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Is Toe Hang Critically Important Or Is It More Of A Marketing Ploy


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#31 ZBUCK

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:08 AM

 Z1ggy16, on 12 March 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

Phil seems to have a fairly straight stroke but is using a #9 with a flow neck which has to be producing a ton of toe hang. I think it does matter but I wouldn't put it in the top 3 in terms of importance. I'm not a putting or golf expert, but I'd much rather have the correct loft, lie and head shape (with proper alignment) than worrying about if the 30* of hang or if I should go with 15 or 0*.

I of course would say you should match the two up but I'm sure there's plenty of guys out there who have decent arc who use FB and guys with not much arc who have lots of toe hang.

Bingo! Loft, lie, and length are the most important parts of performance in a putter. The rest is all marketing.

I would say above all else though, you have to love looking at it or else it's never going to work for you.

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#32 bargolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:22 PM

5 minutes on a PuttLab and an understanding of the graph that measures rate of rotation and you will know exactly how much of impact it has.

If you know your stroke and what it requires  then the measurement of face balance is as valuable a parameter as any mentioned.

If you need to block your release point you will trend toward a preference of face up or minimal drop. If you need to release the toe to square the face some toe hang will help. all the manufacturers understand the value of matching toe hang. The problem is they don't know your needs when they build a putter. Finding the correct one is on you.

If the measurement of face balance doesn't matter, then if I gave you putters the same length, lie, swing weight, and overall weight but different degrees of face balance you wouldn't have a preference?

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#33 bargolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:33 PM

 Manz60, on 07 March 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

here is a very good article
https://www.golfdige...ke-frank-thomas

its not straight back, straight through vs arc, but rather " on plane".  If the stroke is on plane , you can use  a face balance or toe hang, the point is to keep the face square to the path, into  the impact zone.

hope this helps
M60

The article explains stroke plane very clearly, It does not make a claim of what putter you should use or what would work.

If you move the putter on a tilted plane, the flatter the plane, the faster the toe has to move to maintain a square relationship to the plane. Depending on where the shaft axis crosses the face of the putter will influence this relationship of toe to heel speed. The farther the toe is from the shaft the easier it is to move the toe faster. Is the influence huge? No. But neither is your room for error on a 15 foot putt.

Edited by bargolf, 13 March 2018 - 02:40 PM.


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#34 hahanice

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:39 PM

My results on a Sam put lab (putting from 7 feet on carpet without speed as a factor) told me one thing, which on real greens turned out not to be true.

And I have identical putters with different amounts of toe hang:
Nike b2-01
Nike b2-05

There is literally no difference in my putting averages between the 2.

I use the b2-05 as my gamer because I think the long neck is sexy, and I figure matching my stroke to the hang shouldn't hurt.

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#35 bargolf

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 06:49 AM

 hahanice, on 13 March 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:

My results on a Sam put lab (putting from 7 feet on carpet without speed as a factor) told me one thing, which on real greens turned out not to be true.

And I have identical putters with different amounts of toe hang:
Nike b2-01
Nike b2-05

There is literally no difference in my putting averages between the 2.

I use the b2-05 as my gamer because I think the long neck is sexy, and I figure matching my stroke to the hang shouldn't hurt.

What was your rate of rotation at impact?


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#36 jslane57

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:48 AM

Those of you who have done the Sam lab: Did you try the same putter with different size grips? How much difference did an oversize grip make? Did a SuperStroke grip afford for less toe hang? From my personal experience grip size matters. For me if I'm going with an oversize grip, less toe hang is better. And if i'm using a small grip (which I much prefer) an Anser style putter is the way to go...
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#37 Z1ggy16

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 11:47 AM

 bargolf, on 13 March 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

 Manz60, on 07 March 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

here is a very good article
https://www.golfdige...ke-frank-thomas

its not straight back, straight through vs arc, but rather " on plane".  If the stroke is on plane , you can use  a face balance or toe hang, the point is to keep the face square to the path, into  the impact zone.

hope this helps
M60

The article explains stroke plane very clearly, It does not make a claim of what putter you should use or what would work.

If you move the putter on a tilted plane, the flatter the plane, the faster the toe has to move to maintain a square relationship to the plane. Depending on where the shaft axis crosses the face of the putter will influence this relationship of toe to heel speed. The farther the toe is from the shaft the easier it is to move the toe faster. Is the influence huge? No. But neither is your room for error on a 15 foot putt.
None of it matters if you can't align the ball at the hole properly though.

Not to say toe hang isn't a factor when it comes to picking the putter, but you could have the most perfectly balanced putter for your stroke, but if you are always aiming 4 inches left of target, does it even matter?

Again, I am not a golf guru here but I always felt like distance control, specifically pace/speed was more important than line anyway. What does toe hang really have to do with getting pace correct unless the lack of or abundance of toe hang is causing bad miss-hits? If it's really only facing face closure rate, you theoretically could still be striking center face, just with too open or too closed of a face angle. So in my mind... you'd miss your line but pace could still be spot on, leaving you just inches or a foot past the hole. Much better than having a perfect strike but blowing it by or leaving it well short.

Just my thought process, not saying it's correct. I totally agree with the mathematics of it (more flat the plane, more face closure rate needed) but golf often times goes against the mathematics. To me.. Phil seems to be a fairly upright putter, with a fairly SBST stroke, but uses a putter with probably at least 60* hang.

To me it would almost seem that a SBST type of stroke could use whatever putter he wants if he isn't opening up the face too much during the BS. But a fairly flat plane heavy arc player would likely need toe hang to square the face back up. However, if that player is always aiming inside of target line...that toe hang could hurt him, could it not?
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#38 plutch

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:47 PM

I have been researching putters and found this out recently.  Started to hit a few of the Odyssey O-Works mallets and found that I did NOT want toe hang.

I am coming from a Scotty Newport 2 and I was pulling my short putts, very frustrating.

I hit their Jailbird Mini the other day, I felt the difference immediately when I had the face-balanced version in my hand.  Just felt that the square feeling that it gave me probably fits my putting stroke more.

I noticed that I was never comfortable opening the face of the putter which is what the toe-hang is great for.

Picked up the Jailbird Mini, made three birdied my first round with 3 lip outs, I feel more confident with it already.

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#39 A.Princey

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:28 PM

This is probably out of left field, but I think anyone can putt well with anything given a little time and practice with said putter. For me, grip alignment and putter loft/lie are paramount for producing comfort and good feel. I forward press and have a good amount of loft on my putters 7-8* so that when I'm striking the ball, it's in the center of the putter face. The press also causes a natural turn in my neutral grip, closing the face, so I always install my grips about 5* open now.

I fought so many different setup styles and tried making each putter work, but once I tailored them to fit my stroke, they all seem to work now. Once your putts are rolling straight and it feels like butter when you strike the center, you know you're onto something. For so long, I thought I was making good, consistent strokes, but the clanky feel had me thinking otherwise. Once you get that pure feel, combined with good roll, the doubt leaves your mind. My ball does have a small hop/skip before getting to a true roll, but the compromise here is feel, and a well struck putt that feels good off the face is more inspiring than a clanker that doesn't skid at all...

Before picking a particular toe-hang style, try putting with various grip orientations, from closed to slightly open, it might change your point of view on the subject of toe hang. A good starting point is to grab a putter, grip it naturally and keep your eyes off the putter and grip while your get into putting posture. Close your eyes, sole the putter and make a few small strokes, sole the putter again at normal feeling address position and open your eyes to see the face angle. If it isn't perpendicular to your stance and intended path, you might consider changing the grip to accommodate your NATURAL grip position. I thought it was dumb too until I tried it, but my putting setup is much more effortless now.

Edited by A.Princey, 14 March 2018 - 09:50 PM.

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#40 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:41 PM

I don’t think toe hang is much of a marketing gimmick because beyond a few websites like this no one knows what it is or gives a damn about it.

People constantly forget that all of us weirdos on this site are not the “normal” club buying public.

Average joe picks up a few putters in the store they like the look of and putt a few balls with them.  Then they pick one.  Very scientific.

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#41 naws-golfer

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 11:59 AM

Its all about face rotation, I have a medium rotation, so any putter works fine for me. but with certain putters, i feel like i need to slow down or speed up a release.

I believe alignment aids and lie generally have more input on pushes and pulls.

Information was from a samm lab fitting a few years ago.
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#42 Golfcat

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 06:37 AM

What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

I remember a couple of years ago, messing with the Ping Putter fitting cradle with an eye on shaft rotation.

I would putt with a face balanced putter, and would have minimal shaft rotation, but when I putted with a heel shafted, big rotation.  And I felt I was putting the same stroke on the ball.  Newport putter was in between.

My point...maybe the putter dictates the stroke vs matching up the putter with your natural stroke.

Edited by Golfcat, 16 March 2018 - 08:40 AM.

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