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ANGC Course Changes

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#61 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 06:09 PM

I do agree if they lengthen 13 the narrow front left section needs to go back in .. would tempt more guys to go from 225-245 (from a new tee) if that's there

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#62 ChillyDipper

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 07:19 PM

Add a bunker short of #9 green. The slope there is a little comical.  Lengthen #15 a bit so that it requires more than a 5 or 6 iron in for the big boys.
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#63 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:25 PM

There used to be an extra bunker short left
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#64 knock it close

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:51 PM

Oh get rid of the bunker on the outside of the dogleg on number 2.
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#65 Ajit

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:53 PM

View PostChillyDipper, on 31 March 2018 - 07:19 PM, said:

Add a bunker short of #9 green. The slope there is a little comical.  Lengthen #15 a bit so that it requires more than a 5 or 6 iron in for the big boys.

I think the committee decided a few years ago that too many players were laying up on 15 so they decided to soften the green complex. I know souped up Sergio hit 8 iron for his approach last year but Rose hit 4 iron which is probably more typical.


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#66 OrangeGravy

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:32 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 31 March 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

View PostAjit, on 31 March 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Nice thread.

4 is too long
7 is probably too long
11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.
13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.

I like 13 as it is.  In my opinion, tough holes are not needed to be good holes.  The excitement is driven by the scoring spread. It's exciting when scores from eagle to double bogey are in play.   A tough hole where almost everybody makes par is boring.

That's why #13 is a great hole.  Last year there were six eagles, 128 birdies, 131 pars, 22 bogeys and five double bogeys.  Almost the same number of double bogeys as eagles.   That's exciting golf!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it's the easiest hole on the course but it's probably one of the top three in excitement.

I like holes where birdie/bogey are pretty equal and it takes a great effort to save par if you get out of position. If you execute you should birdie. I hate pars. I'd rather see the winning score -50 than a bunch of pars. Birdies, eagles, bogeys and doubles please.

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#67 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image

Edited by Ashley Schaeffer, 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM.

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#68 knock it close

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:01 PM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image
Haha good one. I can't believe they let Clifford do anything to the course.
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#69 stu_man

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 08:31 AM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image

I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.  

I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster

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#70 Darth Putter

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 12:10 PM

Some reading on the course design

https://www.golfdige...s-famous-greens

swing is irrelevant, score is everything

just say NO.... to practice swings

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#71 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 07:23 PM

View Poststu_man, on 01 April 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image

I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.  

I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster

I can't recall which pro did this, while also removing the mounds

MacKenzie would be rolling over in his grave over that nonsense
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#72 knock it close

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 08:04 PM

View Postcardoustie, on 01 April 2018 - 07:23 PM, said:

View Poststu_man, on 01 April 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image

I believe Alister MacKenzie said his inspiration for this was the dining room table in the R&A clubhouse.  

I can't imagine what Bob Jones thought when he saw this.. what a disaster

I can't recall which pro did this, while also removing the mounds

MacKenzie would be rolling over in his grave over that nonsense
It was Clifford Roberts. He thought the mounds obstructed the view of the Patrons, think it lasted one year
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#73 QMany

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 07:33 AM

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#74 15th Club

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:03 AM

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

View Postcardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

The thing is that was a green side trap in design ... so move it up to left and front of green.

With today's tech and their billions they can recreate it exactly and have it be beside the green as AM intended.  It's pretty but it's not in play at all

Fazio does good stuff but he's not a restoration guy and maybe now with Ridley at the helm it could shift that way !

I think their changes to date are overall focused on adding yardage ... which is ok .. but not while also pinching everything in

This is all true.  All of the above posts have merit.  #10 green was just over the Mackenzie Bunker, until (with pretty much everyone's approval) Perry Maxwell relocated it up into the hillside.  It is one of the most beautiful and classic cape-and-bay bunkers in the world.  But it is sadly not in play.  Personally, I think it has been left where it is, for ANGC member play.

Edited by 15th Club, 03 April 2018 - 11:04 AM.


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#75 cardoustie

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:23 AM

View Post15th Club, on 03 April 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

View Postcardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

They'll never touch the MacKenzie on #10.  That's a pipe dream sir.. it's the only original bunker left on the course.

The thing is that was a green side trap in design ... so move it up to left and front of green.

With today's tech and their billions they can recreate it exactly and have it be beside the green as AM intended.  It's pretty but it's not in play at all

Fazio does good stuff but he's not a restoration guy and maybe now with Ridley at the helm it could shift that way !

I think their changes to date are overall focused on adding yardage ... which is ok .. but not while also pinching everything in

This is all true.  All of the above posts have merit.  #10 green was just over the Mackenzie Bunker, until (with pretty much everyone's approval) Perry Maxwell relocated it up into the hillside.  It is one of the most beautiful and classic cape-and-bay bunkers in the world.  But it is sadly not in play.  Personally, I think it has been left where it is, for ANGC member play.

Imagine if all the traps had the original MacKenzie shaping ?  For me anyways, that would be incredible

If you google the old layouts and MacKenzie's original routing, there are lots of very cool traps that look just like the trap left behind on 10.  (And I understand some of them were visuals only)

Good lord, arguably the most beautiful inland course on the planet would get even better

I love the old bunker 100 yards short of 18 green in the middle of the fairway with a sod circle in the center of it

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#76 15th Club

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:26 AM

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image


I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture.  The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect.  (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.)  And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.

As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:

http://www.myusualga...m/tag/jamboree/

As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history.  The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains.  Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences.  It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives.  Instead, leave it to architects.

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#77 15th Club

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:30 AM

More from David Owen, on the earliest history of the Tenth Hole:

http://www.myusualga...own-tenth-hole/

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#78 Ajit

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:37 AM

https://nolayingup.c...gusta-national/

Good chat about the course changes with Soly from No Laying Up and Andy from the Fried Egg.

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#79 hollabachgt

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 11:58 AM

View Post15th Club, on 03 April 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image


I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture.  The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect.  (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.)  And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.

As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:

http://www.myusualga...m/tag/jamboree/

As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history.  The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains.  Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences.  It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives.  Instead, leave it to architects.

...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek

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#80 15th Club

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 12:44 PM

View Posthollabachgt, on 03 April 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

...
...
...
...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek

I think the commenter was trying to be sarcastic, but doing a terrible job of it since it proved the opposite point.  (If there ever was a point.)


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#81 johnnypro

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:07 PM

First order of business is to lengthen 13.
Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.

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#82 15th Club

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:23 PM

View Postjohnnypro, on 03 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

First order of business is to lengthen 13.
Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.

It's so convenient, that ANGC has a spare $25 or $30 mil, to buy a chunk of ACC, move their Ninth hole, and build a new tee that lengthens the hole by 30, 40, 50, 60 or more yards.  Easy; no problem.

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#83 stu_man

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 01:58 PM

View Postjohnnypro, on 03 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

First order of business is to lengthen 13.
Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.

The only ridiculous drive on that hole was Bubba in 2014.. The hole is perfect now.  It will not be near as good if they change it.

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#84 hollabachgt

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:16 PM

View Post15th Club, on 03 April 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

View Posthollabachgt, on 03 April 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

...
...
...
...Or the previous poster was simply speaking tongue in cheek

I think the commenter was trying to be sarcastic, but doing a terrible job of it since it proved the opposite point.  (If there ever was a point.)

I simply saw it that the were advising against change for change sake, and the danger that can come from ill informed changes.

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#85 Roadking2003

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:30 PM

View Postjohnnypro, on 03 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

First order of business is to lengthen 13.
Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.

Why do you care about the number on the bottom of the club?


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#86 cardoustie

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:33 PM

i think a book about all the changes hole by hole at Augusta (with lots of pics) would be a great coffee table book (props to Cosmo Kramer)
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#87 Rangeballz

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:34 PM

Restore #7 to the short par 4 that it was originally.

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#88 Roadking2003

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 02:40 PM

View Poststu_man, on 03 April 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

View Postjohnnypro, on 03 April 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

First order of business is to lengthen 13.
Nobody should be hitting wedge or 9 iron second shots. Nobody.

The only ridiculous drive on that hole was Bubba in 2014.. The hole is perfect now.  It will not be near as good if they change it.

I agree.  It might be the most entertaining hole on the course.  Last year the eagles and double bogeys were about equal. On Sunday there were three eagles and three double bogeys.  I hope they don't change it at all.

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#89 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 12:05 AM

View Post15th Club, on 03 April 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

View PostAshley Schaeffer, on 31 March 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

They need to restore #8 to reflect the designer's original intent.  Other than that, I think it's great.

Posted Image


I don't understand the comment that accompanies this picture.  The picture, from about 1956 or so, is of the Eighth green after one of the few changes to the golf course that was personally and privately initiated by Clifford Roberts, who was not an architect.  (Roberts approved and denied a great many suggested changes that were proposed by a great many architects and players; this one was on him alone.)  And Roberts' reason for this horrible design aberration had nothing to do with the quality of play; rather, it was to provide spectators with better sightlines from the area around the green.

As this David Owen blog-post makes clear, Jones and others were furious over the Roberts change that really did go against the intent of the course's original design:

http://www.myusualga...m/tag/jamboree/

As far as I can tell, the commenter who posted that picture had no idea about its meaning and history.  The change in the Eighth green that is so easy to ridicule in that old photograph is much like the changes we are often seeing made to golf courses to combat technology (balls)- produced distance gains.  Like changing a hole for spectator sightlines, changes made to guard against technologically-produced distance are rarely good, often destructive and even more often fraught with unintended consequences.  It's best that golf course architecture not be left to club chairmen or golf ball manufacturer executives.  Instead, leave it to architects.

I'm not surprised in the least that it went over your head.  Well done.
Driver: 9.5*
3W: 15*
5W: 19*-ish?
Irons: 4-PW
Wedges: 50*, 54*, 58*
Putter:  Putter

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#90 playa

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 01:45 AM

View Postknock it close, on 30 March 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

Widen 7, cut down the trees on the right on 11. Get rid of any rough and cut down a bunch of trees elsewhere. Get more run out of the fws. Make it so when guys hit it offline it keeps going so the angles at ANGC really come into play, this would encourage more aggressive play which would lead to more birdies and bogeys.


The Masters are at its peak when it favors the bold, nothing worse than a Masters with a bunch of pars. I want birdies, eagles, and others. That's why I don't like 11, with the trees right the approach is so long that everyone just bails short right because they are scared to chase anything on with the mounds.
Agree that bold play should be encouraged. Nothing worse than an Immelman or a Zach Johnson win layingup to 13 and 15 all week.


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