 'plane' errors?

Serious, genuine question. I'm trying to learn and understand the dynamics of the golf swing.

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#12 crazygolfnut

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:20 AM

I am watching this topic and I want to know. Always looking for good information.

Edited by crazygolfnut, 01 April 2018 - 02:00 PM.

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#13 DonMega884

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:38 AM

Your body’s instinct is to go right after the ball once your loaded up in the back swing. You have to fight the urge to fire too early. Bump, dump, and turn and burn. Once you can control your natural reaction you’ll hit the ball a lot better. Keeping perfect balance is probably the most important thing I work on. It all starts with a solid base. Fred Couples said once his arms get into the “slot” he goes at it with everything he has. With his good balance, and correct body sequence it just looks so effortless.

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#14 games

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 08:15 AM

I think OTT is prevalent among weekend golfers for two reasons:

1. Golfers who don't take lessons and are out of shape use their natural swing.  Their bodies don't leave room to swing naturally inside-out.

2. Many don't know the correct sequence.  Someone alluded to Monte's "Bump, Dump, and Turn" (and added "Burn" which I liked).  Just a simple phrase to properly order the sequence can help.  For those who need physical queues, the notion of keeping your back to the target until after starting the downswing can help.
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#15 Billy Baroo

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 01:45 PM

What about Parallax error?

When a right handed golfer addresses the ball, the target will look left of where it really is. So if instructed to swing at the target, the golfer will inadvertently swing over the top.

Maybe.....Yessir!

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#16 Kenny Lee Puckett

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 02:30 PM

View Posthack2489, on 01 April 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 03:38 AM, said:

View PostTeekman, on 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?
two planes in a two plane swing, original shaft plane and secondary shoulder plane (position at the top). weekend duffers can swing whatever way to the top they want, but once they've moved the club up on their secondary shoulder plane they deliver it (start the downswing) from there up and over their original shaft plane. they never move the club back down towards the original shaft plane. I mean honest to god it's somewhat of a miracle they ever hit anything ever when they're swinging the club back on a plane so incredibly high above where the ball is sitting on the ground.

So, what causes these 'plane' errors?

Serious, genuine question. I'm trying to learn and understand the dynamics of the golf swing.
Posted Image

i always have believed it is a bit of anatomical confusion (unwittingly causing poor motion) by most players. in a two plane swing you put the club in two varying positions between the start and top of the back swing. bottom blue line = shaft plane (where the club starts at address). top blue line = shoulder plane (or basically where the club will end up in one form or another at the top of the back swing).... now, once you complete the back swing imagine if you start by throwing/swinging of that left arm and club back down the top blue line (you are over the top, heck look at it, you are actually swinging the club at an aiming point completely above the ground). this is what majority of amateurs do. they do not move/drop the left arm and therefore the golf club back down towards the bottom blue line (the original shaft plane established at address). and I believe this is completely understandable because if you have the club up on that higher plane, it is 100% natural to now swing from there out towards the ball. nothing feels easy or natural about dropping the left arm and the club all the way back down towards the shaft plane. it's an oversight and miscalculation in most players golf swings.
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#17 Kenny Lee Puckett

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 02:36 PM

now, from the top of the back swing visualize how the Mc's left arm/club drops/is dropping back down towards his shaft plane. he is trying to get back down to where the club started at address...Posted Image

Edited by Kenny Lee Puckett, 01 April 2018 - 02:39 PM.

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be  video on course practice 5/2016

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#18 Whiskey_fire

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 02:46 PM

I had to really FEEL like I was dropping the club/ pulling the handle in the downswing when I was curing the ott.  Just be careful because now my miss is coming too much from the inside and having a closed face.
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#19 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 04:25 PM

When they’re first starting up, beginners probably make the mistake of watching too many videos of Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Julius Boros, George Knudson, Roberto Divincenzo, Arnold Palmer, Ray Floyd, Craig Stadler and Bruce Lietzsche swings.

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#20 hack2489

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 04:32 PM

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

View Posthack2489, on 01 April 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 03:38 AM, said:

View PostTeekman, on 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?
two planes in a two plane swing, original shaft plane and secondary shoulder plane (position at the top). weekend duffers can swing whatever way to the top they want, but once they've moved the club up on their secondary shoulder plane they deliver it (start the downswing) from there up and over their original shaft plane. they never move the club back down towards the original shaft plane. I mean honest to god it's somewhat of a miracle they ever hit anything ever when they're swinging the club back on a plane so incredibly high above where the ball is sitting on the ground.

So, what causes these 'plane' errors?

Serious, genuine question. I'm trying to learn and understand the dynamics of the golf swing.
Posted Image

i always have believed it is a bit of anatomical confusion (unwittingly causing poor motion) by most players. in a two plane swing you put the club in two varying positions between the start and top of the back swing. bottom blue line = shaft plane (where the club starts at address). top blue line = shoulder plane (or basically where the club will end up in one form or another at the top of the back swing).... now, once you complete the back swing imagine if you start by throwing/swinging of that left arm and club back down the top blue line (you are over the top, heck look at it, you are actually swinging the club at an aiming point completely above the ground). this is what majority of amateurs do. they do not move/drop the left arm and therefore the golf club back down towards the bottom blue line (the original shaft plane established at address). and I believe this is completely understandable because if you have the club up on that higher plane, it is 100% natural to now swing from there out towards the ball. nothing feels easy or natural about dropping the left arm and the club all the way back down towards the shaft plane. it's an oversight and miscalculation in most players golf swings.

Great. Thanks.

But, I'm still lost as to what causes the OTT.

Your explanation tells me what is happening, not what the bio mechanical cause is.


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#21 hack2489

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 04:34 PM

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

now, from the top of the back swing visualize how the Mc's left arm/club drops/is dropping back down towards his shaft plane. he is trying to get back down to where the club started at address...Posted Image

Thanks.

How do you make this move? What's the bio mechanical move, feel, technique?

I can see it, and understand what you've explained, but, don't know what the actual swing move, transition move, technique, is that makes it happen.

Can you explain that?

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#22 rteach1

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 05:15 PM

In my opinion, the main cause of OTT among beginners/hackers lies in the brain, not in biomechanical errors.  From my experience, it simply seemed natural to get the club to the target line first, i.e. OTT  and then to move the club forward. I simply had the wrong conception of the most efficient way to swing.  I believe, from personal experience, that this problem doesn't get fixed until the erroneous picture gets replaced with the correct image in your brain.  The brain will send the proper impulses to your muscles if you re-program your intent.

Having said the above, I do agree with the posters who stated that you are much more likely to be OTT if you
1. have an open face at the top, often caused by sucking the clubhead inside too much and/or
2. snatch the club from the top (hit Impulse).

I have slowly gotten better by working on being much more aware of whether or not I am snatching the club from the top during practice sessions as well as becoming more aware of my intent when I swing (aiming to the right of a stick that I place in the ground when practicing).  My previous intent was always to swing out of my shoes, period.

Finally, I have found that it helps to ask myself, "did I have the "good loop?" with the downswing below the backswing, or the "bad loop" aka the OTT chop. I'm not "cured," but I think that things are better.

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#23 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 05:56 PM

Most people I’ve seen starting out hit a straight push (they start with the face pointing at the target, take it back, and because most of them instinctively shift their weight like in any other sport they’ve ever played, the club stays open when they hit the ball), so they try to solve it by trying to hit it lefter.

Edited by Petunia Sprinkle, 02 April 2018 - 07:18 AM.


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#24 jurr80

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 06:49 PM

Interesting stuff.

From the top, you’re looking down at a golf ball, and your arms are over your shoulder. This is a mental “screw job”. Your brain wants to get the hammer on the nail. You want to see (control) this process. In reality, getting weight to the front leg is going to start opening up your core to swing through, and your hands (and shaft) are going to naturally trail your opening chest. Eventually, it all catches up, but you can’t control that at speed.

Kids typically get this easier because the club weighs so much for them. They just have to move the body to get that heavy object around them.

But, that moment from the top is the problem. You initially don’t trust that hands behind you (even if they’re in front of your chest) are going to get down to the golf ball without your help and control. That’s why someone holding the shaft at the top behind you while you start the downswing can be so helpful. It just helps open the mental image that “those arms don’t do anything to start the trip down.”

Obviously other concepts play into all of it. Did you make a body turn or did you just start your backswing with flopping your arms behind you? Is your grip a disaster? Is your setup a mess?

But even with good fundamentals, the mental image from the top can still throw the entire thing out of whack. You can’t direct that club to the ball and hope to have any true speed or control. You’ll always have some degree of pulling down/steepening/OTT.

The correct sequence is exactly the opposite of what makes intuitive sense. Ben Hogan was right on with that statement in Five Lessons.


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#25 DonMega884

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:16 PM

View PostKenny Lee Puckett, on 01 April 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

now, from the top of the back swing visualize how the Mc's left arm/club drops/is dropping back down towards his shaft plane. he is trying to get back down to where the club started at address...Posted Image

Why can’t I put Gifs on here? Always says files too big! Yours is huge!!!!


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#26 Guia

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:28 PM

Where has Monty been?  He will have the answer.

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#27 BottleCap

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 10:56 PM

around the 10 minute mark


Edited by BottleCap, 01 April 2018 - 10:58 PM.

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#28 RBImGuy

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 03:53 AM

View PostTeekman, on 31 March 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

Is there any statistics on this for the average golfer? Was watching this guy give his friend tips on his swing mainly focusing on his finish ... When the main reason for his distance loss was his major over the top move ... Didn't want to say anything cause the dudes were way older but honestly why is the over the top move so prevalent in amateurs?

Due to modern theory teaching.

View PostSean2, on 01 April 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

Another reason I think it is because many folks have a hit impulse, so they swing with their shoulders, arms, hands, which keeps the club from dropping into the slot.

I see the golf swing as more rotational than an actual "swing". When I hear the word swing I think of engaging my arms and hands, like with a baseball bat, or an ax. I would say the golf swing is actually a rotational force that our arms and hands respond to. You rotate back in the takeaway, and rotate through in the forward motion, keeping the arms and hands passive, letting them go along for the ride.



Hum no.

View Posthack2489, on 01 April 2018 - 06:00 AM, said:

As one inflicted with a natural tendency to come OTT, I believe the causes are as outlined by a couple of responses above:


- not knowing the swing dynamic


None here knows those.
If they did I would know

View Posthack2489, on 01 April 2018 - 06:04 AM, said:



What are the correct concept(s)?

This is a serious and genuine question from someone wanting learn and understand.

None here knows.
You will struggle with what they teach you here.
They all think thats normal.

No one here can offer you a definition of a golf swing, I can.
But I wont tell due to the experts here say they know better.
They dont and keep on living in the illusion of knowing.

Anyhow, Have a great day
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#29 hack2489

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 04:57 AM

View PostBottleCap, on 01 April 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

around the 10 minute mark



Thank You. Thank You. Thank You.

Bottle Cap .. I just took a few of those off while watching that video, and this one:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2V6-n-bRPn8

I really like the drill and mental aspects they discuss in that video.

EDIT: I just looked at this one too.... watch at about the 2.40 mark:

https://www.youtube....h?v=KceztwOBV8I

And ...

Have a look at this one from the 15.10 mark:

https://www.youtube....h?v=t7RrP1DtM3o

Note: the rest of that one ^^^^ (yes the putting one) is really good too .. but that's a bit off track for this thread.

Edited by hack2489, 02 April 2018 - 05:51 AM.


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#30 OrangeGravy

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 05:00 AM

View Postjurr80, on 01 April 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Interesting stuff.

From the top, you're looking down at a golf ball, and your arms are over your shoulder. This is a mental "screw job". Your brain wants to get the hammer on the nail. You want to see (control) this process. In reality, getting weight to the front leg is going to start opening up your core to swing through, and your hands (and shaft) are going to naturally trail your opening chest. Eventually, it all catches up, but you can't control that at speed.

Kids typically get this easier because the club weighs so much for them. They just have to move the body to get that heavy object around them.

But, that moment from the top is the problem. You initially don't trust that hands behind you (even if they're in front of your chest) are going to get down to the golf ball without your help and control. That's why someone holding the shaft at the top behind you while you start the downswing can be so helpful. It just helps open the mental image that "those arms don't do anything to start the trip down."

Obviously other concepts play into all of it. Did you make a body turn or did you just start your backswing with flopping your arms behind you? Is your grip a disaster? Is your setup a mess?

But even with good fundamentals, the mental image from the top can still throw the entire thing out of whack. You can't direct that club to the ball and hope to have any true speed or control. You'll always have some degree of pulling down/steepening/OTT.

The correct sequence is exactly the opposite of what makes intuitive sense. Ben Hogan was right on with that statement in Five Lessons.

I think the shape of a golf club plays a part in the "metal screwjob". If you were swinging something like a sledge hammer, your brain wouldn't let you come OTT due to the shape of the head. You would instinctively shallow because your brain would know that it was necessary to get the strike surface of the hammer to the back of the ball

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