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Help Me Understand Loft Changes with Adjustable Drivers


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#1 andrade

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:18 PM

Do I understand this correctly?  As an example.......a Taylormade SLDR driver has a 10.5 degree loft.  Set in the neutral or square setting... the loft plays at 10.5 degrees.  If the setting is changed to -1.5, the face appears and sits more open ---- but of course the face of the head hasn't physically changed from 10.5 degrees----but to return the face to square----the strike must be closed 1.5 degrees to achieve a straight strike thus the player must close down the loft during the hit making the "effective loft" lower than the 10.5 degree head.

Is that the correct interpretation of how the loft is either lowered or increased depending on how you set it in relation to neutral?

Last question.......using the -1.5 setting......if the player DIDN'T close or shutdown the face during the hit but came into the ball open......the loft would remain 10.5 degrees at impact and the ball would go to the right?

Please help me understand.  Thank you in advance.


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#2 ncglfr

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:49 PM

View Postandrade, on 11 January 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

Do I understand this correctly?  As an example.......a Taylormade SLDR driver has a 10.5 degree loft.  Set in the neutral or square setting... the loft plays at 10.5 degrees.  If the setting is changed to -1.5, the face appears and sits more open ---- but of course the face of the head hasn't physically changed from 10.5 degrees----but to return the face to square----the strike must be closed 1.5 degrees to achieve a straight strike thus the player must close down the loft during the hit making the "effective loft" lower than the 10.5 degree head.

Is that the correct interpretation of how the loft is either lowered or increased depending on how you set it in relation to neutral?

Last question.......using the -1.5 setting......if the player DIDN'T close or shutdown the face during the hit but came into the ball open......the loft would remain 10.5 degrees at impact and the ball would go to the right?

Please help me understand.  Thank you in advance.

I think you have the basics...yes.  Remember the first Callaway adjustable drivers?  The had S O and C...square, open, and closed.  But what they found is golfers would make a manipulation, so they'd hit the C higher and the O lower (by delivering to square you're adding loft for the C and decreasing loft for the O).  So instead of opened and closed on the next iteration, they changed to adjustment system that they use now of changing loft and lie.

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#3 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:10 AM

View Postandrade, on 11 January 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

Do I understand this correctly?  As an example.......a Taylormade SLDR driver has a 10.5 degree loft.  Set in the neutral or square setting... the loft plays at 10.5 degrees.  If the setting is changed to -1.5, the face appears and sits more open ---- but of course the face of the head hasn't physically changed from 10.5 degrees----

Generally you are correct but maybe I can add a little different perspective that might help some folks.

It hasn't change relative to the sole of the head but It has changed relative to the shaft.   It's actually exactly the same as bending the lofts on your irons.  That's what actually causes the effective loft to change.  But unlike with irons, it also results in an open face IF one soles the club on the ground.   So yes, in the soled, open position, the measured loft will still be 10.5  (e.g. relative to the sole, loft hasn't change), and yes, when squared up (then the loft is measured relative to the shaft) then the effective loft has changed.


View Postandrade, on 11 January 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

Last question.......using the -1.5 setting......if the player DIDN'T close or shutdown the face during the hit but came into the ball open......the loft would remain 10.5 degrees at impact and the ball would go to the right?

If the path was down the target line and the face stayed open to the path, then yes, the ball would start right and slice.   However, if ones 'normal' swing has a tendency to hook, the open face can potentially help straighten out  the shot.

What happens between setup and impact is quite complex and varies significantly between different individuals.  It's best NOT to make any assumptions about what really will happen when the face angle is changed.   If you really want to know what will happen for your swing, the ONLY way to find out is to make the adjustments and go out and hit some balls.  Play around, try all the different settings, go from max open to max closed, hit 2-3 balls max per setting and see what happens.   More balls then that and you might find yourself trying to compensate with your swing for any changes.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 January 2018 - 05:12 AM.


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#4 stagolfer06

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:08 PM

Right at the top of the forum:

http://www.golfwrx.c...nks-tom-wishon/

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#5 bladehunter

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesnít  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?  I truly think itís a Farse.   And it deprived us of truly low lofted heads .  Used t be you could buy a 7.5 or 8.5 head.  Now itís nearly always tour only.  


Example.  Mizuno. Jpx900.   Had it a while back . Speeder 757x.  By al accounts low launch low spin shaft.  Take this head and adjust the loft all the way down to 7.5.  And on trackman the launch angle and spin wouldnít drop an ounce unless I purposefully teed it low and hit down on it.    How I wish All heads were made both adjustable and glued.

Edited by bladehunter, 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM.

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#6 augustgolf

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:52 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn’t  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?  I truly think it’s a Farse.   And it deprived us of truly low lofted heads .  Used t be you could buy a 7.5 or 8.5 head.  Now it’s nearly always tour only.  


Example.  Mizuno. Jpx900.   Had it a while back . Speeder 757x.  By al accounts low launch low spin shaft.  Take this head and adjust the loft all the way down to 7.5.  And on trackman the launch angle and spin wouldn’t drop an ounce unless I purposefully teed it low and hit down on it.    How I wish All heads were made both adjustable and glued.
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#7 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:46 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

And it deprived us of truly low lofted heads .  Used t be you could buy a 7.5 or 8.5 head.  Now it's nearly always tour only.  

That really has nothing to do with adjustable hosels.   It's the advent of lower spinning heads and more importantly, low spinning balls that has made those super low lofted heads obsolete - or at least reduced the customer base that might buy them to the point where there is no profit in mass production runs of those lofts.   Even going through the Pro WITB's, you only find a small percentage that are even using a 8.5* head and I couldn't find anyone using one less then that.  The majority use one in the range of 9-10.5.

Edited by Stuart G., 13 January 2018 - 04:50 AM.


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#8 bladehunter

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

Maybe so. I think itís probably a combo of both.  But that doesnít address the point I made aboot the loft not changing down to the advertised 7.5.   Iíve watched the videos. Read the pinned ad.  And I still donít. Believe that it changes actual loft.  Just face angle slightly.

Edited by bladehunter, 13 January 2018 - 09:56 AM.

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#9 Pigems

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:13 AM

When I’ve played with the loft settings on Callaway heads outside I definitely see a difference in ball flight, and I’ve had a bunch of the adjustable ones. I can’t speak for other companies though, I haven’t hit them outside.
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#10 cxx

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:31 AM

It's best to think of adjustable drivers as bending an iron, like Stuart said. Keeps everything simple. The manufacturers even removed the soles on some driver designs.


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#11 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:41 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

Maybe so. I think it's probably a combo of both.  But that doesn't address the point I made aboot the loft not changing down to the advertised 7.5.   I've watched the videos. Read the pinned ad.  And I still don't. Believe that it changes actual loft.  Just face angle slightly.

The effective loft does change (assuming a legit adapter sleeve) so if the ball flight doesn't in some way (either LA or left/right ball flight), then the problem is in the swing.  Either the dynamic loft isn't changing or the face impact location is over-riding the change.

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#12 Cwebb

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges

Edited by Cwebb, 13 January 2018 - 06:26 PM.


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#13 bladehunter

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges


I just disagree with this.  

I donít manipulate any club at address.  Not In a major way like your have to do to hold a Driver shut  or open .  As in irons or wedges I play naturally sit square without much manipulation.  Same for 3 wood.  Itís a few degrees open.  And thatís what my eye wants to see .  I choose s Driver the same way. If it wants to rotate too far either way on its on. Itís a no go.   Hovering a driver is a great way to hold tension in the hands and wrists.  At least for me.  And that equals a later than late release.    

Where the face starts has very little to do with where it ends up with Driver.  I guess I just donít see how it can be accurately measured that the loft actuallly changes.  I have a new Bridgestone Driver and it advertises face angle and lie angle adjustment only.   That seems to be a lot more honest way of describing it.   Iíve read and read on the subject and the synopsis of all Iíve seen is ď trust us. It works ď.  Which isnít very convincing.
Callaway Rogue 9.8 Tour issue Rogue Black 80TX  playing at 43 1/4
17 M1 14.5  Tour issue Graphite Design   AD DI 8X
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Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
Vokey Tour issue raw SM6   50 f  54  60 M  Modus 130S
Cameron GSS 1.5 009  Vertical stamp , tungsten sole weights

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#14 augustgolf

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:08 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges


I just disagree with this.  

I don't manipulate any club at address.  Not In a major way like your have to do to hold a Driver shut  or open .  As in irons or wedges I play naturally sit square without much manipulation.  Same for 3 wood.  It's a few degrees open.  And that's what my eye wants to see .  I choose s Driver the same way. If it wants to rotate too far either way on its on. It's a no go.   Hovering a driver is a great way to hold tension in the hands and wrists.  At least for me.  And that equals a later than late release.

Where the face starts has very little to do with where it ends up with Driver.  I guess I just don't see how it can be accurately measured that the loft actuallly changes.  I have a new Bridgestone Driver and it advertises face angle and lie angle adjustment only.   That seems to be a lot more honest way of describing it.   I've read and read on the subject and the synopsis of all I've seen is " trust us. It works ".  Which isn't very convincing.

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#15 e-man

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:40 PM

I think loft adjustments are a lot of smoke and mirrors.  First, I don't hover, so I'm out right off the bat. But even if I did hover, how could I possibly rotate the club to make sure that the face is absolutely dead center square at address?


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#16 Cwebb

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:42 PM

View Poste-man, on 13 January 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

I think loft adjustments are a lot of smoke and mirrors.  First, I don't hover, so I'm out right off the bat. But even if I did hover, how could I possibly rotate the club to make sure that the face is absolutely dead center square at address?

The same way we all do with our irons

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#17 Cwebb

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:45 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges


I just disagree with this.  

I don't manipulate any club at address.  Not In a major way like your have to do to hold a Driver shut  or open .  As in irons or wedges I play naturally sit square without much manipulation.  Same for 3 wood.  It's a few degrees open.  And that's what my eye wants to see .  I choose s Driver the same way. If it wants to rotate too far either way on its on. It's a no go.   Hovering a driver is a great way to hold tension in the hands and wrists.  At least for me.  And that equals a later than late release.

Where the face starts has very little to do with where it ends up with Driver.  I guess I just don't see how it can be accurately measured that the loft actuallly changes.  I have a new Bridgestone Driver and it advertises face angle and lie angle adjustment only.   That seems to be a lot more honest way of describing it.   I've read and read on the subject and the synopsis of all I've seen is " trust us. It works ".  Which isn't very convincing.

Then you're not trusting the tour players that have had their drivers/woods/hybrids bent for loft, for a long time, before adjustable hosels gained popularity.

I completely understand that you don't want to have to hold any driver much different than it wants to sit.  That's fine, since you can find what you want.....but it doesn't mean that adjusting or bending a hosel for loft, doesn't change the loft.  It does, just like it does for an iron

Edited by Cwebb, 13 January 2018 - 07:47 PM.


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#18 bladehunter

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:19 PM

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges


I just disagree with this.  

I don't manipulate any club at address.  Not In a major way like your have to do to hold a Driver shut  or open .  As in irons or wedges I play naturally sit square without much manipulation.  Same for 3 wood.  It's a few degrees open.  And that's what my eye wants to see .  I choose s Driver the same way. If it wants to rotate too far either way on its on. It's a no go.   Hovering a driver is a great way to hold tension in the hands and wrists.  At least for me.  And that equals a later than late release.

Where the face starts has very little to do with where it ends up with Driver.  I guess I just don't see how it can be accurately measured that the loft actuallly changes.  I have a new Bridgestone Driver and it advertises face angle and lie angle adjustment only.   That seems to be a lot more honest way of describing it.   I've read and read on the subject and the synopsis of all I've seen is " trust us. It works ".  Which isn't very convincing.

Then you're not trusting the tour players that have had their drivers/woods/hybrids bent for loft, for a long time, before adjustable hosels gained popularity.

I completely understand that you don't want to have to hold any driver much different than it wants to sit.  That's fine, since you can find what you want.....but it doesn't mean that adjusting or bending a hosel for loft, doesn't change the loft.  It does, just like it does for an iron


im not purposefully trying to be obtuse....BUT... i truly dont get that these are the same things.... In my pea brain bending an iron is done so that the shaft and grip remain the same as far as orientation to my hands.... bent forward or backward...NOT around.... i assume bending a driver is the same.... or would one have to regrip after a loft change? ( as in grip no longer aligns to face ?) ...

Now with adjustable hosels were going around the shafts perimeter ...and the grip does change positions each time.. This is where  i fail to see how its the same a bending a hosel...

ill preface this next statement/question by saying i am prone to dyslexic tendencies when it comes to order of things etc...so i maybe 180 degrees off

another thing that i cant get is how opening face angle creates less "loft"....   the bending an iron weak doesnt make it favor the right side it simply adds loft... youd think rotating a driver head open in your hands would be MORE loft..not less...

Edited by bladehunter, 13 January 2018 - 08:27 PM.

Callaway Rogue 9.8 Tour issue Rogue Black 80TX  playing at 43 1/4
17 M1 14.5  Tour issue Graphite Design   AD DI 8X
Bridgestone Tour B-XH 18 Graphite Design AD DI 105X
Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
Vokey Tour issue raw SM6   50 f  54  60 M  Modus 130S
Cameron GSS 1.5 009  Vertical stamp , tungsten sole weights

hows that for brand loyalty??

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#19 bluedot

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:39 PM

Assume for a moment that loft DOES change by a degree or two when you change the hosel setting.  The loft difference between two irons in your set is 4 or 5 degrees, so with a driver, you'd be talking about a change equal to 25% or less of the loft difference between an 8 iron and a 9 iron.  That's not very impressive, even if it's happening.  (And put me squarely in the camp of those that believe that the loft is NOT changing.)

But what IS significant is the change in the face angle.  Opening or closing the face by a degree or two has a much bigger impact on where the ball ends up than the same amount of change in loft; there's no way around that.  It helps good players take one side out of play, and it can help bad players sort of correct a default flaw.

There are lots of stories here from players who say, "I cranked the loft up (or down) a degree and I'm killing it now!"  But I think if you spend time on a Trackman, you'll find that launch angle changes are affected a lot by the stated loft, less by the shaft, and little if at all by hosel settings.  Dispersion, though, is another story.

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#20 bladehunter

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:56 PM

View Postbluedot, on 13 January 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Assume for a moment that loft DOES change by a degree or two when you change the hosel setting.  The loft difference between two irons in your set is 4 or 5 degrees, so with a driver, you'd be talking about a change equal to 25% or less of the loft difference between an 8 iron and a 9 iron.  That's not very impressive, even if it's happening.  (And put me squarely in the camp of those that believe that the loft is NOT changing.)

But what IS significant is the change in the face angle.  Opening or closing the face by a degree or two has a much bigger impact on where the ball ends up than the same amount of change in loft; there's no way around that.  It helps good players take one side out of play, and it can help bad players sort of correct a default flaw.

There are lots of stories here from players who say, "I cranked the loft up (or down) a degree and I'm killing it now!"  But I think if you spend time on a Trackman, you'll find that launch angle changes are affected a lot by the stated loft, less by the shaft, and little if at all by hosel settings.  Dispersion, though, is another story.


my findings exactly......adjustability does work for flight and dispersion ...ill agree on that ..weights etc change the flight...

im a very high spin player with capability of high speeds....  Im trying to find the balance of those 2 things and noticed while fooling around on trackman yesterday that a actual loft head from yesteryear of 7 degrees significantly dropped spin and launch angle and allowed more speed ... now of course it has a sweet spot the size of a pea....  but it shows me that 9-11 degrees of loft is helping cause the spin issue i see... its hard to even find a head retail that measures less than 9...most "8.5 " heads are 9.5 to 10 at least in actual loft... Ping will hand pick actual low loft  heads but most will not..

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#21 nitram

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:10 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

another thing that i cant get is how opening face angle creates less "loft"....   the bending an iron weak doesnt make it favor the right side it simply adds loft... youd think rotating a driver head open in your hands would be MORE loft..not less...

This has been my exact thoughts for the past 6 years.
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#22 Cwebb

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:48 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 13 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 January 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

I find this subject nauseating.  Is there anyone who really doesn't  sole their Driver ?  Not even for an instant before hovering ?always tour only.  


Many of us "touch" the ground with our drivers/woods, but don't let them rotate into wherever they want to sit on their own.  Do this by taking your grip with the face at whatever angle you want it, then lightly touch the turf with it.  Never allow any club to just sole wherever it wants....very few good players do this.  We need to "aim" the face with our grip, just like everyone has to do when hitting an iron.

If done this way, all loft adjustments (including putters) work just like bending irons/wedges


I just disagree with this.  

I don't manipulate any club at address.  Not In a major way like your have to do to hold a Driver shut  or open .  As in irons or wedges I play naturally sit square without much manipulation.  Same for 3 wood.  It's a few degrees open.  And that's what my eye wants to see .  I choose s Driver the same way. If it wants to rotate too far either way on its on. It's a no go.   Hovering a driver is a great way to hold tension in the hands and wrists.  At least for me.  And that equals a later than late release.

Where the face starts has very little to do with where it ends up with Driver.  I guess I just don't see how it can be accurately measured that the loft actuallly changes.  I have a new Bridgestone Driver and it advertises face angle and lie angle adjustment only.   That seems to be a lot more honest way of describing it.   I've read and read on the subject and the synopsis of all I've seen is " trust us. It works ".  Which isn't very convincing.

Then you're not trusting the tour players that have had their drivers/woods/hybrids bent for loft, for a long time, before adjustable hosels gained popularity.

I completely understand that you don't want to have to hold any driver much different than it wants to sit.  That's fine, since you can find what you want.....but it doesn't mean that adjusting or bending a hosel for loft, doesn't change the loft.  It does, just like it does for an iron


im not purposefully trying to be obtuse....BUT... i truly dont get that these are the same things.... In my pea brain bending an iron is done so that the shaft and grip remain the same as far as orientation to my hands.... bent forward or backward...NOT around.... i assume bending a driver is the same.... or would one have to regrip after a loft change? ( as in grip no longer aligns to face ?) ...

Now with adjustable hosels were going around the shafts perimeter ...and the grip does change positions each time.. This is where  i fail to see how its the same a bending a hosel...

ill preface this next statement/question by saying i am prone to dyslexic tendencies when it comes to order of things etc...so i maybe 180 degrees off

another thing that i cant get is how opening face angle creates less "loft"....   the bending an iron weak doesnt make it favor the right side it simply adds loft... youd think rotating a driver head open in your hands would be MORE loft..not less...

Without going into another long explanation, simply think of all clubs being held "square" in a bending unit.  If we bend or adjust the hosel of a driver to lower loft, while the face is being held square, the hosel moves in the same direction that it does when we bend an iron to lower loft

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#23 bladehunter

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM

So the grip alignment changes or not ?

Still don't see how bending a hosel changes actual loft and afterward soling the club matters not.  But adjusting one makes soling it impossible.  If it adjusted actual loft soling it wouldn't change anything.  Would it ?

as i understand it .... driver with face clamped square in the fixture... bending bar would attach  and bend hosel from front to rear to decrease loft.... not bending toe around towards rear center of the head with hosel staying in same spot ....yes?

Edited by bladehunter, 13 January 2018 - 10:18 PM.

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hows that for brand loyalty??

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#24 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:01 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

So the grip alignment changes or not ?

For Callaway adapter, no.  For Titleist, it does for some setting changes but not for others.   For the rest, yes, the grip alignment will change.

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

as i understand it .... driver with face clamped square in the fixture... bending bar would attach  and bend hosel from front to rear to decrease loft.

And the hossel adjustments do exactly the same thing if you look at the relationship between the shaft angle and the head.  Don't confuse the rotation of the adapter sleeve with the opening/closing of the face angle.  

If you really want to understand what's going on, the Callaway mechanism is actually a better one to look at then say the TM adapters.  Take the rings/cogs off and you can see how the shaft orientation can change.

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

... not bending toe around towards rear center of the head with hosel staying in same spot ....yes?

The opening and closing of the face angle isn't what was "bent".  It's just a consequence that occurs when soling the club after the adjustment.

Try this.  Take your driver, hold it with one hand in an address type position.  head soled and resting on the ground and face (roughly) toward the target.   Now, keeping the face square to the target (don't let it rotate), tilt the shaft toward the target, effectively reducing the loft.  The leading edge of the head is on the ground but the head is no longer soled - the tail is off the ground.   Now keeping the grip in the same position, relax the grip to let the club rotate back to a soled position and you'll see the face will open up in order to get the tail back down on the ground.

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#25 teeezer

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:04 AM

Blade hunter: For non cog systems (taylormade, srixon mizuno, cobra, ping) I think the grip alignment will not change approximately +/- 45į from standard setting GIVEN that the golfer sets the face back to square. Beyond 90į the logo will be too far off to adjust back to square. For example if you rotate the sleeve 180į, you have to turn your club upside down to get the grip back to original playing position.

As for how loft and face angle "can" be changed at the same time: a driver head can be tilted in many different axes. For example: more loft & open; more loft & closed ; less loft and open ; less loft and closed. The degrees by which both change can be different and doesn't have to correlate. To illustrate this take your hand and hold it vertically in a karate chop position. Now move it open and close it (like a door or fanning motion). Then rotate it like turning a door knob. No you can mix the opening and closing motion with a variety of the turning motion. These are all the different ways the club head could be adjusted. So referring to taylormades chart I believe that face angle and loft could be changed at the same time. But as stated by Wishon the adjustment systems are limited to what they can change and that's decided by the designers. The only way to get infinite combinations is to have a bendable hosel and the machine to bend it.

A little more actual science on adjustable hosels that Wishon didn't go into detail about: adjustable hosel systems work by making the hosel asymmetrical to the driver. They are oval shaped. So which you install the shaft in different settings and assuming that you return the shaft to a perpendicular position to the ground, that driver head will have rotated or vice versa. ( returning the driver head into original position will mean the shaft will have changed position). The best illustration I can think of is stacking skipping stones (fairly flat rocks). Since each Rock has a slightly different surface you have to orient them in a certain way to stack them in a balanced position. If you don't they are not balanced and slide off each other. The driver "bore" and hosel adaptor have uneven surfaces like the rocks. Depending on the setting it orients each in a different way. Hope that helps illustrate how it works.

here are some charts I refer to.  I hope that in creating these charts and designing the adjustable system Taylormade physically measured the changes to confirm their design. I have been meaning to go through the process of confirming the system but I don't have access to a loft/lie/FA measuring device. If anyone wants to take on the job I think lots of people would appreciate it. Simply taking measurements of loft lie and FA at every adjustment increment would be insightful.


image.jpeg image.jpeg

Edited by teeezer, 14 January 2018 - 05:09 AM.


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#26 bluedot

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:20 AM

View Postteeezer, on 14 January 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

Blade hunter: For non cog systems (taylormade, srixon mizuno, cobra, ping) I think the grip alignment will not change approximately +/- 45° from standard setting GIVEN that the golfer sets the face back to square. Beyond 90° the logo will be too far off to adjust back to square. For example if you rotate the sleeve 180°, you have to turn your club upside down to get the grip back to original playing position.

As for how loft and face angle "can" be changed at the same time: a driver head can be tilted in many different axes. For example: more loft & open; more loft & closed ; less loft and open ; less loft and closed. The degrees by which both change can be different and doesn't have to correlate. To illustrate this take your hand and hold it vertically in a karate chop position. Now move it open and close it (like a door or fanning motion). Then rotate it like turning a door knob. No you can mix the opening and closing motion with a variety of the turning motion. These are all the different ways the club head could be adjusted. So referring to taylormades chart I believe that face angle and loft could be changed at the same time. But as stated by Wishon the adjustment systems are limited to what they can change and that's decided by the designers. The only way to get infinite combinations is to have a bendable hosel and the machine to bend it.

A little more actual science on adjustable hosels that Wishon didn't go into detail about: adjustable hosel systems work by making the hosel asymmetrical to the driver. They are oval shaped. So which you install the shaft in different settings and assuming that you return the shaft to a perpendicular position to the ground, that driver head will have rotated or vice versa. ( returning the driver head into original position will mean the shaft will have changed position). The best illustration I can think of is stacking skipping stones (fairly flat rocks). Since each Rock has a slightly different surface you have to orient them in a certain way to stack them in a balanced position. If you don't they are not balanced and slide off each other. The driver "bore" and hosel adaptor have uneven surfaces like the rocks. Depending on the setting it orients each in a different way. Hope that helps illustrate how it works.

here are some charts I refer to.  I hope that in creating these charts and designing the adjustable system Taylormade physically measured the changes to confirm their design. I have been meaning to go through the process of confirming the system but I don't have access to a loft/lie/FA measuring device. If anyone wants to take on the job I think lots of people would appreciate it. Simply taking measurements of loft lie and FA at every adjustment increment would be insightful.


Attachment image.jpegAttachment image.jpeg

I understand all of what you have written, and thank you for a very thorough post.

That said, the analogy of one's wrist being able to move two different directions isn't exactly accurate, and, I think, shows the flaw in loft adjustments with club heads.

When you hold your wrist in the karate chop position, you can open it or close it (face angle), and you can change the angle up or down (lie angle); those "adjustments" are relative to the angles of the wrist and hand to the forearm, and are just like a golf club.  But when you turn your hand to a palm up or palm down position, it is NOT the wrist that is moving, it's the bones of the forearm (shaft) that create that rotation.  In the golf swing, for instance, our forearms rotate, not our wrists, despite what most golfers think. Similarly, while we all agree that you can change the face angle and/or lie angle of ANY club, we disagree about whether or not changing the angle at which the shaft inserts into the club head changes the loft.  If you had only one bone in your forearm, like a golf club has only one shaft, you wouldn't be able to change the "loft" of your hand from the karate chop position, either.

Wishon's key point, with which I wholeheartedly agree, is that throughout the history of golf, the loft of a club head has ALWAYS been measured the same way; with the club soled and square, you measure the angle of the face relative to the ground.  That had always been (and still is, of course) a fixed measurement, but now manufacturers are marketing clubs by defining loft in a completely different manner, i.e., "effective loft" IF the golfer can return the club to perfectly square position at impact from an initial open or closed position.

So IF, from a closed face position at address, I can deliver the club to the ball squarely (instead of closed), the club will effectively be a higher than stated loft.  But, of course, most golfers can't do that consistently, so the face angle has a BIG impact on shot dispersion, while the concept of "effective loft" barely even shows up on Trackman, and makes little if any difference in play even when the club IS delivered squarely.

But it isn't good marketing to explain "effective loft" vs. "static loft" vs. face angle, so the manufacturers give us the short version and tell us that we are adjusting loft and leave it at that.  When golfers, either thru a fitting process or trial-and-error, arrive at a setting that works for them, they attribute that to a degree or two of loft, which isn't what is happening at all.  They are either taking one side of the course out of play thru an open or shut club face (skilled players), OR they have found a setting that compensates for a consistent swing flaw (less skilled players).  It isn't the loft; it's the face angle.

I'll say it again; a degree of loft change, even it is happening, isn't especially significant to ball flight.  A degree of face angle IS significant.

And one final note: I am a HUGE fan of adjustable clubs!  I ditched my Ping G hybrids for Titleist hybrids for exactly that reason, and if there were adjustable irons, I'd buy those, too.  But the reason I like adjustable clubs is because I can take the right side of the golf course more or less out of play, not because I can accidentally hit them a little higher or lower every now and then.

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#27 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:59 AM

View Postbluedot, on 14 January 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'll say it again; a degree of loft change, even it is happening, isn't especially significant to ball flight.  A degree of face angle IS significant.

Well, it really depends on the individual.  Some are very sensitive to face angle but there are also some who are not.

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#28 bladehunter

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 10:03 AM

View PostStuart G., on 14 January 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

So the grip alignment changes or not ?

For Callaway adapter, no.  For Titleist, it does for some setting changes but not for others.   For the rest, yes, the grip alignment will change.

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

as i understand it .... driver with face clamped square in the fixture... bending bar would attach  and bend hosel from front to rear to decrease loft.

And the hossel adjustments do exactly the same thing if you look at the relationship between the shaft angle and the head.  Don't confuse the rotation of the adapter sleeve with the opening/closing of the face angle.  

If you really want to understand what's going on, the Callaway mechanism is actually a better one to look at then say the TM adapters.  Take the rings/cogs off and you can see how the shaft orientation can change.

View Postbladehunter, on 13 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

... not bending toe around towards rear center of the head with hosel staying in same spot ....yes?

The opening and closing of the face angle isn't what was "bent".  It's just a consequence that occurs when soling the club after the adjustment.

Try this.  Take your driver, hold it with one hand in an address type position.  head soled and resting on the ground and face (roughly) toward the target.   Now, keeping the face square to the target (don't let it rotate), tilt the shaft toward the target, effectively reducing the loft.  The leading edge of the head is on the ground but the head is no longer soled - the tail is off the ground.   Now keeping the grip in the same position, relax the grip to let the club rotate back to a soled position and you'll see the face will open up in order to get the tail back down on the ground.


Thank you Stuart and Teezer for the thoughtful replies.  

Stuart. The question I asked about grip alignment changing was in reference to bending a fixed hosel for loft.  

I do see what your saying with a cog system.  I see how that could in a sense rebuild the hosel to a position thatís same bending it.  In theory.  My disconnect maybe more with the Taylor made type adjustments.  Which mizuno is the same.  


That being said id almost pay to see a study done that could verify or disprove actual adjustments in loft across the whole adjustment spectrum.  

Iím open minded and would love to be wrong.  Why ?  Iíd love to be able to turn loft down in Driver and see some spin reduction and flight control for my Driver swing that is working toward a neutral or slightly positive AOA.  When I hit down on the ball -4 it seems like 9-10 degrees was ok.  But lately it just isnít.  But Iíve yet to see any evidence of this.  Iíve spent many hours on range with multiple drivers adjusting and just donít see any launch angle changes that are measurable.  Most of the time on trackman.   Therefore my 3 wood and Driver have always been set at neutral.  Mainly because I prefer a neutral to slightly open face.  Not cranked way open like it is when loft supposedly goes down.


Edit.  In short what I think is that  maybe the truth is in the middle somewhere.  Cog systems might work to some degree (1-2).  But take mizuno for example.   Do you really think it works from 11-7.5 degrees ?  I know that it doesnít. That head launches like a 12 degree Head no matter where you set it.   The fact that they print 7.5 on that head is what fired me up about this topic.  I let my 65 year old playing partner hit it one day. His immediate reaction was ď no way on earth thatís 7.5.  I hit it as good as my Driver ď. Which was surprise.  12 degrees.

Edited by bladehunter, 14 January 2018 - 10:12 AM.

Callaway Rogue 9.8 Tour issue Rogue Black 80TX  playing at 43 1/4
17 M1 14.5  Tour issue Graphite Design   AD DI 8X
Bridgestone Tour B-XH 18 Graphite Design AD DI 105X
Ping i500 4-pw Modus 130X
Vokey Tour issue raw SM6   50 f  54  60 M  Modus 130S
Cameron GSS 1.5 009  Vertical stamp , tungsten sole weights

hows that for brand loyalty??

28

#29 bluedot

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:02 AM

View PostStuart G., on 14 January 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

View Postbluedot, on 14 January 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'll say it again; a degree of loft change, even it is happening, isn't especially significant to ball flight.  A degree of face angle IS significant.

Well, it really depends on the individual.  Some are very sensitive to face angle but there are also some who are not.

I have great respect for what you know about golf clubs and components, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I think EVERY golfer is sensitive to face angle in one form or another.  Good players open and shut club faces all the time and on purpose for certain shots, and bad players open and close club faces all the time by accident.  Literally, we spend our golf lives trying to find ways to deliver the sweet spot of the club to the ball and on our chosen target line, and the face angle determines what happens next.  If my club is closed by a degree or two at address, and I can manage to return to that exact position at impact, then the closed club face WILL influence the direction of that shot.

I've ALWAYS played a draw; I like a shut club face.  I have a TON of fixes if I get the hooks; I'm sort of lost if I start missing to the right, and REALLY lost if I start getting two-way misses.  All of that is based, of course, on how well I deliver the club face at impact back to the address position, and that's true of EVERY golfer.  Face angle matters, and it matters on every single shot that we hit.

"Effective loft" changes, on the other hand, assume that I'm good enough to set the club face open or closed, and then "correct" that at will at impact just to hit the ball a degree or two higher or lower.  That is a dubious premise at best, but it's a lot more effective as a marketing technique.  Ask the average golfer these two questions:

1. Do you want an adjustable club on which you can change the loft up or down, so that it is, in effect, a bunch of different clubs?

2. Do you want a club with an open face, or a closed face, or a square face?

They'll answer Question 1 with a resounding "Yes!", and they'll look at Question 2 and say, "Square, of course; I want the damn ball to go straight, not crooked!"

Those answers don't change what is actually happening with adjustable clubs or golf swings, but they do determine how the club will be marketed.

Edited by bluedot, 14 January 2018 - 11:12 AM.


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#30 cxx

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:34 AM

The adjustable drivers all work on the same principal, the adapter fills the space between the larger hole in the head and the smaller shaft tip. Different companies make adjustable adapters using different methods to achieve their particular goals.  If you imagine the shaft tip in the hosel of the club head with space between the hosel and the shaft all around the shaft you can see that the head can be moved/rotated in any direction till the shaft hits the hosel. That means that it is possible to change the orientation of the clubhead to the shaft just like if it were an iron being bent.

The simplest form of adapter is the offset shaft.  The inner and outer cylinder of the adapter are at an angle to one another so that the adapter wobbles if you roll the shaft on a table.  This is not the only design, Titleist has a set of cogs that vary the length of the adapter on each side.  They all perform the same task, some in different ways, fixing the shaft in the hosel at different angles.  All of them are a subset of what is available when bending the hosel. For most they are effective at changing the loft, with side effects of altering the lie angle and face angle.

It may be that some are so used to seeing the clubhead in a particular orientation to the intended line of play that they make some alteration of their setup that minimizes the effect of the adjustment, like moving the ball back in your stance when the clubface looks closed. I'm not sure. The adjustable drivers are effective for a lot of people.

Those must be some large soled irons that stand without holding them square.  Mine flop over unless I hold them. Nike made the covert driver with very little sole.  You had to hold it at address.


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