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Loft vs. Spin


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#1 MCGolfTM

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:06 PM

Currently playing M2 and have Kuro Kage Silver TiNi 60g (65.5g) and getting around 12-14* launch and 2800-3000 spin. Looking to get the spin down for a little ,ore distance. Should I go with less loft or try and get a heavier shaft that could help get the spin down. Was looking into the Fujikura Pro 73 (77g).

TM M3 460 9.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM M4 3HL 16.5* Fujikura Pro73
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#2 MCGolfTM

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:09 PM

I am worried the added weight may hurt distance. I have 105-108 driver SS
TM M3 460 9.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM M4 3HL 16.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM P790 UDI 17* PX HZRDUS Black 85
TM M2 Tour 4-9 KBS C-Taper 105
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#3 getitdaily

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:18 PM

When you say less loft, are you talking about a new driver head or just turning down the loft of the current head?

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#4 MCGolfTM

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:21 PM

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

When you say less loft, are you talking about a new driver head or just turning down the loft of the current head?

New driver. Looking at the shaft charts for TaylorMade I was looking at a shaft that is a little lower launch and lower spin. But the one that seems to be in the middle is the Pro 73 and it’s 10-12g more. Wondering if it’ll a problem with more weight than I should go. I play 70g fairways with Kuro Kage Silver.
TM M3 460 9.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM M4 3HL 16.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM P790 UDI 17* PX HZRDUS Black 85
TM M2 Tour 4-9 KBS C-Taper 105
TM P770 PW KBS FLT
TM Milled Grind 50/54 KBS 610
TM Hi-Toe 60 KBS 610
TM Spider Tour Black Putter
TM TP5x

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#5 getitdaily

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:25 PM

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

When you say less loft, are you talking about a new driver head or just turning down the loft of the current head?

New driver. Looking at the shaft charts for TaylorMade I was looking at a shaft that is a little lower launch and lower spin. But the one that seems to be in the middle is the Pro 73 and itís 10-12g more. Wondering if itíll a problem with more weight than I should go. I play 70g fairways with Kuro Kage Silver.

8 grams of weight difference in shafts won't be the cause of distance loss.

If you're thinking of changing then just go get fit into the head/shaft combo that gives optimal numbers.

Otherwise you're going to have to do a good bit of research and find shafts to hit and then play the crapshoot that is plug and play shaft work.


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#6 MCGolfTM

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:32 PM

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

When you say less loft, are you talking about a new driver head or just turning down the loft of the current head?

New driver. Looking at the shaft charts for TaylorMade I was looking at a shaft that is a little lower launch and lower spin. But the one that seems to be in the middle is the Pro 73 and it’s 10-12g more. Wondering if it’ll a problem with more weight than I should go. I play 70g fairways with Kuro Kage Silver.

8 grams of weight difference in shafts won't be the cause of distance loss.

If you're thinking of changing then just go get fit into the head/shaft combo that gives optimal numbers.

Otherwise you're going to have to do a good bit of research and find shafts to hit and then play the crapshoot that is plug and play shaft work.

The local places here do not have all the shafts to try. I was fit into the Kuro Kage over a year ago and I was swing down on the ball more back then so I was fit into that shaft. Down my ball flight is quite high and the spin is up.
TM M3 460 9.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM M4 3HL 16.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM P790 UDI 17* PX HZRDUS Black 85
TM M2 Tour 4-9 KBS C-Taper 105
TM P770 PW KBS FLT
TM Milled Grind 50/54 KBS 610
TM Hi-Toe 60 KBS 610
TM Spider Tour Black Putter
TM TP5x

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#7 getitdaily

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:36 PM

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

View Postgetitdaily, on 10 February 2018 - 07:18 PM, said:

When you say less loft, are you talking about a new driver head or just turning down the loft of the current head?

New driver. Looking at the shaft charts for TaylorMade I was looking at a shaft that is a little lower launch and lower spin. But the one that seems to be in the middle is the Pro 73 and itís 10-12g more. Wondering if itíll a problem with more weight than I should go. I play 70g fairways with Kuro Kage Silver.

8 grams of weight difference in shafts won't be the cause of distance loss.

If you're thinking of changing then just go get fit into the head/shaft combo that gives optimal numbers.

Otherwise you're going to have to do a good bit of research and find shafts to hit and then play the crapshoot that is plug and play shaft work.

The local places here do not have all the shafts to try. I was fit into the Kuro Kage over a year ago and I was swing down on the ball more back then so I was fit into that shaft. Down my ball flight is quite high and the spin is up.

Quick test for you to see what could work...turn that m2 down a notch or two. Delofting will reduce spin. If you can get on a launch monitor then you can easily tell if lower launch SHOULD reduce spin for you.

Just remember that delofting also opens the face when you sole the club.

Edited by getitdaily, 10 February 2018 - 07:39 PM.


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#8 Benkross

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.
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#9 MCGolfTM

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:57 AM

View PostBenkross, on 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.

Playing S Flex.
TM M3 460 9.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM M4 3HL 16.5* Fujikura Pro73
TM P790 UDI 17* PX HZRDUS Black 85
TM M2 Tour 4-9 KBS C-Taper 105
TM P770 PW KBS FLT
TM Milled Grind 50/54 KBS 610
TM Hi-Toe 60 KBS 610
TM Spider Tour Black Putter
TM TP5x

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#10 scunny

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 09:47 AM

i always go down in loft first when trying to reduce spin as you physically changing something whereas the shaft changes can sometimes do the opposite
if ther loft change has done it or the face angle issues cause another issue then its look at shaft and how it matches the players dynamics


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#11 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:36 AM

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

Currently playing M2 and have Kuro Kage Silver TiNi 60g (65.5g) and getting around 12-14* launch and 2800-3000 spin. Looking to get the spin down for a little ,ore distance. Should I go with less loft or try and get a heavier shaft that could help get the spin down. Was looking into the Fujikura Pro 73 (77g).

1) heavier does not necessarily mean low launching.  You can find a wide range of stiffness profiles in all weights.  Weight is a very important shaft spec to get fit properly but don't change weight just to chase numbers, do it for the right reasons - which is usually that you get better results for control, accuracy and consistency with the different weight.

2)  Changing loft is usually much more effective at controlling launch and spin then trying to do so with the shaft stiffness profile IF you are getting good center face contact.  And that's a big IF - which leads us to:

3) The most important factor in determining how much spin you get is face impact location.  So before changing anything, you need to check that first.  Get some foot powder spray and see where the face impact is occurring and how consistent it is.   Dont mess with loft until you are getting good impact location.

Edited by Stuart G., 11 February 2018 - 10:39 AM.


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#12 NPVWhiz

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:04 PM

View PostMCGolfTM, on 10 February 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

Currently playing M2 and have Kuro Kage Silver TiNi 60g (65.5g) and getting around 12-14* launch and 2800-3000 spin. Looking to get the spin down for a little ,ore distance. Should I go with less loft or try and get a heavier shaft that could help get the spin down. Was looking into the Fujikura Pro 73 (77g).

How do you feel about current driver shaft?  Is it a "dang, if I broke this shaft or had it stolen my game will be lost" kind of fairway finding machine, or do you just hit it OK....6 or 7 fairways a round or 9 or 10?  Next, how well does it mesh with the two fairway woods in the bag.  Do you like all three at the top end of the bag?  

The other question would be how does the AoD look if the numbers you've provided are from a TM or FS system.  If your angle of descent isn't bad I might not worry about the spin quite as much.  How high you tee the ball and your AoA might be something that you could tweak just slightly to get a little better dynamic loft at impact in a way that kills a little spin, although I'm not a fan of trying to change one's swing when a simple change like a lower loft head might do the trick.  If things are working well on the course, I'd go the most conservative route and find a truly lower lofted head that is equal or better in smash for a well struck shot on the Trackman.  I've been grinding with a low smash, high spin setup with the driver for years now because I just haven't had the will or the time to find something better, but more importantly because even with the 2900-3200 spin and fairly steep AoD, I hit a lot of fairways with it.  It just doesn't roll anywhere on softer midwestern fairways.  It isn't nearly as bad out in Phoenix or some other place firm, but here locally where I log most of my rounds it doesn't approach optimal from a total distance perspective, but I absolutely love the way it feels and I am confident with it on the tee moving it either way or not at all, so it's been tough to replace.

Like StuartG said, hitting the ball consistently on the right spot on the face is paramount in the long run, and as a 9 or 10 index you might be seeing a bit wider range of spin on 20 shots with the Trackman, which means that if some of the shots produce good numbers..it may be that those are the ones that were well struck and that should be what you're shooting for rather than an equipment change.  But if the spin numbers were consistent, and consistently high, then maybe same head, and a truly lower, measured loft would put you in the right window.

Edited by NPVWhiz, 11 February 2018 - 12:07 PM.

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#13 tobybear

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:05 PM

Spin is the result of a few factors:

Speed & Loft / Spin Loft

the Higher speed you are the more spin you will create - its physics,

One simple option is find a lower loft - lower spinning club head, or look for a club with completely different dynamics to help create lower spin in general.  You have given us your swing speed but what is your angle of attack. A couple degrees more up would certainly help reduce spin.

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#14 cxx

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 12:32 PM

You might want to look at the trajectory optimizer to see what gains, if any, you're likely to see.

https://flightscope....tory-optimizer/

There are a lot of considerations other than distance. It's easy to work your way into a club that performs while testing but not on the course.

I like higher rather than lower, but I am a low spin player. I agree with Stuart, tee the ball up a little an hit it above the equator of the face. That will knock a lot of spin off the ball.

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#15 winnersplaycallaway

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:51 PM

View Postscunny, on 11 February 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

i always go down in loft first when trying to reduce spin as you physically changing something whereas the shaft changes can sometimes do the opposite
if ther loft change has done it or the face angle issues cause another issue then its look at shaft and how it matches the players dynamics

^^^ THIS

Each degree of loft changes the spin by an average 300 rpm on a robot. As long as you keep your launch between 10-14 you should be fine. I would not change the flex that you were fitted for to try to change spin. If your swing speed is 95-105 then stay with stiff.

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#16 pearsonified

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:58 AM

I like your launch but hate your spin.

Factory Kuro Kage shafts from TM are weak af; I'd try a different shaft in the same weight class before trying anything else.

Almost any after-market shaft is going to be stiffer-tipped than that pansy stock offering from TM.
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#17 TollBros

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:45 PM

Each degree of loft is around 300rpm of spin difference in the same head. Unfortunately with retail heads a 9.5 would be 9.5 or 11 degrees of loft. You just won't know. Your launch is fine but spin is more important. I'd try to have the loft of your current head digitally measured and then find a shop that will measure another so you can drop 2 degrees of actual loft. Or just get a tip stiff profile that will chop off 500+ of spin.
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#18 Benkross

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 05:53 PM

View PostMCGolfTM, on 11 February 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.

Playing S Flex.
Also tried a few combos. First was 9.5* M1 440 with a Hzrdus black 63g 6.5. Hit some stupid long drives, but misses were a disaster. Went to a 9* lofted up to 10* Epic Sub Zero with a TP6x - easy to load and hits flat bombs. I have a smooth transition and swing 108 mph. Love this combo. Thinking of also trying the Evenflow 65g 6.5. was playing a 2017 M2 10.5 lofted down with both a 661 and 757 Speeder Evolution (blue version). Stupid straight but killed by the wind. Chased numbers on trackman 100-115 ft peak height after watching Justin Thomas win two in a row in Hawaii. Forgot my home course is really windy DOH! After watching all my friends with lower ball flight outdrive me, I gave up on what was a really expensive experiment.



Edited by Benkross, 14 February 2018 - 05:55 PM.

Epic Sub Zero 10.6* (Tour AD TP6x)
Epic 3 Wood 15* (Rogue Black 80s)
R15 TP 20* 869 Speeder Evo TS xstiff
716 AP2 (ProjectX PXi 6.5) 4-9 / 716 MB PW (ProjectX 6.0)

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#19 getitdaily

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 06:30 PM

View PostBenkross, on 14 February 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostMCGolfTM, on 11 February 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.

Playing S Flex.
Also tried a few combos. First was 9.5* M1 440 with a Hzrdus black 63g 6.5. Hit some stupid long drives, but misses were a disaster. Went to a 9* lofted up to 10* Epic Sub Zero with a TP6x - easy to load and hits flat bombs. I have a smooth transition and swing 108 mph. Love this combo. Thinking of also trying the Evenflow 65g 6.5. was playing a 2017 M2 10.5 lofted down with both a 661 and 757 Speeder Evolution (blue version). Stupid straight but killed by the wind. Chased numbers on trackman 100-115 ft peak height after watching Justin Thomas win two in a row in Hawaii. Forgot my home course is really windy DOH! After watching all my friends with lower ball flight outdrive me, I gave up on what was a really expensive experiment.

I'm a smooth transitioner and 108-110 with driver too. The aldila rogue 125msi is phenomenal for me. Penetrating ball flight but not crazy low...in a 2016 m2 head. I play the 60 tour s but it's strong to flex.

I get between 10.5 and 12 launch with 2200 spin and I play a fade

Edited by getitdaily, 14 February 2018 - 06:32 PM.


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#20 Benkross

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:45 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 14 February 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 14 February 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostMCGolfTM, on 11 February 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.

Playing S Flex.
Also tried a few combos. First was 9.5* M1 440 with a Hzrdus black 63g 6.5. Hit some stupid long drives, but misses were a disaster. Went to a 9* lofted up to 10* Epic Sub Zero with a TP6x - easy to load and hits flat bombs. I have a smooth transition and swing 108 mph. Love this combo. Thinking of also trying the Evenflow 65g 6.5. was playing a 2017 M2 10.5 lofted down with both a 661 and 757 Speeder Evolution (blue version). Stupid straight but killed by the wind. Chased numbers on trackman 100-115 ft peak height after watching Justin Thomas win two in a row in Hawaii. Forgot my home course is really windy DOH! After watching all my friends with lower ball flight outdrive me, I gave up on what was a really expensive experiment.

I'm a smooth transitioner and 108-110 with driver too. The aldila rogue 125msi is phenomenal for me. Penetrating ball flight but not crazy low...in a 2016 m2 head. I play the 60 tour s but it's strong to flex.

I get between 10.5 and 12 launch with 2200 spin and I play a fade
You can get those rogues for a great price now. I may have to follow your recommendation. I missed it the first time around. Played the Rogue Silver and Rogue Black made for versions but never ponied up for the Tour version.

Epic Sub Zero 10.6* (Tour AD TP6x)
Epic 3 Wood 15* (Rogue Black 80s)
R15 TP 20* 869 Speeder Evo TS xstiff
716 AP2 (ProjectX PXi 6.5) 4-9 / 716 MB PW (ProjectX 6.0)

Vokey Wedges
SM5 F Grind 52/8 (ProjectX 6.0)
SM6 S Grind 57/11 (ProjectX 6.0)
SM6 M Grind 62/10 (ProjectX 5.5)

Kingston GSS KP1
TP 5/5x

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#21 getitdaily

getitdaily

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 07:17 AM

View PostBenkross, on 15 February 2018 - 01:45 AM, said:

View Postgetitdaily, on 14 February 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 14 February 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostMCGolfTM, on 11 February 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

View PostBenkross, on 11 February 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Are you playing an S or X flex. I had the same issue and first went to a 75g S. Lost 3-4 mph clubhead speed. Went to 65g X and it was great. Less spin, better launch.

Playing S Flex.
Also tried a few combos. First was 9.5* M1 440 with a Hzrdus black 63g 6.5. Hit some stupid long drives, but misses were a disaster. Went to a 9* lofted up to 10* Epic Sub Zero with a TP6x - easy to load and hits flat bombs. I have a smooth transition and swing 108 mph. Love this combo. Thinking of also trying the Evenflow 65g 6.5. was playing a 2017 M2 10.5 lofted down with both a 661 and 757 Speeder Evolution (blue version). Stupid straight but killed by the wind. Chased numbers on trackman 100-115 ft peak height after watching Justin Thomas win two in a row in Hawaii. Forgot my home course is really windy DOH! After watching all my friends with lower ball flight outdrive me, I gave up on what was a really expensive experiment.

I'm a smooth transitioner and 108-110 with driver too. The aldila rogue 125msi is phenomenal for me. Penetrating ball flight but not crazy low...in a 2016 m2 head. I play the 60 tour s but it's strong to flex.

I get between 10.5 and 12 launch with 2200 spin and I play a fade
You can get those rogues for a great price now. I may have to follow your recommendation. I missed it the first time around. Played the Rogue Silver and Rogue Black made for versions but never ponied up for the Tour version.

I grabbed a wilson triton off the used rack for $100 for the shaft. Then I jumped on the golf galaxy clearance and bought another one for  $75 so I have a backup. You should be able to to d a used triton somewhere. If not, they're clearanced for around $150.

What part of the country/world are you in?

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#22 nateyack

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:18 PM

I just got the M4 and the tensei white shaft helped me bring my spin down while I went up a degree in loft.

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