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When Equipment Has Gone Too Far


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#61 sdandrea

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:29 PM

As a 13 handicapper, I am the last guy on the planet that would say golf has become too easy due to equipment technology advancement, but the older I get, the more I appreciate what it took to play well with the older stuff.  So much so, that I am getting into hickory golf. My modern set is Eye 2 irons along with a Maple Blondie PING ZING driver.  I used to be a new-clubs-every-year-fan-boy, but as I age, am more into finding out how well I can play "golf" instead of "golf equipment".  Could be a geezer thing.

I don't think it matters how you define "too-far" because the market will probably always want new and improved.

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#62 mahonie

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:37 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 08 January 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

Yeah, this thread is great.  Of course, everyone yelled at anyone in that other thread who said newer drivers were better.  Now equipment is ruining golf.  Nice.  It can't be both guys.

Dustin has won 17 times in roughly a decade on tour.  Too easy?!  No.  What happened in his other roughly 278 events?

Its the way golf is covered on TV.  They don't show the guy struggling to make the cut or the guy +8 (and Day, Spieth, Johnson have all been those guys).  They only show the guys playing well, so viewers think that's how all the PGA Tour guys play.  No.  If you put 160 of the best golfers in the world on a course, somebody is going to break 65 a couple times.

Finally, bomb and gouge isn't "new".  Its always been the best way to play, we just now have statistical evidence to back it up.  Its just a co-incidence that Jack dominated when he was 30 yards longer than everyone else.  There was no bomb and gouge back then.  It was a shotmaker's game!  *hard eye roll*

Go watch the Tour in person and find a guy grinding out a 72 on a 7400 yard course and then tell me its too easy.  What a bunch of nonsense.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was boring.
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#63 mahonie

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 04:41 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

History aside, the performance is better with the new stuff. I don't really care why somebody started making better clubs and balls, just glad they do make them and I don't have to use the old crap.

Rubber band windings? Wooden clubhead? Give me a break!

Call me nostalgic (or a masochist), but I used to enjoy the game more and got more satisfaction out of it playing that old crap.
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#64 bladehunter

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:15 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 08 January 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

View PostWriggles, on 08 January 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments.  I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice."  That was back in 1998, for over $600.  Believe me, I sliced them.

Never believed that pro hype after that.

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

No and no.


Oh sure it would.  Lol.  Side hill lie.  Maybe in the rough.  Chopping it out and trying to roll it up.  Much more drama than drive -tap in for eagle.  Kind of a joke honestly.
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#65 Bye

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 05:52 PM

Watching The Taylormade promo the other day the thing at stood out was the players reaction to the new tech was great we can swing harder at it.

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#66 North Butte

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:00 PM

If I had the strengthand speed of those guys I’d also want something I could swing hard at.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#67 TinCupping

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:05 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

History aside, the performance is better with the new stuff. I don't really care why somebody started making better clubs and balls, just glad they do make them and I don't have to use the old crap.

Rubber band windings? Wooden clubhead? Give me a break!

I have failed to read where it said you had to use it. If you feel you have to play something that the .01% use thats your problem. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A good swing can use anything with of course a loss of distance. When I play modern drivers I move back a set of tees. Old, I move up. My thing doesnt get any bigger or smaller one way or another. I enjoy to play golf not “hey bro what club didya use”.
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#68 TinCupping

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:08 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 January 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm of several minds on this:

DJ is a fantastic driver the ball. He outclassed the field.
The course setup is almost pornographic in how it so favors a bombed drive.
Impressive to see 400+ yards but it's sugar high impressive and fleeting.
Would a DJ even exist if the 460cc ti driver did not? <b>(Greg Norman comes to mind first)</b>
If duffers could get another 50 yards off the tee via the tech, would their cap really change? <b>(90% of duffers need to move up a box or two)</b>
The essence of golf is grace over difficulty, why is making it easier, "fun"?
Does the PGA think I'm going to tune in to watch guys chipping in for eagle or that ratings will go bonkers from it?

Now get off my lawn......:)

Edited by TinCupping, 08 January 2018 - 06:09 PM.

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#69 North Butte

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:18 PM

View PostTinCupping, on 08 January 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

History aside, the performance is better with the new stuff. I don't really care why somebody started making better clubs and balls, just glad they do make them and I don't have to use the old crap.

Rubber band windings? Wooden clubhead? Give me a break!

I have failed to read where it said you had to use it. If you feel you have to play something that the .01% use thats your problem. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. A good swing can use anything with of course a loss of distance. When I play modern drivers I move back a set of tees. Old, I move up. My thing doesnt get any bigger or smaller one way or another. I enjoy to play golf not “hey bro what club didya use”.

???
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#70 Halebopp

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:56 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 08 January 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Let's see DJ in an post tournament interview (which he won) states how difficult it was to hit offline shots using the new driver he's paid to promote and now the internet claims golf is "too easy".  

When I can hit the drives DJ hits then maybe we can say golf is too easy, until then it's simply called, "marketing".
I'll never forget how excited and happy Phil was after winning the Phoenix Open with his new Razr Fit Xtreme driver, singing the praises like any hack out there thinking they've found The Driver to cure all problems.

Soon after Phil showed up at Augusta with the Frankenwood, the RFX driver was long gone and all forgotten.

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#71 Jwin323

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:12 PM

View Postjdmorris1980, on 07 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

He hits his driver better than the field 90% of the time. As for what he said about the driver......he kind of gets paid to say that exact thing whether it’s truthful or not.
If that driver wasn’t available to everyone then he’d have an advantage but that isn’t the case. Everyone can play the new M, some choose not to for guaranteed money with a club contract, but everyone (even you and I) can use it. There were a lot more shots hit without driver (irons/wedges/putts) over the 4 days that attributed to the win as well.

Agreed. Anyone can use any club, so if something is perceived to be a real advantage, it shouldn’t be for long. With the all that goes into custom fitting and building of clubs, if you’re not playing an entire set optimized to your own game, you’re just choking your chicken out there.

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#72 Nard_S

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:20 PM

View PostTinCupping, on 08 January 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 January 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

I'm of several minds on this:

DJ is a fantastic driver the ball. He outclassed the field.
The course setup is almost pornographic in how it so favors a bombed drive.
Impressive to see 400+ yards but it's sugar high impressive and fleeting.
Would a DJ even exist if the 460cc ti driver did not? <b>(Greg Norman comes to mind first)</b>
If duffers could get another 50 yards off the tee via the tech, would their cap really change? <b>(90% of duffers need to move up a box or two)</b>
The essence of golf is grace over difficulty, why is making it easier, "fun"?
Does the PGA think I'm going to tune in to watch guys chipping in for eagle or that ratings will go bonkers from it?

Now get off my lawn...... :)

Think Norman at The Open, the year he won & shot 62, was best driving of the golf ball i ever watched, even more impressive than Tiger w/ steel shafted Cobra at Augusta. DJ's great but Norman was epic in that one.

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#73 North Butte

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:39 PM

So let’s sort this out.

A titanium driver outperforms a wooden one, period. It just hits the ball farther and straighter and lets the player swing harder.

So Greg Norman outdrove 150 other guys who were USING AWOODEN DIVER JUST LIKE HE DID and it’s ths most amazing thing you’ve ever seen.

But when Dustin Johnson outdrives 150 other guys who are USING A TITANIUM DRIVER JUST LIKE HE IS that is not impressive at all because the drivers USED BY THE ENTIRE FIELD are better than what was used half a lifetime ago.

You lot make it sound like it is Dustin Johnson and his M4 competing against Greg Norman and his persimmon. I guess back then there was some long since dead Grandpa Simpson whinging that Greg Norman’s driving means nothing because he had a steel shaft and didn’t have to deal with hickory whipping around on him.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#74 hybrid25

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM

Technology has improved the performance of everything we use today,not just sports. Maybe we shouldn't use anesthesia, just bite down on a stick. All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is. Some people just enjoy living in the past, and that's okay if that's what they like to do, but I like the new technology that makes life better. Look at Indy race cars, maybe we should go back about 50 years in automobile technology and make them race with that only.

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#75 ChronicSlicer

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:57 PM

I keep waiting for clubs that auto correct swing paths. Maybe then I`ll hit more fairways.


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#76 ChronicSlicer

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is.

How has basketball been influenced by technology in the last 50 years or baseball? All I can think of is padding in a baseball glove might be a little better now? And steroid use I guess.

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#77 Happyday_J

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:06 PM

As a 26 year old mini tour player, please allow me to offer my take on all this, and I apologize if it gets lengthy....

To me the great shots that I remember pulling off was a "shot", meaning hitting the trajectory, the shape that window everyone talks about. Whether its skipping in a low fade to a back hole location or launching a moon ball draw around the corner. That's where I get my enjoyment ballstriking-wise. Now I understand that art is lost among many of my generation.

Regarding the equipment, it always seems to come down to two discussions, drivers and the ball. First off, the ball, does it go to far MAAYYBE, does it spin less, yes it does, but these statements how you can't curve the ball is false. Tell everyone 30 yard slicer the ball doesn't curve, I dont have Bubba clubhead speed but I can move it. I think what happened was during the transition in the golf balls, the tour players "feels" were off. The old feel for a 5 yard draw would barely move it, so they would complain the ball doesn't move, it does, their feels just had to change.

Regarding distance and drivers, I never saw them play live (wasn't born yet), however I have heard numerous stories of Arnold flying the green at Cherry Hill, or Jack launching it over the back of 18 at St. Andrews. All the best if each generation, Jones, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman, Tiger, (choose your modern guy), have had a distance advantage over their peers. I have read of hogan winning the PGA long drive comps with pokes of 340. Those numbers have always been there. Jack played with so much reserve, he had those numbers when he wanted them.

Now for my concerns:

- Yes distance has stalled last few years, however I think there is another jump coming, and it doesn't get mentioned, heres why:
   - average attack angle on PGA tour is still down, now we have a generation of players coming with their stock swing attack angles positive, there will be more guys bunched on the higher end of the scale then there are now

- All this talk about roll back, it wont work. Golf courses have adapted to the yardages, by their set up. Everyone knows Augusta so here's my example, yes there are some holes where Jack's era hit 7 irons in where they are using 9 irons now. Yet here's the thing, first of all, they are essentially the same club, loft-wise. Secondly, Jack's era the greens were slower, softer and the ball spun more making it easier to stop. Now you have firmer, faster greens with a ball the spins less, being hit by a club with the same loft, technically speaking the guys now are at a disadvantage to yester-year if you move them further back.
- you can't just call for roll back without multiple changes in course agronomy, course set up, course designs, that'll be a costly affair as well.

My solution:
- make the ball a fraction bigger, I mean a fraction. Thats it. It will spin ever so slightly more making it slightly more difficult to control. Not so much off the tee (fitting fixes that), but on approach shots, putting more of a premium in being in the fairway, thus dialing back the aggression. Force players to hit "shots" again. You wont see monumental changes in driving distance but I think it's that subtle tweak that will dial everything back ever so slightly.

or on some layouts that are getting obsolete:

- graduated rough, however instead of width-wise off the fairway, do it down the fairway. Maybe tempting them to lay back. Remember, golf is a game of misses for these guys, and if the penalty is the same at 280 as 320, they might as well go. Force them to weigh risk vs reward.

Edited by Happyday_J, 08 January 2018 - 10:22 PM.


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#78 mosesgolf

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:13 PM

I don't think golf would be that fun if I had to play with those mini persimmon drivers along with hard to hit blades and those super spinny Titleist Tour Balata balls.    Been there done that and I'll take today's game 100 times out of 100.  

Back in the day the pro bowlers tour had higher tv ratings than golf.  Be careful what you wish for.
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#79 tmartin89

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:50 PM

The problem is the newer equipment has helped the average golfer more than any other level. If you the limit the technology then it makes it less fun for your weekend warrior. Only option would be to have different technology for tour guys than your average golfer. I would rather see weekend golfers have more fun because the technology is better than limit technology just because its getting too easy for the tour guys. I still think the level of play on tour and the depth of the tour players isn't all down to improved technology.
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#80 bladehunter

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:07 PM

View PostHappyday_J, on 08 January 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

As a 26 year old mini tour player, please allow me to offer my take on all this, and I apologize if it gets lengthy....

To me the great shots that I remember pulling off was a "shot", meaning hitting the trajectory, the shape that window everyone talks about. Whether its skipping in a low fade to a back hole location or launching a moon ball draw around the corner. That's where I get my enjoyment ballstriking-wise. Now I understand that art is lost among many of my generation.

Regarding the equipment, it always seems to come down to two discussions, drivers and the ball. First off, the ball, does it go to far MAAYYBE, does it spin less, yes it does, but these statements how you can't curve the ball is false. Tell everyone 30 yard slicer the ball doesn't curve, I dont have Bubba clubhead speed but I can move it. I think what happened was during the transition in the golf balls, the tour players "feels" were off. The old feel for a 5 yard draw would barely move it, so they would complain the ball doesn't move, it does, their feels just had to change.

Regarding distance and drivers, I never saw them play live (wasn't born yet), however I have heard numerous stories of Arnold flying the green at Cherry Hill, or Jack launching it over the back of 18 at St. Andrews. All the best if each generation, Jones, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman, Tiger, (choose your modern guy), have had a distance advantage over their peers. I have read of hogan winning the PGA long drive comps with pokes of 340. Those numbers have always been there. Jack played with so much reserve, he had those numbers when he wanted them.

Now for my concerns:

- Yes distance has stalled last few years, however I think there is another jump coming, and it doesn't get mentioned, heres why:
   - average attack angle on PGA tour is still down, now we have a generation of players coming with their stock swing attack angles positive, there will be more guys bunched on the higher end of the scale then there are now

- All this talk about roll back, it wont work. Golf courses have adapted to the yardages, by their set up. Everyone knows Augusta so here's my example, yes there are some holes where Jack's era hit 7 irons in where they are using 9 irons now. Yet here's the thing, first of all, they are essentially the same club, loft-wise. Secondly, Jack's era the greens were slower, softer and the ball spun more making it easier to stop. Now you have firmer, faster greens with a ball the spins less, being hit by a club with the same loft, technically speaking the guys now are at a disadvantage to yester-year if you move them further back.
- you can't just call for roll back without multiple changes in course agronomy, course set up, course designs, that'll be a costly affair as well.

My solution:
- make the ball a fraction bigger, I mean a fraction. Thats it. It will spin ever so slightly more making it slightly more difficult to control. Not so much off the tee (fitting fixes that), but on approach shots, putting more of a premium in being in the fairway, thus dialing back the aggression. Force players to hit "shots" again. You wont see monumental changes in driving distance but I think it's that subtle tweak that will dial everything back ever so slightly.

or on some layouts that are getting obsolete:

- graduated rough, however instead of width-wise off the fairway, do it down the fairway. Maybe tempting them to lay back. Remember, golf is a game of misses for these guys, and if the penalty is the same at 280 as 320, they might as well go. Force them to weigh risk vs reward.



excellent post....

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#81 hybrid25

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:10 PM

View PostChronicSlicer, on 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is.

How has basketball been influenced by technology in the last 50 years or baseball? All I can think of is padding in a baseball glove might be a little better now? And steroid use I guess.
  I suppose you use Hickory shafts? Balata balls? etc

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#82 bladehunter

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:26 PM

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

View PostChronicSlicer, on 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is.

How has basketball been influenced by technology in the last 50 years or baseball? All I can think of is padding in a baseball glove might be a little better now? And steroid use I guess.
  I suppose you use Hickory shafts? Balata balls? etc


comments like that do nothing for this discussion.... it doesnt have to be all or nothing... nobody anywhere has said go back to balata...
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hows that for brand loyalty??

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#83 JStang

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:31 PM

Wide fairways, huge downhill holes, and a lot of helping winds. I would love to see the stats from 2017 compared to this year. Probably not much different depending on the wind.
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#84 bigeasy

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:57 PM

Their are horses for courses and this course is DJs!
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#85 Shilgy

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:58 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 January 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 08 January 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

View PostWriggles, on 08 January 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

DJ or any other pro golfer could go to the Goodwill, assemble a bag of the cheapest, beat up clubs imaginable, and win tournaments.  I bought a set of King Cobra woods that Shark Norman touted as being "literally impossible to slice."  That was back in 1998, for over $600.  Believe me, I sliced them.

Never believed that pro hype after that.

"A good swing will result in a good shot, no matter what."

They may win tournaments but they wouldn’t be reaching a 433 yard hole with a steel-shafted persimmon-headed driver and a balata ball.

Yep, that's why they use Titanium and Urethane instead.

Would that hole have been more interesting to watch if the longest player in the field hit a 260-yard drive that couldn't catch the downslope? Or if he play exactly the same shot from tees 75 yards forward?

No and no.


Oh sure it would.  Lol.  Side hill lie.  Maybe in the rough.  Chopping it out and trying to roll it up.  Much more drama than drive -tap in for eagle.  Kind of a joke honestly.
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#86 hybrid25

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:08 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 January 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

View PostChronicSlicer, on 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is.

How has basketball been influenced by technology in the last 50 years or baseball? All I can think of is padding in a baseball glove might be a little better now? And steroid use I guess.
  I suppose you use Hickory shafts? Balata balls? etc


comments like that do nothing for this discussion.... it doesnt have to be all or nothing... nobody anywhere has said go back to balata...
it simply states that you must like some of the technology if you do not play the old equipment. I like the new equipment, keep it coming. A golfer can stop buying it whenever they want nobody forces anybody to buy anything. Bottom line is I don't think technology has taken the game too far rather it makes it quite enjoyable and fun to play trying new things

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#87 bladehunter

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:21 AM

View Posthybrid25, on 09 January 2018 - 12:08 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 January 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 11:10 PM, said:

View PostChronicSlicer, on 08 January 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 08 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

All sports has been improved with technology, or at least changed by it, and that's just the way life is.

How has basketball been influenced by technology in the last 50 years or baseball? All I can think of is padding in a baseball glove might be a little better now? And steroid use I guess.
  I suppose you use Hickory shafts? Balata balls? etc


comments like that do nothing for this discussion.... it doesnt have to be all or nothing... nobody anywhere has said go back to balata...
it simply states that you must like some of the technology if you do not play the old equipment. I like the new equipment, keep it coming. A golfer can stop buying it whenever they want nobody forces anybody to buy anything. Bottom line is I don't think technology has taken the game too far rather it makes it quite enjoyable and fun to play trying new things

not really true... if you play competitively you have to keep up with the arms race....  you cant play a higher spin driver ball combo and keep up.... I get what you are saying for the average Joe...But i also know that the younger player coming up is seemingly born hitting up on a driver 4 degrees and therefore maxing out on his speed etc... while My self who hits down to at best a neutral AoA with driver doesnt see the benefit of the new tech..... change my swing you say...oh sure.... if only it were that easy.

Ive said this before in other threads about this.... Im generally thought of as selfish for my views on this.... But the other side of the coin is just as selfish if not more so...  They absolutely want their cake and eat it too... and the oems are doing a good job of making that possible for the middle to higher handicap.... which is why im all for Bifurcation.... we all could have what we want that way
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hows that for brand loyalty??

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#88 Nard_S

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:35 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 January 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

So let’s sort this out.

A titanium driver outperforms a wooden one, period. It just hits the ball farther and straighter and lets the player swing harder.

So Greg Norman outdrove 150 other guys who were USING AWOODEN DIVER JUST LIKE HE DID and it’s ths most amazing thing you’ve ever seen.

But when Dustin Johnson outdrives 150 other guys who are USING A TITANIUM DRIVER JUST LIKE HE IS that is not impressive at all because the drivers USED BY THE ENTIRE FIELD are better than what was used half a lifetime ago.

You lot make it sound like it is Dustin Johnson and his M4 competing against Greg Norman and his persimmon. I guess back then there was some long since dead Grandpa Simpson whinging that Greg Norman’s driving means nothing because he had a steel shaft and didn’t have to deal with hickory whipping around on him.

Norman was splitting tight fairways in 25-30 mph wind using a persimmon club and a super high spinning ball.

He beat the field, he beat the elements but because the equipment, he still could not over run the course. No one could, they can now.

That's what's missing in  tour level golf, the elements of wind,and curse of spin. and the risk reward of going hard off the tee with them as a hazard.

Boy, would I love roll back for those alone.

Guys today play in better conditions and with better equipment, a smart bomb ball so comparing them to another generation is apples to oranges when it comes to it. They're great, but not necessarily greater.
,
IMHO, Tiger is the only cat who's game truly transcends the generations. Guy checked every box. DJ at 33 has 17 wins, Tiger had 70 by then.

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#89 8thehardway

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 02:41 AM

View PostPomps, on 07 January 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

This argument likely has come up with every generation of advancement i.e. Hickory to steel to graphite, etc. or persimmon to steel to you get the point. After winning the Sentry, DJ notably remarked how hard it was to hit it offline with the M4 and the twist face. Yes, DJ is a freak and the player the most important variable. However, at what point should the equipment forgiveness stop correcting deficiencies of the player in order to get a true test of the best players. This is the case that in previous generations, the equipment didn't help as much and only the best ball strikers won the majority of times. Today, do we know the best players? Are some guys only decent ball strikers but are being saved by equipment to compete with great ball strikers? Is that how tournament golf should be? If so, how far does it go?

I agree with jll62's post #11, neatly summarized in his opening statement "To me, the old tech didn't identify the best players; it just identified a certain type of player whose game fit that era's equipment the best."

That said, here's an idea you might find satisfying and one I'd love to see come to pass: the Era Tournament

Identify equipment (balls and clubs) and course specs typical of a different era of golf, build the course, make the clubs and let the pros and mini-tour players have a go at it. They'd play clubs and balls from Jack's era or Hogan's or maybe Sarazen's on a course representative of that time. No electronics, no logos, just golf.
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#90 Bye

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:18 AM

View PostHappyday_J, on 08 January 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

As a 26 year old mini tour player, please allow me to offer my take on all this, and I apologize if it gets lengthy....

To me the great shots that I remember pulling off was a "shot", meaning hitting the trajectory, the shape that window everyone talks about. Whether its skipping in a low fade to a back hole location or launching a moon ball draw around the corner. That's where I get my enjoyment ballstriking-wise. Now I understand that art is lost among many of my generation.

Regarding the equipment, it always seems to come down to two discussions, drivers and the ball. First off, the ball, does it go to far MAAYYBE, does it spin less, yes it does, but these statements how you can't curve the ball is false. Tell everyone 30 yard slicer the ball doesn't curve, I dont have Bubba clubhead speed but I can move it. I think what happened was during the transition in the golf balls, the tour players "feels" were off. The old feel for a 5 yard draw would barely move it, so they would complain the ball doesn't move, it does, their feels just had to change.

Regarding distance and drivers, I never saw them play live (wasn't born yet), however I have heard numerous stories of Arnold flying the green at Cherry Hill, or Jack launching it over the back of 18 at St. Andrews. All the best if each generation, Jones, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman, Tiger, (choose your modern guy), have had a distance advantage over their peers. I have read of hogan winning the PGA long drive comps with pokes of 340. Those numbers have always been there. Jack played with so much reserve, he had those numbers when he wanted them.

Now for my concerns:

- Yes distance has stalled last few years, however I think there is another jump coming, and it doesn't get mentioned, heres why:
       - average attack angle on PGA tour is still down, now we have a generation of players coming with their stock swing attack angles positive, there will be more guys bunched on the higher end of the scale then there are now

- All this talk about roll back, it wont work. Golf courses have adapted to the yardages, by their set up. Everyone knows Augusta so here's my example, yes there are some holes where Jack's era hit 7 irons in where they are using 9 irons now. Yet here's the thing, first of all, they are essentially the same club, loft-wise. Secondly, Jack's era the greens were slower, softer and the ball spun more making it easier to stop. Now you have firmer, faster greens with a ball the spins less, being hit by a club with the same loft, technically speaking the guys now are at a disadvantage to yester-year if you move them further back.
    - you can't just call for roll back without multiple changes in course agronomy, course set up, course designs, that'll be a costly affair as well.

My solution:
- make the ball a fraction bigger, I mean a fraction. Thats it. It will spin ever so slightly more making it slightly more difficult to control. Not so much off the tee (fitting fixes that), but on approach shots, putting more of a premium in being in the fairway, thus dialing back the aggression. Force players to hit "shots" again. You wont see monumental changes in driving distance but I think it's that subtle tweak that will dial everything back ever so slightly.

or on some layouts that are getting obsolete:

- graduated rough, however instead of width-wise off the fairway, do it down the fairway. Maybe tempting them to lay back. Remember, golf is a game of misses for these guys, and if the penalty is the same at 280 as 320, they might as well go. Force them to weigh risk vs reward.

Great post, some good stuff in there.

Some have mentioned the next generation but have been shot down.

Everyone talks about average distance but the real clue is in the ball speeds. The average is creaping up all the time and as you say the tour average of AOA is creaping towards 0.

The driving distance hides where a 3 wood or driving iron is used.

They tried making the ball bigger and lighter which is why it's 1.68 diameter rather than 1.62. The OEMS got round it.

Good luck this year, I hope you have a great season.


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