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Help Me Compile Evidence Of Sandbagging To A Tournament Committee


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#1 EmperorPenguin

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:25 PM

We just played a two-day tournament and people are whispering about the low net, a gentleman who played with a course handicap of 5.  The course is about 6400 yards with a course rating of 71 and a slope rating of 131, and we all played the ball down.  For the two rounds, he shot gross 73 (net 68) and 75 (net 70).  People are whispering that this guy is sandbagging, and they are asking me particular questions of his rounds because I was paired up with him on the first day and I witnessed all his shots.  This is what I can report.

Driving distance off the tee: about 240 average.
Fairways hit: I am uncertain.
Greens in regulation: 11
No three-putts and no OB's.

The red flag, to me, is the number of greens he hit.  I don't think 5-cappers hit 11 greens in regulation.  Statistically, how often do 5-cappers hit greens?  Also, what is the probability of 5-cappers to shoot under their handicaps for both days of a two-day tournament?

Sandbagging or good play?


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#2 tmfool

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:37 PM

so he is -4 net for 36 holes...

if he's really a 6 that's makes him -2

how much cash involved?
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#3 Drudersh

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:48 PM

-4 for two days in a net tournament and people are concerned?? He wouldnít sniff the top 10 at my club with that score.

Tell everyone to calm down.
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#4 davep043

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:03 PM

I know I shot 70-76 in a tournament once, and I think I was playing off 5 or 6 at the time.  I know I post all my scores. Good play happens sometimes.  5 handicaps average around 9 GIR, so 11 is just a reasonable good day. If people are worried, just check that he posts the scores as tournament rounds.

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#5 dpb5031

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:39 PM

Another thing to consider and/or check out is what his normal handicap range is.  It could be that he's usually a 2 or 3, but for whatever reason, ran into a spell of poor play (for him) and bumped up to a 5. If this is the case his scores would not surprise me as like most, he reverted back to his mean when it really mattered.

Edited by dpb5031, 04 January 2018 - 08:39 PM.

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#6 Mudguard

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:58 PM

 EmperorPenguin, on 04 January 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

The red flag, to me, is the number of greens he hit.  I don't think 5-cappers hit 11 greens in regulation.  Statistically, how often do 5-cappers hit greens?  Also, what is the probability of 5-cappers to shoot under their handicaps for both days of a two-day tournament?

I would say the lower the handicap, the more likley they are to play close to their handicap, especially if the course is a little easier than they're used to.
I think my index is 5.2 at the moment. Here's my last few hundred GIR.

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#7 davep043

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:00 PM

A quick question, what did the second place guy shoot?

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#8 anth

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:09 PM

Iím a 5 and have floated between 4 and 6 for a long time.

For the last 30 rounds I have averaged 43% GIR.  That must be around 8.  The highest I have had in a round in that time is 12 GIR, and that was twice.  Iíve had 11 4 times.

So I had more than 11 GIR 20% of the time, or once every 5 rounds.

These scores donít seem so outlandish

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#9 pldbryan

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:46 PM

I agree with the above, a net -4 is not insane IMO. Certainly would have to be playing unbelievable golf but it is doable for sure

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#10 EmperorPenguin

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:14 PM

 davep043, on 04 January 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

A quick question, what did the second place guy shoot?

The second place net finished -2.


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#11 pldbryan

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:12 AM

Hard to believe that there was that much talk with that many people over a win by 2 strokes.

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#12 br61

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 07:37 AM

 Drudersh, on 04 January 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

-4 for two days in a net tournament and people are concerned?? He wouldn't sniff the top 10 at my club with that score.

Tell everyone to calm down.

Same at my home club. Anyone can have a good stretch of golf.
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#13 davep043

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:22 AM

I don't see a 2-stroke win being an issue.  However, if your club is concerned enough, they could adopt Dean Knuth's Tournament Point System:
http://popeofslope.c...stem/index.html

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#14 dpb5031

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:23 AM

One of the most frustrating things about dealing with sandbaggers is that in most cases, it's nearly impossible to prove definitively.  If a guy plays most of his rounds recreationally with nothing on the line how can anyone know with reasonable certainty that he's putting forth his best effort to shoot the lowest score possible?

I've seen it all too often.  Guys that play with their wives, where no shot matters, out there slapping it around and posting scores that are the result of a half-hearted effort.  Then they enter a tourney, put their game face on, and it's a different story.

It doesn't take much to get "the edge."  A stroke or two is often the difference between cashing or not. One doesnt even have to be very clever to pull it off...


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#15 Mitchell

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:41 AM

Guys should practice more and whine less over loss to those kind of scores, especially since not out of range of probability for that handicap.

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#16 cwglum

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:07 AM

 EmperorPenguin, on 04 January 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

We just played a two-day tournament and people are whispering about the low net, a gentleman who played with a course handicap of 5.  The course is about 6400 yards with a course rating of 71 and a slope rating of 131, and we all played the ball down.  For the two rounds, he shot gross 73 (net 68) and 75 (net 70).  People are whispering that this guy is sandbagging, and they are asking me particular questions of his rounds because I was paired up with him on the first day and I witnessed all his shots.  This is what I can report.

Driving distance off the tee: about 240 average.
Fairways hit: I am uncertain.
Greens in regulation: 11
No three-putts and no OB's.

The red flag, to me, is the number of greens he hit.  I don't think 5-cappers hit 11 greens in regulation.  Statistically, how often do 5-cappers hit greens?  Also, what is the probability of 5-cappers to shoot under their handicaps for both days of a two-day tournament?

Sandbagging or good play?

Doesn't seem like much to go on here.  As a 5-cap, getting hot for 2 days and shooting in low-mid 70s isn't shocking.  Some guys play better in tourneys than in regular day in day out rounds of golf.  Handicaps are best 10 of previous 20, so if he's a 5 ... he's got scores lower than 5 in his index rating.

For me, this is why 'net' tournaments & leagues are a waste of time in my opinion.  No matter who wins, there will be groups that second guess the ability of the player.

Edited by cwglum, 05 January 2018 - 09:12 AM.


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#17 dmac4g

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:11 AM

Those scores aren't even close to sandbag worthy.  Come talk to use when a 15 goes for a net 58.  Then you have a legitimate gripe!

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#18 TheGeekGolfer

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:34 AM

This doesn't sound like sandbagging to me. So, this guy shot a couple shots below his hdcp each day. That will almost always happen. That's how someone wins a tournament. That's what it's (the hdcp system) is designed to do. The person who plays better than their hdcp is supposed to win. Otherwise, just all turn on your average score and go home and watch football.


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#19 davep043

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:09 AM

 TheGeekGolfer, on 05 January 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

This doesn't sound like sandbagging to me. So, this guy shot a couple shots below his hdcp each day. That will almost always happen. That's how someone wins a tournament.
This is it, exactly.  If you don't play better than "normal", you're stuck with the rest of the pack.

Makes me wonder about the individuals who are complaining.  Is it sour grapes, because they didn't win?  Is it someone who doesn't quite understand the statistics around handicaps?  Or maybe is it someone who's known this guy for a long time, and thinks his handicap is too high?  Was it a tournament at a private club, or open to the general public?

(Edited in)  Was it some other sandbagger, angry that he'd been "out-sandbagged"?  I've found that cheaters are much more suspicious than honest people, they seem to think that everyone cheats like they do.

Edited by davep043, 05 January 2018 - 11:28 AM.


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#20 QEight

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:14 AM

I wonder how people are supposed to lower their scores if not by playing under the HC...

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#21 MrJones

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:22 AM

11 GIR for a 5 handicap isn't unreasonable at all. Only anecdotal but I hit around that number on most of my decent rounds.

Edited by MrJones, 05 January 2018 - 11:27 AM.

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#22 LeoLeo99

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:49 AM

I was assuming the guy was shooting in the 60s two rounds in a row to cause cries of sandbagging from a 5.  

Playing better than your average.  That's how you win tournaments.

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#23 Shilgy

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:02 PM

 MrJones, on 05 January 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

11 GIR for a 5 handicap isn't unreasonable at all. Only anecdotal but I hit around that number on most of my decent rounds.
Especially on a shorter course like the op.
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#24 KammaQwazi

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:03 PM

On the positive side, if this is what you consider sandbagging, then your club must have some pretty honorable players in it. I gave up playing tournaments at our home course because "13" handicaps in my flight (I am a 14) were shooting 76-77 both days. I could see one of them possibly getting hot, but half my flight did it.
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#25 Rory4Pres

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:04 PM

 EmperorPenguin, on 04 January 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

We just played a two-day tournament and people are whispering about the low net, a gentleman who played with a course handicap of 5.  The course is about 6400 yards with a course rating of 71 and a slope rating of 131, and we all played the ball down.  For the two rounds, he shot gross 73 (net 68) and 75 (net 70).  People are whispering that this guy is sandbagging, and they are asking me particular questions of his rounds because I was paired up with him on the first day and I witnessed all his shots.  This is what I can report.

Driving distance off the tee: about 240 average.
Fairways hit: I am uncertain.
Greens in regulation: 11
No three-putts and no OB's.

The red flag, to me, is the number of greens he hit.  I don't think 5-cappers hit 11 greens in regulation.  Statistically, how often do 5-cappers hit greens?  Also, what is the probability of 5-cappers to shoot under their handicaps for both days of a two-day tournament?

Sandbagging or good play?

I'm skipping the other opinions so mine is untainted.  I think it's legit good play.  He shot +3 and +1 his handicap, that's nothing crazy, just good play.  It sounds like the putter and irons are just on for him that particular week.

Some people pad their handicap a little so there's a chance he could be an actual 3 handicap or something but overall, I think it's legit.


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#26 augustgolf

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:09 PM

My old boss had a saying:

How well you play when the flag goes up is what determines you as a player.

Or, as Forged4Ever has related many times: there is golf and there is tournament golf.

Playing well when it really matters is one measure of the game. Sounds like this guy has a good measuring stick.
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#27 farmer

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:27 PM

If your player was shooting a gross 68 and 70 as a 5, then the sandbagger comments would be appropriate.  Otherwise, it sounds like he had a couple of good days.

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#28 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:45 PM

Doesn’t sound like any kind of bagging to me. I think when the five goes 66-67 them there might be questions, but not after 73-75.
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#29 br61

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:54 PM

For OP, one more thing to add, make sure he posts those scores to his handicap.

I've noticed, whomever posts their score playing by rules usually do better in the net tournaments than golfers who plays by winter rules, using mulligans and gives themselves putts outside gimme range.
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#30 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:03 PM

What is the course rating and slope

My track, 6600 from the blues .. 73.7, 138 .. I shot 73 as a 5 this summer in one of our major events

I was 6th with a net 68

I see a lot of 81's from 18's it seems

Depends on the course he came from as well ... normally that can really skew how a 5 does when traveling

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