Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

How are Ladies Tees/Distances calculated during course design?


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 634 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:13
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 471

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:17 PM

My wife is a decent golfer,  Se has good etiquette, plays quickly and manages her attitude/expectations on the course.  Her distance and game are pretty commensurate with her playing partners and most women we have been paired with of her age and handicap.  She is 63 years old and probably averages 150 yards off the tee.  Here's the rub.  On most courses we play, she has very little chance of reaching par 4s and 5s in regulation.  On par 72 courses that total 4500 yards or less (rare), she gets more GIRs, but still usually takes an extra shot to get on when she is playing well.  This seems commonplace in my experience.  It's like me playing from 6400 yards - I'd need driver and FW to reach most par 4s, HOWEVER, I get senior sets of forward tees to move up to get to 5800 yards to match my game (and most of my senior contemporaries).  Why do the ladies NOT have forward tees or shorter distances?  She doesn't complain at all but golf is easier for me than for her.  When she and I play together,I either move back a set of tees, or give her a lot of strokes for our friendly matches.  Tee boxes are relatively easy to add, yes?

TM '07 Burner 10.5 & 3W
Adams 2014 Idea 5h
PING G10  6-UW
PING Eye 2 Gorge SW
Scotty Cameron Fastback

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 Argonne69

Argonne69

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,640 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102839
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Chicago, IL
GolfWRX Likes : 16683

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:42 PM

If you're lucky, the forward tees are 85% the distance of the blue tees. Many older courses are a joke, as they often place the red tees 10 to 20 yards in front of the blues.

A good rule of thumb is to play a distance which is 25 to 26 times your driving distance. It's likely your wife would be playing the most forward tees at ~4000 yards if available.

Edited by Argonne69, 10 January 2018 - 07:43 PM.


2

#3 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 634 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:13
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 471

Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:45 PM

View PostArgonne69, on 10 January 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

If you're lucky, the forward tees are 85% the distance of the blue tees. Many older courses are a joke, as they often place the red tees 10 to 20 yards in front of the blues.

A good rule of thumb is to play a distance which is 25 to 26 times your driving distance. It's likely your wife would be playing the most forward tees at ~4000 yards if available.

There's the rub and the basis of my question.  Courses do not seem to have  a set of "forward" ladies tees..  Just one set that are too long. Why 3 or 4 sets of "men's" tees and and only one set for the ladies?

Edited by sdandrea, 10 January 2018 - 07:47 PM.

TM '07 Burner 10.5 & 3W
Adams 2014 Idea 5h
PING G10  6-UW
PING Eye 2 Gorge SW
Scotty Cameron Fastback

3

#4 Argonne69

Argonne69

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,640 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102839
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Chicago, IL
GolfWRX Likes : 16683

Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:37 PM

Sadly it's because so few women play the game. No excuse, though. I think everyone should pressure their local courses if they don't provide a good selection of tees for golfers of all ages and abilities.


4

#5 CMCSGolf

CMCSGolf

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 264 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 441076
  • Joined: 09/20/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 119

Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:46 PM

View Postsdandrea, on 10 January 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 10 January 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

If you're lucky, the forward tees are 85% the distance of the blue tees. Many older courses are a joke, as they often place the red tees 10 to 20 yards in front of the blues.

A good rule of thumb is to play a distance which is 25 to 26 times your driving distance. It's likely your wife would be playing the most forward tees at ~4000 yards if available.

There's the rub and the basis of my question.  Courses do not seem to have  a set of "forward" ladies tees..  Just one set that are too long. Why 3 or 4 sets of "men's" tees and and only one set for the ladies?

I agree that normal ladies tees are way too far back for most women.  However, if they were moved up another 1,000 yards, it would probably create a lot of really long and awkward walks from the previous green.  I suspect that is a large part of the reason.

Since the game is all about fun and I doubt your wife is playing for cash, maybe teeing up in the fairway 50-75 yards ahead of the normal ladies tee is an option.  She would have more fun hitting greens in regulation and who the hell cares if it's not a "real" tee?


5

#6 @_the_crook

@_the_crook

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 85 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 118828
  • Joined: 12/12/2010
  • Location:Northern IL
GolfWRX Likes : 49

Posted 10 January 2018 - 11:38 PM

The tee boxes at two courses we play most frequently measure out at A) 5100, 5500, 6000, 6300. B) 4900, 6000, 6300 and 6700.

It may be much more enjoyable for your partner to find a fairway spot 30 to 50 yards up from the fronts on the par 4's and 5's to hit driver .

This game is meant for the PLAYER'S PLEASURE, not the spectator's.

There was an article in Golf Digest a while back about where their writer had to be to hit GIR and really enjoy the round. If I recall, Ron Kaspriske was at about 4800 yards.
Go have some fun you two.

6

#7 Halebopp

Halebopp

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,762 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 184750
  • Joined: 06/06/2012
  • Location:Tampere, Finland
GolfWRX Likes : 1050

Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:51 AM

There was a questionnaire about course length and our shot lengths last year on a golf site associated with our golf union and Golf Digest.

They asked us which course we play the most, which tees we usually play, how far we hit our drivers and 7 irons on average. They calculated to optimal course length 14 * driver distance + 18 * 7 iron distance.

The results were that from the 544 ladies that responded 78% are playing a course too long for them and 86% of all the ladies are already playing the shortest tees available. For ladies with handicaps from 4.5 to 11.4, the courses are about 150 yards too long, for 11.5-18.4 they are almost 600 yards too long and for higher caps the courses were 1100+ yards too long from the shortest tees.

According to the replies, the ladies' tees should be around 4300 yards. The lady bogey golfer used in course ratings is someone who can hit a drive 150 yards and reach a 280-yard par 4 in regulation. Those numbers would give us similar course length. The (not so) funny thing is that, in Finland, there are no courses that are shorter than 4400 yards from the forward tees and only five courses shorter than 5000 yards.

I should be playing courses in the 6300-6400 range, I'm not sure how much fun it would be to play courses north of 7000 yards day in and day out.
D: Mizuno MP-650, 9.5*, Orochi Red Stiff
3&5W: Mizuno MP-650, 15*, 18*, Orochi Red Stiff
3 Iron: Mizuno MP-H5, KBS Tour Stiff
4-PW: Mizuno MP-4, KBS Tour Stiff
Mizuno MP-T5 50.07, DG Wedge
W/S FG Tour PMP: 55.12, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
W/S FG Tour PMP: 59.10, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
WITB Link

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6

7

#8 fillwelix

fillwelix

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 318 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 249866
  • Joined: 05/10/2013
  • Location:New Jersey
  • Handicap:7.5
GolfWRX Likes : 200

Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:42 AM

My course has "family tees" in the fairway around 140-240 from the green on every hole, the idea is for young kids to start there and work their way back to the forward tees, a step in the right direction?
WITB
Taylormade M1 2016 9.5*
Taylormade M2 2016 3HL
Taylormade M2 2017 3 Hybrid
Mizuno JPX 900 Tour 4-PW
Titleist Vokey SM6 50* 54* 58*
Byron Morgan DH89

8

#9 KBong

KBong

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 434478
  • Joined: 07/29/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 226

Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:05 AM

View PostHalebopp, on 11 January 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

They asked us which course we play the most, which tees we usually play, how far we hit our drivers and 7 irons on average. They calculated to optimal course length 14 * driver distance + 18 * 7 iron distance.
IMO....this calculation doesn't consider the par 5's....I'd add in 400-500 yards for the par 5's.

9

#10 KBong

KBong

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 434478
  • Joined: 07/29/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 226

Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:17 AM

View PostArgonne69, on 10 January 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

A good rule of thumb is to play a distance which is 25 to 26 times your driving distance.
I think the above factors should be associated with one's typical longest drive.
Far too often golfers equate their driving distance to their average longest drive.
The average golfer is only 'puring'/maximizing shot distance 20% and less....if someone tells me they're driving the ball 250 yards...unless they are a mid low single digit handicap....I believe they are hitting more 220 yard drives that slice, hook, fat or thin....than 250 yard drives.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 KBong

KBong

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 390 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 434478
  • Joined: 07/29/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 226

Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:27 AM

View PostArgonne69, on 10 January 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

Sadly it's because so few women play the game. No excuse, though. I think everyone should pressure their local courses if they don't provide a good selection of tees for golfers of all ages and abilities.
Agree...therefore women are an after though in golf course design.
And from my experience....most women play 'hit & giggle" golf who don't care enough to complain that the women's tee blocks are set too long for the average women's golfer.

I think there are only 5...maybe 10 max.....regular female posters on this site that carry a single digit handicap.

In my near 49 years of playing golf....I've only been paired up with 3 single digit female golfers...one was playing a practice round before a provincial event...and the other two were young provincial junior players.

11

#12 andrue

andrue

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 458618
  • Joined: 03/13/2017
  • Location:South Northants, UK
  • Handicap:23
GolfWRX Likes : 199

Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:29 AM

View Postsdandrea, on 10 January 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

View PostArgonne69, on 10 January 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

If you're lucky, the forward tees are 85% the distance of the blue tees. Many older courses are a joke, as they often place the red tees 10 to 20 yards in front of the blues.

A good rule of thumb is to play a distance which is 25 to 26 times your driving distance. It's likely your wife would be playing the most forward tees at ~4000 yards if available.

There's the rub and the basis of my question.  Courses do not seem to have  a set of "forward" ladies tees..  Just one set that are too long. Why 3 or 4 sets of "men's" tees and and only one set for the ladies?
One of the courses I play at has Red, Yellow, White and Black.
Red = Ladies
Yellow = General play.
White = Tournament.

Black is...I don't know. On most holes it's between red and yellow so at first I thought it was 'teenage male'. Except that on a couple of holes it's between yellow and white and on one hole it's the longest tee. I keep meaning to ask at the clubhouse but I also keep forgetting, lol.

Update: Now there's a thing. The Scorecard has been updated and now mentions a blue tee (maybe black is the new blue or it's a very, very deep navy :) ). And yes, on the 13th blue is given the same distance as white whereas most of the rest it's between red and yellow. Lol, on the 15th it's the same as red. I assume it's all based on total length but it sees an odd way of doing it.

Edited by andrue, 11 January 2018 - 09:38 AM.

Callaway XR Driver.
Callaway Big Bertha OS Hybrids (3/4/5)
Callaway Big Bertha OS Irons (6/7/8/9/PW/AW/SW)
Cleveland 60* LW
Callaway 64* Sureout wedge
Ghost Spider Si 72 Putter
Callaway Super Soft Yellow (White in winter).

12

#13 Halebopp

Halebopp

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,762 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 184750
  • Joined: 06/06/2012
  • Location:Tampere, Finland
GolfWRX Likes : 1050

Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:32 AM

View PostKBong, on 11 January 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostHalebopp, on 11 January 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

They asked us which course we play the most, which tees we usually play, how far we hit our drivers and 7 irons on average. They calculated to optimal course length 14 * driver distance + 18 * 7 iron distance.
IMO....this calculation doesn't consider the par 5's....I'd add in 400-500 yards for the par 5's.

I would agree with you if the assumption was that you can hit driver off every tee and the 7 iron should be the average club for approach shots onto the greens. Assume an 8 iron should be the average club for approaches (after your average drive) and there are three holes where you don't hit a driver off the tee and we've got 260+ yards left over for par 5s.
D: Mizuno MP-650, 9.5*, Orochi Red Stiff
3&5W: Mizuno MP-650, 15*, 18*, Orochi Red Stiff
3 Iron: Mizuno MP-H5, KBS Tour Stiff
4-PW: Mizuno MP-4, KBS Tour Stiff
Mizuno MP-T5 50.07, DG Wedge
W/S FG Tour PMP: 55.12, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
W/S FG Tour PMP: 59.10, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
WITB Link

Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6

13

#14 Santiago Golf

Santiago Golf

    I Strive to make you Better

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,005 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 151005
  • Joined: 12/13/2011
  • Handicap:???
GolfWRX Likes : 1522

Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:16 AM

View PostHalebopp, on 11 January 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

View PostKBong, on 11 January 2018 - 09:05 AM, said:

View PostHalebopp, on 11 January 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

They asked us which course we play the most, which tees we usually play, how far we hit our drivers and 7 irons on average. They calculated to optimal course length 14 * driver distance + 18 * 7 iron distance.
IMO....this calculation doesn't consider the par 5's....I'd add in 400-500 yards for the par 5's.

I would agree with you if the assumption was that you can hit driver off every tee and the 7 iron should be the average club for approach shots onto the greens. Assume an 8 iron should be the average club for approaches (after your average drive) and there are three holes where you don't hit a driver off the tee and we've got 260+ yards left over for par 5s.
Drive×14+7iron×18

295×14+185×18=7460

Driver×25=7375

I dont normally play courses this long but i would be okay this range. Adding 500 yards puts me only able to play Erin Hills for the rest of my life.

IMO i think the majority of public courses should be be 12 holes with hole yardage in the following mannor (mens, womens)
Par 3 <150, <90
Par 4, 250-360, 190-300
Par 5, 430-470, 370-410
Also no faorway bunkers and 6 inch cups. Suggest way of playing being 2 on 2 Schamble matches.

This would make the game more fun for the typical player.
Driver: Taylormade M2 '17 10.5*; Project X Hazardus Black 6.5
Fairway: Coming Soon Taylormade Aeroburner TP 15*
Hybrid: Adams IDEA Super XTD 17*; UST Mamiya Proforce VTS 100HX
Utility: Coming Soon Taylormade Speedblade 3, 4 iron
Irons: Titleist 716 AP2 4-6, CB 7-9; Steelfiber i110x
Wedges: Scratch 1018 47*, 53*, 59*; Steelfiber i125x
Putter: Scotty Cameron Studio Design #5 MB
Ball: Vice Pro Plus Pink

#NoDaysOff

14

#15 Conrad1953

Conrad1953

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,803 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66402
  • Joined: 09/24/2008
  • Location:Alabama
  • Handicap:9
  • Ebay ID:cobicreations
GolfWRX Likes : 42379

Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:17 AM

I never really thought about this but now, reading this thread, realize the ladies ARE too far
back for the vast majority; especially when I consider that most ladies I've played with are
close to or are seniors.

A few of the guys I play with have wives that play too and sometimes play with us. They never
have a shot at a GIR; not even close, except for some of the par 3s where there's a forced
carry and the tees have to be set close or the hole would be unplayable for them.

Ping G25 10.5 degree w/PL Blue 65S
Ping G15 4 wood w/PL Blue 65S
Ping G10 18 and 21 Hybrids w PL Blue HY S
    Ping S58 Irons 4-P with Ping AWT R
    Ping Gorge Wedges 52 and 58 w/CFS Wedge  
   Odyssey White Hot Tour #1

  



Member #3---------Outlaw Golf Association
   Non Physics Geezer Division

15

#16 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 634 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:13
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 471

Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

She plays in 3 different leagues for cash or store credit, so there is no moving up to a spot in the fairway.  She just grins and tolerates it, as do her competitors.  She still enjoys the game and it probably bothers me more than her.  It just doesn't seem fair that the ladies have so few chances for a GIR.  We occasionally find a course with tees in the 4400 range and she has broken 90 on those a few times.

Edited by sdandrea, 13 January 2018 - 11:52 AM.

TM '07 Burner 10.5 & 3W
Adams 2014 Idea 5h
PING G10  6-UW
PING Eye 2 Gorge SW
Scotty Cameron Fastback

16

#17 Sean2

Sean2

    #TheWRX (Callaway Trip)

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 26,961 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 29539
  • Joined: 05/23/2007
  • Location:South of Boston
  • Ebay ID:None
GolfWRX Likes : 13774

Posted 13 January 2018 - 12:02 PM

I agree with the OP. I see more than a few holes on golf courses where the ladies have no chance of getting home in regulation (with a few exceptions). To me, that is poor design. And, it has to be frustrating for the player.

Callaway GBB Epic 11º / Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana M+ 40R
Callaway GBB Epic 17º / Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana M+ 50S

Callaway GBB Epic 22º / Mitsubishi Rayon Diamana M+ 50S
Callaway Steelhead XR 25º / Matrix Ozik Program F15 65S
Callaway Apex CF16 6-AW / UST Recoil ES 460 F4
Callaway MD Forged 54º /
UST Recoil ES 460 F4

Callaway MD-PM 58º / UST Recoil ES 460 F4

Callaway MD-PM 62º / UST Recoil ES 460 F4

Callaway Odyssey O Works Tank #7

17

#18 tjblue

tjblue

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 288705
  • Joined: 12/23/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 14

Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:20 PM

My wife hits about a dozen five woods a round from the rough and fairway. She's more than a little ticked when the course is playing longer than 5000. Lately she's been taking par 5's off. She doesn't keep score but she is very competitive (with me).

18



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors