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chipping rollout of 8,9,PW differences just practice?


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#31 Mike73

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:48 AM

I usually use my 54* sw, and the more I use it the better I am with it. I find the best method is to concentrate on the spot on the green you want to hit and forget about the hole, the ball will take care of itself. If I hit my spot, I will get it close to the hole. Trust is a must!


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#32 MrJones

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:14 AM

I "chip" (15 yards or less) with multiple clubs. I "pitch" (over 15 yards) with my wedges only.

Getting used to chipping around the green with multiple clubs isn't hard IMO. Once you do it a little you'll get a feel for it the same as you have for your putting stroke.
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#33 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:36 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 11 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you were playing on a flat piece of AstroTurf the rule of 12 might work. Instead learn to hit low/middle/high shots and visualize the shot and your landing spot.

I hit a lot of shots with a 58 but will use a PW and a 7 iron if I want a lot of run.

Ok, once more...

The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.

And when you say that you mostly use a 58, but will use a PW or 7i, you are doing exactly the same thing as the Rule of 12, except in a LESS "formal" way.

As to whether or not the Rule of 12 "works", other than on a "flat piece of Astroturf", I think you're stuck in rigid thinking about how it's used.  Paul Runyan devised it decades ago, and it's been used by pros and amateurs alike ever since.  I was taught the method over 25 years ago, and it's taught by teaching pros all over the world.  You adjust the club selection for many factors other than just the ratio of distance, but there is no doubt that it is a time-tested, valid way to approach chipping.

Take a look at Brian Manzella's video; it might answer some of your questions.  And you might note that he is NOT chipping on a flat piece of Astroturf in the video. :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig

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#34 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:51 AM

View Postdap, on 11 February 2018 - 09:22 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 11 February 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 10 February 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

Just wouldn't have the time to develop the expertise for using 6-7 or more different clubs for chipping.

First of all, you've got it backwards; the need for "expertise" becomes GREATER as you use fewer clubs, not less.  The whole idea behind the Rule of 12, or anything similar, is that you simply use the club that will fly the ball to a "safe" spot on the green and then let it roll out more or less.  Because your lofts are consistent, so is the roll out.  It takes LESS practice time to use one stroke with multiple clubs instead of one club with multiple strokes.
In theory that is true but using one club allows you to be a feel player. I can chip the ball harder or softer depending on my speed judgement. The rule of 12 sounds too mechanical to me. You really need to know the precise distance to the hole, factor in slope, figure out which club to use and hope your chip stroke is always the same in strength every time. It takes away all your feel for speed and rely on a method. I wouldn't want to play with someone who spends 5 minutes calculating their chip shots. It also adds a lot more work to playing the game. You have enough to think about during the round already managing your full swing and general course management.

You don't need to know the "precise distance to the hole"; you simply have to estimate the approximate ratio of carry to roll.  You can usually do this by you eye as you approach the green; at worst, you can quickly pace it, which I might have to do once or twice a round.  In any case, it adds NO time to the round, I assure you.  I routinely walk 18 holes in under 3 hours or less, and my foursome never takes more than 4 hours; they wouldn't let me play if I took 5 minutes on ANY shot.

As to "feel" there is ZERO difference between using multiple clubs to chip than in using multiple clubs to hit full swings; it amazes me that people here have such a hard time understanding that.  You and I both know that we add or subtract in club selection from 150 yds. according to wind, slope, pin position, hazards, etc; NOBODY advocates ALWAYS hitting a 7 iron from 150 simply because that's what they hit on a flat, windless shot on the range.  What is the difference between adjusting club selection from 150, and adjusting club selection from 15 feet?  And of course, the answer is "Absolutely NOTHING!".  It doesn't take any more time that rehearsing a different stroke with you4 58* wedge a half dozen times before you play the shot; all of that stuff about how long it takes is a red herring.

I know the method isn't for everybody, and that's ok.  The OP asked about using more than one club to chip, and I, along with others, simply mentioned a method that has been in use for a long, long time at all levels of the game.  Using multiple clubs to chip and getting the ball rolling as quickly as possible, just like you would on a putt, is time tested and successful; there is no arguing that.

View PostMrJones, on 12 February 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

I "chip" (15 yards or less) with multiple clubs. I "pitch" (over 15 yards) with my wedges only.

Getting used to chipping around the green with multiple clubs isn't hard IMO. Once you do it a little you'll get a feel for it the same as you have for your putting stroke.

Bingo!  Great summary, and thank you!

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#35 Cicero

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:07 AM

I’m not a good player; this is exacerbated by the fact that I haven’t been able to play much over the previous few years.  In spite of that, I was able to implement the rule of 12 (or something similar) on the course, without practice.  Once you understand the concept, the adjustments to uphill/downhill are not hard at all.  

It basically comes down to landing the ball on about the same spot relative to the edge of the green (ended up being about 3’ for me), and picking the club that would allow the rollout to reach the hole.  That, combined with the simplicity of using a putting stroke, had me chipping better than I ever had before that round.  

Over the course of a round, you probably won’t use too many clubs.  And if you’re like me, you’ll probably gravitate to a favorite chipping club or two.  But for me, having an idea of the carry-to-roll ratio has improved my chipping to the point that I’m actually confident over chips, because they’ve basically become like putting.  For someone who doesn’t have the opportunity to get out much, that’s huge.

It’s not for everybody (nothing is).  But in practice, it is a lot simpler that it sounds “on paper”.


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#36 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:03 PM

View PostCicero, on 12 February 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

I’m not a good player; this is exacerbated by the fact that I haven’t been able to play much over the previous few years.  In spite of that, I was able to implement the rule of 12 (or something similar) on the course, without practice.  Once you understand the concept, the adjustments to uphill/downhill are not hard at all.  

It basically comes down to landing the ball on about the same spot relative to the edge of the green (ended up being about 3’ for me), and picking the club that would allow the rollout to reach the hole.  That, combined with the simplicity of using a putting stroke, had me chipping better than I ever had before that round.  

Over the course of a round, you probably won’t use too many clubs.  And if you’re like me, you’ll probably gravitate to a favorite chipping club or two.  But for me, having an idea of the carry-to-roll ratio has improved my chipping to the point that I’m actually confident over chips, because they’ve basically become like putting.  For someone who doesn’t have the opportunity to get out much, that’s huge.

It’s not for everybody (nothing is).  But in practice, it is a lot simpler that it sounds “on paper”.

Good post; thank you!  It IS a simple way to chip; that's actually the biggest attraction of it.  It takes LESS practice time, not more.

I'm always puzzled by the folks who talk about being able to judge carry accurately (vs. roll) by "feel" by constantly adjusting their swing with one club, because that SHOULD mean that they would chip from the green instead of putting, right?  I mean, it's either easier or it's not, right?  But nobody ever answers that question when I ask it...

Edited by bluedot, 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM.


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#37 North Butte

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM

i basically putt from everywhere there's not a bunker or water in the way. if you seriously mean to "get the ball rolling as soon as possible" that is putter, not an iron.

Edited by North Butte, 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#38 nsxguy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:14 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

i basically putt from everywhere there's not a bunker or water in the way. if you seriously mean to "get the ball rolling as soon as possible" that is putter, not an iron.

Are you just trolling or do you seriously not realize that the "get the ball rolling asap" means ON the green on the fly ? i.e. taking any rough and fringe OUT of the equation ?
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#39 North Butte

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:19 PM

I seriously think if someone means "fly the ball onto the green" then that's what they should say, rather than saying "get the ball rolling asap". I think flying a ball onto the green is exactly the opposite of rolling it.

And I seriously use the putter from well off the green rather than flying it onto the green, whenever possible.

So no, I'm not trolling. I'm discussing how I play the game and I'm pointing out that statements are being made which do not, in fact, correspond to how most people choose clubs.

It's like that inane thing about "use your putting stroke with a 7-iron". When what they actually DO is kind of like their putting stroke but without using their putting grip, with the shaft leaning forward, with their hands lower, standing farther from the ball and maybe they usse a little hip rotation as well as shoulder rocking. If it's that different than a putting stroke, why say "use your putting stroke"?

Likewise if the "Rule of 12" means only from a level lie to a level green, under some assumed standard lie and green firmness, using a particular ball and some particular set of clubs then it's a "Rule" that never, ever actually applies in the real world.

Edited by North Butte, 12 February 2018 - 12:20 PM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#40 North Butte

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:22 PM

How would you distinguish between someone using the "Rule of 12" and then adjusting it based on their feel for the situation vs. someone who never heard of "Rule of 12" and simply chooses the shot based on their feel for the situation?

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#41 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:47 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

How would you distinguish between someone using the "Rule of 12" and then adjusting it based on their feel for the situation vs. someone who never heard of "Rule of 12" and simply chooses the shot based on their feel for the situation?

Why is it important to make that distinction?  That is in NO way germane to the discussion at hand, which is about the relative merits of using multiple clubs vs one club for chipping.

There are lots of good players who chip with multiple clubs who have probably never heard of the Rule of 12, and have no need for it; that has absolute DEAD ZERO to do with the fact that they are chipping with multiple clubs, and find it easier to judge roll than carry.  And, of course, there are lots of good players who use one club and manipulate it to play different shots; they choose to vary the carry distance accordingly to get the overall distance that they desire.  THAT is the discussion, not the necessity of formally naming a method in which multiple clubs are used vs. not naming the method.

And really, the true issue at hand is about what is easier for players who aren't as good and don't have as much time or opportunity or inclination to practice their short game as would be optimal.  I think the VAST majority of teaching pros would advocate, when PUTTING FROM THE FRINGE IS NOT POSSIBLE, CHIPPING THE BALL ONTO THE GREEN and allowing it to roll out, rather than trying to carry it longer distances.  That's pretty simple and easily understood, I think, and in no way depends on naming the method vs not naming it.

But the advantage of using the NAME is simply that it gives a reference to watch videos like the one Manzella did that I gave the link for earlier, and to discuss it with other golfers and instructors.  Whether or not any individual does or does not call it that or do it exactly that way while actually using multiple clubs is completely, 100% irrelevant.

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#42 North Butte

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:53 PM

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

I think the VAST majority of teaching pros would advocate, when PUTTING FROM THE FRINGE IS NOT POSSIBLE, CHIPPING THE BALL ONTO THE GREEN and allowing it to roll out, rather than trying to carry it longer distances.  

I completely agree with this well stated conclusion.

What I completely disagree with is obfuscating such a clear and (to my view) obvious bit of advice with all sorts of gobblegook "Rules" and flat out misleading statements such as "get the ball rolling as soon as possible".

Some people (like me) roll the ball on the ground to an extreme degree, even when it probably doesn't even make sense. Others fling the ball 50 feet in the air with a lob wedge to an extreme degree, even when it doesn't make sense.

But in between there's the eminently sensible idea of pitching or chipping the ball onto the short grass then having it run up close to the hole. What would be useful is some advice as to how to develop the judgement and technique required to do that well under the variety of situations encountered on the course. Not facile sayings about "get the ball rolling asap" or "use your putting stroke with a 7-iron".

TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER: Yes, it's just practice and developing judgement and touch.

Edited by North Butte, 12 February 2018 - 12:55 PM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#43 MrJones

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:24 PM

How are either of those phrases misleading?

It's all about personal preference and perception. I've heard the phrase "get the ball rolling as soon as possible" in relation to chipping and immediately understood the idea. You're the first person I've ever known that's openly questioned it or misunderstood it.


I did find irony in you using the word obfuscating in a sentence talking about making advice "clear".  :)
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#44 dlygrisse

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:35 PM

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 11 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you were playing on a flat piece of AstroTurf the rule of 12 might work. Instead learn to hit low/middle/high shots and visualize the shot and your landing spot.

I hit a lot of shots with a 58 but will use a PW and a 7 iron if I want a lot of run.

Ok, once more...

The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.

And when you say that you mostly use a 58, but will use a PW or 7i, you are doing exactly the same thing as the Rule of 12, except in a LESS "formal" way.

As to whether or not the Rule of 12 "works", other than on a "flat piece of Astroturf", I think you're stuck in rigid thinking about how it's used.  Paul Runyan devised it decades ago, and it's been used by pros and amateurs alike ever since.  I was taught the method over 25 years ago, and it's taught by teaching pros all over the world.  You adjust the club selection for many factors other than just the ratio of distance, but there is no doubt that it is a time-tested, valid way to approach chipping.

Take a look at Brian Manzella's video; it might answer some of your questions.  And you might note that he is NOT chipping on a flat piece of Astroturf in the video. :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig

If it works for you great, in my mind it would never work.  The short game for me is more an art than a science.
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#45 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:48 PM

View Postdlygrisse, on 12 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 11 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you were playing on a flat piece of AstroTurf the rule of 12 might work. Instead learn to hit low/middle/high shots and visualize the shot and your landing spot.

I hit a lot of shots with a 58 but will use a PW and a 7 iron if I want a lot of run.

Ok, once more...

The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.

And when you say that you mostly use a 58, but will use a PW or 7i, you are doing exactly the same thing as the Rule of 12, except in a LESS "formal" way.

As to whether or not the Rule of 12 "works", other than on a "flat piece of Astroturf", I think you're stuck in rigid thinking about how it's used.  Paul Runyan devised it decades ago, and it's been used by pros and amateurs alike ever since.  I was taught the method over 25 years ago, and it's taught by teaching pros all over the world.  You adjust the club selection for many factors other than just the ratio of distance, but there is no doubt that it is a time-tested, valid way to approach chipping.

Take a look at Brian Manzella's video; it might answer some of your questions.  And you might note that he is NOT chipping on a flat piece of Astroturf in the video. :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig

If it works for you great, in my mind it would never work.  The short game for me is more an art than a science.

The distinction between art and science, with all due respect, is not a real thing.  There isn't a single shot in golf, ever, that doesn't combine the two.  EVER...

When you choose a club from 150 yds, and factor in the wind, the slope, hazards, etc., is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?  I'm assuming that you don't ALWAYS hit the same club from 150, but I'm also assuming that you have a pretty good idea how far a well-struck shot with each club will fly; it would be an odd way to play to NOT know that, right?

When you use your PW and hit a knockdown to keep the ball under the wind, but factor in some roll out accordingly, is that "art" or "science"?  You make adjustments to ball position, length of the backswing, height of the follow thru, and so on to execute that shot; those are known techniques that require practice, but also feel and touch.  Is that "art" or "science"?  Where is that line?

So if you know that with a standard chipping stroke from a good lie on a flat shot, your gap wedge has an approximately equal amount of carry and roll, and you then adjust your club selection to get more or less roll, is THAT "art" or "science"?  Where is THAT line?

When I pick a club with which to chip, and I intend to carry it TO A SPOT on the green, and I do mean A SPOT, and then watch it roll the rest of the way on a line like a putt would be rolling, I've judged my lie, picked a landing spot, read what would be the part of the shot that is like a putt, and then picked a club that I think will do all of those things for me, just like you did back in the fairway when you pulled your club for the 150 yd. shot, except even moreso.

So is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?


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#46 Gap22

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:19 PM

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

View PostCicero, on 12 February 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

I’m not a good player; this is exacerbated by the fact that I haven’t been able to play much over the previous few years.  In spite of that, I was able to implement the rule of 12 (or something similar) on the course, without practice.  Once you understand the concept, the adjustments to uphill/downhill are not hard at all.  

It basically comes down to landing the ball on about the same spot relative to the edge of the green (ended up being about 3’ for me), and picking the club that would allow the rollout to reach the hole.  That, combined with the simplicity of using a putting stroke, had me chipping better than I ever had before that round.  

Over the course of a round, you probably won’t use too many clubs.  And if you’re like me, you’ll probably gravitate to a favorite chipping club or two.  But for me, having an idea of the carry-to-roll ratio has improved my chipping to the point that I’m actually confident over chips, because they’ve basically become like putting.  For someone who doesn’t have the opportunity to get out much, that’s huge.

It’s not for everybody (nothing is).  But in practice, it is a lot simpler that it sounds “on paper”.

Good post; thank you!  It IS a simple way to chip; that's actually the biggest attraction of it.  It takes LESS practice time, not more.

I'm always puzzled by the folks who talk about being able to judge carry accurately (vs. roll) by "feel" by constantly adjusting their swing with one club, because that SHOULD mean that they would chip from the green instead of putting, right?  I mean, it's either easier or it's not, right?  But nobody ever answers that question when I ask it...

I use multiple clubs to chip with.  That being said, judging carry by feel is akin to playing underhand catch with someone.  You only have one hand/arm to toss the ball with, and you change your 'swing' depending on distance.  Do you have problems getting the ball to the person you are playing catch with? Doubtful.  It's a very similar motion and act in my mind.  Pick a spot and use the club to toss the ball to that spot.  This does not address club selection/preference which, in my mind, is totally up to the individual, but it is in response to your feel question.  And, no, I would not chip from the green.
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#47 bluedot

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 05:38 PM

View PostGap22, on 12 February 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

View PostCicero, on 12 February 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

I’m not a good player; this is exacerbated by the fact that I haven’t been able to play much over the previous few years.  In spite of that, I was able to implement the rule of 12 (or something similar) on the course, without practice.  Once you understand the concept, the adjustments to uphill/downhill are not hard at all.  

It basically comes down to landing the ball on about the same spot relative to the edge of the green (ended up being about 3’ for me), and picking the club that would allow the rollout to reach the hole.  That, combined with the simplicity of using a putting stroke, had me chipping better than I ever had before that round.  

Over the course of a round, you probably won’t use too many clubs.  And if you’re like me, you’ll probably gravitate to a favorite chipping club or two.  But for me, having an idea of the carry-to-roll ratio has improved my chipping to the point that I’m actually confident over chips, because they’ve basically become like putting.  For someone who doesn’t have the opportunity to get out much, that’s huge.

It’s not for everybody (nothing is).  But in practice, it is a lot simpler that it sounds “on paper”.

Good post; thank you!  It IS a simple way to chip; that's actually the biggest attraction of it.  It takes LESS practice time, not more.

I'm always puzzled by the folks who talk about being able to judge carry accurately (vs. roll) by "feel" by constantly adjusting their swing with one club, because that SHOULD mean that they would chip from the green instead of putting, right?  I mean, it's either easier or it's not, right?  But nobody ever answers that question when I ask it...

I use multiple clubs to chip with.  That being said, judging carry by feel is akin to playing underhand catch with someone.  You only have one hand/arm to toss the ball with, and you change your 'swing' depending on distance.  Do you have problems getting the ball to the person you are playing catch with? Doubtful.  It's a very similar motion and act in my mind.  Pick a spot and use the club to toss the ball to that spot.  This does not address club selection/preference which, in my mind, is totally up to the individual, but it is in response to your feel question.  And, no, I would not chip from the green.

I'm not sure that I understand your point, at least relative to this discussion or the question that I asked.  The question was directed at those who argue that it is easier to judge and control carry distances than roll, which is not you.  Those who make the argument that it's easier for them to judge carry than roll still putt when they're on the green, which is completely contrary to what they are claiming about chipping.  Somehow, being in the fringe changes everything for them, but they can't ever explain WHY.

I like your analogy of the underhanded toss, though a two-handed motion with the ground intervening is at least somewhat more complex than that, plus the target is NOT a person who can move their hands significantly to catch the ball if I make a less-than=accurate toss, but rather a fixed hole in the ground.  But in any event, no matter what method of chipping one uses, the length and speed of the chipping motion has to be judged and adjusted for every shot; they're all a little bit different.

But we agree that a shorter toss is easier to judge and control than a longer toss, right?  And so the goal becomes a short, accurate toss to a FIXED SPOT just onto the green, followed by a roll to the hole like a putt.  How much roll governs the club selection, whether you call it art, science, the Rule of 12, or magic.

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#48 Cicero

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:45 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:


It's like that inane thing about "use your putting stroke with a 7-iron". When what they actually DO is kind of like their putting stroke but without using their putting grip, with the shaft leaning forward, with their hands lower, standing farther from the ball and maybe they usse a little hip rotation as well as shoulder rocking. If it's that different than a putting stroke, why say "use your putting stroke"?

.

I personally use an actual putting grip, setup, and putting stroke, with the hands high (so the club is a little toe down) when I chip.  It’s literally putting with an iron for me.  I’ve found it so much easier than having a specific chipping stroke and setup.

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#49 596

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:52 PM

View Postnsxguy, on 12 February 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

i basically putt from everywhere there's not a bunker or water in the way. if you seriously mean to "get the ball rolling as soon as possible" that is putter, not an iron.

Are you just trolling or do you seriously not realize that the "get the ball rolling asap" means ON the green on the fly ? i.e. taking any rough and fringe OUT of the equation ?

I play with no less then 3 guys that will putt anywhere from 15 yards from the green.  1 of them is deadly accurate and the others are good at it.  I cringe every time he pulls a putter from the approach.  Its a sure up and down for him.  Our greens are mostly pedestal greens.  You either putt it or fly it with a lofted wedge from below the slope.   Using a 7 iron, 8 iron and trying to bump it up the slope can result in disaster.  I used to to that until I moved here and HAD to learn the lofted pitch even from a few yards from the green.  Once I'm on top of the pedestal I will go with the least lofted iron I can use to get the ball rolling.  I use 6 iron to gap wedge for chipping depending on distance to the hole.

BTW - I'm terrible with a putter from off the green, anywhere, even from 12" on the fringe I'm chipping, not putting.  Everyone is different.

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#50 Barfolomew

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:19 PM

I've been experimenting recently with which club to chip 8, 9, pw, gap, lob and difference with them and its kinda tough to decide on 8, 9 or PW when running it cause I'd like to always use the higher lofted PW as you can play it further from the edge of green and you get used to 1 club but the 8 iron is so much more accurate as it it similar to putting...so experiment continues!  But I do love the 8 iron cause I can use it on the green almost as good as a putter...

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#51 Jackal

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:31 PM

I thought  rolling as soon as possible  meant  'Use whatever means to get/fly  it on the green. Once on the putting  surface have it rolling as soon as you can.'
It seems all the chipping help in magazines say "It's  easier to bowl it to the hole, than to try and SWISH  it into the hole."

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#52 Conjohnson

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:19 PM

Just depends on what shot you want to hit. If your struggling around the greens, of course taking a lower lofted club and hitting a bump nd run is probably your best option. Using a 9, ball will have less air time and more roll time and so forth.


1/2 air time, 1/2 roll time = PW

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#53 nsxguy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:58 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

I seriously think if someone means "fly the ball onto the green" then that's what they should say, rather than saying "get the ball rolling asap". I think flying a ball onto the green is exactly the opposite of rolling it.

And I seriously use the putter from well off the green rather than flying it onto the green, whenever possible.

So no, I'm not trolling. I'm discussing how I play the game and I'm pointing out that statements are being made which do not, in fact, correspond to how most people choose clubs.

It's like that inane thing about "use your putting stroke with a 7-iron". When what they actually DO is kind of like their putting stroke but without using their putting grip, with the shaft leaning forward, with their hands lower, standing farther from the ball and maybe they usse a little hip rotation as well as shoulder rocking. If it's that different than a putting stroke, why say "use your putting stroke"?

Likewise if the "Rule of 12" means only from a level lie to a level green, under some assumed standard lie and green firmness, using a particular ball and some particular set of clubs then it's a "Rule" that never, ever actually applies in the real world.

So then you need everything spelled out for you and written literally ? With all your vast knowledge (and not just golf related) ? Who knew ???

And I'll help you out with that 7 iron chip as well. The "chip like you putt" is meant to imply little-to-no shaft lean (as opposed to more significant shaft lean by many (most ?) chippers of the golf ball) and, as you mention, rocking the shoulders and keeping your arms and more importantly your hands OUT of the chip. IN point of fact my chipping has greatly improved over the last couple of years by the "rocking the shoulders" part even though I still use a fair bit of shaft lean.

As for the Rule of 12 I think bluedot has spelled it out for you quite well. Some people are all feel, some are very mechanical and most are a combination of both. The Rule of 12 works best for those golfers who need a guideline to judging air and ground distances. As you should have seen by now the "Rule of 12" is NOT meant to be taken literally. Hence your "confusion" ? Once they get the feel for that their judgement, just as figuring out the wind, etc on a full shot, now comes into play for slope and for the journey to the hole.
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#54 nsxguy

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:27 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 February 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

I think the VAST majority of teaching pros would advocate, when PUTTING FROM THE FRINGE IS NOT POSSIBLE, CHIPPING THE BALL ONTO THE GREEN and allowing it to roll out, rather than trying to carry it longer distances.  

Some people (like me) roll the ball on the ground to an extreme degree, even when it probably doesn't even make sense. Others fling the ball 50 feet in the air with a lob wedge to an extreme degree, even when it doesn't make sense.

Methinks you've spotted the  a problem,,,,,,,,,, :taunt:

Quote

But in between there's the eminently sensible idea of pitching or chipping the ball onto the short grass then having it run up close to the hole. What would be useful is some advice as to how to develop the judgement and technique required to do that well under the variety of situations encountered on the course. Not facile sayings about "get the ball rolling asap" or "use your putting stroke with a 7-iron".


And a possible solution - practice. ;)


View PostGap22, on 12 February 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

I use multiple clubs to chip with.  That being said, judging carry by feel is akin to playing underhand catch with someone.  You only have one hand/arm to toss the ball with, and you change your 'swing' depending on distance.  Do you have problems getting the ball to the person you are playing catch with? Doubtful.  It's a very similar motion and act in my mind.  Pick a spot and use the club to toss the ball to that spot.  This does not address club selection/preference which, in my mind, is totally up to the individual, but it is in response to your feel question.  And, no, I would not chip from the green.

As the for has already explained, it is easier to toss a ball accurately 5 feet or 50 feet ? Right the fist time.

If I lined up 5 chipping baskets, the first one 10 feet from you and each subsequent one 5 feet further from the previous one, which one(s) would you be likely to chip the most balls into ?


View Post596, on 12 February 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

I play with no less then 3 guys that will putt anywhere from 15 yards from the green.  1 of them is deadly accurate and the others are good at it.  I cringe every time he pulls a putter from the approach.  Its a sure up and down for him.  Our greens are mostly pedestal greens.  You either putt it or fly it with a lofted wedge from below the slope.   Using a 7 iron, 8 iron and trying to bump it up the slope can result in disaster.  I used to to that until I moved here and HAD to learn the lofted pitch even from a few yards from the green.  Once I'm on top of the pedestal I will go with the least lofted iron I can use to get the ball rolling.  I use 6 iron to gap wedge for chipping depending on distance to the hole.

BTW - I'm terrible with a putter from off the green, anywhere, even from 12" on the fringe I'm chipping, not putting.  Everyone is different.

You're from Florida, yes ? Don't you play on Bermuda grass ? :o

I'm from the northeast originally and the only Bermuda anybody up there's ever heard of is a few hundred miles east in the Atlantic.

Up north, for a long time I'd putt from as much as 10 feet or so off the green if the ground was reasonably smooth. Further if the ball was sitting on hard pan or similar and a chip was a risky proposition. But now that I'm in South Florida I learned pretty quickly NOT to putt from anywhere except on the green.

Bermuda grass is sticky and *****ly and pretty much any Cermuda over green height can send the ball off in most any direction and I haven't been able to find any way to judge what the ball will do on the green once it gets there (IF it gets there). Even chipping can be a bit problematic, even off of fringe high grass as even brushing the grass lightly before contact with the ball can cause a problem And out of rough high Bermuda ??? :russian_roulette: (but that's another story).

I got really sick of hitting a good (roughly) 25 foot putt including about 3 feet of fringe and having it travel only 18 feet !!! AND off line.

So unless I have (literally) 4 or 5 inches or less of fringe to go through and/or the hole is less than 10 feet away, I am NOT putting that ball. And if that fringe is nasty looking I may even chip that one (4 inches or so) as well.

Edited by nsxguy, 12 February 2018 - 11:29 PM.

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#55 dlygrisse

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:19 AM

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 12 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 11 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you were playing on a flat piece of AstroTurf the rule of 12 might work. Instead learn to hit low/middle/high shots and visualize the shot and your landing spot.

I hit a lot of shots with a 58 but will use a PW and a 7 iron if I want a lot of run.

Ok, once more...

The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.

And when you say that you mostly use a 58, but will use a PW or 7i, you are doing exactly the same thing as the Rule of 12, except in a LESS "formal" way.

As to whether or not the Rule of 12 "works", other than on a "flat piece of Astroturf", I think you're stuck in rigid thinking about how it's used.  Paul Runyan devised it decades ago, and it's been used by pros and amateurs alike ever since.  I was taught the method over 25 years ago, and it's taught by teaching pros all over the world.  You adjust the club selection for many factors other than just the ratio of distance, but there is no doubt that it is a time-tested, valid way to approach chipping.

Take a look at Brian Manzella's video; it might answer some of your questions.  And you might note that he is NOT chipping on a flat piece of Astroturf in the video. :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig

If it works for you great, in my mind it would never work.  The short game for me is more an art than a science.

The distinction between art and science, with all due respect, is not a real thing.  There isn't a single shot in golf, ever, that doesn't combine the two.  EVER...

When you choose a club from 150 yds, and factor in the wind, the slope, hazards, etc., is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?  I'm assuming that you don't ALWAYS hit the same club from 150, but I'm also assuming that you have a pretty good idea how far a well-struck shot with each club will fly; it would be an odd way to play to NOT know that, right?

When you use your PW and hit a knockdown to keep the ball under the wind, but factor in some roll out accordingly, is that "art" or "science"?  You make adjustments to ball position, length of the backswing, height of the follow thru, and so on to execute that shot; those are known techniques that require practice, but also feel and touch.  Is that "art" or "science"?  Where is that line?

So if you know that with a standard chipping stroke from a good lie on a flat shot, your gap wedge has an approximately equal amount of carry and roll, and you then adjust your club selection to get more or less roll, is THAT "art" or "science"?  Where is THAT line?

When I pick a club with which to chip, and I intend to carry it TO A SPOT on the green, and I do mean A SPOT, and then watch it roll the rest of the way on a line like a putt would be rolling, I've judged my lie, picked a landing spot, read what would be the part of the shot that is like a putt, and then picked a club that I think will do all of those things for me, just like you did back in the fairway when you pulled your club for the 150 yd. shot, except even moreso.

So is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?

But by doing what you describe you aren’t following the rule of 12. Using different clubs based on the lie violates the rules.

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#56 nsxguy

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:39 AM

View Postdlygrisse, on 13 February 2018 - 12:19 AM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 12 February 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 12 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 11 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you were playing on a flat piece of AstroTurf the rule of 12 might work. Instead learn to hit low/middle/high shots and visualize the shot and your landing spot.

I hit a lot of shots with a 58 but will use a PW and a 7 iron if I want a lot of run.

Ok, once more...

The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.

And when you say that you mostly use a 58, but will use a PW or 7i, you are doing exactly the same thing as the Rule of 12, except in a LESS "formal" way.

As to whether or not the Rule of 12 "works", other than on a "flat piece of Astroturf", I think you're stuck in rigid thinking about how it's used.  Paul Runyan devised it decades ago, and it's been used by pros and amateurs alike ever since.  I was taught the method over 25 years ago, and it's taught by teaching pros all over the world.  You adjust the club selection for many factors other than just the ratio of distance, but there is no doubt that it is a time-tested, valid way to approach chipping.

Take a look at Brian Manzella's video; it might answer some of your questions.  And you might note that he is NOT chipping on a flat piece of Astroturf in the video. :)

https://www.youtube....h?v=OTCpkYqF8Ig

If it works for you great, in my mind it would never work.  The short game for me is more an art than a science.

The distinction between art and science, with all due respect, is not a real thing.  There isn't a single shot in golf, ever, that doesn't combine the two.  EVER...

When you choose a club from 150 yds, and factor in the wind, the slope, hazards, etc., is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?  I'm assuming that you don't ALWAYS hit the same club from 150, but I'm also assuming that you have a pretty good idea how far a well-struck shot with each club will fly; it would be an odd way to play to NOT know that, right?

When you use your PW and hit a knockdown to keep the ball under the wind, but factor in some roll out accordingly, is that "art" or "science"?  You make adjustments to ball position, length of the backswing, height of the follow thru, and so on to execute that shot; those are known techniques that require practice, but also feel and touch.  Is that "art" or "science"?  Where is that line?

So if you know that with a standard chipping stroke from a good lie on a flat shot, your gap wedge has an approximately equal amount of carry and roll, and you then adjust your club selection to get more or less roll, is THAT "art" or "science"?  Where is THAT line?

When I pick a club with which to chip, and I intend to carry it TO A SPOT on the green, and I do mean A SPOT, and then watch it roll the rest of the way on a line like a putt would be rolling, I've judged my lie, picked a landing spot, read what would be the part of the shot that is like a putt, and then picked a club that I think will do all of those things for me, just like you did back in the fairway when you pulled your club for the 150 yd. shot, except even moreso.

So is that "art" or "science"?  Where's the line?

But by doing what you describe you aren’t following the rule of 12. Using different clubs based on the lie violates the rules.

What part of, which you yourself quoted BTW, "The Rule of 12 is a guideline ONLY, and in that regard only a more "organized" way of deciding how far to carry the ball and how much rollout there will be.  You still have to visualize the shot, the landing spot, the rollout, the break; all of that.", is unclear to you ?
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#57 sirparalot

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:06 AM

I used the rule of 12 for a bit and it was a good guideline.  It became a bit cumbersome for me however to walk a putt determine the ratio then grab a club and chip (I can get very technical and obsess over these types of things).  This became especially tedious in a golf cart so I went back to pretty much 60 degree for everything.  My scrambling stat is the biggest area of improvement for my game (like I said I get technical) and after recently improved putting thanks to a new putting aid I decided it was time to go back to using more of the green in my chipping.  I am not using the rule of 12 however and I am just trying to feel it and eyeball it so I can select clubs from my cart and go.  My goal is to land the ball a couple of yards on the green and let it run from there and I pick the club based on initial look trying to just see it and feel it.  Most of my pitching where I have some green to work with has been GW-9i and along with my improved putting I am seeing a nice improvement in my scrambling % (10% improvement over LY and getting better each week).  The shorter stroke has definitely improved the quality of my chips as well.  My goal now is to not get bogged down in the details and continue to see, feel it and hit it.  If I can keep my scrambling percent north of 35% for the year thats equal to just under a 2 stroke improvement in my game per round on average that will be huge for my game.

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#58 dap

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:14 AM

Lots of ways to get it done in the short game as long as you don't hold up play and it doesn't add more complications to an already quite complicated game. I don't want to add more work and process to the game. I prefer to keep things simple and try to use one club for chipping unless I absolutely need to hit a lob shot. I like to use PW because it is low lofted enough to be quite forgiving but high lofted enough for most chip and run situations. I don't worry how far I carry onto the green as long as I make it on to the green. It could be one yard or five. I'm only concerned with speed, not where I land the ball.. By using one club I find it easier to dial in the correct speed than if I were chipping every time with different clubs but do whatever works for you.

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#59 North Butte

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 06:45 AM

So we should use a Rule that never actually applies, in order to get the ball rolling as soon as possible except not right away but instead after we fly it through the air onto the green. And they say golf is complicated!

P.S. all we need now is a Rule for pacing off putts and taking the putt back 2 inches for every 3 paces, that will greatly simplify lag putting distance control

Edited by North Butte, 13 February 2018 - 06:52 AM.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#60 TheCityGame

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:18 AM

If you go find a good chipping green, with tight pins, weird slopes, 5 yard chips, 40 yard chips, downhills, uphills, chips over bunkers, etc AND you spent hours and hours and hours and hours there, you will answer all these questions on your own. The answer is in the dirt, as someone once said.

Maybe you don't like using an 8 iron, but you like closing the face on a PW. Maybe you like your 60º/07º on lies from the rough, but not on THIS SHOT because you sense you might go under it, so you prefer opening the 54º/11º. Maybe you're just standing over the ball going, "I know the book says this is a 9 iron, but I hit a nice chip with my 54º on hole 1, and it just FEELS RIGHT to me right now." Maybe this shot looks like it should be a soft-traj lobber but, you just KNOW in your soul that with that stance and lie you can hit a little shut-down pincher that is going to check hard. And no rule, or internet poster, or book is going to describe to you which shot is best in that situation.

We're people, not machines.

That said, in terms of club choice. . .I do think that some golfers sort of have a natural "swing length" they feel good with on chips. . .the "right" place to bring a club back to and transition forward without feeling like you're getting long, or cutting it off. I know I do, and that dictates what club I choose and where I land the ball. If you have a "stock feel" like that, it might be useful to hit a variety of clubs with that swing and see how the ball reacts. Or maybe you don't have a natural swing length.

You want "good hands"? You want "feel"? You want to be know as the guy who can get up and down from a trash can? The answer is not whether you're a guy who gets the ball rolling, or flies it there. The answer is loving chipping and spending tons of practice time at a challenging green.

The last thing I'll say about chipping. . .bad feel with great contact beats great feel with bad contact any day. You make good contact, it's going to go somewhere near the hole. No one's feel is so bad that they're going to hit a 20 yard chip 40 yards if they make good contact. But, if you lay the sod, or catch the edge, you can whip an 9 yard chip over the back of the green.

Ping G25 10.5º
RBZ Stage 2 4W 17º
Sauce : tour
Cobra f6 Hybrid
Mizuno JPX-900 Forged 4I-GW
Vokey 54º/14º F-grind
Vokey 60º/12º M-grind
TM Ghost Spider Si 32

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