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There's no such thing as an "Average Golfer"


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#61 CoiledUP

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:30 PM

View Postoikos1, on 12 January 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

So going back to your original post, it sounds like you are saying any golf instruction program designed for more than one person is fraudulent based on the idea that we are all unique and said program could really only help one person.

I would wager these instructors would, if truth be told, agree with your comment.  There is no one way.
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#62 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:33 PM

View PostSean2, on 11 January 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

There are a lot of vehicles I can't fit in, especially any one with a sun roof.

How does the addition of a sunroof decrease headroom?

Of course you could always drive with it open.  :)

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#63 Medic

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:05 PM

View PostHitEmTrue, on 12 January 2018 - 06:33 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 11 January 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

There are a lot of vehicles I can't fit in, especially any one with a sun roof.

How does the addition of a sunroof decrease headroom?

Of course you could always drive with it open.  :)

02b830752d48671ae96512adcea9a53a--sun-roof-vw-beetles.jpg

Being 6'2" I can appreciate what Sean's talking about. I have to admit that my Civic with a sunroof has clanged my head on the low roof. (because the sunroof has to go somewhere when opened so the tracks and such serve to diminish the headroom)

I can attest to how badly it hurts when you get popped in the head going over a bump. :black eye:
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#64 Smash Factors

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:06 PM

View Postoikos1, on 12 January 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

So going back to your original post, it sounds like you are saying any golf instruction program designed for more than one person is fraudulent based on the idea that we are all unique and said program could really only help one person.

I think it would be a mistake to instruct a group of people in the exact same way without spending any time addressing a single persons individual needs. IMO, instruction should be more personalized than generic.

In the last few years, one thing golf instructors are discovering is that one-by-one, all these age old assumptions your Grandfather taught you about the golf swing are being debunked.

"Keep your head down."
"Keep your head still."
"Swing out to the right."
"Align your feet to the target."
"Hold the angles."
"Point the shaft to the target at the top of the swing."
"Bow the left wrist."
"Hold the club like a bird."

This stuff doesn't work for everyone. We're not all the same.
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#65 northgolf

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:10 PM

Blah, blal, blah.

How about doing some work and finding modes which define approximate groups that could be instructed in the same manner.  This thread has all been a goose chase because the op sent us chasing an average body type when the tripartite ecto/endo/mezomorph body type modes have been known for ages.  Of course average is inutile, it doesn't match any of the modes.

This is worse than watching dogs chase their tails and cats chase lasers..

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#66 northgolf

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:30 PM

While I am ranting, without wanting to be mean (average?!), saying there is no person who is average because you did not find one in a sample of 4000 at a point in time when the earth's population was 1.2 billion is presumptuous.  This mode of thinking has to be well below the median of anyone with the slightest grasp of statistics.

Statistics can only lie if you don't understand how they are being used.
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#67 northgolf

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:39 PM

The next thing you know, we will all be in Lake WoeBeGone where all children are above average.
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#68 oikos1

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:50 PM

I love a good rant.  Even more when it isn't me.  The one thing I can appreciate about the OP's premise is that if I can't possibly be an average golfer, at least it's been narrowed down to only two possibilities: "Yeah, that guy can play" or "No, he pretty much sucks".

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#69 thug the bunny

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 11:16 PM

View Postnorthgolf, on 12 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

While I am ranting, without wanting to be mean (average?!), saying there is no person who is average because you did not find one in a sample of 4000 at a point in time when the earth's population was 1.2 billion is presumptuous.  This mode of thinking has to be well below the median of anyone with the slightest grasp of statistics.

Statistics can only lie if you don't understand how they are being used.

Well said. Thank you. I think we all know the OP's point that instruction should be individualized, but to use a poor understanding of statistics to support that view is incorrect, off point, and misrepresents statistics.
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#70 Medic

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:13 AM

In my 55 plus years on this earth I have learned a great deal.

One of the main things is that certain words and phrases simply don't apply...

"Always"

"Never"

"No such thing"

End thread/

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#71 Sean2

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:31 AM

View PostMedic, on 13 January 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

In my 55 plus years on this earth I have learned a great deal.

One of the main things is that certain words and phrases simply don't apply...

"Always"

"Never"

"No such thing"

End thread/

What you say is impossible. lol
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#72 Middler

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:43 AM

I'm not sure why this distinction is so important. When I think of average golfers, I am not thinking about height, weight, age, and other bodily dimensions like the pilot example - I am thinking about average score, handicap, driving distance, % GIR, % fairways, # of putts/hole, etc. And all that's useful for is helping to see where I need to improve and where I'm already "average." I've never met a golfer who cared how their bodily dimensions compared to others.

Yes, it's more useful to compare yourself to peers, who doesn't know that? That's why we usually see average for seniors, women, touring pros, etc. - not often the whole universe of players.

What's wrong with using golf performance averages as a rough guide on where to focus? What's a better means to guide an average golfer who isn't part of an academic study?

Edited by Middler, 13 January 2018 - 03:57 PM.

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#73 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM

View PostMiddler, on 13 January 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not sure why this distinction is so important. When I think of average golfers, I am not thinking about height, weight, age, and other bodily dimensions like the pilot example - I am thinking about average score, handicap, driving distance, % GIR, % fairways, # of putts/hole, etc. And all that's useful for is helping to see where I need to improve and where I'm already "average." I've never met a golfer who cared how their bodily dimensions compared to others.

Yes, it's more useful to compare yourself to peers, who doesn't know that. That's why we usually see average for seniors, women, touring pros, etc. - not often the whole universe of players.

What's wrong with using golf performance averages as a rough guide on where to focus? What's a better means to guide an average golfer who isn't part of an academic study?

The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.

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#74 Middler

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostMiddler, on 13 January 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not sure why this distinction is so important. When I think of average golfers, I am not thinking about height, weight, age, and other bodily dimensions like the pilot example - I am thinking about average score, handicap, driving distance, % GIR, % fairways, # of putts/hole, etc. And all that's useful for is helping to see where I need to improve and where I'm already "average." I've never met a golfer who cared how their bodily dimensions compared to others.

Yes, it's more useful to compare yourself to peers, who doesn't know that. That's why we usually see average for seniors, women, touring pros, etc. - not often the whole universe of players.

What's wrong with using golf performance averages as a rough guide on where to focus? What's a better means to guide an average golfer who isn't part of an academic study?

The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.
OK, but I hope the OP isnt suggesting we all have nothing in common, or that are all our swings are completely and meaningfully unique. That each of us has to adapt to our ability is not news. Maybe I missed it, did the OP ever offer an alternative?

Edited by Middler, 13 January 2018 - 04:04 PM.

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#75 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 05:48 PM

View PostMiddler, on 13 January 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View PostMiddler, on 13 January 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not sure why this distinction is so important. When I think of average golfers, I am not thinking about height, weight, age, and other bodily dimensions like the pilot example - I am thinking about average score, handicap, driving distance, % GIR, % fairways, # of putts/hole, etc. And all that's useful for is helping to see where I need to improve and where I'm already "average." I've never met a golfer who cared how their bodily dimensions compared to others.

Yes, it's more useful to compare yourself to peers, who doesn't know that. That's why we usually see average for seniors, women, touring pros, etc. - not often the whole universe of players.

What's wrong with using golf performance averages as a rough guide on where to focus? What's a better means to guide an average golfer who isn't part of an academic study?

The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.
OK, but I hope the OP isn’t suggesting we all have nothing in common, or that are all our swings are completely and meaningfully unique. That each of us has to adapt to our ability is not news. Maybe I missed it, did the OP ever offer an alternative?

There are some common things that look the same In everyone’s swings, but I’m sure that there are many paths to lead to that swing.


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#76 thug the bunny

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:24 PM

This is becoming silly. I have never seen the word 'average' misused so frequently.
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#77 Smash Factors

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:29 PM

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:


The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.

That's pretty much the message, but I also want people to understand that there is no average person. It's very typical for people to assume that average people exist. In recent years, scientists have discovered that they ultimately reach a dead end when trying to define what an average person is. What most of them really wanted to figure out was average intelligence. They wanted to map the brain and figure out how an average person thinks. They're finding that if you took 1000 people and had them all perform the same mental task, that each person would be using their brain in their own unique way to find the same answer. You cannot map brain activity.

I may be wrong, but I think that many golf instructors have wrongly assumed that there's instructive ideas that work for everyone.

Slicefixer for example, would prefer to have all his students spend days, if not weeks, hitting thousands of balls in a 9-3 drill. Is that supposed to work for everyone?
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#78 thug the bunny

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:28 PM

View PostSmash Factors, on 13 January 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.

That's pretty much the message, but I also want people to understand that there is no average person. It's very typical for people to assume that average people exist. In recent years, scientists have discovered that they ultimately reach a dead end when trying to define what an average person is. What most of them really wanted to figure out was average intelligence. They wanted to map the brain and figure out how an average person thinks. They're finding that if you took 1000 people and had them all perform the same mental task, that each person would be using their brain in their own unique way to find the same answer. You cannot map brain activity.

I may be wrong, but I think that many golf instructors have wrongly assumed that there's instructive ideas that work for everyone.

Slicefixer for example, would prefer to have all his students spend days, if not weeks, hitting thousands of balls in a 9-3 drill. Is that supposed to work for everyone?

Worked for me, and it works for a lot of beginners, as well as for more experienced golfers to regain their baseline. That's how I first discovered ball first square contact long ago (and I'm proud to say I discovered it myself when I noticed that punching the ball under branches or out of woods produced a nice repeatable boring flight). So, am I average?
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#79 Smash Factors

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:46 AM

View Postthug the bunny, on 13 January 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

View PostSmash Factors, on 13 January 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 January 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

The point of this thread is that there's no average way to teach everyone.

That's pretty much the message, but I also want people to understand that there is no average person. It's very typical for people to assume that average people exist. In recent years, scientists have discovered that they ultimately reach a dead end when trying to define what an average person is. What most of them really wanted to figure out was average intelligence. They wanted to map the brain and figure out how an average person thinks. They're finding that if you took 1000 people and had them all perform the same mental task, that each person would be using their brain in their own unique way to find the same answer. You cannot map brain activity.

I may be wrong, but I think that many golf instructors have wrongly assumed that there's instructive ideas that work for everyone.

Slicefixer for example, would prefer to have all his students spend days, if not weeks, hitting thousands of balls in a 9-3 drill. Is that supposed to work for everyone?

Worked for me, and it works for a lot of beginners, as well as for more experienced golfers to regain their baseline. That's how I first discovered ball first square contact long ago (and I'm proud to say I discovered it myself when I noticed that punching the ball under branches or out of woods produced a nice repeatable boring flight). So, am I average?

It worked for you.

Doesn't work for everyone.
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#80 Middler

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:27 AM

View Postnorthgolf, on 12 January 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

Blah, blal, blah.

This is worse than watching dogs chase their tails and cats chase lasers..
+1. Especially in that the OP offers no alternatives. For every person who has a useful solution, there are a million others who can only suggest problems.

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#81 glk

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:11 AM

So Globo Gym going after Average Joe's was a big mistake?

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#82 8thehardway

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 12:06 PM

How long would it have taken Gary Koch to say "better than most" if worded in a statistically-approved fashion?
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#83 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 12:15 PM

View PostMiddler, on 14 January 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

For every person who has a useful solution, there are a million others who can only suggest problems.

That's why there are tens of thousands of golf instructors populating the world.

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#84 thug the bunny

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:39 PM

View Post8thehardway, on 14 January 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

How long would it have taken Gary Koch to say "better than most" if worded in a statistically-approved fashion?

"Better than +/- one standard deviation of average except for the fact that there is no one golfer who exactly fits the current criteria of the highest population of pro golfers...better than +/- one standard deviation...(How about in?)....Better than +/- one standard deviation......!!!"
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#85 Smash Factors

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 04:13 AM

View PostMiddler, on 14 January 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 12 January 2018 - 10:10 PM, said:

Blah, blal, blah.

This is worse than watching dogs chase their tails and cats chase lasers..
+1. Especially in that the OP offers no alternatives. For every person who has a useful solution, there are a million others who can only suggest problems.

I sorta did though.

If you want to use a single dimensional thing (Like scoring) to compare your performance to average, then that's fine. If you're a 5 index player and want to know the average number of putts that a 5 indexer takes per round, that would be useful for a comparison. It's when people try to average something multi dimensional that you have problems. If you tried to determine what an average golfer is so you could look at stats, you would be destined to fail. You also cannot rely on a singular dimensional thing, when it's only one part of a multi dimensional phenomena. You cannot only be a good putter and expect to be a great golfer. You have to also drive the ball well, hit decent irons, have good green side play, and more.

In the early 2000's Isaiah Thomas was in charge of the Knicks. He decided to build the team based upon only one thing: Scoring average. He assumed that if every player on the team had a high scoring average that they surely would win a championship. With a seemingly endless supply of money, he spent what was necessary to obtain many NBA players with the highest scoring average in the league.

The result? They had several losing seasons.

The reason why is that basketball talent is not a single dimensional phenomena. It's multi dimensional. You cant just be a top scorer and expect to win games. You have to have people who can block, assist, steal, shoot free throws and much more. Imagine a team of basketball stars who are used to getting the assist and driving the shot home. Now, these guys are having to GIVE the assist....which isn't something they're used to doing. Not only that, but they also have to do all the other things that everyone else on the team normally does for them.

All that being said, without it I don't think the thread is useless. There's a larger message here about averages and how they've been a huge part of your life but you probably never really realized it.

Whatever driver happens to be working at the time
Some random 3 wood
My same, old irons
A few wedges...
Scotty Cameron Fastback

25

#86 thug the bunny

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:27 PM

It's called a variable, not a dimension.
The absolute perfection of existence, life, and aesthetic beauty is the work not only of evolution but of a powerful being.

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#87 Smash Factors

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:02 PM

View Postthug the bunny, on 16 January 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's called a variable, not a dimension.

Multidimensional is the better option because it refers to complex things with many different aspects or variables.
Whatever driver happens to be working at the time
Some random 3 wood
My same, old irons
A few wedges...
Scotty Cameron Fastback

27

#88 thug the bunny

thug the bunny

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:06 PM

View PostSmash Factors, on 17 January 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

View Postthug the bunny, on 16 January 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's called a variable, not a dimension.

Multidimensional is the better option because it refers to complex things with many different aspects or variables.

Multi variable or multivariate.

Edited by thug the bunny, 17 January 2018 - 09:43 PM.

The absolute perfection of existence, life, and aesthetic beauty is the work not only of evolution but of a powerful being.

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#89 Hateto3Putt

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:28 PM

You can tell its January when topics like this appear.

The average temperature around here for the past 30 days has been 10.

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#90 thug the bunny

thug the bunny

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:42 PM

View PostHateto3Putt, on 17 January 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

You can tell it's January when topics like this appear.

The average temperature around here for the past 30 days has been 10.

You got that right H3P...I haven't played since mid Dec, and only played 2x from oct - dec before that due to work.  I'm thinking of gouging my eyes out. Might be a bit more comfortable that way.

The absolute perfection of existence, life, and aesthetic beauty is the work not only of evolution but of a powerful being.

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