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Working the ball: Where does it start, where does it end?


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#1 MysteryV

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 02:34 PM

For quite a while I've wondered how most folks work the ball.

When I watch players like Rory hit a draw, it looks like he lines up at the target, and hits WAY out on the ball, which eventually comes back to his target.

While watching the Skill Code last night, it seemed as though Cameron advocated lining up ~20 degrees right of target, and swinging along your target line with a slightly closed face, and creating a ball flight that ends up left of your target line.

I'm curious what you all do, and what you believe most tour pros do as their "stock" draw.  Does it start way right of their foot-line and come back, or does it start down their foot line and work left "behind" them.  

How about Fades?

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#2 davep043

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 02:51 PM

Cameron is teaching in accordance with what we currently know about ball flight.  Your clubface orientation determines (mostly) the line the ball starts on, and your swing path determines the curve.  Lots of people use different feels or images, but his seem the simplest.  Set your alignment well right of your actual target,  aim the clubface a little left of your "toe line", but still right of the target.  Then swing along your "toe line", and return the club to the same orientation as you had at address.  The ball will start where the face is aimed, and curve left.  This way you're really not manipulating anything with your swing, just your setup.  Fade is the reverse.
On the other hand, I'm a pretty decent player, and I don't work the ball unless there's no other choice.  I get a lot better dispersion hitting my normal shot, no matter where the flag is, no matter what the fairway shape.

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#3 Quick Bucket

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 03:14 PM

The clubface is the trail hand, it rules and the path serves.

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#4 MysteryV

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 04:19 PM

Dave - very well written post.  The one outstanding questions that I'm curious about are:

1) What percentage of pros start the ball way to the right and bring it back to their toe-line versus those who start it down their toe-line and curve it away from that line
2) What folks here do primarily

I've been curious about this for a long time as on TV, it often looks as tho tour pros start is WAY WAY right and bring it back (which I realize could be the case, but camera angles certainly play into that as well).
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#5 Rasser75

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:33 AM

Take a look here...

https://m.youtube.co...e&v=SKcD7IjbhE8


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#6 randyj

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 11:33 AM

I think majority of pros might adjust their stance just slightly. As you have to remember they’re typically not hitting banana draws or rainbow fades. They have a slight bit of tail one way or another.

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#7 davep043

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 03:23 PM

 Rasser75, on 07 February 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

The Mickelson video is a little misleading, to me.  He says to aim your feet where you want it to start, and your club where you want it to finish.  Say the flag is directly behind a tree, you would aim your toe-line to one side of the tree, and directly at the tree with your clubface.  If you swing along your "toe-line" and return the face to its original orientation, your shot will start pretty much AT the tree.  Not good.  Phil's description is a traditional one, but I bet in reality he either aims his clubface wide of the target at address, or manipulates his swing and clubface alignment during his swing.  At some point he says the right thing, the ball starts where the clubface is aiming, but his set-up and swing advice certainly doesn't show that he really understands that.

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#8 Cicero

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:02 PM

 davep043, on 07 February 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

 Rasser75, on 07 February 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

The Mickelson video is a little misleading, to me.  He says to aim your feet where you want it to start, and your club where you want it to finish.  Say the flag is directly behind a tree, you would aim your toe-line to one side of the tree, and directly at the tree with your clubface.  If you swing along your "toe-line" and return the face to its original orientation, your shot will start pretty much AT the tree.  Not good.  Phil's description is a traditional one, but I bet in reality he either aims his clubface wide of the target at address, or manipulates his swing and clubface alignment during his swing.  At some point he says the right thing, the ball starts where the clubface is aiming, but his set-up and swing advice certainly doesn't show that he really understands that.

A lot of guys still move the ball the traditional way, like this.  I’m guessing they must do something subconsciously to get the flight they want, and have the ball move toward the target.



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#9 Nard_S

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:12 PM

I believe in aliens & bigfoot and old ball flight laws.  :)

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#10 DavePelz4

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:16 PM

When I'm working the ball it starts straight down the middle and usually ends up in the parking lot on the right.

Or the pond on the left.

So I guess that means I can work the ball both ways.


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#11 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:43 PM

You have to be careful using the toe line. Some have a path that mirrors their toe line and some don't. It's best to know the relationship between the two FOR YOU, then make adjustments from there.

As many have mentioned, curvature comes from a differential between path and face. Once you know where your path is in relation to your stance, you can adjust your stance and clubface to get the shot you want. Personally, I first decide how much I want the ball to curve and take the grip that will give me that. Then, I decide the line I want the ball to start on and that is where I want the clubface aiming. Finally, I adjust my stance so that the clubface is aiming on my intended start line and let 'er go. All of that will work fine until you get to my age where your damn path varies from day to day and your reliable fade becomes a dead pull OB!

I love this game, but it drives me crazy!!

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#12 Ogden51

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 02:40 AM

Push draws/Pull Fades.
Moving back towards the target and never moving by it. The old slight-pull draw can be pretty inconsistent distance as it involves a shut face rather than your typical open face draw.

I struggle to hit consistently good fades, but have a nice draw I'm more than happy to play majority of my golf with.

In saying all of this, there's many ways to get around a course and I guess it is what works for you

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#13 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:54 PM

 Ogden51, on 10 February 2018 - 02:40 AM, said:

Push draws/Pull Fades.
Moving back towards the target and never moving by it. The old slight-pull draw can be pretty inconsistent distance as it involves a shut face rather than your typical open face draw.

I struggle to hit consistently good fades, but have a nice draw I'm more than happy to play majority of my golf with.

In saying all of this, there's many ways to get around a course and I guess it is what works for you

For any newbs here, Ogden51 is using Trackman Terminology in his post. With Trackman, the target line is a line going from your ball to the flag. "Open" is anything pointing right of that line (righty golfer) and "Closed" is anything pointing left of that line. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this terminology as long as everyone knows what the heck we're talking about.

However, confusion rears it's ugly head when someone is taking their grip on the club and their teacher says "close the face a little". In this phrase, they are referring to the clubface relationship to the golfers BODY. In the Mickelson video several posts back, he says he opens or closes the face some. He is again, referring to the clubface/body relationship.  He then aims his body so that the curve brings the ball back to the intended target. Obviously, he has the face "Trackman Open" on the draw and "Trackman Closed" on the fade. The NBFLs tell us this is the case.

So, if you plan to learn to shape your shots in a forum such as this, MAKE SURE you know which terms are being used in the discussion or none of it will make sense.

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