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184 ball speed suckas


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#61 lowheel

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you


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#62 Valtiel

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he'd end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".

Edited by Valtiel, 13 January 2018 - 02:00 AM.

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#63 Shilgy

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:47 PM

View PostValtiel, on 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones youíve mentioned about tiger. However itís a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. Iím really happy heís finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think itís impossible that heís flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and letís not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I donít see how you donít feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists canít even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. Itís like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothingís changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesnít! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".
Exactly. I've said many times we still have no idea what Tiger has left. I will maintain that if truly healthy he will likely win again. I'm not in the "if it's not a major it does not count" camp as I feel most players win majors at approximately their normal run rate. Andy North excluded.
  It's the guys that are throwing darts that bug me. About any player. With Tiger they trot out the same tired comments about pancakes and what not. The comments this year will go something like.... Well he still hasn't won.... Ok he won once....oh, he's won a few times but not a major..... Yeah he's won one more but he's still behind Jack by 3...2...1...... He's lucky he never had to play Trevino and Palmer...... Oh crap, fire hydrant trophy. :)
  Do I really think that's what will happen? Probably not. But there's not a player ever on tour that had about 50% of the crowd so damn happy win or lose. Half will be glad if he wins and half will exult if he does not.
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#64 QEight

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:13 AM

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

And why do this same darts throwing in each thread. Regular readers know their stance, so no been to copy paste replies. Unless wanting to be obnoxious. But I guess tw moves even their needle.
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#65 A.Princey

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:14 AM

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.
^^^^truth

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#66 A.Princey

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:20 AM

It's like by voicing your opinion with a million other sheep, and believing that because you said it, it will undoubtedly come true. Does denial help the haters sleep at night???
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#67 Valtiel

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:22 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you've mentioned about tiger. However it's a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I'm really happy he's finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it's impossible that he's flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let's not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don't see how you don't feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can't even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It's like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing's changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn't! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".
Exactly. I've said many times we still have no idea what Tiger has left. I will maintain that if truly healthy he will likely win again. I'm not in the "if it's not a major it does not count" camp as I feel most players win majors at approximately their normal run rate. Andy North excluded.
  It's the guys that are throwing darts that bug me. About any player. With Tiger they trot out the same tired comments about pancakes and what not. The comments this year will go something like.... Well he still hasn't won.... Ok he won once....oh, he's won a few times but not a major..... Yeah he's won one more but he's still behind Jack by 3...2...1...... He's lucky he never had to play Trevino and Palmer...... Oh crap, fire hydrant trophy. :)
  Do I really think that's what will happen? Probably not. But there's not a player ever on tour that had about 50% of the crowd so damn happy win or lose. Half will be glad if he wins and half will exult if he does not.

I actually started to type something about "moving the goalposts" but I thought you might touch on that, heh.

It will be a natural reaction to the other side of the fence which will be hurriedly inscribing Tiger's name on all future trophies once he manages to pick up another win. I get it. The doomsayers probably get a lot of their snark from the disinformation campaigns that have come out of Tiger's camp over the years. You can only say "i'm pain free/striping it/feeling explosive/killer traj/worst ball 66" so many times before people stop buying the sales pitch when it ends in going back under the knife again. IMO a little honesty would have gone a long way in the vein of "I have this problem and we have several solutions to explore. We're gonna try the least invasive first. If that doesn't work then we'll try it again. If it still doesn't work then we're going with the more invasive option that we feel will give us the best chance but we're saving that for last, wish me luck!" instead of the back and forth of "i'm fine/I can't walk".

I still maintain that if he stays healthy that he'll definitely at least pick up another win or two, MAYBE a major if the healthy streak lasts more than a few years.

As a side note, I do wonder if the fusion should have been performed right from the get go. It sure seems like the several discectomies were a big waste of time in terms of what it bought him vs. recovery time.

Edited by Valtiel, 13 January 2018 - 02:23 AM.

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#68 Ashley Schaeffer

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:29 AM

View PostA.Princey, on 13 January 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

It's like by voicing your opinion with a million other sheep, and believing that because you said it, it will undoubtedly come true. Does denial help the haters sleep at night???

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#69 tannyhoban

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:14 AM

Tiger's greatest asset was the ability to grind through a poor ball striking round and post a round that kept him in the hunt.  Of course having speed helped him achieve that. To me he was the ultimate grinder, he never gave up.  Until he gets back to tour who knows?

Time creeps up and has a way of forcing changes. And nobody is immune.  Tiger is getting old.

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#70 sdandrea

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM

Too bad golf isn't a ball speed contest. Tiger still has to score low to win.


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#71 Man_O_War

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:29 AM

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

weak assessment for someone who knows so much about golf... tell me who in the top 10 of golf today hasn't had something folks thought would scar them for life? remember DJ at the first time of leading a major on Sunday? and the yip chipping and flat out choking? Speith at number 12 at Augusta...they get over it....it's not that special a thing for Tiger to also get over his scars, and barring injury again, there is no reason why he can't improve.  Lots of players have had mechanical/brain farts and recovered...lesser players

Edited by Man_O_War, 13 January 2018 - 09:44 AM.

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#72 twjames72

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:48 AM

The guy is all time.

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#73 Valtiel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 01:48 AM

View Postsdandrea, on 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Too bad golf isn't a ball speed contest. Tiger still has to score low to win.

This isn't being pointed out because people think its a contest, its because there were plenty of people that said "Welp, no more distance for Tiger" when they heard "fusion". Being able to generate 180 mph+ off the tee after half a dozen back surgeries and a hefty painkiller addiction is pretty freakin' remarkable whether or not he ever sees the top of a leader board on Sunday again.
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#74 grm24

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 02:00 AM

View Postsdandrea, on 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Tiger still has to score low to win.
Pretty deep observation. Any examples in a stroke play event where someone with a higher score won?

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#75 Valtiel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 02:15 AM

View Postgrm24, on 14 January 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

View Postsdandrea, on 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Tiger still has to score low to win.
Pretty deep observation. Any examples in a stroke play event where someone with a higher score won?

Jordan Spieth be like....

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#76 lowheel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:17 AM

View PostMan_O_War, on 13 January 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

weak assessment for someone who knows so much about golf... tell me who in the top 10 of golf today hasn't had something folks thought would scar them for life? remember DJ at the first time of leading a major on Sunday? and the yip chipping and flat out choking? Speith at number 12 at Augusta...they get over it....it's not that special a thing for Tiger to also get over his scars, and barring injury again, there is no reason why he can't improve.  Lots of players have had mechanical/brain farts and recovered...lesser players

Well your passive aggressiveness aside ;) choking in your 20s in your prime is not the same as when you know time is running out and things creep into your game you never had to deal with before. Tiger is/was used to things going his way his whole life yet he hit that wall and hes not the same player and hasnt been for 10 years. if you cant see that, im sorry. I too wish he was but hes not. and the last decade proves this, injuries or not. When your confidence goes at that age its extremely rare hard to get it back.You can still play and hit close to the same shots but the putts dont go in like they used to and under the gun you dont pull off the same shots as consistently. i dont know how you can argue with that. All the greats of all time had massive drop offs in their 40s, i dont see how you can argue that. Tiger is no different. it happens to everybody

Edited by lowheel, 14 January 2018 - 04:18 AM.


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#77 lowheel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:24 AM

View PostValtiel, on 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he'd end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".

Well thats where we disagree.I bolded the part of your post that seems to bother alot of Tiger fans but not me.Its actually a valid assessment / opinion based on the last 5/10 years. You dont like it but its not crazy to say these things.Do some of the guys here saying that hate tiger? sure but its till a valid statement.if he proves these people wrong its win win for you , no? but if he doesnt will you budge of your position thats its blasphemous to say Tiger is done? thats the real question.
Im wishing him well but based on what ive seen the last 10 years im not optimistic. I hope he proves me wrong

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#78 lowheel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:35 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you've mentioned about tiger. However it's a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I'm really happy he's finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it's impossible that he's flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let's not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don't see how you don't feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can't even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It's like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing's changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn't! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".
Exactly. I've said many times we still have no idea what Tiger has left. I will maintain that if truly healthy he will likely win again. I'm not in the "if it's not a major it does not count" camp as I feel most players win majors at approximately their normal run rate. Andy North excluded.
  It's the guys that are throwing darts that bug me. About any player. With Tiger they trot out the same tired comments about pancakes and what not. The comments this year will go something like.... Well he still hasn't won.... Ok he won once....oh, he's won a few times but not a major..... Yeah he's won one more but he's still behind Jack by 3...2...1...... He's lucky he never had to play Trevino and Palmer...... Oh crap, fire hydrant trophy. :)
  Do I really think that's what will happen? Probably not. But there's not a player ever on tour that had about 50% of the crowd so damn happy win or lose. Half will be glad if he wins and half will exult if he does not.

I guess my real question Shil, is why does this seem to bother you so personally? I might be wrong but your post basically has you in knots in anticipation of what ifs. This is tiger 7.0, if he plays 10-12-15 events this year and doesnt win but is healthy i would call that a success.If hes competitive, great.If he wins even better but you cant control what people will say. His legacy is already cemented with legendary play. its all gravy from here on out. thats why i wasnt emotionally invested last year after the hero or this year after the hero because like you said. we dont know however making comments like "hes done", etc.. is not offside in my opinion because winning in your 40s is no easy feat as history has shown us.
members at my club have made a pool at my home course with about 4000$ in the pot about tigers upcoming season. All kinds of prop bets, predictions, top 10s, cuts made etc.. so alot of people are rooting as you said in both directions, pretty wild.

Edited by lowheel, 14 January 2018 - 04:35 AM.


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#79 lowheel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:36 AM

View Postgrm24, on 14 January 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

View Postsdandrea, on 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Tiger still has to score low to win.
Pretty deep observation. Any examples in a stroke play event where someone with a higher score won?

Stableford?

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#80 Valtiel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:13 AM

View Postlowheel, on 14 January 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 12 January 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 12 January 2018 - 06:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 January 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

The comforting thing for Tiger is that the same guys that said, in absolutely unequivocal terms, Tiger would never have the speed to compete on tour any longer are now the ones saying it will cause his back to fail. Or.... If they're wrong on that the chip yips from a while back will get him. Or....

It's like watching guys throw a million darts at the board and then exulting if they finally get a bulls eye.

Shil, I too have read scattered comments like the ones you’ve mentioned about tiger. However it’s a 2 way street. I personally never doubted he would get his speed back ( maybe not the extra gear) but more how sustainable it would be and if he would benefit from a strict shorter schedule. My biggest concern that I shared with you months ago was and is his short game (putting included) and his lack of edge on anyone on tour. I’m really happy he’s finally using better equipment and embracing trackman. Playing in the Bahamas heat versus cold muggy Cali weather will tell us a lot about his game. I know you think it’s impossible that he’s flawed or has weaknesses in his game but he does and let’s not forget Father Time, he waits for no one. Expressing a concern over his current weaknesses that crept into his game over the last decade is fair game, I don’t see how you don’t feel this way. Are you so sure he will prove anyone who dares question his durability or game wrong? Can we ignore what happened the last decade?What in your opinion is fair to be concerned with or critical of in this comeback attempt? Your last sentence makes anyone on here who has doubts about what he can accomplish from here on out as the desperate ones on here, however tiger fans and loyalists can’t even engage in the smallest amount of cautious criticism or cautious optimism. It’s like they woke up from a coma they were in since 2008 and think nothing’s changed. I think your post was purposely coy, like saying your side does it but mine doesn’t! Sure there are people wishing him bad stuff but most is reasonable concerns and issues with his game. Belated happy new year to you

I still maintain that normal criticism is and always will be just fine, I doubt that is what Shilgy has problems with. Its the "LOL hes done"s and the "He has no mental toughness anymore"s that are obnoxious because they aren't criticisms, they're just baseless hyperbole because some people loving seeing the mighty fall and are probably frustrated that he refuses to stay down.

I've voiced plenty of simple concerns, primarily after his second comeback when I said that I thought he'd end up right back on his a$$ again if he kept swinging his driver like the ball was John Feinstein, no one other than Feinstein had a problem with that! :D

Its just the people that waltz in to conversations, stir the pot with an inflammatory remark, and then snicker at everyone while they insist that they can't take "criticism".

Well thats where we disagree.I bolded the part of your post that seems to bother alot of Tiger fans but not me.Its actually a valid assessment / opinion based on the last 5/10 years. You dont like it but its not crazy to say these things.Do some of the guys here saying that hate tiger? sure but its till a valid statement.if he proves these people wrong its win win for you , no? but if he doesnt will you budge of your position thats its blasphemous to say Tiger is done? thats the real question.
Im wishing him well but based on what ive seen the last 10 years im not optimistic. I hope he proves me wrong

Its a perfectly valid position to have, but expressed in a non-arrogant fashion like you just did, not in the dismissive "I know better than you" pot stirring way that the trolls do. This is in no way a Tiger specific thing mind you, i've done quite a bit of mediation/resolution both professionally and personally and there is a world of difference between these two deliveries. Saying "I'm wishing him well but based on what i've seen the last 10 years i'm not optimistic. I hope he proves me wrong" says that you've considered the evidence and are open to different outcomes. Saying things like "Its pathetic, he needs to retire" or the aforementioned "LOL he's done" has all the 14 year old arrogance that comes with not being interested in other views while being so sure of your own that you're willing to basically call everyone else an idiot in your nuance-free disagreement. However I do find myself thinking those same things about Rory, but that is because I do not particularly like the guy based various things he's done and said publicly and I recognize that those feelings are my own personal bias and not an evaluation of his skill, so instead I just make snide remarks instead of attempting to spread my opinion as gospel. :D

My position on whether or not Tiger is done will change WHEN Tiger is done. I am not so arrogant that I think I know better than him and his doctors, so I disagree that it is a valid statement as you put it because he clearly isn't done. You and I basically share the same opinion here, i'm not terribly optimistic either and I think that this is his last shot as far as his back is concerned which was something I said after he went down last time and still think.

Edited by Valtiel, 14 January 2018 - 05:17 AM.

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#81 Shilgy

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

View Postlowheel, on 14 January 2018 - 04:35 AM, said:



I guess my real question Shil, is why does this seem to bother you so personally? I might be wrong but your post basically has you in knots in anticipation of what ifs. This is tiger 7.0, if he plays 10-12-15 events this year and doesnt win but is healthy i would call that a success.If hes competitive, great.If he wins even better but you cant control what people will say. His legacy is already cemented with legendary play. its all gravy from here on out. thats why i wasnt emotionally invested last year after the hero or this year after the hero because like you said. we dont know however making comments like "hes done", etc.. is not offside in my opinion because winning in your 40s is no easy feat as history has shown us.
members at my club have made a pool at my home course with about 4000$ in the pot about tigers upcoming season. All kinds of prop bets, predictions, top 10s, cuts made etc.. so alot of people are rooting as you said in both directions, pretty wild.
Guess I woke up on the wrong side this morning. I don't take it personally any more with Tiger than I do with DJ or anyone else that gets the constant snide comments from the peanut gallery. Evidently they have been perfect citizens their entire life and have had nothing to overcome. To constantly bring up crap from a decade ago is juvenile. But that's the way of the anonymous internet posts.
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#82 Ignatius Reilly

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:53 AM

Fun thread!

A couple of thoughts:

This thread and the one on DJ seem overly concerned with ball speed.  As others have said, it's not a long drive contest.  It helps, but there are a ton of big hitters who haven't put it all together.  When I read about the ball speed I didn't think "awesome, he's back!", I thought "with his history, this seems like a big mistake".

The only reason for bringing up 10 years ago is that it was the tipping point in his career.  He came out of the gates unbelievably hot, and played at a spectacular level until "that day".  And it's never been the same since.  IMO it was the thing that shook his confidence.  It's not that he has "no mental toughness any more", it's that he has a significant amount less.  His toughness was legendary and one of the (many) critical pillars to his success.  Anyone who thinks a decade ago is irrelevant is mistaken.

Tiger's age can't be ignored either.  He's another 10 years older and no athlete gets better in those 10 years.  His kids are growing up, and kids and family are important.  It gets harder to put them aside while you do your own thing.  He may also be getting tired of the whole grind.  For the first half of his career he could practice with the greatest coaches, hit hundreds of balls a day, and be rewarded with a record-setting career.  Now he goes out and practices and practices and practices and hits a thousand balls and..... gets hit with back issues while getting mostly lackluster results.  At some point he may think "why bother".  He's still young and very rich.  He could do other things with his remaining time.

Does that mean he's "done"?  Depends on how you define it.  I was surprised by how well he played at the Hero.  He can probably win again, but I doubt it will be many and I think majors have gone out of reach.

Stay tuned, there will be a status update on his career on or around the 26th or 28th of this month.

I have absolutely no idea what to expect.

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#83 seve1972

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:00 PM

View PostValtiel, on 14 January 2018 - 01:48 AM, said:

View Postsdandrea, on 13 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Too bad golf isn't a ball speed contest. Tiger still has to score low to win.

This isn't being pointed out because people think its a contest, its because there were plenty of people that said "Welp, no more distance for Tiger" when they heard "fusion". Being able to generate 180 mph+ off the tee after half a dozen back surgeries and a hefty painkiller addiction is pretty freakin' remarkable whether or not he ever sees the top of a leader board on Sunday again.

This^^^^

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#84 Holy Moses

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

184 MPH ball speed is more than I thought Tiger would ever have again, but until his short game improves it won't matter. Tiger threw away 7-10 shots at the Hero and until that improves, he won't be able to win again.
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#85 lowheel

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:07 PM

View PostShilgy, on 14 January 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View Postlowheel, on 14 January 2018 - 04:35 AM, said:



I guess my real question Shil, is why does this seem to bother you so personally? I might be wrong but your post basically has you in knots in anticipation of what ifs. This is tiger 7.0, if he plays 10-12-15 events this year and doesnt win but is healthy i would call that a success.If hes competitive, great.If he wins even better but you cant control what people will say. His legacy is already cemented with legendary play. its all gravy from here on out. thats why i wasnt emotionally invested last year after the hero or this year after the hero because like you said. we dont know however making comments like "hes done", etc.. is not offside in my opinion because winning in your 40s is no easy feat as history has shown us.
members at my club have made a pool at my home course with about 4000$ in the pot about tigers upcoming season. All kinds of prop bets, predictions, top 10s, cuts made etc.. so alot of people are rooting as you said in both directions, pretty wild.
Guess I woke up on the wrong side this morning. I don't take it personally any more with Tiger than I do with DJ or anyone else that gets the constant snide comments from the peanut gallery. Evidently they have been perfect citizens their entire life and have had nothing to overcome. To constantly bring up crap from a decade ago is juvenile. But that's the way of the anonymous internet posts.
Carry on....

Lol, I feel ya man. At least you’re honest! It’s the internet man, everybody judges everybody like their stuff don’t stink. You and I have had this discussion many times about tiger the man and tiger the golfer. People mix the 2 but I don’t. I personally don’t care about fire hydrant/ marital infedelity crap, DUI stuff. I’m just glad he didn’t kill anybody or himself. I’ve worked events he played in from 99 all the way to 2007 and my only gripe was how he treated people at the events, (volunteers and staff ) That doesn’t affect how I see him as a player though, not one bit. Again though it’s the internet, home of hot takes and put downs. Twitter is a dumpster fire. I don’t partake in social media for that exact reason. No civil discourse or fun arguments anymore. Then again guys like you make this site enjoyable, we’ve had a ton of back and forths without insulting each other or vowing to never speak to each other again. I love humour but I’m also on your side with the juvenile stuff. If it’s original you can’t help but giggle but some stuff is rinse and repeat. I hear it in real life too, one of my students still says to this day that Jordan Spieth is and I quote “flukey and lucky”, “gets all the breaks” “his luck will run out eventually”. The man pays me for lessons so I don’t argue, just smile and go along with it. Imagine the delusion and hate for spieth  it takes to say that? It’s everywhere man. Even when it gets heated between us I always enjoy the chats. Hope you’re having a good weekend


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#86 puttingmatt

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:34 PM

View PostIgnatius Reilly, on 14 January 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

Fun thread!

A couple of thoughts:

This thread and the one on DJ seem overly concerned with ball speed.  As others have said, it's not a long drive contest.  It helps, but there are a ton of big hitters who haven't put it all together.  When I read about the ball speed I didn't think "awesome, he's back!", I thought "with his history, this seems like a big mistake".

The only reason for bringing up 10 years ago is that it was the tipping point in his career.  He came out of the gates unbelievably hot, and played at a spectacular level until "that day".  And it's never been the same since.  IMO it was the thing that shook his confidence.  It's not that he has "no mental toughness any more", it's that he has a significant amount less.  His toughness was legendary and one of the (many) critical pillars to his success.  Anyone who thinks a decade ago is irrelevant is mistaken.

Tiger's age can't be ignored either.  He's another 10 years older and no athlete gets better in those 10 years.  His kids are growing up, and kids and family are important.  It gets harder to put them aside while you do your own thing.  He may also be getting tired of the whole grind.  For the first half of his career he could practice with the greatest coaches, hit hundreds of balls a day, and be rewarded with a record-setting career.  Now he goes out and practices and practices and practices and hits a thousand balls and..... gets hit with back issues while getting mostly lackluster results.  At some point he may think "why bother".  He's still young and very rich.  He could do other things with his remaining time.

Does that mean he's "done"?  Depends on how you define it.  I was surprised by how well he played at the Hero.  He can probably win again, but I doubt it will be many and I think majors have gone out of reach.

Stay tuned, there will be a status update on his career on or around the 26th or 28th of this month.

I have absolutely no idea what to expect.
That Day?  What is That Day?
Callaway XR 16 Pro Speeder 661
TEE CB Pro F2 #3 Kuro Kage
TEE CB Pro F2 #5 Kuro Kage
Callaway Big Bertha 815 Hybrid Speeder 865
  Callaway X Forged 18  N.S. Pro Modus 3 Tour 105
  Callaway MD Forged Wedges, 50*, and 56* DG 200
  Evnroll ER2
  Taylormade TPX

  Play More... Practice Less...

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#87 jorvidas

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:29 PM

Anyone saying last ten years proves he can't play has high standards. He's 14/92 from 2009 - 2018 which is at minimum a good win rate.

The 2014 - 2018 years he's 0/19 and hasn't really looked healthy at any point, even when playing.

I think it's fair to ask if he can stay healthy. Fair to ask if he lost anything with all that lost practice. Fair to ask if he can still practice hard without getting hurt (I think his back hurting kept him from practicing his short game much and that's when we saw all the issues personally). It also seems extremely reasonable to think if he can stay healthy and practice hard that he has some wins left in the tank.

Personally golf is more fun for me with him in it and he seems to have had a rough few years recently. I hope he gets it back. I'd settle for just him staying healthy.

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