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Downswing Question


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#1 cyr67

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:26 AM

Questions, actually. So the lower body starts the downswing..."from the ground up" Got it. But then what is next in the sequence? Is it the swinging of the arms down and across--diagonally--followed by the uncoiling of the shoulders/torso? Or do the arms/hands stay passive at first and follow the turning/uncoiling of the shoulders? Or is it a blending of the two aforementioned moves?

Edited by cyr67, 13 February 2018 - 08:27 AM.


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#2 iteachgolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:51 AM

Are you asking what you need to fee to have an ideal sequence or simply what the ideal sequence is?   Those two things aren’t the same for an overwhelming majority of people.

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#3 cyr67

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:09 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 13 February 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Are you asking what you need to fee to have an ideal sequence or simply what the ideal sequence is?   Those two things aren't the same for an overwhelming majority of people.

I'm not sure. I *think* that I may have too much arm action early in the downswing which outpaces my turn/uncoiling.  I just feel that I am out of sync and "armsy', but I'm not certain.  Perhaps I need to feel that the uncoiling happens first before the arms, but I'm not sure if that is the proper sequence.

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#4 iteachgolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:11 AM

View Postcyr67, on 13 February 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 13 February 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Are you asking what you need to fee to have an ideal sequence or simply what the ideal sequence is?   Those two things aren't the same for an overwhelming majority of people.

I'm not sure. I *think* that I may have too much arm action early in the downswing which outpaces my turn/uncoiling.  I just feel that I am out of sync and "armsy', but I'm not certain.  Perhaps I need to feel that the uncoiling happens first before the arms, but I'm not sure if that is the proper sequence.

Nobody could possibly tell you what you’re doing or what you need to be doing without seeing your swing.

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#5 cyr67

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:27 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 13 February 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

View Postcyr67, on 13 February 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 13 February 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Are you asking what you need to fee to have an ideal sequence or simply what the ideal sequence is?   Those two things aren't the same for an overwhelming majority of people.

I'm not sure. I *think* that I may have too much arm action early in the downswing which outpaces my turn/uncoiling.  I just feel that I am out of sync and "armsy', but I'm not certain.  Perhaps I need to feel that the uncoiling happens first before the arms, but I'm not sure if that is the proper sequence.

Nobody could possibly tell you what you're doing or what you need to be doing without seeing your swing.

I get that, thanks. But what is the correct sequence, though?


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#6 iteachgolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:33 AM

Hips, shoulders, arms, club.   But you won’t know what you’re doing without 3D or someone who knows what there looking at on video.  You can even have them working in the right order but have the timing be wrong.  

Knowing the correct order is meaningless without know what you’re doing and when you’re doing it.

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#7 spoonek9

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:38 AM


I hate people!

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#8 tgreenwood11

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:41 AM

My new feel move is to try to come over the top as hard as I can without twisting the shaft.  Ball goes straight. Weird

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#9 cyr67

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:53 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 13 February 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

Hips, shoulders, arms, club.   But you won't know what you're doing without 3D or someone who knows what there looking at on video.  You can even have them working in the right order but have the timing be wrong.  

Knowing the correct order is meaningless without know what you're doing and when you're doing it.

Thanks.

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#10 spoonek9

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:55 AM


I hate people!

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#11 Quick Bucket

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:05 PM

cyr67 when you say "from the ground up" what does that mean to you?   Getting just that one piece alone correct in your mind conceptually and tied to body performance may go a long way in answering your questions about  sequence.

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#12 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:15 PM

Here is the issue with the “ground up” sequencing and the proper order Dan listed.

The separation is measured in hundredths or even thousandths of a second, so consciously trying to sequence them in an order is Quixotic.  Intentionally leading with the lower body and getting the shoulders and arms to trail almost always ends in disaster as the interval becomes too great.  

I have yet to see someone actually lead with the arms.

Sequencing happens naturally when you swing an axe, throw a frisbee, etc.  We throw off the sequencing by moving body parts the wrong way and/or in the wrong direction, versus the wrong order.



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#13 juststeve

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 10:18 AM

Monte's comment above " I have yet to see someone actually lead with the arms" really resonates with me.

I was taught to initiate the forward swing with both arms swinging the club toward the target with my body merely responding.   That has been my intention on every swing for nearly 50 years. Still is.   If anyone should actually lead with the arms it would be me, but:

A number of years ago I joined a new club where a renowned teacher had a learning center.  He filmed me swinging and we looked at it together.  I was astounded by what I saw.  Although I intended to initiate the forward swing with my arms it was clear to the eye that my lower body moved left before the club began to move.  It had always been my intention to maintain an equal weight distribution, right and left until impact, yet the film showed that my weight was mostly on my left foot when I hit the ball.  My intention was to return the club to its address position at impact yet the film showed that the handle of the club was well left of its address position and the shaft was leaning forward, not straight up and down.

Next time I saw Manny I told him what I saw and asked what he thought.  He kind of laughed at me and told me I had always started with my legs, hit off my left foot and had forward shaft lean.  Those thing he said were reactions to the intent to swing the whole club forward, in the direction of the target, through the address position, while maintaining and equal weight distribution.  He said he didn't teach those details because it is always a bad idea  to do deliberately that which is automatic if you just swing the club.  He taught me to swing the club and the rest of that stuff came along for free.  Thanks Manny.

Steve.

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#14 NikeGolferTX

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:26 AM

The term "ground up" is a really stupid term to use IMO.

It should be called force-reaction.

You just push into the ground with one part of the body to allow another part of the body to move faster.

Like the concept of a whip: when you pull, the end of the whip snaps through fast.

Every rotational sport does this:
Football kickers plant their lead foot and lean back to get the leg to move through.
Posted Image

In golf the center of the torso works ahead of the center of the pelvis early in the downswing...then once you apply pressure to your lead leg/heel, the pelvis kicks forward.
(fyi this is why setting a reverse K in the golf swing is counter-intuitive).


It's an athletic move. You don't need to be conscious of it unless you're severely unathletic.


But there's no perfect answer for your question.
There's only match-ups in the golf swing. It's why numerous top players all look different.

To have a good golf swing you need to stretch muscles a certain way so they fire in the opposite manner and focus on intent.

You can't try to get into a certain position, you have to do something prior that makes you get there.

Example: You can look at someones right shoulder/arm at the top of the backswing. If your arm is internal (you've stretched those muscles internal)...athletic people usually release the stretched muscle naturally and fire it on the opposite direction making it go external...which makes the shaft shallow. But some people may not do this naturally so its really dependent on you as a person.

Edited by NikeGolferTX, 14 February 2018 - 11:36 AM.


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#15 BenHoganSlam1953

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:50 AM

If I wanted to take a lot of speed off of my swing I could deliberately fire from the ground up (at least that is the effect on me), but since I am aiming for the opposite effect I just swing my arms (while in balance and not swaying), keeping them as relaxed (muscle wise) as possible to the top of my swing, without straining or collapsing my arms - and swing that club smoothly, but aggressively, on the way down and through the ball - just like there was a whip in my hands.

I am not thinking of all of those things while swinging the club, I just notice when I do them (too tense, over-swing, etc.) and use the information to ensure my next practice swing is where I need it.

Edited by BenHoganSlam1953, 14 February 2018 - 11:50 AM.

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