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Really disturbing SS trend


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#1 KC4441

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:36 PM

So about 6 years ago when I got fitted at the Taylormade Lab here in KC i had an average SS of 129.  I knew I had slowed down a bit with more control, lessons, etc.  This spring when I had some indoor lessons on flightscope I was at about 114-115 which I was perfectly OK with because I was hitting so many more fairways and striking the ball better.  Now last weekend I got fitted at Club Champion and was down to 107-108, and even today I had another indoor lesson and was even lower.  

The only thing I can really think of is my left shoulder has good days and bad days.  It feels weak sometimes, but never pain.  My wife said I maybe subconsciously protecting it.  I do my theraband and other strengthening exercises, i've added some more stretches I have found, but any other advice or insight would be welcome.  

I attempting to make an appointment with a shoulder specialist so hopefully that can lend some insight as well.  To lose this much swing speed so quickly is a little odd in my opinion, but may point to a bigger issue, which is what I am afraid of..

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#2 bogeypro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:09 PM

Your legs and core power the swing.  Sounds more like you are having sequencing issues.
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#3 KC4441

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:03 PM

Well my coach did fix some things as well.  Iíll be interested to do some rehab along with the drills he gave me.  My legs have been more tired lately as Iíve been upping my workouts so it may have been some bad timing as well.  Thanks for the insight
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#4 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:26 PM

You also have to consider the possibility that your coach is turning you into a slower swinger.

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#5 CallawayLefty

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:01 PM

Having played with you, I can tell you that there's no chance in heck you're swinging 108.  I don't care what you changed.  The more I read stuff like this and have my own experiences, the more I start to think launch monitors are more hit and miss than we've been led to believe.


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#6 fried121

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:05 AM

I was just going to say, depending what launch monitor/equipment/conditions were used your swing speed may not be accurately represented.  The more important question will be whether your losing distance once you can get back outdoors and hit some balls.

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#7 Pigems

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:16 AM

What were your Ball speeds in all of these cases? Swing speed doesn’t mean much, it’s ball speed that really matters :)
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#8 KC4441

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:26 AM

View PostPigems, on 13 January 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

What were your Ball speeds in all of these cases? Swing speed doesn’t mean much, it’s ball speed that really matters :)

Ball speed was down as well, at Club Champion I was not swinging the Driver good at all. It may have had something to do with the 150+ iron swings I already made..  

I should know shoulders, I was a college pitcher, so I know it isn't a torn rotator cuff, I pass all of those test.  The weakness seems to be an inflammation thing.  Hopefully I can see the specialist and that is what the problem is.

In the mean time I will keep doing my strengthening exercises, stretch it a ton, and try not to worry about the numbers until the spring.

Any other insights are definitely welcome.
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#9 KC4441

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:27 AM

View PostCallawayLefty, on 12 January 2018 - 11:01 PM, said:

Having played with you, I can tell you that there's no chance in heck you're swinging 108.  I don't care what you changed.  The more I read stuff like this and have my own experiences, the more I start to think launch monitors are more hit and miss than we've been led to believe.

Thanks Lefty, I was worried if we play again you'd be hitting it past me...  :)
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#10 Pigems

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:29 AM

The only other thing I can think of is if you’re trying to make any swing changes it may be slowing your swing down a bit? I know it did for me when I was trying to make changes last year until the changes were properly engrained and I didn’t have to think about them any more.

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#11 stryper

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:12 AM

Take swing speed out of the equation for the moment...what are you seeing on the course?
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#12 KC4441

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:24 AM

View Poststryper, on 13 January 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

Take swing speed out of the equation for the moment...what are you seeing on the course?

This past year was my best driving year yet.  Probably averaged around 10/14 fairways hit.  Distance was off and on good (going back to the good and bad shoulder days).  I know I lost some toward the end of the year do to some real inefficiency in my swing, and that will be fixed soon.  I think my biggest worry was the weakness portion of it.  Crazy talk, but maybe I need a break??  No that can't be it.
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#13 CallawayLefty

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:08 AM

View PostKC4441, on 13 January 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

View PostCallawayLefty, on 12 January 2018 - 11:01 PM, said:

Having played with you, I can tell you that there's no chance in heck you're swinging 108.  I don't care what you changed.  The more I read stuff like this and have my own experiences, the more I start to think launch monitors are more hit and miss than we've been led to believe.

Thanks Lefty, I was worried if we play again you'd be hitting it past me...  :)

Well fear not.  Iíve entered my late 30s, so I lose 5 yards per year now :)

In all honesty, Iíve had some weird launch monitor sessions lately.  More specifically there have been wild spin inconsistencies on basically the same iron set up and ball.  But I do think that these things should be considered more ďinstructiveĒ than ďdefinitive.Ē   Sounds like the shoulder isnít helping things, but the idea that youíve lost 20 mph just doesnít seem right.  

I could be wrong, but believe that launch monitors a lot of times can only approximate clubhead speed and angle of attack based on the launch condition of the ball itself.  Meaning if you had a lower ball speed because of a bad strike, it might associate it with a drop in club speed that didnít actually occur.  Thatís just one thought.

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#14 bogeypro

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:53 AM

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#15 airjammer

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:32 PM

Wouldnít surprise me if you have a torn labrum. No reason not to get your shoulder checked out.


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#16 MtlJeff

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:47 PM

Swinging 115+ (especially 120+) is pretty elite and something most people need to keep on top of, practicing, etc.

It's like throwing a 90mph fastball, you can't just change a couple of things, or take a couple of months off and then just do it again no problem. Or running a 5 minute mile etc...youve gotta be consistently doing it or you'll lose a bit

Mechanics changes, small injury, or just taking a bit off consistently to hit more fairways, no guarantee you'll get back up there right away just because you try again. At least you know you have the potential to do it if you dedicate yourself to getting back there

Edited by MtlJeff, 13 January 2018 - 12:47 PM.

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#17 Man_O_War

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 01:08 PM

View PostKC4441, on 12 January 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

So about 6 years ago when I got fitted at the Taylormade Lab here in KC i had an average SS of 129.  I knew I had slowed down a bit with more control, lessons, etc.  This spring when I had some indoor lessons on flightscope I was at about 114-115 which I was perfectly OK with because I was hitting so many more fairways and striking the ball better.  Now last weekend I got fitted at Club Champion and was down to 107-108, and even today I had another indoor lesson and was even lower.  

The only thing I can really think of is my left shoulder has good days and bad days.  It feels weak sometimes, but never pain.  My wife said I maybe subconsciously protecting it.  I do my theraband and other strengthening exercises, i've added some more stretches I have found, but any other advice or insight would be welcome.  

I attempting to make an appointment with a shoulder specialist so hopefully that can lend some insight as well.  To lose this much swing speed so quickly is a little odd in my opinion, but may point to a bigger issue, which is what I am afraid of..

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#18 KC4441

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:08 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 13 January 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

Swinging 115+ (especially 120+) is pretty elite and something most people need to keep on top of, practicing, etc.

It's like throwing a 90mph fastball, you can't just change a couple of things, or take a couple of months off and then just do it again no problem. Or running a 5 minute mile etc...youve gotta be consistently doing it or you'll lose a bit

Mechanics changes, small injury, or just taking a bit off consistently to hit more fairways, no guarantee you'll get back up there right away just because you try again. At least you know you have the potential to do it if you dedicate yourself to getting back there

Thanks for the insight.  I know there is no way I need or want to get back up to where I was, just worried it was a sign of something I was overlooking.
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#19 CallawayLefty

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:36 PM

Just FYI I was on a crummy monitor at golf galaxy today.  Said I was swinging a 7 iron about 77 Mph on average.  Two recent trackman sessions at other locations had me between 90 and 95.  I think I had one swing break 80 at golf galaxy.  

Donít trust these things.

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#20 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 10:51 AM

View PostCallawayLefty, on 13 January 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

Just FYI I was on a crummy monitor at golf galaxy today.  Said I was swinging a 7 iron about 77 Mph on average.  Two recent trackman sessions at other locations had me between 90 and 95.  I think I had one swing break 80 at golf galaxy.  

Donít trust these things.

You can trust the ones that actually measure clubhead speed.  GC2 without HMT uses a fixed smash factor and doesnít actually measure clubhead speed.  You likely were hitting t set to driver so it used 1.45 as smash which spits out a low clubhead speed.  

Club Champion is directly measuring clubhead speed.  Iíd be WAY more inclined to believe the 129mph was inaccurate and the last two fittings are way more accurate.   Varying from 107-114 depending on day, especially with injuries is completely normal.


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#21 CallawayLefty

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 03:45 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 14 January 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

View PostCallawayLefty, on 13 January 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

Just FYI I was on a crummy monitor at golf galaxy today.  Said I was swinging a 7 iron about 77 Mph on average.  Two recent trackman sessions at other locations had me between 90 and 95.  I think I had one swing break 80 at golf galaxy.  

Donít trust these things.


You can trust the ones that actually measure clubhead speed.  GC2 without HMT uses a fixed smash factor and doesnít actually measure clubhead speed.  You likely were hitting t set to driver so it used 1.45 as smash which spits out a low clubhead speed.  

Club Champion is directly measuring clubhead speed.  Iíd be WAY more inclined to believe the 129mph was inaccurate and the last two fittings are way more accurate.   Varying from 107-114 depending on day, especially with injuries is completely normal.

Yeah thatís probably right.  I think 95% of the time itís user error, but I think user errors occur a ton of the time.  

Do you think trackman is very accurate on indoor hitting bays?  Somewhere along the way I feel like I heard that trackman is only fully accurate outdoors.

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#22 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 03:59 PM

If you honestly think you’ve lost 22 mph in 6 years Without any major injury I’d say there is a terrible problem here that requires more investigation.

I just turned 50.  I Averaged 113 as a 25 year old teaching pro. Im out of the business but I still play quite a bit and I average 108 mph 25 years later with a bad left knee and early onset arthritis in my hands. If I’ve only lost 5 mph in 25 years I’d say 22 mph in 6 years is very disturbing and needs to be addressed.


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#23 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

View PostCallawayLefty, on 14 January 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 14 January 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

View PostCallawayLefty, on 13 January 2018 - 10:36 PM, said:

Just FYI I was on a crummy monitor at golf galaxy today.  Said I was swinging a 7 iron about 77 Mph on average.  Two recent trackman sessions at other locations had me between 90 and 95.  I think I had one swing break 80 at golf galaxy.  

Donít trust these things.


You can trust the ones that actually measure clubhead speed.  GC2 without HMT uses a fixed smash factor and doesnít actually measure clubhead speed.  You likely were hitting t set to driver so it used 1.45 as smash which spits out a low clubhead speed.  

Club Champion is directly measuring clubhead speed.  Iíd be WAY more inclined to believe the 129mph was inaccurate and the last two fittings are way more accurate.   Varying from 107-114 depending on day, especially with injuries is completely normal.

Yeah thatís probably right.  I think 95% of the time itís user error, but I think user errors occur a ton of the time.  

Do you think trackman is very accurate on indoor hitting bays?  Somewhere along the way I feel like I heard that trackman is only fully accurate outdoors.

Radar gives very good numbers if using metallic sticks.  The club data is good indoors, the spin rates are the only parameter that can get off inside.  But setup correctly indoors it matches GCQuad within 100-200 rpms

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#24 MtlJeff

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:37 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 14 January 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

If you honestly think you’ve lost 22 mph in 6 years Without any major injury I’d say there is a terrible problem here that requires more investigation.

I just turned 50.  I Averaged 113 as a 25 year old teaching pro. Im out of the business but I still play quite a bit and I average 108 mph 25 years later with a bad left knee and early onset arthritis in my hands. If I’ve only lost 5 mph in 25 years I’d say 22 mph in 6 years is very disturbing and needs to be addressed.

It's not always a "terrible problem" haha but these things can happen. I lost 14 mph in under 5 years between the ages of 30-34. It was a combination of changing my swing a bit, not really "going after" shots because i was struggling with my confidence at some points, and doing more competitive running which ate away at my muscle.

In my late 20's i was clocked at 118mph on a reliable monitor, 4-5yrs later when i was fit at Callaway my high SS was 104mph.

In the past year i've worked at getting it back up by exercising and getting some of my confidence back after a great ballstriking season. And recently i got my SS measured at 114mph

I think once you get up to "elite" levels of SS, as i mentioned earlier it's really something you need to work to maintain. Unless you are doing something else (like if you're a pro hockey player or something) that keeps you in that kind of shape
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#25 KC4441

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:26 PM

Thank you to everyone for the insights.  I am going to get my shoulder checked out for sure.  Today it felt really good and my ball speeds were back up on my buddies simulator, so I will need to keep my strengthening exercises and stretching going and work more diligently on my mechanics.

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#26 Z1ggy16

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:39 PM

Did anything else change dynamically, like you AoA, swing path, etc as well?



Also, I'd recommend a PT check you out because I've been down these types of paths. I'd almost guarantee an ortho Dr is going to just go, "mehhhh could be this this or that, but lets get you an MRI."

Save yourself some money and get a PT to test out your muscle strengths, range of motion, etc. They could possibly tell you right off the bat if anything is wrong before you go spend $1k on an MRI that might not show up with anything. Try to go someplace where they have a perosn who specializes in golf, or at least sports involving swinging sticks (baseball, hockey, tennis).

I say this because 1) my wife is a PT and she could diagnose an injury very easily if it's obvious without needing an MRI machine. Sometimes one is needed if it's so bad that you'd require surgery though (so Dr can tell where to go in) and 2) because I've gone down this road with ortho Dr's, paid the money... nothing is really wrong and I ended up in PT anyway, but tossed away $1200 bucks in the process by going in for MRI.
WITB
Driver:  Posted Image16' M2 | Tensei Blue 60
3W:   Posted Image F8 Black | 2KXV Blue 70   
3Hy: Posted Image JPX-850 | Tensei Blue 80
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5-P:   Posted Image P790 | Modus3 120
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Sand: Posted Image SM6 54* | Modus3 115 Wedge
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