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In-Plane Coupling and Moment of Force


53 replies to this topic

#1 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:47 AM

Curious if anybody wants to go laymanís terms on this one......??

https://vimeo.com/158856998


And thereís this teaser as well....

https://t.co/FqdE5XI6Z0

Edited by PutterKilledTheDream, 12 January 2018 - 01:52 AM.


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#2 Krt22

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:34 AM

What..the..hell.

There are moments and there are forces, forces (exerted on levers) can cause moments. There is no such thing as "moment of force" , "coupling", or the presence of either of these fabricated terms "in-plane". The golf swing is a summation of forces (and thus moments) in 3 dimensions . Some times they are additive and sometimes they occur along the same vector, but this crack pot essentially made up a bunch of terms in an effort to make it seem like this bogus teaching narrative has real substance

With that being said I could not watch more than 2 minutes of each clip

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#3 CallawayLefty

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:32 AM

See that flag over yonder?  Keep hitting it as close to that as you can until it goes into the hole at the bottom of the flag.  Try to accomplish this as quickly as possible.  

The end.

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#4 ezpz

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:52 AM

When I gazed upon this mighty title I immediately associated it with the maestro, thank god he graced us with his presence in the 2nd video. These guys have figured out that besides from hack players, other golf pro's are a great market to sell information too and at high prices as well. But when you watch clips of these guys teaching even elite level players they use the most basic concepts you can think off.

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#5 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:02 AM

View PostKrt22, on 12 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

What..the..hell.

There are moments and there are forces, forces (exerted on levers) can cause moments. There is no such thing as "moment of force" , "coupling", or the presence of either of these fabricated terms "in-plane". The golf swing is a summation of forces (and thus moments) in 3 dimensions . Some times they are additive and sometimes they occur along the same vector, but this crack pot essentially made up a bunch of terms in an effort to make it seem like this bogus teaching narrative has real substance

With that being said I could not watch more than 2 minutes of each clip

There certainly can be a "moment that is associated with a linear force". So calling that the 'moment of force' doesn't strike me as particularly wrong.

I kind of "lightly listened to" this thing and what I took away was that you cannot accelerate the clubhead by flipping your hands through the ball (where your two hands can create a couple). But you can accelerate the clubhead through the ball with turn.

Sounds about right to me.

dave

ps. As I understand things, this guy chose the grip as the frame of reference. Since this is an accelerating FoR, centrifugal force is actually real (in that FoR). That should bring on some fun discussions :-)


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#6 Hit 'Em Straight

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:19 AM

In-plane coupling - I believe that's how you join the mile high club.

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#7 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

View PostKrt22, on 12 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

What..the..hell.

There are moments and there are forces, forces (exerted on levers) can cause moments. There is no such thing as "moment of force" , "coupling", or the presence of either of these fabricated terms "in-plane". The golf swing is a summation of forces (and thus moments) in 3 dimensions . Some times they are additive and sometimes they occur along the same vector, but this crack pot essentially made up a bunch of terms in an effort to make it seem like this bogus teaching narrative has real substance

With that being said I could not watch more than 2 minutes of each clip

Moment of force and couple are not made up terms at all. Moment of force is another word for torque. In this case it is used to differentiate between itself and the net torque. Couple is also not a made up term. dont call one of the top biomechanics phds in the world a crackpot when you can't do better than get basic info wrong.

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#8 LeoLeo99

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:01 AM

View Postezpz, on 12 January 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

When I gazed upon this mighty title I immediately associated it with the maestro, thank god he graced us with his presence in the 2nd video. These guys have figured out that besides from hack players, other golf pro's are a great market to sell information too and at high prices as well. But when you watch clips of these guys teaching even elite level players they use the most basic concepts you can think off.

I watched a video of an instructor that teaches PGA pros.  He said, in the video, that he would share a tip with the public that he tells his PGA professional clients: if you want to hit the ball lower, move it back in your stance.

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#9 virtuoso

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

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#10 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM

So when Sasho says “ inverse dynamics” he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction I’m twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. That’s where the disconnect happens.





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#11 davep043

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:21 AM

When I go back to my first year engineering dynamic courses, the words moment and couple return from the murky depths.  A couple is a pair of equal forces that act on a body (the golf club, for instance) in parallel (but not coincident) lines, producing a moment.  A moment tends to cause something to rotate, but not move (translate).  A couple, equal forces, opposite direction, no net force, only a net moment.  Two parallel lines define a single plane, so that's a little redundant, unless your specifying that this couple acts along the intended plane of the swing, producing rotation in that same plane.  Most of the little bit that I watched seemed reasonable accurate, and its probably a good thing for golf instructors to understand what forces are actually being applied to the club at any point in the swing.  I don't necessarily think that most students to know this, it seems like it would only be confusing to most of us.

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#12 davep043

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:23 AM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says “ inverse dynamics” he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction I’m twisting the grip or shaft?
By "inverse dynamics", I believe he means that he's using the movement of the club to deduce what kinds of forces were required to produce that movement.  Generally, dynamics uses forces to calculate the resulting movement, he's working the problem backwards.

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#13 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says ď inverse dynamicsĒ he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction Iím twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. Thatís where the disconnect happens.

As explained by another poster...that isn't what inverse dynamics means.

How does understanding the kinetics lead to better swing mechanics? Simply, Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel. Understanding what forces and torques need to be applied can help an instructor understand what a player needs to feel in order to change something.

13

#14 FatReed

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:58 AM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says “ inverse dynamics” he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction I’m twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. That’s where the disconnect happens.

As explained by another poster...that isn't what inverse dynamics means.

How does understanding the kinetics lead to better swing mechanics? Simply, Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel. Understanding what forces and torques need to be applied can help an instructor understand what a player needs to feel in order to change something.

That’s not how it works . . . that’s not how it will ever work . . .and that’s why modern golf instruction is in the dark ages.

Motion cannot be taught; it can only be learned.

“FORCE DEFORMS” Frozen Divots

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#15 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:11 PM

View PostFatReed, on 12 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says ď inverse dynamicsĒ he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction Iím twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. Thatís where the disconnect happens.

As explained by another poster...that isn't what inverse dynamics means.

How does understanding the kinetics lead to better swing mechanics? Simply, Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel. Understanding what forces and torques need to be applied can help an instructor understand what a player needs to feel in order to change something.

Thatís not how it works . . . thatís not how it will ever work . . .and thatís why modern golf instruction is in the dark ages.

Motion cannot be taught; it can only be learned.

ďFORCE DEFORMSĒ Frozen Divots

Serious question, how good are you? This isn't meant to be a demeaning question. You might very well be a +5. Completely agree that there is a difference in teaching and learning but to say a motion can't be taught is just nonsense.


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#16 bogeypro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:19 PM

Yep.
Callaway Rogue SZ 9* w/Evenflow 65g x
Callaway Rogue SZ 15* w/HZRDUS yellow 75g s
Callaway X Forged UT 21* w/Project X 6.0
Callaway X Forged (2018) 4-pw w/Project X 6.0
Callaway MD Forged 50/54/58
Toulon Memphis putter

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#17 FatReed

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:26 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostFatReed, on 12 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says “ inverse dynamics” he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction I’m twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. That’s where the disconnect happens.

As explained by another poster...that isn't what inverse dynamics means.

How does understanding the kinetics lead to better swing mechanics? Simply, Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel. Understanding what forces and torques need to be applied can help an instructor understand what a player needs to feel in order to change something.

That’s not how it works . . . that’s not how it will ever work . . .and that’s why modern golf instruction is in the dark ages.

Motion cannot be taught; it can only be learned.

“FORCE DEFORMS” Frozen Divots

Serious question, how good are you? This isn't meant to be a demeaning question. You might very well be a +5. Completely agree that there is a difference in teaching and learning but to say a motion can't be taught is just nonsense.

I don’t consider your question demeaning, but I do consider it completely irrelevant. . . just as my knowing you are a fantastic golfer is irrelevant.

You don’t answer to me, only to those who are paying you to help them improve. If you are convinced you are on the right track, and your customers satisfied with service you provide, then keep up the good work.

17

#18 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:36 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel.

Not really.   You might be thinking of Kinesiology?

Kinetics is just the very general study of (classical) motion and it's general causes.   Really synonymous with general "Dynamics".

Kinematics is the study the motion of points and bodies w/o considering mass (and therefore not considering forces and torques).  But it does look at velocity and acceleration.

So Kinematics is what you see happening  or maybe a description of what you want to happen.  Kinetics is studying why it happened or what caused it to happen or how to achieve a desired motion.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 January 2018 - 12:41 PM.


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#19 moehogan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:38 PM

View Postvirtuoso, on 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

And if each hand twists the handle in an OPPOSITE direction from the other, rotation will be eliminated or slowed and reduced if one torque is slightly greater than the other.  Grip pressures are key in this regard and desired calibrations to produce different flights come through a little experimentation and some practice.

Might sound a bit complicated, but my experience is that it's a relatively easy and quick implementation for an advanced player.

19

#20 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:51 PM

View PostFatReed, on 12 January 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostFatReed, on 12 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 12 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

So when Sasho says ď inverse dynamicsĒ he means that the direction of the force or torque both my hands combined together apply to the club is moving basically opposite of the direction Iím twisting the grip or shaft?

If I hold a club directly out in front of me, and I rotate the club wide open from address to shaft parallel..... the net force is downward some direction while the net couple is pointing behind me some direction?

Now explain how scientifically understanding these forces translates into improved swing mechanics. Thatís where the disconnect happens.

As explained by another poster...that isn't what inverse dynamics means.

How does understanding the kinetics lead to better swing mechanics? Simply, Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel. Understanding what forces and torques need to be applied can help an instructor understand what a player needs to feel in order to change something.

Thatís not how it works . . . thatís not how it will ever work . . .and thatís why modern golf instruction is in the dark ages.

Motion cannot be taught; it can only be learned.

ďFORCE DEFORMSĒ Frozen Divots

Serious question, how good are you? This isn't meant to be a demeaning question. You might very well be a +5. Completely agree that there is a difference in teaching and learning but to say a motion can't be taught is just nonsense.

I donít consider your question demeaning, but I do consider it completely irrelevant. . . just as my knowing you are a fantastic golfer is irrelevant.

You donít answer to me, only to those who are paying you to help them improve. If you are convinced you are on the right track, and your customers satisfied with service you provide, then keep up the good work.

It's not irrelevant. If you have not achieved a high level of proficiency it seems somewhat strange for you to lecture or pontificate on how to become proficient.

I am not answering to you. I am discussing with you. You say me and many in my profession are "in the dark ages". That's a pretty big charge. Especially if you can't back it up with a better way.


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#21 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:53 PM

View PostStuart G., on 12 January 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

Kinematics is what you see, and kinetics is what you feel.

Not really.   You might be thinking of Kinesiology?

Kinetics is just the very general study of (classical) motion and it's general causes.   Really synonymous with general "Dynamics".

Kinematics is the study the motion of points and bodies w/o considering mass (and therefore not considering forces and torques).  But it does look at velocity and acceleration.

So Kinematics is what you see happening  or maybe a description of what you want to happen.  Kinetics is studying why it happened or what caused it to happen or how to achieve a desired motion.

I understand kinetics is just the forces and torques but kinetics are what a player is going to feel in the golf swing. A player is going to feel those forces and torques.

21

#22 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:00 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

I understand kinetics is just the forces and torques but kinetics are what a player is going to feel in the golf swing. A player is going to feel those forces and torques.

It's more then just the forces.  It includes understanding mass distributions and inertial considerations, how all the pieces are connected and, how each joint 'works', etc...   And while they might feel a few of the forces, considering all the muscles that are firing and mass moving around during the swing, tendons and ligaments stretching and holding, they will never feel anything but an extremely small percentage of them and even the ones they do feel will not be at any level of accuracy.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 January 2018 - 01:01 PM.


22

#23 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:02 PM

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postvirtuoso, on 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

And if each hand twists the handle in an OPPOSITE direction from the other, rotation will be eliminated or slowed and reduced if one torque is slightly greater than the other.  Grip pressures are key in this regard and desired calibrations to produce different flights come through a little experimentation and some practice.

Might sound a bit complicated, but my experience is that it's a relatively easy and quick implementation for an advanced player.

Each hand can push in an opposite direction and you can get a zero net force and torque if the club doesn't move.  This is called the closed loop and why you can't tell which hand is applying what torque. That's why we have to use the midnpoint of the hands as a reference point.

23

#24 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:04 PM

View PostStuart G., on 12 January 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

I understand kinetics is just the forces and torques but kinetics are what a player is going to feel in the golf swing. A player is going to feel those forces and torques.

It's more then just the forces.  It includes understanding mass distributions and inertial considerations, how all the pieces are connected and, how each joint 'works', etc...   And while they might feel a few of the forces, considering all the muscles that are firing and mass moving around during the swing, tendons and ligaments stretching and holding, they will never feel anything but an extremely small percentage of them and even the ones they do feel will not be at any level of accuracy.

The kinetics being measured have nothing to do with muscles, joints, etc. it is simply the force and torque applied at the mid hands point of the club.

24

#25 moehogan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:06 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postvirtuoso, on 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

And if each hand twists the handle in an OPPOSITE direction from the other, rotation will be eliminated or slowed and reduced if one torque is slightly greater than the other.  Grip pressures are key in this regard and desired calibrations to produce different flights come through a little experimentation and some practice.

Might sound a bit complicated, but my experience is that it's a relatively easy and quick implementation for an advanced player.

Each hand can push in an opposite direction and you can get a zero net force and torque if the club doesn't move.  This is called the closed loop and why you can't tell which hand is applying what torque. That's why we have to use the midnpoint of the hands as a reference point.

Twist, not push.


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#26 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:13 PM

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postvirtuoso, on 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

And if each hand twists the handle in an OPPOSITE direction from the other, rotation will be eliminated or slowed and reduced if one torque is slightly greater than the other.  Grip pressures are key in this regard and desired calibrations to produce different flights come through a little experimentation and some practice.

Might sound a bit complicated, but my experience is that it's a relatively easy and quick implementation for an advanced player.

Each hand can push in an opposite direction and you can get a zero net force and torque if the club doesn't move.  This is called the closed loop and why you can't tell which hand is applying what torque. That's why we have to use the midnpoint of the hands as a reference point.

Twist, not push.

Semantics. You could do either they are just happening in different planes of motion. The rest of my post stands. Zero movement would be zero net force and zero net torque.

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#27 Krt22

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:15 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostKrt22, on 12 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

What..the..hell.

There are moments and there are forces, forces (exerted on levers) can cause moments. There is no such thing as "moment of force" , "coupling", or the presence of either of these fabricated terms "in-plane". The golf swing is a summation of forces (and thus moments) in 3 dimensions . Some times they are additive and sometimes they occur along the same vector, but this crack pot essentially made up a bunch of terms in an effort to make it seem like this bogus teaching narrative has real substance

With that being said I could not watch more than 2 minutes of each clip

Moment of force and couple are not made up terms at all. Moment of force is another word for torque. In this case it is used to differentiate between itself and the net torque. Couple is also not a made up term. dont call one of the top biomechanics phds in the world a crackpot when you can't do better than get basic info wrong.

Perhaps I am just old now, but im my 16 years of work and studies I simply have not used these terms.  We have moments, forces, and torques and it was perplexing why he used the units for torque and called it a moment of force. Why not just call it the universally known term...torque?

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#28 Fort Worth Pro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:23 PM

View PostKrt22, on 12 January 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostKrt22, on 12 January 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

What..the..hell.

There are moments and there are forces, forces (exerted on levers) can cause moments. There is no such thing as "moment of force" , "coupling", or the presence of either of these fabricated terms "in-plane". The golf swing is a summation of forces (and thus moments) in 3 dimensions . Some times they are additive and sometimes they occur along the same vector, but this crack pot essentially made up a bunch of terms in an effort to make it seem like this bogus teaching narrative has real substance

With that being said I could not watch more than 2 minutes of each clip

Moment of force and couple are not made up terms at all. Moment of force is another word for torque. In this case it is used to differentiate between itself and the net torque. Couple is also not a made up term. dont call one of the top biomechanics phds in the world a crackpot when you can't do better than get basic info wrong.

Perhaps I am just old now, but im my 16 years of work and studies I simply have not used these terms.  We have moments, forces, and torques and it was perplexing why he used the units for torque and called it a moment of force. Why not just call it the universally known term...torque?

Because there are multiple things being talked about  and he is separated them. Watch this video for a little background in how they are doing this.

https://vimeo.com/158419250

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#29 moehogan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:24 PM

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostFort Worth Pro, on 12 January 2018 - 01:02 PM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 12 January 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postvirtuoso, on 12 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Layman's terms:

Moment of force- You move the handle in a certain direction. The cg of the club will try to fall in line with the direction you are moving the handle. That can cause the club to move to a different location and rotate.

Couple- You can twist the handle with your hands. That causes the club to rotate.

The net result of both of these things describes how the golfer is swinging the club in a big circle around his body.

And if each hand twists the handle in an OPPOSITE direction from the other, rotation will be eliminated or slowed and reduced if one torque is slightly greater than the other.  Grip pressures are key in this regard and desired calibrations to produce different flights come through a little experimentation and some practice.

Might sound a bit complicated, but my experience is that it's a relatively easy and quick implementation for an advanced player.

Each hand can push in an opposite direction and you can get a zero net force and torque if the club doesn't move.  This is called the closed loop and why you can't tell which hand is applying what torque. That's why we have to use the midnpoint of the hands as a reference point.

Twist, not push.

Semantics. You could do either they are just happening in different planes of motion. The rest of my post stands. Zero movement would be zero net force and zero net torque.

Agreed.  Just calling out a specific technique.

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#30 bogeypro

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:24 PM

Wtf... is this a golf forum or engineering class?  Do you folks actually teach real golfers using terms like these?!

Edited by bogeypro, 12 January 2018 - 01:25 PM.

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