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ANGC Course Changes

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#31 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:24 PM

 cardoustie, on 29 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

#3.  Slightly forward tee - or extend current tee - so more guys would go for it.  Use either Saturday or Sunday.
#6.  Bring back the pond and/or creek that used to front the green, re-shape and shift the front trap to get the H2O closer to the putting surface
#10.  Push the massive old greenside bunker closer to the green so short shots run back down the hill into it
#11.  Massive pine or trap right middle of 11 green to make bail outs more difficult.  Likely trap so the fans on hole #12 grandstands can see the action.  Pond used to go more in front of this green
#12.  Add 10 yards ... sacrilege I know but get the big boys hitting one more iron here
#13.  I understand they spent ~ $20mm for land to extend this tee back further.  Personally, I don’t like the way the Rae’s Creek tributary ends in the middle of the fairway.  That visual could be improved upon and dare I say another bridge pehaps
#14. Bring back the Alister MacKenzie bunkering on the right side of the fairway.  Call it restoration work
#16.  Find a way to add a tee 15-30 yards back
#17.  Perhaps replace Ike’s tree but shift it a little left and farther off the tee

#3: That seems like a viable change, but the hole isn't entirely undrivable today.
#6: The creek/pond was probably 40 or 50 yards short of the green, which would require the hole to be dramatically shortened, or a drastic engineering change to bring it into play. Plus both the 12th and 16th greens are fronted by water, If your desire is to front the 6th with water, why not the 4th too?
#10: Never going to happen.
#11: Why do you believe the up/down from the right is that easy? Why do you believe the pond use to cover more green surface?
#12: I like having the option, but I would not expect it to be used that often. One of the greatest benefits of the lengthening of the game is how the 12th has shifted from a full swing to an often some sort of 3/4 swing.
#13: Where the creek crosses the fairway wouldn't even cross the mind of the pro's, but could greatly affect the play of the members.
$14: It was removed because it was never in play. If anything a similar bunker could be moved closer to the 13th fairway to catch the super long drive that doesn't turn enough but on the whole, not worth the time.
#16: There is room to do this, but what does it add to the hole?
#17: There growing a tree to do this, not sure when it will be ready and if they will decide to replace it.

I'd like explored returning the 7th back to a more appropriate 390-360 yards. Three is the shortest par 4 on the course at 350, with the next shortest hole at 440. This is a very large gap that could be addressed and the green at 7 was designed for a short yardage approach.

The extension of the 5th tee will force the longer players to steer around the bunkers and leave nearly every player an obstructed view to the green for their approach. This would help to return some of the initial intent of the hole back into play. Now they would also need to ensure the approach is kept firm so players can run their approach shots onto the green.

This last one is nitpicking a little, but I'd like to see them move the fairway bunker on 2 a little farther out and in towards the center of the fairway. The fall off to the left on that hole is a lot steeper than most realize and would make for a much tougher tee shot.


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#32 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:33 PM

 hollabachgt, on 30 March 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

 cardoustie, on 29 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

#3.  Slightly forward tee - or extend current tee - so more guys would go for it.  Use either Saturday or Sunday.
#6.  Bring back the pond and/or creek that used to front the green, re-shape and shift the front trap to get the H2O closer to the putting surface
#10.  Push the massive old greenside bunker closer to the green so short shots run back down the hill into it
#11.  Massive pine or trap right middle of 11 green to make bail outs more difficult.  Likely trap so the fans on hole #12 grandstands can see the action.  Pond used to go more in front of this green
#12.  Add 10 yards ... sacrilege I know but get the big boys hitting one more iron here
#13.  I understand they spent ~ $20mm for land to extend this tee back further.  Personally, I don’t like the way the Rae’s Creek tributary ends in the middle of the fairway.  That visual could be improved upon and dare I say another bridge pehaps
#14. Bring back the Alister MacKenzie bunkering on the right side of the fairway.  Call it restoration work
#16.  Find a way to add a tee 15-30 yards back
#17.  Perhaps replace Ike’s tree but shift it a little left and farther off the tee

#3: That seems like a viable change, but the hole isn't entirely undrivable today.
#6: The creek/pond was probably 40 or 50 yards short of the green, which would require the hole to be dramatically shortened, or a drastic engineering change to bring it into play. Plus both the 12th and 16th greens are fronted by water, If your desire is to front the 6th with water, why not the 4th too?
#10: Never going to happen.
#11: Why do you believe the up/down from the right is that easy? Why do you believe the pond use to cover more green surface?
#12: I like having the option, but I would not expect it to be used that often. One of the greatest benefits of the lengthening of the game is how the 12th has shifted from a full swing to an often some sort of 3/4 swing.
#13: Where the creek crosses the fairway wouldn't even cross the mind of the pro's, but could greatly affect the play of the members.
$14: It was removed because it was never in play. If anything a similar bunker could be moved closer to the 13th fairway to catch the super long drive that doesn't turn enough but on the whole, not worth the time.
#16: There is room to do this, but what does it add to the hole?
#17: There growing a tree to do this, not sure when it will be ready and if they will decide to replace it.

I'd like explored returning the 7th back to a more appropriate 390-360 yards. Three is the shortest par 4 on the course at 350, with the next shortest hole at 440. This is a very large gap that could be addressed and the green at 7 was designed for a short yardage approach.

The extension of the 5th tee will force the longer players to steer around the bunkers and leave nearly every player an obstructed view to the green for their approach. This would help to return some of the initial intent of the hole back into play. Now they would also need to ensure the approach is kept firm so players can run their approach shots onto the green.

This last one is nitpicking a little, but I'd like to see them move the fairway bunker on 2 a little farther out and in towards the center of the fairway. The fall off to the left on that hole is a lot steeper than most realize and would make for a much tougher tee shot.

3.  Correct.  Adam Scott was over the back last year.  I'm talkin 15 yards to tempt more guys
11.  Masters.com
13.  It looks odd and unnatural with it ending mid fairway.  Not a playability thing ... aesthetics.  Do the copter flyover
16.  Return it to 6 and 7 irons

Thx for your great detailed reply
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#33 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:47 PM

 cardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:


3.  Correct.  Adam Scott was over the back last year.  I'm talkin 15 yards to tempt more guys
11.  Masters.com
13.  It looks odd and unnatural with it ending mid fairway.  Not a playability thing ... aesthetics.  Do the copter flyover
16.  Return it to 6 and 7 irons

Thx for your great detailed reply

The distance is not what stops many players from trying to drive the green, The slope around the green and the difficult up/down is what encourages them to lay back off of the tee.

masters.com? Please elaborate as to what content on the site you are referring to?

On the property, it's barely even noticeable. Downgrading playability for the membership to improve aesthetics seems like an incredibly poor decision.

Is the scoring average of 16 dropping? When Matt Kuchar made a hole in one last year he was playing a 7 iron. Same with Louis Oosthuizen in 2016.

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#34 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:52 PM

Holla
I am very well versed in the course and the green site nuances .. like 3
I've been there as well
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#35 hollabachgt

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 07:56 PM

 cardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Holla
I am very well versed in the course and the green site nuances .. like 3
I've been there as well

Would you be interested in elaborating more on the questions and concerns I brought up?


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#36 Joebirds55

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:05 PM

 ChillyDipper, on 30 March 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends.   Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier.   Agree with making #3 driveable again.

Donít like the pin change idea for 16. The traditional pin here is iconic.

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#37 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

I just looked up the original AM routing

The creek/tributary on 13 did continue and join the creek between 12 and 11 greens

I was wrong re the pond on 11 .. used to be a creek there front left ... memory sucking at 50
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#38 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:28 PM

 hollabachgt, on 30 March 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

 cardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Holla
I am very well versed in the course and the green site nuances .. like 3
I've been there as well

Would you be interested in elaborating more on the questions and concerns I brought up?

On 11 right, I don't say the up and down is easy.  It isn't.

I personally think the bail out is too attractive.  I know they won't change it because it was the "Hogan play"
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#39 Darth Putter

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:31 PM

 cardoustie, on 29 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

We've done this topic in past years

Here's what I have ... and I am well aware I'm no Tom Fazio.  Just a fun debate on perhaps one of the top 5 iconic courses in the world.   It's been a few years since they did some overhauling and I think we might see changes in play for 2019 ... 13th hole for sure.

#3.  Slightly forward tee - or extend current tee - so more guys would go for it.  Use either Saturday or Sunday.
#6.  Bring back the pond and/or creek that used to front the green, re-shape and shift the front trap to get the H2O closer to the putting surface
#10.  Push the massive old greenside bunker closer to the green so short shots run back down the hill into it
#11.  Massive pine or trap right middle of 11 green to make bail outs more difficult.  Likely trap so the fans on hole #12 grandstands can see the action.  Pond used to go more in front of this green
#12.  Add 10 yards ... sacrilege I know but get the big boys hitting one more iron here
#13.  I understand they spent ~ $20mm for land to extend this tee back further.  Personally, I don’t like the way the Rae’s Creek tributary ends in the middle of the fairway.  That visual could be improved upon and dare I say another bridge pehaps
#14. Bring back the Alister MacKenzie bunkering on the right side of the fairway.  Call it restoration work
#16.  Find a way to add a tee 15-30 yards back
#17.  Perhaps replace Ike’s tree but shift it a little left and farther off the tee

#3: The members tee is listed at 340. I think they can stay the course at the moment and just wait for a day with little west wind.
#6: The green is enough of a problem, the hole doesn't need water.
#10: No change needed.
#11: That is not an easy chip. I'd let Tiger remove four trees of his choice (one for each title) on the right side.
#12: No matter if it's a 6 iron to the back right pin or a gap wedge to the front left one, the wind is what matters here. They might go ten yards back some day.
#13: Once the hole is lengthened, the left side of the green MUST be redone. If the players have to take woods, hybrids and long irons into the green, then the green and the area to the left need to go back closer to what it was before 1983.
#14: The trees on the right are a better hazard, no change needed.
#16: I'm tempted to say, get rid of the left bunker, but I think we can hold off for now.
#17: Again, I'm going to argue to stay the course.

Others

#5 is getting lengthened a lot, so I hope to see it return to being the toughest hole on the front side.
#7 needs more options. Each day the player needs to be presented with a choice, hit short and straight with a long tough approach to a difficult green or hit the driver and  get a flip wedge and a likely birdie if you pull it off. The members tee is still listed at 330 yards.
#15: Put more grass on the front slope to stop the ball from rolling into the lake. Especially on the left side when they use the "pin of death."
#18 Install a ski lift so people can get up that hill.
swing is irrelevant, score is everything

just say NO.... to practice swings

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#40 mshills

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:32 PM

 stu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

 knock it close, on 30 March 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 30 March 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

Re-install Bermuda greens,
With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.

They could stop closing it every Summer and let their members play.. you know, the point of having a golf course.  The issue is the bermuda was never fully out of domancy and there was still rye overseed.  If they had bermuda greens and played in June... forget it.  It would be insanely good.

The typical member just might have another place to play.

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#41 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:47 PM

I tell you what, the course would look waaaaay better with the MacKenzie original style bunkering

I agree with an above poster, the hard edged current bunker style is not the greatest

I think they may have lost the plot a little  in their quest to get bunker edges as close to the greens as possible

So if the whole place is a newer style ... why is the last old style bunker in the middle of 10 so beholden ?
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#42 The Mad Bomber

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:52 PM

One more vote for getting rid of the rough.
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#43 Roadking2003

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:57 PM

View Postfairways4life, on 30 March 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

View Postknock it close, on 30 March 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

Also I would love to see in say a dozen years when Tiger has some more time on his hands for ANGC to give him and Crenshaw the reigns. Nothing against Faz I would just love to see the spin two guys with multiple jackets would put on

My only concern with Crenshaw is that he would want to dig up a ton of turf and replace it with his signature sandy, wirey grass waste areas. Overall I love it, but there's a few courses where I wouldn't be able to live with it and Augusta is number one on that list.

Don't let Crenshaw anywhere near ANCC.  Ever.

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#44 Roadking2003

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:00 PM

View Postcardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Coore and Crenshaw ... yes sir !!!!!!

Any design changes that will free guys up to be bolder ... ie thinning trees .. has my vote

And my vote... to NOT let them anywhere near ANGC.

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#45 Roadking2003

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:04 PM

View Posthollabachgt, on 30 March 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

Is the scoring average of 16 dropping? When Matt Kuchar made a hole in one last year he was playing a 7 iron. Same with Louis Oosthuizen in 2016.

Is scoring dropping at all?

Why change anything?


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#46 ratspros

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:17 PM

1.) Shorten number 4 by 15-20 yards.
2.) Add fairway bunker to left side of fairway of number 8 15-20 yards past bunker on right hand side.
3.) Bring pond of 16 in closer to back side of 15 making more balls that go long roll into the water.


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#47 CEPick

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 12:38 AM

Regarding #12. That has to be the hardest 140-160 yard shot in golf given the position of the hole in the round, the unpredictable breezes, the depth of the green, and the penalty for a miss. No reason to move it back.

Edited by CEPick, 31 March 2018 - 12:39 AM.


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#48 knock it close

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 02:54 AM

View PostNard_S, on 30 March 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

View Postknock it close, on 30 March 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 30 March 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

Re-install Bermuda greens,
With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.

The grain of Bermuda, it's just a bit all the more knarly and is tougher to putt on. They had that till 1980.
Oh gotcha and ya I know they used to have bermuda. I think the committee atleast thinks that bent provides a better putting surface and with the subair and the budget they're able to still keep it firm enough for Masters play and I'm inclined to agree with them. Now if it was a more normal larger budget club with a longer play window I would 100% agree with the switch back to bermuda with their climate
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#49 knock it close

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 03:04 AM

View Postmshills, on 30 March 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

View Poststu_man, on 30 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

View Postknock it close, on 30 March 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 30 March 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

Re-install Bermuda greens,
With them being closed all summer anyways and having sub air would this really do anything? Not being rude actually curious I've never considered that.

They could stop closing it every Summer and let their members play.. you know, the point of having a golf course.  The issue is the bermuda was never fully out of domancy and there was still rye overseed.  If they had bermuda greens and played in June... forget it.  It would be insanely good.

The typical member just might have another place to play.
As a "National club" I'd be inclined to agree. Even the local members I would believe would have games at Wade or somewhere else in the mountains, is the Country Club next door open in the summer?
M2, maybe
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#50 knock it close

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 03:10 AM

View Postcardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

View Posthollabachgt, on 30 March 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

View Postcardoustie, on 30 March 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Holla
I am very well versed in the course and the green site nuances .. like 3
I've been there as well

Would you be interested in elaborating more on the questions and concerns I brought up?

On 11 right, I don't say the up and down is easy.  It isn't.

I personally think the bail out is too attractive.  I know they won't change it because it was the "Hogan play"
I've heard what Hogan said re:bailout but I think it is even more attractive now because the length, the mounds shorter right, and the trees which take away the angle. You could alter anyone of those to get play more aggressive and it would be a better option than a bunker imo and I'd be most inclined to do some clear cutting on the right side to restore the angle.

Obviously ANGC is an all world venue but the best part is we see it every year so I think critiques are fair game because we can see it played in a variety of weather and wind conditions.

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#51 fairways4life

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 06:05 AM

View PostCEPick, on 31 March 2018 - 12:38 AM, said:

Regarding #12. That has to be the hardest 140-160 yard shot in golf given the position of the hole in the round, the unpredictable breezes, the depth of the green, and the penalty for a miss. No reason to move it back.

Agreed. That hole is perfect the way it is, don't mess with a good thing. All the best par 3s in the world are short.

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#52 ChillyDipper

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:01 AM

View PostJoebirds55, on 30 March 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

View PostChillyDipper, on 30 March 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends.   Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier.   Agree with making #3 driveable again.

Donít like the pin change idea for 16. The traditional pin here is iconic.

Yeah I know what you mean. But itís not very risk reward.   Itís located at the bottom of the hill. Most people who hit the Green are within 8í of the whole.
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#53 Roadking2003

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:19 AM

View PostChillyDipper, on 31 March 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

View PostJoebirds55, on 30 March 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

View PostChillyDipper, on 30 March 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends.   Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier.   Agree with making #3 driveable again.

Don't like the pin change idea for 16. The traditional pin here is iconic.

Yeah I know what you mean. But it's not very risk reward.   It's located at the bottom of the hill. Most people who hit the Green are within 8' of the whole.

Quite the opposite.  It's very risk / reward.  If you pull it, you're in the water with a likely double bogey.  If you push it one yard right of the hill, you are struggling to two putt.

Last year it played over par every day.

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#54 Ajit

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 08:37 AM

Nice thread.

4 is too long
7 is probably too long
11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.
13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.

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#55 ChillyDipper

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 09:16 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 31 March 2018 - 08:19 AM, said:

View PostChillyDipper, on 31 March 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

View PostJoebirds55, on 30 March 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

View PostChillyDipper, on 30 March 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Take away the rough so the course plays as it intends.   Move the Sunday pin on 16 to the upper tier.   Agree with making #3 driveable again.

Don't like the pin change idea for 16. The traditional pin here is iconic.

Yeah I know what you mean. But it's not very risk reward.   It's located at the bottom of the hill. Most people who hit the Green are within 8' of the whole.

Quite the opposite.  It's very risk / reward.  If you pull it, you're in the water with a likely double bogey.  If you push it one yard right of the hill, you are struggling to two putt.

Last year it played over par every day.

I take it back then, but keep in mind I was talking about the Sunday pin only.

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#56 TheLarch

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 09:20 AM

The only thing I'd change is to thin out a lot of the trees on the left side of #5 so the hole is more visible from the rest of the course.
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#57 Roadking2003

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:01 AM

View PostAjit, on 31 March 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Nice thread.

4 is too long
7 is probably too long
11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.
13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.

I like 13 as it is.  In my opinion, tough holes are not needed to be good holes.  The excitement is driven by the scoring spread. It's exciting when scores from eagle to double bogey are in play.   A tough hole where almost everybody makes par is boring.

That's why #13 is a great hole.  Last year there were six eagles, 128 birdies, 131 pars, 22 bogeys and five double bogeys.  Almost the same number of double bogeys as eagles.   That's exciting golf!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it's the easiest hole on the course but it's probably one of the top three in excitement.

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#58 elwhippy

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 10:09 AM

Take 11 back to 440 yards. To see players deliberately missing a green means the hole is now too long. Take 7 back to 360-380. That green will be tougher for higher spinning wedges. Use another part of 16th green. The last day pin is set up too easy. Stick last day pins on 15 at the far right and 18 back right.

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#59 Ajit

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 31 March 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

View PostAjit, on 31 March 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Nice thread.

4 is too long
7 is probably too long
11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.
13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.

I like 13 as it is.  In my opinion, tough holes are not needed to be good holes.  The excitement is driven by the scoring spread. It's exciting when scores from eagle to double bogey are in play.   A tough hole where almost everybody makes par is boring.

That's why #13 is a great hole.  Last year there were six eagles, 128 birdies, 131 pars, 22 bogeys and five double bogeys.  Almost the same number of double bogeys as eagles.   That's exciting golf!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it's the easiest hole on the course but it's probably one of the top three in excitement.

Yes it is exciting but it was more exciting, in my opinion, when players were hitting fairway woods and long irons into it. I can remember Faldo's pure 2 iron in 1996 as clearly as any shot I've seen.

ANGC have already spent $20million+ acquiring the extra land so it's very likely to happen.

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#60 stu_man

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 02:11 PM

View PostAjit, on 31 March 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 31 March 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

View PostAjit, on 31 March 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Nice thread.

4 is too long
7 is probably too long
11 needs some trees removed on the right so that players are encouraged to try and cut the corner.
13 probably needs to be toughened up, at the moment 10, 11 and 12 are the real Amen corner.

I like 13 as it is.  In my opinion, tough holes are not needed to be good holes.  The excitement is driven by the scoring spread. It's exciting when scores from eagle to double bogey are in play.   A tough hole where almost everybody makes par is boring.

That's why #13 is a great hole.  Last year there were six eagles, 128 birdies, 131 pars, 22 bogeys and five double bogeys.  Almost the same number of double bogeys as eagles.   That's exciting golf!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it's the easiest hole on the course but it's probably one of the top three in excitement.

Yes it is exciting but it was more exciting, in my opinion, when players were hitting fairway woods and long irons into it. I can remember Faldo's pure 2 iron in 1996 as clearly as any shot I've seen.

ANGC have already spent $20million+ acquiring the extra land so it's very likely to happen.

Faldo hit that 2 iron where everyone is hitting 5 iron now.  Anything further back and you are blocked out and will just lay up.  Players are hitting shots into that green from the same areas that players in years past were hitting woods.. it's just that they hit their irons so much farther now.  I don't know how you combat that without moving the green, which isn't going to happen.   It's a perfect hole already.


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