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SM7-Choosing the right grind/bounce combo


34 replies to this topic

#1 joliver233

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:59 AM

i love the look and feel of the new SM7s. I played the SM6 but couldn't really seem to spin them as much as I would like. I have a feeling I had the wrong grind. I play in Colorado and conditions can be soft at times but are usually fairly firm. I tke an average divot and use my 54* most often: full swing, pitches, around the green, and like to have versatility to open the face with my lob wedge and usually use that one more around the greens for tougher shots. How do I go about getting the right grind and bounce combo? Is it worth getting fit for wedges?

WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#2 Kale_m

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 01:05 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

i love the look and feel of the new SM7s. I played the SM6 but couldn't really seem to spin them as much as I would like. I have a feeling I had the wrong grind. I play in Colorado and conditions can be soft at times but are usually fairly firm. I tke an average divot and use my 54* most often: full swing, pitches, around the green, and like to have versatility to open the face with my lob wedge and usually use that one more around the greens for tougher shots. How do I go about getting the right grind and bounce combo? Is it worth getting fit for wedges?

You just stated you donít know which ones are best for you. Then asked if it is worth getting fit.

I think you answered your own question..

Get fit. It will save you money and frustration in the long run
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#3 George1174

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:34 PM

My swing got considerably shallower so my Cleveland Wedges with high bounce didn‘t do me so good anymore. They’re a few years old anyway so I went to a wedge fitting with Titleist. Got fitted into 50/08, 54/10, 58/08 each 2*flat and 1/4“ short to match my Mizzis.
Never thought of buying wedges with that low bounce.
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Cleveland Mashie 3H 20.5° - Miyazaki C.Kua 59
Mizuno MP-59 4-PW - KBS Tour R hs
Titleist SM 7 50/08 - 54/10 - 58/08 - DG S200
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#4 joliver233

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:09 PM

View PostKale_m, on 10 March 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

i love the look and feel of the new SM7s. I played the SM6 but couldn't really seem to spin them as much as I would like. I have a feeling I had the wrong grind. I play in Colorado and conditions can be soft at times but are usually fairly firm. I tke an average divot and use my 54* most often: full swing, pitches, around the green, and like to have versatility to open the face with my lob wedge and usually use that one more around the greens for tougher shots. How do I go about getting the right grind and bounce combo? Is it worth getting fit for wedges?

You just stated you don't know which ones are best for you. Then asked if it is worth getting fit.

I think you answered your own question..

Get fit. It will save you money and frustration in the long run

I guess what I was asking is, can you find the right combo on your own or go the cheap route and hit in the sim at GG or something, or do you need to go to a place like Club Champion or some master fitter to get it right? I've only ever been fit for irons before so I don't really know a lot about getting fit. I have just gotten by for the last several years basically fitting myself for woods etc and just buying wedges I like. But I'm getting to a point where I've plateaued at a 1-2 hcp and really need to improve my wedge game to get to scratch. I know a considerable amount less about wedge grinds and bounce and how they affect numbers on launch monitors than I do about driver shafts, spin rates, launch angles etc. Which may be why my wedge play has been so poor lol.
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#5 joliver233

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:11 PM

View PostGeorge1174, on 10 March 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

My swing got considerably shallower so my Cleveland Wedges with high bounce didn‘t do me so good anymore. They’re a few years old anyway so I went to a wedge fitting with Titleist. Got fitted into 50/08, 54/10, 58/08 each 2*flat and 1/4“ short to match my Mizzis.
Never thought of buying wedges with that low bounce.

I think I've gotten to that point.. I used to take pelts with my wedges but my divots have shallowed out considerably.

WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#6 Bye

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.
Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
Titleist 716CB 3-9 - X100
Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
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#7 joliver233

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#8 Bye

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:54 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?

Yes, with my local pro. He has me hit a variety of shots, pitches etc using a GC2 for some numbers. Trying different shots from different lies.

Before that I had bought and tried most of the grinds, but was not fully happy.

For me the difference between the grinds and bounce options is really noticeable. I find too much bounce really hurts my chipping and pitching.

What wedges do you have now, and what issues do you have with them?




Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
Titleist 716CB 3-9 - X100
Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
Titleist Pro V1

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#9 joliver233

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:31 PM

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?

Yes, with my local pro. He has me hit a variety of shots, pitches etc using a GC2 for some numbers. Trying different shots from different lies.

Before that I had bought and tried most of the grinds, but was not fully happy.

For me the difference between the grinds and bounce options is really noticeable. I find too much bounce really hurts my chipping and pitching.

What wedges do you have now, and what issues do you have with them?

I have the cleveland RTX (newest version). My issues are with full shots--inconsistent distances--and not getting enough bite on pitches and chips. Sort of the same issue I had with the SM6--just not getting the ball to do what I want/expect. I liked the SM6 as far as feel and distance control, but couldn't ever get full control of trajectory and spin on shots 100 yards and in (usually half-3/4 shots and pitches).
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#10 Bye

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 05:35 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?

Yes, with my local pro. He has me hit a variety of shots, pitches etc using a GC2 for some numbers. Trying different shots from different lies.

Before that I had bought and tried most of the grinds, but was not fully happy.

For me the difference between the grinds and bounce options is really noticeable. I find too much bounce really hurts my chipping and pitching.

What wedges do you have now, and what issues do you have with them?

I have the cleveland RTX (newest version). My issues are with full shots--inconsistent distances--and not getting enough bite on pitches and chips. Sort of the same issue I had with the SM6--just not getting the ball to do what I want/expect. I liked the SM6 as far as feel and distance control, but couldn't ever get full control of trajectory and spin on shots 100 yards and in (usually half-3/4 shots and pitches).

Which grinds did you have on the SM6’s.

Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
Titleist 716CB 3-9 - X100
Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
Titleist Pro V1

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#11 danielryanw

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 06:31 PM

I have the SM6s and I do the same with my wedges: 54* is my go-to from full swing to 3/4, 1/2, pitch and chips. My 58* is finesse, open it up, etc.
I use the S-Grind in my 54* and it performs perfectly for those shots.
I use the M-grind in my 58* and love how it plays opened-up. I did just order a 58* in the D-grind of the SM7 to try. I like the added bounce for bunkers. I wanna see how itíll play opened up on tight lies bc the M has been excellent.
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#12 spetzle

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:17 PM

Went 52f 56m 60 s    Perfect combo

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#13 DCOTTIN

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:17 PM

View Postdanielryanw, on 10 March 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

I have the SM6s and I do the same with my wedges: 54* is my go-to from full swing to 3/4, 1/2, pitch and chips. My 58* is finesse, open it up, etc.
I use the S-Grind in my 54* and it performs perfectly for those shots.
I use the M-grind in my 58* and love how it plays opened-up. I did just order a 58* in the D-grind of the SM7 to try. I like the added bounce for bunkers. I wanna see how it’ll play opened up on tight lies bc the M has been excellent.

I’m in your boat. I just got the 58* D grind and love it!  Wanted the extra bounce for bunkers. I have no problem on tight lies with the D. Best grind I’ve played.

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#14 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:37 AM

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

View PostKale_m, on 10 March 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

i love the look and feel of the new SM7s. I played the SM6 but couldn't really seem to spin them as much as I would like. I have a feeling I had the wrong grind. I play in Colorado and conditions can be soft at times but are usually fairly firm. I tke an average divot and use my 54* most often: full swing, pitches, around the green, and like to have versatility to open the face with my lob wedge and usually use that one more around the greens for tougher shots. How do I go about getting the right grind and bounce combo? Is it worth getting fit for wedges?

You just stated you don't know which ones are best for you. Then asked if it is worth getting fit.

I think you answered your own question..

Get fit. It will save you money and frustration in the long run

I guess what I was asking is, can you find the right combo on your own or go the cheap route and hit in the sim at GG or something, or do you need to go to a place like Club Champion or some master fitter to get it right? I've only ever been fit for irons before so I don't really know a lot about getting fit. I have just gotten by for the last several years basically fitting myself for woods etc and just buying wedges I like. But I'm getting to a point where I've plateaued at a 1-2 hcp and really need to improve my wedge game to get to scratch. I know a considerable amount less about wedge grinds and bounce and how they affect numbers on launch monitors than I do about driver shafts, spin rates, launch angles etc. Which may be why my wedge play has been so poor lol.

Grind and bounce only matter if you hit the ground before the ball.  Otherwise the ball is already gone before either one can interact with the ground.  So, basically, we care about grind and bounce in two scenarios: first, when you hit the ground first on purpose like a bunker shot and second, when you miss slightly and catch it a bit heavy or a bit thin.  The grind and bounce is really important in terms of how your wedge interacts with the ground when you hit the ground before the ball, and interacts specifically with your attack angle.  If you come in steep the danger is that your wedge will dig, causing a chilli dip.  Therefore, steep swingers want wedges that slide when they hit the ground, so that you don't catch before the ball can get away - wide sole K grind is the champ, built to slide.  Shallow swingers are in danger of blading the ball by missing behind it, so they want a wedge that has a leading edge really flush with the ground so there is nothing there to blade with.  the L is the most extreme shallow grind, leaving almost zero metal for you to thin the ball with.

typically steep players want to slide and shallow players want a tight leading edge (tight leading edges dig, which means steep players will chilli dip them).  On a well-struck pitch shot, all grinds perform exactly the same.  On a pitch struck slightly heavy with a steep attack angle, an L grind will lay sod over the ball, while a K will slide under it and probably hit a decent shot. On a pitch struck slightly heavy with a shallow attack angle an L will likely hit a spinner that goes pretty close to the target slightly thin, while a K will hit a bottom-of-the-club-rocket into the next county.

to figure out if you are steep or shallow, go to a practice green with a hill nearby.  hit 10 off the downslope left hand only and 10 off the upslope right hand only.  Most players will be pretty comfortable with one and unable to draw the club back with the other.  if you are comfortable left hand only, you're shallow - the slope isn't getting in your way.  Look at L, M, low bounce grinds - anything that puts the leading edge down flush with the ground.  if you are comfortable right hand only, you're steep - the slope isn't getting in your way.  look at K, S, F and wide sole grinds so you can slide under the ball rather than chilli dip and dig.

At the end of the day, there is no substitute for a qualified fitter and there is also no substitute for feel.  All of these are general rules, with the K at one extreme end (for steep) and the L at the other extreme end (for shallow).  There are plenty of great short game players who are steep who use an L somehow - the closer you get to the hole the more room there is for improvisation.  But there are some general guidelines.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 11 March 2018 - 12:40 AM.

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#15 mxskier

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:50 AM

If you want a wedge fit for free when you buy, go to Lenny's down off of I-25/225. They'll fit you for wedges there. Its not on the turf, but they will use strike tape not he sole and have you swing all sorts of shots and based on strike pattern with the wedge on a ridged mat, as well as on GC2 with spin/launch/distance, they'll help you find the right combo. You can call them, but I'd probably bring a P and maybe 9 also to help with loft gapping.

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#16 CaseyDan

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:52 AM

I always get excited when I see a pinestreetgolf post. Very informative. Thank you.
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#17 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:24 AM

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 05:35 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 10 March 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

The Vokey website has a wedge selection tool on it if you want to go the cheap route. But get fit for them if you can, with a proper fitter, it will be worth it.

Have you been fit for wedges? If so, how drastic as the difference before and after?

Yes, with my local pro. He has me hit a variety of shots, pitches etc using a GC2 for some numbers. Trying different shots from different lies.

Before that I had bought and tried most of the grinds, but was not fully happy.

For me the difference between the grinds and bounce options is really noticeable. I find too much bounce really hurts my chipping and pitching.

What wedges do you have now, and what issues do you have with them?

I have the cleveland RTX (newest version). My issues are with full shots--inconsistent distances--and not getting enough bite on pitches and chips. Sort of the same issue I had with the SM6--just not getting the ball to do what I want/expect. I liked the SM6 as far as feel and distance control, but couldn't ever get full control of trajectory and spin on shots 100 yards and in (usually half-3/4 shots and pitches).

Which grinds did you have on the SM6’s.

54*- S; 58-M
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

17

#18 Bye

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:53 AM

So the mid bounce options.

Pinestreet has summarised very well in his post and makes some good point that you could try.

My best guess (only a guess) is that a bit more bounce or a fuller grind may help. It may be that due to the lower bounce/grinds you are contacting the ball to high on the face of the club.

Itís seriously worth getting fit for these. Itís something you really only need to do once. The right bounce can transform someoneís short game.

Edited by Bye, 11 March 2018 - 03:55 AM.

Taylormade 2017 M1 10.5 - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X - 44.5 inches
Callaway Rogue 3 Wood - Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
Titleist 716CB 3-9 - X100
Vokey 46.08, 50.08 - X100
Vokey 56S, 60M - S300
Scotty Cameron Select Fastback
Titleist Pro V1

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#19 danielryanw

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?
M3 8.5*  |  Synergy Black Proto 70tx
M2 T3 13* DF  |  Tensei Pro Blue 80tx
P790 2 UDI 17*  |  Tensei Pro White Hy 90tx
'17 M1 20* hybrid  |  UST VTS Black 100hx
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19

#20 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Edited by joliver233, 11 March 2018 - 01:26 PM.

WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

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#21 danielryanw

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:33 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Which flexes/weights
M3 8.5*  |  Synergy Black Proto 70tx
M2 T3 13* DF  |  Tensei Pro Blue 80tx
P790 2 UDI 17*  |  Tensei Pro White Hy 90tx
'17 M1 20* hybrid  |  UST VTS Black 100hx
P790 5-PW  |  PX 6.5
SM7  50*F  54*S  58*D  |  S400 TI Onyx
Spider Tour Black

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#22 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:45 PM

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Which flexes/weights

C-Taper is S+, ~120g
Hi-rev: S, 125g
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

22

#23 Derek666

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:02 PM

Well worth getting fit for wedges as then you can get loft/lie/bounce/grind/shaft all dialled in perfectly, i wouldn't buy new wedges without getting fit.

Joliver233: i've also tried those special wedge shafts and spin it less in everything but full shots where they seem to be the same as a normal shaft :) I just soft step my iron shaft 1x so its a bit softer for those 3/4, half, quarter type shots

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#24 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:28 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Which flexes/weights

C-Taper is S+, ~120g
Hi-rev: S, 125g

The shafts you play has very little (read: almost nothing) to do with how much you spin your wedges.  Generally there are three components that make up 95% of how much your wedges will spin.  

First, clean and wide grooves.  Self-explanatory, but some wedges are better than others, and a clean wedge is better than all dirty wedges.  

Second, the ball.  A uerethane ball will destroy a surlyn ball in spin, and not all uerethane balls are created equal (a V1 will feel like a top compared to a TP5x).

Finally, and most obviously, your swing, where we measure "spin rate" or the amount your swing is going impact backspin onto the ball with a wedge.  The most important ingredient to spin rate is "spin loft", which is subtracting the attack angle from the dynamic loft (yes, i realize this is an approximation, but its pretty darn close)*.  Spin loft is generally the angle between how the club moves (the path and attack angle, but we're factoring out path for greenside wedges, see below) and the direction the face is pointing (both face angle and dynamic loft - again, greenside, the face will generally be square - we usually don't chip 45* left of our target line).  So, greenside, its generally simply attack angle minus dynamic loft.  Visually:

Max-Spin-Loft.jpg

So most of it is in technique.  If you hit down on the ball steeply in terms of attack angle but your face comes in without much dynamic loft, the ball will roll up the face "staying on it" for a long time, and producing quite a bit of spin.  This is why most of the "spin-and-stop" shots are low in trajectory - they have low dynamic loft at impact.  In practice, its difficult to do this without skill - the temptation greenside is to let the left side rise and the right side drop, "scooping" the shot a bit, and nothing could be worse for spin (you have high dynamic loft as dropping your right side adds loft to the clubhead, and low attack angle - exactly the opposite of how you should spin the ball).

A good swing thought to really spin the ball is to feel like your left shoulder goes "left and low" and your right shoulder actually rises as you hit the ball.  This will produce a delofted club (low dynamic loft) and a steep attack angle, creating high spin loft because the angle between the two will be large, as in the picture.

I'm not very familiar with how a shaft could add more spin to a shot, beyond just making them softer to add dynamic loft.  The general theory is that if you make a shaft play significantly softer it will increase dynamic loft and therefore spin.  I'm not going to say its a con, but most "high spin" wedge shafts are just senior/regular flex iron shafts with extra weight.

Mr. Wishon put out an article on these so-called "Wedge shafts" a while back, I'm sure google can dig it up.

*This angle is actually measured using two 3D vectors including club path but since in shots around the green club path is generally very small and the difference between club path and face angle is much MUCH smaller than attack angle-dynamic loft, spin loft is generally calc'd independent of club path for wedges.  That said, if you have some insane cut swing you'd have to allow for it.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 11 March 2018 - 07:30 PM.

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#25 danielryanw

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:15 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 11 March 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now Iím more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Which flexes/weights

C-Taper is S+, ~120g
Hi-rev: S, 125g

The shafts you play has very little (read: almost nothing) to do with how much you spin your wedges.  Generally there are three components that make up 95% of how much your wedges will spin.  

First, clean and wide grooves.  Self-explanatory, but some wedges are better than others, and a clean wedge is better than all dirty wedges.  

Second, the ball.  A uerethane ball will destroy a surlyn ball in spin, and not all uerethane balls are created equal (a V1 will feel like a top compared to a TP5x).

Finally, and most obviously, your swing, where we measure "spin rate" or the amount your swing is going impact backspin onto the ball with a wedge.  The most important ingredient to spin rate is "spin loft", which is subtracting the attack angle from the dynamic loft (yes, i realize this is an approximation, but its pretty darn close)*.  Spin loft is generally the angle between how the club moves (the path and attack angle, but we're factoring out path for greenside wedges, see below) and the direction the face is pointing (both face angle and dynamic loft - again, greenside, the face will generally be square - we usually don't chip 45* left of our target line).  So, greenside, its generally simply attack angle minus dynamic loft.  Visually:

Max-Spin-Loft.jpg

So most of it is in technique.  If you hit down on the ball steeply in terms of attack angle but your face comes in without much dynamic loft, the ball will roll up the face "staying on it" for a long time, and producing quite a bit of spin.  This is why most of the "spin-and-stop" shots are low in trajectory - they have low dynamic loft at impact.  In practice, its difficult to do this without skill - the temptation greenside is to let the left side rise and the right side drop, "scooping" the shot a bit, and nothing could be worse for spin (you have high dynamic loft as dropping your right side adds loft to the clubhead, and low attack angle - exactly the opposite of how you should spin the ball).

A good swing thought to really spin the ball is to feel like your left shoulder goes "left and low" and your right shoulder actually rises as you hit the ball.  This will produce a delofted club (low dynamic loft) and a steep attack angle, creating high spin loft because the angle between the two will be large, as in the picture.

I'm not very familiar with how a shaft could add more spin to a shot, beyond just making them softer to add dynamic loft.  The general theory is that if you make a shaft play significantly softer it will increase dynamic loft and therefore spin.  I'm not going to say its a con, but most "high spin" wedge shafts are just senior/regular flex iron shafts with extra weight.

Mr. Wishon put out an article on these so-called "Wedge shafts" a while back, I'm sure google can dig it up.

*This angle is actually measured using two 3D vectors including club path but since in shots around the green club path is generally very small and the difference between club path and face angle is much MUCH smaller than attack angle-dynamic loft, spin loft is generally calc'd independent of club path for wedges.  That said, if you have some insane cut swing you'd have to allow for it.

Agree.
I was inquiring about the shafts in regards to the weighting since the OP said he was having distance issues as well.
It may not hurt to try an 8iron C-taper S+ in your 54*. While what pinestreet said about the direct correlation of shafts and the spin added by them is true, I still believe, to some degree, the profile of the shaft can be important to some if youíre used to a certain ďfeelĒ and weighting and if youíre subconsciously changing something during the swing to compensate for a different ďfeelĒ. Iíd try the S+ 8i and an S400.

Also, try standing a little closer to the ball. Youíll be more upright and your hands/handle/shaft will be more upright as well. This will help deliver the club into the ball at a steeper angle of attack.

Without turning this into a ball thread, Iíd suggest giving the Snell MTB ball a look. Iíve found that to be one of the ďgrabbiestĒ short game balls out.

M3 8.5*  |  Synergy Black Proto 70tx
M2 T3 13* DF  |  Tensei Pro Blue 80tx
P790 2 UDI 17*  |  Tensei Pro White Hy 90tx
'17 M1 20* hybrid  |  UST VTS Black 100hx
P790 5-PW  |  PX 6.5
SM7  50*F  54*S  58*D  |  S400 TI Onyx
Spider Tour Black

25

#26 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:18 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 11 March 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Now I’m more curious as to which shafts you play in your irons and which you play in your wedges?

irons are c-taper
Wedges Hi-rev 2.0

The funny thing is my spin numbers with my irons are pretty spot on but can't seem to spin it with the hi-revs which are supposed to help. Often times I'll mess around with wedges with stock shafts and spin them better.

Which flexes/weights

C-Taper is S+, ~120g
Hi-rev: S, 125g

The shafts you play has very little (read: almost nothing) to do with how much you spin your wedges.  Generally there are three components that make up 95% of how much your wedges will spin.  

First, clean and wide grooves.  Self-explanatory, but some wedges are better than others, and a clean wedge is better than all dirty wedges.  

Second, the ball.  A uerethane ball will destroy a surlyn ball in spin, and not all uerethane balls are created equal (a V1 will feel like a top compared to a TP5x).

Finally, and most obviously, your swing, where we measure "spin rate" or the amount your swing is going impact backspin onto the ball with a wedge.  The most important ingredient to spin rate is "spin loft", which is subtracting the attack angle from the dynamic loft (yes, i realize this is an approximation, but its pretty darn close)*.  Spin loft is generally the angle between how the club moves (the path and attack angle, but we're factoring out path for greenside wedges, see below) and the direction the face is pointing (both face angle and dynamic loft - again, greenside, the face will generally be square - we usually don't chip 45* left of our target line).  So, greenside, its generally simply attack angle minus dynamic loft.  Visually:

Max-Spin-Loft.jpg

So most of it is in technique.  If you hit down on the ball steeply in terms of attack angle but your face comes in without much dynamic loft, the ball will roll up the face "staying on it" for a long time, and producing quite a bit of spin.  This is why most of the "spin-and-stop" shots are low in trajectory - they have low dynamic loft at impact.  In practice, its difficult to do this without skill - the temptation greenside is to let the left side rise and the right side drop, "scooping" the shot a bit, and nothing could be worse for spin (you have high dynamic loft as dropping your right side adds loft to the clubhead, and low attack angle - exactly the opposite of how you should spin the ball).

A good swing thought to really spin the ball is to feel like your left shoulder goes "left and low" and your right shoulder actually rises as you hit the ball.  This will produce a delofted club (low dynamic loft) and a steep attack angle, creating high spin loft because the angle between the two will be large, as in the picture.

I'm not very familiar with how a shaft could add more spin to a shot, beyond just making them softer to add dynamic loft.  The general theory is that if you make a shaft play significantly softer it will increase dynamic loft and therefore spin.  I'm not going to say its a con, but most "high spin" wedge shafts are just senior/regular flex iron shafts with extra weight.

Mr. Wishon put out an article on these so-called "Wedge shafts" a while back, I'm sure google can dig it up.

*This angle is actually measured using two 3D vectors including club path but since in shots around the green club path is generally very small and the difference between club path and face angle is much MUCH smaller than attack angle-dynamic loft, spin loft is generally calc'd independent of club path for wedges.  That said, if you have some insane cut swing you'd have to allow for it.

This is great stuff. I'm glad I started this and got more than just what the first responder wrote. Thanks for your time and insightful comments.
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

26

#27 danielryanw

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:23 PM

Lastly, I play all my wedges to the same length as my PW. Thatís just me personally. Its nothing technical, just a comfort thing. Iím tall and it feels better. I can always choke down.
But something to consider.
M3 8.5*  |  Synergy Black Proto 70tx
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P790 2 UDI 17*  |  Tensei Pro White Hy 90tx
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#28 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:24 PM

I've been playing around with the idea of changing my ball as well as the shafts. I feel the hi-revs have been detrimental if anything, and like I said, I usually get better results with a stock shaft. My gap wedge with the S+ C-taper is great, and I've had the most success in the past with DG shafts in my wedges. However, I'm definitely going to get fit soon, as this is way more complicated than I originally thought. But, at least now I feel like I know enough about wedges etc. to know what to look for.

I also think the point about technique is a good one. It's so easy to get wrapped up in equipment or trying to adjust to equipment and lose sight of good technique or get lazy with it.
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

28

#29 joliver233

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:27 PM

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

Lastly, I play all my wedges to the same length as my PW. That's just me personally. Its nothing technical, just a comfort thing. I'm tall and it feels better. I can always choke down.
But something to consider.

That's a good idea. I'm close to 6'4" and my irons I was fit for are all +.5" in length. My wedges are all +.5" but not PW length. I may have to try it.
WITB:

D: 9.5* 2016 M2 w/Aldila Rogue Silver 70X
3W: 14.5* Cobra F8+ w/Even Flow Blue X
Irons: 716 AP2 3-PW w/KBS C-Taper S+
Wedges: 50* SM6; 54*, 58* SM7 w/DG s400
Putter: TM Ardmore 3 Black Copper/ TM Spider Tour Black
Ball: Srixon Z-Star XV

29

#30 danielryanw

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 09:40 PM

View Postjoliver233, on 11 March 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

View Postdanielryanw, on 11 March 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

Lastly, I play all my wedges to the same length as my PW. That's just me personally. Its nothing technical, just a comfort thing. I'm tall and it feels better. I can always choke down.
But something to consider.

That's a good idea. I'm close to 6'4" and my irons I was fit for are all +.5" in length. My wedges are all +.5" but not PW length. I may have to try it.

Iím 6í4Ē as well. Lifelong baseball player convert.
I had a tendency to sway a little towards the target when taking 1/2 to full swings which caused inconsistent strikes and ultimately inconsistent distances. Iíve really worked on keeping my hands in front of my sternum and rotating around my left leg. I use a dodgeball between the arms when practicing. Itís helped tremendously.

M3 8.5*  |  Synergy Black Proto 70tx
M2 T3 13* DF  |  Tensei Pro Blue 80tx
P790 2 UDI 17*  |  Tensei Pro White Hy 90tx
'17 M1 20* hybrid  |  UST VTS Black 100hx
P790 5-PW  |  PX 6.5
SM7  50*F  54*S  58*D  |  S400 TI Onyx
Spider Tour Black

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