teeezer, on 14 January 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:
Blade hunter: For non cog systems (taylormade, srixon mizuno, cobra, ping) I think the grip alignment will not change approximately +/- 45° from standard setting GIVEN that the golfer sets the face back to square. Beyond 90° the logo will be too far off to adjust back to square. For example if you rotate the sleeve 180°, you have to turn your club upside down to get the grip back to original playing position.
As for how loft and face angle "can" be changed at the same time: a driver head can be tilted in many different axes. For example: more loft & open; more loft & closed ; less loft and open ; less loft and closed. The degrees by which both change can be different and doesn't have to correlate. To illustrate this take your hand and hold it vertically in a karate chop position. Now move it open and close it (like a door or fanning motion). Then rotate it like turning a door knob. No you can mix the opening and closing motion with a variety of the turning motion. These are all the different ways the club head could be adjusted. So referring to taylormades chart I believe that face angle and loft could be changed at the same time. But as stated by Wishon the adjustment systems are limited to what they can change and that's decided by the designers. The only way to get infinite combinations is to have a bendable hosel and the machine to bend it.
A little more actual science on adjustable hosels that Wishon didn't go into detail about: adjustable hosel systems work by making the hosel asymmetrical to the driver. They are oval shaped. So which you install the shaft in different settings and assuming that you return the shaft to a perpendicular position to the ground, that driver head will have rotated or vice versa. ( returning the driver head into original position will mean the shaft will have changed position). The best illustration I can think of is stacking skipping stones (fairly flat rocks). Since each Rock has a slightly different surface you have to orient them in a certain way to stack them in a balanced position. If you don't they are not balanced and slide off each other. The driver "bore" and hosel adaptor have uneven surfaces like the rocks. Depending on the setting it orients each in a different way. Hope that helps illustrate how it works.
here are some charts I refer to. I hope that in creating these charts and designing the adjustable system Taylormade physically measured the changes to confirm their design. I have been meaning to go through the process of confirming the system but I don't have access to a loft/lie/FA measuring device. If anyone wants to take on the job I think lots of people would appreciate it. Simply taking measurements of loft lie and FA at every adjustment increment would be insightful.
I understand all of what you have written, and thank you for a very thorough post.
That said, the analogy of one's wrist being able to move two different directions isn't exactly accurate, and, I think, shows the flaw in loft adjustments with club heads.
When you hold your wrist in the karate chop position, you can open it or close it (face angle), and you can change the angle up or down (lie angle); those "adjustments" are relative to the angles of the wrist and hand to the forearm, and are just like a golf club. But when you turn your hand to a palm up or palm down position, it is NOT the wrist that is moving, it's the bones of the forearm (shaft) that create that rotation. In the golf swing, for instance, our forearms rotate, not our wrists, despite what most golfers think. Similarly, while we all agree that you can change the face angle and/or lie angle of ANY club, we disagree about whether or not changing the angle at which the shaft inserts into the club head changes the loft. If you had only one bone in your forearm, like a golf club has only one shaft, you wouldn't be able to change the "loft" of your hand from the karate chop position, either.
Wishon's key point, with which I wholeheartedly agree, is that throughout the history of golf, the loft of a club head has ALWAYS been measured the same way; with the club soled and square, you measure the angle of the face relative to the ground. That had always been (and still is, of course) a fixed measurement, but now manufacturers are marketing clubs by defining loft in a completely different manner, i.e., "effective loft" IF the golfer can return the club to perfectly square position at impact from an initial open or closed position.
So IF, from a closed face position at address, I can deliver the club to the ball squarely (instead of closed), the club will effectively be a higher than stated loft. But, of course, most golfers can't do that consistently, so the face angle has a BIG impact on shot dispersion, while the concept of "effective loft" barely even shows up on Trackman, and makes little if any difference in play even when the club IS delivered squarely.
But it isn't good marketing to explain "effective loft" vs. "static loft" vs. face angle, so the manufacturers give us the short version and tell us that we are adjusting loft and leave it at that. When golfers, either thru a fitting process or trial-and-error, arrive at a setting that works for them, they attribute that to a degree or two of loft, which isn't what is happening at all. They are either taking one side of the course out of play thru an open or shut club face (skilled players), OR they have found a setting that compensates for a consistent swing flaw (less skilled players). It isn't the loft; it's the face angle.
I'll say it again; a degree of loft change, even it is happening, isn't especially significant to ball flight. A degree of face angle IS significant.
And one final note: I am a HUGE fan of adjustable clubs! I ditched my Ping G hybrids for Titleist hybrids for exactly that reason, and if there were adjustable irons, I'd buy those, too. But the reason I like adjustable clubs is because I can take the right side of the golf course more or less out of play, not because I can accidentally hit them a little higher or lower every now and then.