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TM Twist Face Rumor


245 replies to this topic

#31 gioguy21

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:25 AM

timeline (yes, leaving out some other 'fluff' - but sticking to the important notes):

- signs with titleist
- doesn't get testing equipment from TM
- posts an attempt at humor youtube video about how he didn't get what he wanted
- posts a 'rumor' of TM clubs on twitter

hmm...since he's assuming it's true, can we assume that crossfield could be arrogant enough, or paid to badmouth TM since signing with Titleist?

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#32 DTown3011

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:26 AM

I have no horse in this race.  Frankly, I don’t care either way.  That said, I do not believe that variants in things like face bulge and roll (TwistFace) or CG location need to be delineated or broken out on the conforming list.  As long as the model had “TwistFace” stamped out on the toe like the regular models, TaylorMade could theoretically have a model without it and not require a Spears USGA submission.  I’m not saying they DO (I find this hard to believe) I’ll I’m saying is they COULD.  Face bulge and roll wouldn’t constitute a different model in my opinion.  Just like various Tour models with different internal CG locations need not be submitted separately.

Again, not sure how this would benefit TaylorMade in any way by doing this, but do not thing we should or can use the USGA list as the determining factor.
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#33 puresurfr

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:32 AM

I wonder if there are certain degrees of twist face .....Just as loft and lies can vary even though they are stamped a certain way.  Perhaps the spec is 4 degrees of twist but pros will opt for the faces with the least amount of twist, say 1.2*

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#34 Jungleland

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:33 AM

View PostQuigleyDU, on 12 February 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

it is interesting that since the beginning of the year. the two biggest ( ok, two biggest i know of) club reviewers and product testers for golf on youtube have gone totally different directions. Rick seems to be trying to be more thorough and technical in his approach and delivery, and Mark seems to be trying to be more and more a comedian.

Agreed, Crossfield has become a cartoon character

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#35 Danm2501

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:42 AM

Quote

Great reply Kevin. Stay classy. Asking questions to twitter rather than those in the know is just fueling the rumor. I’ll squash it now. Having built drivers all week on the tour truck at Pebble, I can tell you every M3/M4 driver on that truck has twistface. Every single one.

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https://twitter.com/...052934526152705

Well that puts that rumour to rest.

Edited by Danm2501, 12 February 2018 - 10:43 AM.

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#36 AzSuperHack76

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

His feed on the tweet he posted went pretty sideways for him, I got a good laugh out of it.

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#37 driveandputtmachine

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:49 AM

View PostHot Rod 71, on 12 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

TaylorMade tour players rarely use the same drivers sold at retail. This is nothing new.

A quick check of the conforming list will reveal the truth.

Edit: I checked the USGA Conforming List and all of the M3/4 drivers listed have Twist Face. (pp. 1127-1128). The list is dated effective February 12, 2018. In generations past it was common to see several versions of a TM driver (V2, V3, V4, etc.). These were normally the tour heads.

https://www.usga.org...gClubList_M.pdf

I agree on almost everything.  So Crossfield is stating that TM has clubs that have all the same markings, "SOLE: TaylorMade (w/ T logo), GEOCOUSTIC, M4, HAMMERHEAD CROWN: (T logo alignment mark), M4 HOSEL: (twelve lines), (orientation indicators) HEEL: (loft) FACE:TWIST FACE" However have a differently constructed crown and face(Based on the radius and the way the face works, the crown would have to be slightly different to accommodate a differently a face) that does not have a separate entry on the conforming list?

I am not sure what the golf police would do to TM if that were the case and they were found out, but the PR backlash alone would be a huge reason not to do this.  Let alone any sanctions levied against TM, and the players and how harsh they could be for using a club that is technically not conforming.
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#38 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:52 AM

MC trying to stir the pot. Youtube turning into a cesspool of drama and BS, and a lot less about giving golfers the info they need on equipment.
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#39 Your-away!

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:58 AM

View Postdriveandputtmachine, on 12 February 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

View PostHot Rod 71, on 12 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

TaylorMade tour players rarely use the same drivers sold at retail. This is nothing new.

A quick check of the conforming list will reveal the truth.

Edit: I checked the USGA Conforming List and all of the M3/4 drivers listed have Twist Face. (pp. 1127-1128). The list is dated effective February 12, 2018. In generations past it was common to see several versions of a TM driver (V2, V3, V4, etc.). These were normally the tour heads.

https://www.usga.org...gClubList_M.pdf

I agree on almost everything.  So Crossfield is stating that TM has clubs that have all the same markings, "SOLE: TaylorMade (w/ T logo), GEOCOUSTIC, M4, HAMMERHEAD CROWN: (T logo alignment mark), M4 HOSEL: (twelve lines), (orientation indicators) HEEL: (loft) FACE:TWIST FACE" However have a differently constructed crown and face(Based on the radius and the way the face works, the crown would have to be slightly different to accommodate a differently a face) that does not have a separate entry on the conforming list?

I am not sure what the golf police would do to TM if that were the case and they were found out, but the PR backlash alone would be a huge reason not to do this.  Let alone any sanctions levied against TM, and the players and how harsh they could be for using a club that is technically not conforming.

Crossfield didnt STATE anything, he tweeted about a "rumour", end of.

Not like Taylormade haven't done similar stuff in the past is it, just look at all the different versions of the same irons.
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#40 DFS PFD

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:58 AM

I see a lawsuit in Crossfield's future if this behavior continues.

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#41 the bishop

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:06 AM

Not a follower of Crossfield or Shiels but of course aware of their work from being on here.  That is pretty irresponsible thing to post and adding the "NOT A STATEMENT" at the end doesn't make it ok.  The repercussions of something like that if it were true could be pretty wide ranging and once something like that gets out there on social media it can be pretty tough for a company to get control of the narrative back.  Bit of a d*** move.
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#42 wfrogge1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

He clearly says this is a rumor.

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#43 gioguy21

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM

View Postwfrogge1, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

He clearly says this is a rumor.
"...but i said all due respect"...

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#44 stevemac

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:16 AM

View PostDTown3011, on 12 February 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

I have no horse in this race.  Frankly, I don't care either way.  That said, I do not believe that variants in things like face bulge and roll (TwistFace) or CG location need to be delineated or broken out on the conforming list.  As long as the model had "TwistFace" stamped out on the toe like the regular models, TaylorMade could theoretically have a model without it and not require a Spears USGA submission.  I'm not saying they DO (I find this hard to believe) I'll I'm saying is they COULD.  Face bulge and roll wouldn't constitute a different model in my opinion.  Just like various Tour models with different internal CG locations need not be submitted separately.

Again, not sure how this would benefit TaylorMade in any way by doing this, but do not thing we should or can use the USGA list as the determining factor.


This is absolutely true.  Years ago I had a friend who had access to most all tour product from reps, caddies, etc.  Ping and Titleist were always the most difficult to get with Cameron the most.  It was very interesting that the Vokeys coming out, stamped spin mill, were not milled.  We also know that many players have played different manufacturers irons with their sponsored manufacturer stamped on.  I don't think that bulge and roll would constitute having to have a different model for the USGA list but there may be something that they do have to comply with as far as limits.

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#45 wfrogge1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:17 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

View Postwfrogge1, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

He clearly says this is a rumor.
"...but i said all due respect"...

He says its a rumor and asks for more information. Given TM's hidden from the public "Tour only model "B" " drivers of the past  I can understand why some would feel there are tour only clubs that are different. There is zero harm in relaying the rumor then asking for more information. Why are folks so scared to question authority?

Edited by wfrogge1, 12 February 2018 - 11:18 AM.


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#46 gioguy21

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:20 AM

View Postwfrogge1, on 12 February 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

View Postgioguy21, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

View Postwfrogge1, on 12 February 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

He clearly says this is a rumor.
"...but i said all due respect"...

He says its a rumor and asks for more information. Given TM's hidden from the public "Tour only model "B" " drivers of the past  I can understand why some would feel there are tour only clubs that are different. There is zero harm in stating the rumor then asking for more information. Why are folks so scared to question authority?
who's afraid?

TM has in the past also come out with 3 or 4 iterations of the R1 driver -- all of which on the conforming list. are you saying that 'sometimes they do, sometimes they don't' with regard to getting things certified conforming or not?

with regard to MC, you have to take into account his audience, and the previous experiences he has had with Taylormade (not even that long ago) - to see that just maaaaybe it's a poke and not just an 'inquiring mind'....

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#47 jll62

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:22 AM

View Poststevemac, on 12 February 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

View PostDTown3011, on 12 February 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

I have no horse in this race.  Frankly, I don't care either way.  That said, I do not believe that variants in things like face bulge and roll (TwistFace) or CG location need to be delineated or broken out on the conforming list.  As long as the model had "TwistFace" stamped out on the toe like the regular models, TaylorMade could theoretically have a model without it and not require a Spears USGA submission.  I'm not saying they DO (I find this hard to believe) I'll I'm saying is they COULD.  Face bulge and roll wouldn't constitute a different model in my opinion.  Just like various Tour models with different internal CG locations need not be submitted separately.

Again, not sure how this would benefit TaylorMade in any way by doing this, but do not thing we should or can use the USGA list as the determining factor.


This is absolutely true.  Years ago I had a friend who had access to most all tour product from reps, caddies, etc.  Ping and Titleist were always the most difficult to get with Cameron the most.  It was very interesting that the Vokeys coming out, stamped spin mill, were not milled.  We also know that many players have played different manufacturers irons with their sponsored manufacturer stamped on.  I don't think that bulge and roll would constitute having to have a different model for the USGA list but there may be something that they do have to comply with as far as limits.

This is an apples to oranges comparison because there is no list for wedge iron conformity. Only driver heads have a list, which is why the markings are important for drivers because that's the only way to differentiate an entry on the list. Wedges and irons simply need to conform to the rules for equipment that are spelled out in the rules of golf. Driver heads need to be tested and you may only play a driver head that's on the conforming list if this specific condition of competition is in effect for your event.

I personally believe that a model without Twist Face would need to be tested separately because the change in face construction (and corresponding sole/crown construction) could absolutely impact the head's performance during the CT test. There's no doubt in my mind that a separate model would need to be on the list.
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#48 RichieHunt

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:27 AM

View PostHot Rod 71, on 12 February 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

TaylorMade tour players rarely use the same drivers sold at retail. This is nothing new.

That's not really an accurate description.  They will likely use a hand picked model that has the exact loft and face angle models with an aftermarket shaft, but they are almost always using the same design.  

In essence, I would highly doubt that the players are not using the Twist Face designed M3 and M4's.  TM is going to have some problems getting some players to switch to the M3/M4 because they get a little more spin due to the change in the CoG from the M1/M2 models.  But most of them will get contract incentives to play the M3/M4 and you would be surprised at how even the highest paid Tour players cannot refuse those contract incentives to play a club that may be worse for them.






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#49 cvhookem63

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:28 AM

View PostDanm2501, on 12 February 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

Quote

Great reply Kevin. Stay classy. Asking questions to twitter rather than those in the know is just fueling the rumor. I’ll squash it now. Having built drivers all week on the tour truck at Pebble, I can tell you every M3/M4 driver on that truck has twistface. Every single one.

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https://twitter.com/...052934526152705

Well that puts that rumour to rest.


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#50 Yanki01

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:31 AM

dude wants MGS to confirm or stir the pot more? sheesh

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#51 gioguy21

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:32 AM

View PostYanki01, on 12 February 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

dude wants MGS to confirm or stir the pot more? sheesh
yea, why wouldn't he just confirm with TM? seems like ill-will was intended. like i said, "...but i said with all due respect" #myopinion #justasking #seriouslyjustasking #titleist

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#52 bcflyguy1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:33 AM

View Postcvhookem63, on 12 February 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:


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#53 jll62

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:36 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 12 February 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostYanki01, on 12 February 2018 - 11:31 AM, said:

dude wants MGS to confirm or stir the pot more? sheesh
yea, why wouldn't he just confirm with TM? seems like ill-will was intended. like i said, "...but i said with all due respect" #myopinion #justasking #seriouslyjustasking #titleist

He knows MGS has just as big of a bias against TaylorMade as he does. No doubt in my mind the original tweet was intended to cause issues. Crossfield is a joke at this point. He should join the staff of MGS. Perfect bedfellows.

Edited by jll62, 12 February 2018 - 11:37 AM.

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TaylorMade M2 9.5 (2017), Graphite Design Tour AD GP-6s Black Edition
TaylorMade M2 T3 (2016 deep face), Graphite Design Purple Ice 85X
TaylorMade UDI 2, KBS C-Taper Lite 115 X
TaylorMade RSi TP 4, KBS C-Taper 120 S
TaylorMade RSi TP 5-PW, KBS C-Taper 125 S+
Vokey SM6 Raw 50.08F, KBS 610 120 S
Vokey SM6 Raw 54.10S (bent to 55), DGS400
TaylorMade Milled Grind 60 LB.09, KBS 610 120 S
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23

#54 RichieHunt

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:37 AM

I don’t know what Crossfield really expects.  If you sign with Titleist other OEM’s are going to be skeptical of your reviews that are very subjective to begin with.  Even though Crossfield has been positive about TM reviews in the past, what would make people think that he would provide a negative review of Titleist now that he is getting paid by them.

I would be willing to take Mark’s reviews with an open mind and see if he could prove that despite his affiliation with Titleist that he would give open and honest reviews.  But Mark not being able to see that people like myself are in the minority is really out of touch with reality.  And this passive aggressive accusations on Twitter are not doing him any favors.





RH

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#55 Kid Bro Sweets

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:38 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 12 February 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

timeline (yes, leaving out some other 'fluff' - but sticking to the important notes):

- signs with titleist
- doesn't get testing equipment from TM
- posts an attempt at humor youtube video about how he didn't get what he wanted
- posts a 'rumor' of TM clubs on twitter

hmm...since he's assuming it's true, can we assume that crossfield could be arrogant enough, or paid to badmouth TM since signing with Titleist?

i can't wait for his next Titleist review.  Does he do a witb anymore or i assume it's all Titleist clubs if he's under contract?

Edited by Kid Bro Sweets, 12 February 2018 - 11:39 AM.

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#56 bcflyguy1

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:42 AM

View PostKid Bro Sweets, on 12 February 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

View Postgioguy21, on 12 February 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

timeline (yes, leaving out some other 'fluff' - but sticking to the important notes):

- signs with titleist
- doesn't get testing equipment from TM
- posts an attempt at humor youtube video about how he didn't get what he wanted
- posts a 'rumor' of TM clubs on twitter

hmm...since he's assuming it's true, can we assume that crossfield could be arrogant enough, or paid to badmouth TM since signing with Titleist?

i can't wait for his next Titleist review.  Does he do a witb anymore or i assume it's all Titleist clubs if he's under contract?

He still has his favorite Ping 23* hybrid in the bag.
Never forget that the luxury of being
wrong is not enough to make you right.
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#57 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:47 AM

He should release where the "rumbles" were heard from.

This is why I'm sticking to golf vlog stuff from now on from like Golfaholics, Cartbarnguys, Formula1 golf, etc. These giant pissing matches with Parfield, Shiels, etc is sophomoric and a waste of time.
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#58 knock it close

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:02 PM

What an obnoxious little dweeb.


Also he keeps saying "bruh" on twitter like he's a cali teen from 2011.

Edited by knock it close, 12 February 2018 - 12:03 PM.

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#59 cliche

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM

MC got a little to much "power". he thinks that his opinion on golf is the only correct one, and everyone who doesn't go with it clearly didn't get it. y couple of weeks ago he was raving against HSBC bank because of some bank stuff. really stop it MC. i really like your reviews and vlogs, but you start behaving like a spoiled kid.

and even if the pros dont play the twistface... who cares. you are still not going to be as good as a pro, even when you've got their gear or swingspeed

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#60 lspky_muskie

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:13 PM

I'm sure TM has a way to measure the twist on each face.  I'm also sure TM has a different amount of twist on the faces due to manufacturing tolerances.  

I would not be surprised if we found out you could walk into the van and pick out how much twist you wanted while still playing a conforming driver.


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