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Crossfield reviews TM M4 Driver


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#61 dcmidnight

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:49 AM

I've done one or two of those before, they arent great but they arent nothing. But now you're trying to compare in person fittings - whatever you may think about them - to a discussion on claims that OEMs make in commercials? I'm not going to make that leap but OK.

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#62 Derek666

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:53 AM

I seem to remember Mark was doing stuff with GolfWRX or am i wrong? Sure i saw your logo on some vids.

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#63 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

I've done one or two of those before, they arent great but they arent nothing. But now you're trying to compare in person fittings - whatever you may think about them - to a discussion on claims that OEMs make in commercials? I'm not going to make that leap but OK.

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#64 dcmidnight

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:00 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.

The intent of this commercial is deceiving at best. "Look at our graphs, look at how SOFT and LONG this ball is comapred to the other OEMs 4 and 5 piece tour balls! GRAPHS!" It doesnt mention anything about 2 piece balls vs 5 piece balls. Nothing about the level of player.

If their intent is so...I dont know, innocent - why not compare/graph the Tour Soft against other 2 piece balls?




Apologize for continuing the threadjack, I should know better.
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#65 Nixhex524

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:51 AM

View PostLondoner, on 13 March 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostNixhex524, on 12 March 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

View PostLondoner, on 12 March 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 12 March 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View PostLondoner, on 12 March 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

It sounded to me as if his lawyer, or Titleist, or both, told him to grow up and stop being like a stupid child.
He tried.
It won't last.

A friend of mine told me about this video earlier today and said almost word for word what you have.

I've just watched his old R15 video. He was complementary about the club but started bashing their marketing. Maybe they just had enough. Can't blame them really.

This goes back a long way. Nothing to do with the M4 driver or twistface. TM cut him off long before.
I'm surprised Titleist want to be associated with him.

What's the old saying, even bad press is good press?  I guess it could be viewed as such depending on which side you stand...



I just don't get why TM gets a free pass to take their ball and go home because Mark takes offense to their ridiculous marketing claims and voices it, yet somehow he's the crybaby...LOL. To me, he wasn't as much complaining about TM not giving him product as much as he was exposing the fact that they do not take well to any kind of criticism.  He can obviously give a decent review without further bashing them, TM just looks like a bunch of wannabe elitists from all this.  Ironic to me.
I think all brands make ridiculous claims. Mark was very insulting about TM some time ago and very juvenile with it. Thats why he didnt get the first launch invite. He then posted videos sulking about no invite. Then more videos threatening and quoting business e mails. Then the totally juvenile invisible club video. TM arent scared of him, they just dont want to deal with him. I cant blame them.

I won't disagree that all OEM make "ridiculous" claims but that doesn't mean that TM can't get called on it, just like anyone else.  Again, why are we being so sensitive about TM??  They literally claimed their driver was 17 yards longer than their previous driver, so when that doesn't happen you're going to have to expect some backlash and jabbing at some point.  Don't like it?  Then market your product with some actual, tested, factual data.  What was so insulting that he said?  I'd have to go back and watch but it can't be worse than the things people have said about him around here since the Titleist signing, but when you're in the public eye, you are open to ridicule and should be ready for it... seems TM weren't prepared for it and instead of trying to have a discussion about it, they take their toys and go home.  In my eye, they kind of deserve the criticism for not having the faith in their own products or marketing claims.  If Mark is open to harsh criticism, TM for sure gets no pass.

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#66 Nixhex524

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:05 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.

The intent of this commercial is deceiving at best. "Look at our graphs, look at how SOFT and LONG this ball is comapred to the other OEMs 4 and 5 piece tour balls! GRAPHS!" It doesnt mention anything about 2 piece balls vs 5 piece balls. Nothing about the level of player.

If their intent is so...I dont know, innocent - why not compare/graph the Tour Soft against other 2 piece balls?




Apologize for continuing the threadjack, I should know better.

We can have issues all day long with what the commercials are telling us.  I won't argue that... that's why it's good to have people, like these youtubers, who are willing to put these pieces of equipment to the test on actual monitors so we can get some idea of real world performance.... yet, we're not happy with that either.  Honestly, I think we owe TM a "thanks buddy" considering their claims in the past have made us question what we're being told is true or not.
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#67 Pure745

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:15 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

View PostPure745, on 12 March 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

The difference is marketing (obviously), Titleist doesn't do it, TM/Cally do.

No way. Titleist is guilty right now of the biggest offender in the absolute joke, fake marketing ads. Their Tour Soft ads seem to attempt to compare the feel of the Tour Soft to the ChromeSoft and TP5s and one other ball. They flash these "graphs" that to Joe Public is intended to say woah, look how soft this ball is, its softer than these big name balls - because, GRAPHS!! Comparing a low compression 2 piece ball to a 4 and 5 piece tour ball...what a joke. Sorry but I really hate that commercial.

I'm specifically talking about the marketing of drivers, not balls.  I agree with you on your statement re: balls.
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#68 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:18 AM

View PostNixhex524, on 13 March 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.

The intent of this commercial is deceiving at best. "Look at our graphs, look at how SOFT and LONG this ball is comapred to the other OEMs 4 and 5 piece tour balls! GRAPHS!" It doesnt mention anything about 2 piece balls vs 5 piece balls. Nothing about the level of player.

If their intent is so...I dont know, innocent - why not compare/graph the Tour Soft against other 2 piece balls?




Apologize for continuing the threadjack, I should know better.

We can have issues all day long with what the commercials are telling us.  I won't argue that... that's why it's good to have people, like these youtubers, who are willing to put these pieces of equipment to the test on actual monitors so we can get some idea of real world performance.... yet, we're not happy with that either.  Honestly, I think we owe TM a "thanks buddy" considering their claims in the past have made us question what we're being told is true or not.

Yeah nothing settles a performance claim like a 5-handicapper slapping half a dozen balls off a mat and showing his GC2 numbers.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#69 Nixhex524

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:43 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostNixhex524, on 13 March 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.

The intent of this commercial is deceiving at best. "Look at our graphs, look at how SOFT and LONG this ball is comapred to the other OEMs 4 and 5 piece tour balls! GRAPHS!" It doesnt mention anything about 2 piece balls vs 5 piece balls. Nothing about the level of player.

If their intent is so...I dont know, innocent - why not compare/graph the Tour Soft against other 2 piece balls?




Apologize for continuing the threadjack, I should know better.

We can have issues all day long with what the commercials are telling us.  I won't argue that... that's why it's good to have people, like these youtubers, who are willing to put these pieces of equipment to the test on actual monitors so we can get some idea of real world performance.... yet, we're not happy with that either.  Honestly, I think we owe TM a "thanks buddy" considering their claims in the past have made us question what we're being told is true or not.

Yeah nothing settles a performance claim like a 5-handicapper slapping half a dozen balls off a mat and showing his GC2 numbers.

Who said that it settles anything?  I realize its easier to believe what they spoon-feed you rather than take a look at real data.  That in no way means the data extends to everyone but at least there's some fact in there.
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#70 paztormike

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:56 AM

Let's face it. 95% of the manufacturer claims surrounding new golf club technology is just marketing hype and has little to do with actual performance.
I'm assuming that all of us have some sort of breaking point where we stop being wowed by the newest sales pitch and start becoming skeptical and cynical toward all of it. As far as I am aware, Crossfield does not sell clubs or work for a course, pro shop or driving range any more. It certainly does not benefit him to regurgitate all of the marketing bullet points. He does not make more money based off of a rave review. He has a lot fewer reasons to tolerate manufacturers' talking points and certainly does not feel bound by them.

I like what he and Rich Shiels are doing much better now than a few years ago. They are trying all of the new equipment on a launch monitor as well as on a course and showing us that new tech is more helpful for getting players properly fit for equipment. But very few advancements in helping us hit the ball consistently better and score better.

I, for one, think that what Crossfield is doing with Titleist is really intriguing. He in under contract with Titleist, and did a video showing that he still likes his old ping hybrid more than anything that Titleist can brew up for him; and his Vokey wedge fitting was fascinating and ended up with him saying that playing golf in California would be far better for his short game than new bounces and grinds and new wedges. He is at least as critical of the company that is paying him as he is with anyone. I like that he posted a video saying that he is going to be working on his short game and challenging himself to get better, and was even asking for help and suggestions.

I think it's pretty cool that these youtubers (who provide content that I can watch 100% for free) are actually no longer just spitting out bullet points and trying to prove the bullet points, but now are actually trying to do something honest to show why they choose their equipment and how it actually impacts their scores.


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#71 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

View PostNixhex524, on 13 March 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostNixhex524, on 13 March 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 13 March 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

No Bridgestone's marketing is built around the notion of different balls for different clubhead speeds and classes of players.

Titleist's is built around the notion that all their balls work great for any clubhead speed or class or players and you ought to try them and play the one you like best.

They both have their story and they are sticking to it.

The intent of this commercial is deceiving at best. "Look at our graphs, look at how SOFT and LONG this ball is comapred to the other OEMs 4 and 5 piece tour balls! GRAPHS!" It doesnt mention anything about 2 piece balls vs 5 piece balls. Nothing about the level of player.

If their intent is so...I dont know, innocent - why not compare/graph the Tour Soft against other 2 piece balls?




Apologize for continuing the threadjack, I should know better.

We can have issues all day long with what the commercials are telling us.  I won't argue that... that's why it's good to have people, like these youtubers, who are willing to put these pieces of equipment to the test on actual monitors so we can get some idea of real world performance.... yet, we're not happy with that either.  Honestly, I think we owe TM a "thanks buddy" considering their claims in the past have made us question what we're being told is true or not.

Yeah nothing settles a performance claim like a 5-handicapper slapping half a dozen balls off a mat and showing his GC2 numbers.

Who said that it settles anything?  I realize its easier to believe what they spoon-feed you rather than take a look at real data.  That in no way means the data extends to everyone but at least there's some fact in there.

What you see in those videos does not rise to the level of “data”.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#72 terrell75

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:02 AM

View PostMarkFromTheUK, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

TM seem to be a good judge of character.
IMG_1520956892.690789.jpg
Great golfer, questionable character. Sponsored by TM.

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#73 Nixhex524

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:09 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:


What you see in those videos does not rise to the level of "data".

How so?  I appreciate your cryptic response but why don't you elaborate.
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#74 Z1ggy16

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:16 AM

Seemed like a fair, honest review. He didn't really bash TM nor did he promote Titleist.

As per the usual, nothing astounding bout M3/M4 (nor any other driver really) and it comes down to preferred looks and sound at this point. Perhaps small differences in CG placement or MOI be a factor for very good players, but for a mortal ball striker like me, all I really look at is address looks, feel/sound.
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#75 Middler

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:37 AM

I enjoy Crossfields videos because while all the YouTube golf vloggers are cautious about criticizing any industry players, Mark seems a little more candid and thought provoking. All his reviews still seem reasonable to me, including yesterday’s M4 review. And his videos aren’t just one dry ball data club review after another like some, those get boring unless you’re shopping for new clubs.

It’s TM’s prerogative to be suspicious of Marks reviews once he signed with Titleist, but time will tell if that was a mistake, or inconsequential to both. And Mark carried the TM snarky comments on a little too long. But nothing has changed for Mark other than he has to buy or borrow TM clubs instead of getting them from TM - not a big issue.

I still enjoy Crossfields videos more than most, but that’s personal taste. He is making his living on YouTube, and they all have sponsors to varying degrees, most clothing. They have a right to get paid, producing quality videos is more work than many people realize. I suspect TM and Crossfield will get along again in time.

Edited by Middler, 13 March 2018 - 11:40 AM.

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#76 MG 1977

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM

View Postterrell75, on 13 March 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

View PostMarkFromTheUK, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

TM seem to be a good judge of character.
IMG_1520956892.690789.jpg
Great golfer, questionable character. Sponsored by TM.

Yeah that charity work and all

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#77 dunn

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:39 PM

It's because he is right, the marketing is BS almost 100% of the time.....i own M4 and had R1,R11,R15,M2's and blah blah.....
Yes it's good driver but none of em lived up to what was claimed....

My buddy still has his R1 and I've changed constantly....our balls are same distance from each other through all of the drivers I have hit

I don't blame TM cuz they gotta sell new product..but someone calls it like it is and he is the bad guy, lol
.....umm, ok


Edited by dunn, 13 March 2018 - 07:41 PM.


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#78 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:46 PM

It does take a certain amount of chutzpah to release “reviews” of new clubs a dozen or so times a month while saying, “they all perform about the same, just pick the one you like”. In a rational world you’d think after, I dunno, maybe the first 100 videos everyone would get the point and nobody would watch any more of them. But he keeps churning them out and people keep watching.

Crossfileld has to be scratching his head and wondering...all the way to the bank.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#79 Medic

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:28 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

It does take a certain amount of chutzpah to release “reviews” of new clubs a dozen or so times a month while saying, “they all perform about the same, just pick the one you like”. In a rational world you’d think after, I dunno, maybe the first 100 videos everyone would get the point and nobody would watch any more of them. But he keeps churning them out and people keep watching.

Crossfileld has to be scratching his head and wondering...all the way to the bank.

With few exceptions.

He really does seem to love that Custom Shop putter.

And he kept those Mizuno irons in his bag for quite some time. There have also been other stand-out pieces of equipment that he said he could game. Never thought I'd see the day he would take Rinky out of his bag.
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#80 Londoner

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 05:30 AM

View PostMG 1977, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

View Postterrell75, on 13 March 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

View PostMarkFromTheUK, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

TM seem to be a good judge of character.
IMG_1520956892.690789.jpg
Great golfer, questionable character. Sponsored by TM.

Yeah that charity work and all

And thats ALL you see. Never anything questionable?
Sorry, i think thats a bit blinkered.

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#81 anth

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 05:44 AM

What do you call it when you bag one OEM for “false and misleading advertising” but give another OEM a free pass when they do the same?

Is that still called hypocrisy or have we changed the meaning of that now?
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#82 Middler

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 06:45 AM

View PostMedic, on 13 March 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Never thought I'd see the day he would take Rinky out of his bag.
I watched the Rinky Dink vs Titleist hybrid video, but did he replace Rinky after all? I didn’t catch that.
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#83 Hjosh7_

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:45 AM

View PostMiddler, on 14 March 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

View PostMedic, on 13 March 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Never thought I'd see the day he would take Rinky out of his bag.
I watched the Rinky Dink vs Titleist hybrid video, but did he replace Rinky after all? I didn’t catch that.

I think he is contemplating it. He said in a video yesterday that he's using 15 clubs for his filming in Turkey, so he's using both right now.
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#84 MG 1977

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:01 AM

View PostLondoner, on 14 March 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

View PostMG 1977, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

View Postterrell75, on 13 March 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

View PostMarkFromTheUK, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

TM seem to be a good judge of character.
IMG_1520956892.690789.jpg
Great golfer, questionable character. Sponsored by TM.

Yeah that charity work and all

And thats ALL you see. Never anything questionable?
Sorry, i think thats a bit blinkered.

Cheating on his wife was out of order, no excuse... but I'm sure every person alive has made some questionable decisions, nobody's perfect.

As for the picture you have added, I have had Microdiscectomy surgery and the pain I was in before & afterwards i would not wish on my worse enemy. I couldn't walk for 2 months in agony for 6 months. I was clock watching to see when I could have my next tramadol and when the morphine patch could be changed. I can understand how he ended up not having a clue where he was or what he was doing... I wanted my right leg amputated it was that painful. Luckily the doctors didn't listen to me.

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#85 PorscheFan

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:09 AM

View PostMG 1977, on 12 March 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

12 months later he forgets that and signs for Titleist ������

Because, he said, they could live with an arrangement where he continued to give independent reviews and also game other manufacturer clubs if he wished.  Seems to have worked out that way.

Anyway, isn't this about the M4 review?  He clearly liked the sound.  I may demo for kicks.


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#86 MG 1977

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:33 AM

View PostPorscheFan, on 14 March 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

View PostMG 1977, on 12 March 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

12 months later he forgets that and signs for Titleist ������

Because, he said, they could live with an arrangement where he continued to give independent reviews and also game other manufacturer clubs if he wished.  Seems to have worked out that way.

Anyway, isn't this about the M4 review?  He clearly liked the sound.  I may demo for kicks.

Ok Titleist can say carry on reviewing othet stuff but he has a contract so by definition is no longer independent.

Doesn't mean I don't like his reviews just hypocritical if you listen to his words in the TM non test video he produced.

Twisty-mac-two-face!

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#87 Londoner

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:46 AM

View PostMG 1977, on 14 March 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostLondoner, on 14 March 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

View PostMG 1977, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

View Postterrell75, on 13 March 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

View PostMarkFromTheUK, on 12 March 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

TM seem to be a good judge of character.
IMG_1520956892.690789.jpg
Great golfer, questionable character. Sponsored by TM.

Yeah that charity work and all

And thats ALL you see. Never anything questionable?
Sorry, i think thats a bit blinkered.

Cheating on his wife was out of order, no excuse... but I'm sure every person alive has made some questionable decisions, nobody's perfect.

As for the picture you have added, I have had Microdiscectomy surgery and the pain I was in before & afterwards i would not wish on my worse enemy. I couldn't walk for 2 months in agony for 6 months. I was clock watching to see when I could have my next tramadol and when the morphine patch could be changed. I can understand how he ended up not having a clue where he was or what he was doing... I wanted my right leg amputated it was that painful. Luckily the doctors didn't listen to me.
I didnt add any photos.
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#88 Nixhex524

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:48 AM

View PostMG 1977, on 14 March 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

View PostPorscheFan, on 14 March 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

View PostMG 1977, on 12 March 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

12 months later he forgets that and signs for Titleist ������

Because, he said, they could live with an arrangement where he continued to give independent reviews and also game other manufacturer clubs if he wished.  Seems to have worked out that way.

Anyway, isn't this about the M4 review?  He clearly liked the sound.  I may demo for kicks.

Ok Titleist can say carry on reviewing othet stuff but he has a contract so by definition is no longer independent.

Doesn't mean I don't like his reviews just hypocritical if you listen to his words in the TM non test video he produced.

Twisty-mac-two-face!

If any of these guys were TRULY independent, wouldn't that mean that they would be footing the bill for test clubs on their own?  I mean, if an OEM is sending you stuff for free and another isn't, couldn't that have some sort of influence?  I would still consider MC independent until Titleist tells him they want him to be exclusive to them and I don't see that happening.  If Shiels is being paid by and receiving free gear from UA does that mean he is not independent?
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#89 mukster

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:55 AM

View PostLondoner, on 12 March 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

It sounded to me as if his lawyer, or Titleist, or both, told him to grow up and stop being like a stupid child.
He tried.
It won't last.

This is based on fact about as much as the TwistFace technology is :)
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#90 morgan1819

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:55 AM

Michael Newton is much better to watch than Shiels or Crossfield.

If I want to see a review on a club I can't hit locally, I go to (in order)

1. Fried Eggs
2. Michael Newton
3. browse wrx
4. browse other golf website
5. Crossfield
6. random youtube videos (including Shiels)


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