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Do we undervalue CONSISTENCY and MAJOR RESULTS?


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#1 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:43 AM

I'd say YES Considering that OWGR #3 Jon Rahm's best finish EVER at a major is t23 while Steve Stricker, who has made the cut at the last 26 majors he has played, has not even been invited to play the Masters.

Of the players listed, Stricker is the only to make the cut at all 4 majors in 2017, yet he is the only one not invited to the Masters...not saying the others don't deserve to be there, just that we tend to overlook consistently good results.

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Edited by SkiSchoolPro, 12 March 2018 - 09:45 AM.

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#2 McCann1

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:33 AM

The man that is consistently good will have a worse career than the man that misses cuts and occasionally shows streaks of greatness. Just how it’s always been
Enjoy the chase.

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#3 imakaveli

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins

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#4 cdnglf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.

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#5 irvtrain

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:08 AM

Interesting point. All the players want an invite to the Masters and the Masters Committee has their criteria for invites and almost never give one out unless the player is running hot. Maybe with his win on the Champions Tour will be enough to get last minute invite? Not sure when they send out their last one.

P.S you're noticalby absent in the CO WRX thread lol. We'll need to get another outing this year.


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#6 Bye

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:26 AM

It looks harsh on paper. But he is 51, time to give some of the younger players a chance. And the past champions have won the right to go back.
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#7 JaNelson38

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:35 AM

Yes, consistency is undervalued.  But I dont think Stricker has earned a Masters invite any more than a guy like Sharma has.  Im still of the opinion Sharma got his Masters invite basically because he became a media darling for a week due to his interactions with Phil Mickelson.  I mean, Corey Conners did at the Valspar this week basically what Sharma did at the WGC-Mexico - lead for three rounds with solid play and then fall apart on Sunday.  But I dont see ANGC with a Masters invite for Conners today.

Either you earn the invite through the qualification criteria or you dont.  There are PGA Tour winners who dont get Masters invites because they won "off events" that the Tour doesnt give full FedEx Cup points for - which is a joke in and of itself.  

If ANGC wants to involve more of the global golf community in their tournament, then give certain Euro Tour event winners invites.  Or give invites to the top 5 players on the Order of Merit or something like that.  Stay away from the special invites, especially when some PGA Tour winners arent invited.

Edited by JaNelson38, 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM.


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#8 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.
Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins
Who would you rather have as your partner playing a Nassau- a scratch golfer who always shots 72 or one who occasionally puts consecutive rounds in the 60s together, but usually doesn't break 80?
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#9 imakaveli

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.
Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins
Who would you rather have as your partner playing a Nassau- a scratch golfer who always shots 72 or one who occasionally puts consecutive rounds in the 60s together, but usually doesn't break 80?

Me? A consistent player, but that was not my point

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#10 JaNelson38

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:44 AM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

Steve made the choice years ago to cut back his schedule and to transition to the Champions Tour.  If he was still a full-time PGA Tour player, there's no doubt in my mind that he'd be in all the majors, either through victory or top 50 OWGR.  And I think if he had it to do over again he wouldnt have cut back so much, because once he did he said himself he started missing playing in the majors.  But he's now paying the price for those decisions of a few years ago.

Steve will still get into majors this year.  Im sure he'll qualify for the US Open again, he'll have a good chance to make the Open Championship, and as long as he plays well in his PGA Tour events he'll be high enough in the OWGR to make the PGA Championship.  He just won't be at Augusta unless he wins at Houston.

Edited by JaNelson38, 12 March 2018 - 11:45 AM.


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#11 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:56 AM

View PostJaNelson38, on 12 March 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yes, consistency is undervalued...Either you earn the invite through the qualification criteria or you dont.  

About half the Masters invites are determined by the OWGR. Until a few weeks ago, the OWGR had Rahm ahead of Justin Thomas. Rahm has NEVER beaten Stricker or finished better than 23rd IN A MAJOR, yet he is OWGR #3. Finishing 16th at last years Masters currently gives Stricker 5.33 OWGR points while finishing 11th of 18 players at the Hero World Challenge is currently worth 6.1 points. IMO there are flaws in the criteria.

@
JaNelson38

brings up some valid points, but is it better to force golfers to adjust their schedules to have the best chance to qualify, or adjust the qualifying criteria to get the best golfers? There isn't a golfer on the Planet who has a longer current major made cut streak than Stricker. In fact, most of the OWGR Top 10 & 50 haven't even made the cuts at the last 6 majors, let alone the last 26 they played.

Edited by SkiSchoolPro, 12 March 2018 - 12:10 PM.

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#12 cdnglf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:09 PM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.
Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins
Who would you rather have as your partner playing a Nassau- a scratch golfer who always shots 72 or one who occasionally puts consecutive rounds in the 60s together, but usually doesn't break 80?

Yes, it is that simple. The Champions Tour isn't part of the OWGR, for obvious reasons. If he wants to play in majors, he should play a full schedule of owgr events.
If he did, there's a good chance he'd qualify via the OWGR.

Results in recent majors do count for entry: they factor into the owgr calculation.
Also, for at least some of the majors the top N finishers in the previous year get an invite. For example, the Masters invites the top 12 from last year's Masters, and the top 4 from the other majors.

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#13 Vindog

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:15 PM

Forget the OWGR and where it has Rahm for a minute. He has won at least one PGA tour event, thereby qualifying him into the Masters.

You’ve picked a poor example. It really is that simple.

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#14 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:43 PM

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.
Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins
Who would you rather have as your partner playing a Nassau- a scratch golfer who always shots 72 or one who occasionally puts consecutive rounds in the 60s together, but usually doesn't break 80?

Yes, it is that simple. The Champions Tour isn't part of the OWGR, for obvious reasons. If he wants to play in majors, he should play a full schedule of owgr events.
If he did, there's a good chance he'd qualify via the OWGR.

Results in recent majors do count for entry: they factor into the owgr calculation.
Also, for at least some of the majors the top N finishers in the previous year get an invite. For example, the Masters invites the top 12 from last year's Masters, and the top 4 from the other majors.

The OWGR counts, Nordic Golf League, Canadian, Asian Developmental, Sunshine, & China Tour events, so why not the Champions Tour? Yes, it is the only one with an age restriction, but the strength of field is likely still stronger than many OWGR events.

Yes, majors count, but do they count enough? Why is bottom half of field at Tiger's event worth more than t16 at Masters?

Is a player who finished t12 at last years Masters and missed cuts at other 3 majors really more qualified to play in the Masters than a player who finished t16 at last years Master and made the cut at the other 3 majors? Yes, Russell Henley beat Stricker by a shot at the 2017 Masters, but Stricker was 10 shots better than him at the other 3 majors- that only translates into less than 1 extra OWGR point currently.
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#15 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:50 PM

View PostVindog, on 12 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

Forget the OWGR and where it has Rahm for a minute. He has won at least one PGA tour event, thereby qualifying him into the Masters.

You've picked a poor example. It really is that simple.

Not saying Rahm does't deserve his Masters invite, of course he does. My point in picking Rahm is that the OWGR isn't perfect, yet it is one of the most important qualification categories. If the OWGR rankings used a proper weighted average and counted Majors more heavily, Rahm would have never been ranked ahead of Thomas and Spieth. My opinion is that the OWGR should not devalue the last 4 Majors played...counting the last 4 majors played at full value would help players like Stricker.

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#16 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:52 PM

Not sure but given the choice I'd take Stricker's career any day over some flash in the pan that wins a major and then barely does anything noteworthy in golf again.

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#17 cdnglf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:57 PM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

View Postcdnglf, on 12 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

If Stricker wants to play in the majors, he should play a full schedule. End of story.
Is it really that simple? He is 51 years old. He has played 37 events the past 2 years (6 Majors, 19 Regular PGA, 8 Champion Tour, 3 Other PGA & 1 Euro Tour Event) but the OWGR only counts 26 of those. In that time, he has made the cut at every major, was 4th at the 2016 Open, won twice, and had 11 top 5s vs only 3 missed cuts. He is a PROFESSIONAL golfer, so why wouldn't he play the Sr Tour Events that pay him more $, even if they don't count for the OWGR. Why shouldn't cumulative results in recent majors count for entry to those majors?  

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins
Who would you rather have as your partner playing a Nassau- a scratch golfer who always shots 72 or one who occasionally puts consecutive rounds in the 60s together, but usually doesn't break 80?

Yes, it is that simple. The Champions Tour isn't part of the OWGR, for obvious reasons. If he wants to play in majors, he should play a full schedule of owgr events.
If he did, there's a good chance he'd qualify via the OWGR.

Results in recent majors do count for entry: they factor into the owgr calculation.
Also, for at least some of the majors the top N finishers in the previous year get an invite. For example, the Masters invites the top 12 from last year's Masters, and the top 4 from the other majors.

The OWGR counts, Nordic Golf League, Canadian, Asian Developmental, Sunshine, & China Tour events, so why not the Champions Tour? Yes, it is the only one with an age restriction, but the strength of field is likely still stronger than many OWGR events.

Yes, majors count, but do they count enough? Why is bottom half of field at Tiger's event worth more than t16 at Masters?

Is a player who finished t12 at last years Masters and missed cuts at other 3 majors really more qualified to play in the Masters than a player who finished t16 at last years Master and made the cut at the other 3 majors? Yes, Russell Henley beat Stricker by a shot at the 2017 Masters, but Stricker was 10 shots better than him at the other 3 majors- that only translates into less than 1 extra OWGR point currently.

You answered your own question wrt Champions Tour. Also, carts.

Yes, the OWGR's handling of Tiger's event is dumb and indefensible.

You're cherrypicking for reasons for Stricker to be in the field. But the biggest reason he isn't is his choice to only play ~60% of a minimum schedule.

Edited by cdnglf, 12 March 2018 - 12:57 PM.


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#18 Dave230

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:09 PM

We do undervalue consistency. But it is hard to argue that 50 yo Stricker with no wins recently and no majors in his career should be there.

The best players should be at majors. The week to week Tour is the best indicator of the best players in the world.

Saying that Stricker is a better player than Rahm because he finished ahead of him in the majors last year is a frankly laughable suggestion.

Edited by Dave230, 12 March 2018 - 01:09 PM.


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#19 airjammer

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:35 PM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 12 March 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Not sure but given the choice I'd take Stricker's career any day over some flash in the pan that wins a major and then barely does anything noteworthy in golf again.

As would I, there are regular tour events with better fields than some of the majors in particular the Masters.  Jack use to not hold the majors in such high favor as he does now. There’s no reason the players shouldn’t be a major..it has the best field and is played at the same course just like the Masters. The majors, are just events that the tour/media has portrayed as “important” trying to bring golf to the forefront of non avid golfers mind every few months.

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#20 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 03:50 PM

View PostDave230, on 12 March 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

We do undervalue consistency. But it is hard to argue that 50 yo Stricker with no wins recently and no majors in his career should be there.

The best players should be at majors. The week to week Tour is the best indicator of the best players in the world.

Saying that Stricker is a better player than Rahm because he finished ahead of him in the majors last year is a frankly laughable suggestion.

I agree that the best players should be in the majors. When Stricker tees it up, he is a Top 50 player, especially when it comes to the Majors (& Players).

Not saying Stricker is better than Rahm, but going back to last years Masters, Stricker has bested Rahm 6 of 10 times with 1 tie in the tournaments they have both played. Stricker's record in last years Majors (& Players where he hasn't missed when playing since 2012, when he won the Tournament of Champions) vs the current OWGR Top 10 is also favorable.

The Sagarin/GolfWeek rankings, which value consistency and head to head results over the past 12 months, have Stricker #17 in the World, just behind Rahm who they have #13. http://rankings.golf....asp?T=world  I realize that these rankings are not in-line with public opinion as they don't appear to put much of a premium on winning, but it is notable that all of the current top 20, except Stricker, will likely be in the Masters.

Its not only Tiger's event that give out (almost) free OWGR points. The WGC also favor top 50 players by giving points for less than good results (i.e. Stricker gets 0 points for winning on Sr Tour while Kuchar gets points the same week for finishing 24 back in Mexico). People forget Stricker had back surgery at the end of 2014.and hasn't been invited to a WGC event since.

The Masters would be a stronger field with Stricker in it.

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#21 Darth Putter

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:08 PM

I do undervalue consistency when compared to winning and will continue to do so. The Saragin golf ratings are a bigger joke than the NCAA's RPI formula for college basketball.

There is no Sectional Qualifying to save Steve this time, unlike when we had this same argument last summer when he didn't get a Special Exemption into the US Open.
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#22 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:33 PM

View PostDarth Putter, on 12 March 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I do undervalue consistency when compared to winning and will continue to do so. The Saragin golf ratings are a bigger joke than the NCAA's RPI formula for college basketball.

There is no Sectional Qualifying to save Steve this time, unlike when we had this same argument last summer when he didn't get a Special Exemption into the US Open.
where he finished t16 after winning the qualifier.

You can vote on which Ranking produces the best top 50 at http://www.golfwrx.c...76-best-top-50/
(IMO, there is not a clear-cut winner in terms of which ranking is the best to use as a qualification criteria...most likely a hybrid is best).
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#23 legitimategolf

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:48 PM

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins

Fake news! Rickie got a bunch of top 5s a few years ago and you all made a huge deal out of that.

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#24 rawdog

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:27 PM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 12 March 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostDarth Putter, on 12 March 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I do undervalue consistency when compared to winning and will continue to do so. The Saragin golf ratings are a bigger joke than the NCAA's RPI formula for college basketball.

There is no Sectional Qualifying to save Steve this time, unlike when we had this same argument last summer when he didn't get a Special Exemption into the US Open.
where he finished t16 after winning the qualifier.

You can vote on which Ranking produces the best top 50 at http://www.golfwrx.c...76-best-top-50/
(IMO, there is not a clear-cut winner in terms of which ranking is the best to use as a qualification criteria...most likely a hybrid is best).

Sagarin did have Paul Casey #1 last week... FWIW.

Sagarin is pretty well respected in the handicapping/rating community.
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#25 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:31 PM

You say Consistency is undervalued but mention Rahm being #3 in the same sentence? LOL.

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#26 Hawkeye77

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:42 PM

View PostJaNelson38, on 12 March 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yes, consistency is undervalued.  But I dont think Stricker has earned a Masters invite any more than a guy like Sharma has.  Im still of the opinion Sharma got his Masters invite basically because he became a media darling for a week due to his interactions with Phil Mickelson.  I mean, Corey Conners did at the Valspar this week basically what Sharma did at the WGC-Mexico - lead for three rounds with solid play and then fall apart on Sunday.  But I dont see ANGC with a Masters invite for Conners today.

Either you earn the invite through the qualification criteria or you dont.  There are PGA Tour winners who dont get Masters invites because they won "off events" that the Tour doesnt give full FedEx Cup points for - which is a joke in and of itself.  

If ANGC wants to involve more of the global golf community in their tournament, then give certain Euro Tour event winners invites.  Or give invites to the top 5 players on the Order of Merit or something like that.  Stay away from the special invites, especially when some PGA Tour winners arent invited.

Connors leading the Race to Dubai? How many tournaments has he won?



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#27 Hawkeye77

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:43 PM

Way too much hand wringing because so and so didn't automatically qualify.

And people that don't think the Masters hasn't probably done more to advance the game globally than most when others weren't, haven't paid attention for 40+ years.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 12 March 2018 - 07:45 PM.


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#28 Vindog

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:45 PM

Sagarin ranking would be a great tool for the bettor. After that it’s not really on point.
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#29 imakaveli

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:13 AM

View Postlegitimategolf, on 12 March 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

View Postimakaveli, on 12 March 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Nobody cares about consistency, we care about wins and basically we care only about Major wins

Fake news! Rickie got a bunch of top 5s a few years ago and you all made a huge deal out of that.

Yeah, because we were able to see his girlfriend more often ;)

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#30 Ferguson

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:50 AM

Consistency is a fine unit of measure for the nostalgic, and those who drink blush wines.  


Steve failed to qualify.


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